Russia bans Jehovah's Witnesses

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JustPlainLucas

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#1 JustPlainLucas
Member since 2002 • 80243 Posts

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/20/world/europe/russia-bans-jehovahs-witnesses.html?_r=0

Say what you want about them (I was raised as one, but not baptized. My mom is one, though). It's pretty sickening to ban an entire religion. And for the stupidest of all reasons... Jehovah's Witnesses are about as far from extremists as can be. Russia is spiraling backwards farther and further than the U.S. will ever be.

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Jacanuk

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#2  Edited By Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts

@JustPlainLucas said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/20/world/europe/russia-bans-jehovahs-witnesses.html?_r=0

Say what you want about them (I was raised as one, but not baptized. My mom is one, though). It's pretty sickening to ban an entire religion. And for the stupidest of all reasons... Jehovah's Witnesses are about as far from extremists as can be. Russia is spiraling backwards farther and further than the U.S. will ever be.

That is crazy

No idea what drugs that russian supreme court is on, but a extremist group? it´s like calling Russia a democracy.

And good luck getting Russia to accept a verdict from the EU court lol.

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judaspete

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#3 judaspete
Member since 2005 • 5106 Posts

It's so absurd my first reaction was to laugh, but this really is messed up.

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#4  Edited By Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts

@judaspete said:

It's so absurd my first reaction was to laugh, but this really is messed up.

Ya my first reaction was to check the date and look at the website to make sure it wasn´t a april fools joke or i was on a joke site.

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Solaryellow

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#5 Solaryellow
Member since 2013 • 6332 Posts

Do they go door-to-door like in the States? That practice should be banned.

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#6 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts

@Solaryellow said:

Do they go door-to-door like in the States? That practice should be banned.

Why? and yes they do.

It´s in their faith to do that.

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#7 hrt_rulz01
Member since 2006 • 21120 Posts

@Jacanuk: Because they shouldn't try to force their beliefs onto other people...

But yes, it's ridiculous to completely ban it. But what do we expect, it's Russia.

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Solaryellow

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#8 Solaryellow
Member since 2013 • 6332 Posts

@Jacanuk said:
@Solaryellow said:

Do they go door-to-door like in the States? That practice should be banned.

Why? and yes they do.

It´s in their faith to do that.

Soliciting is annoying as hell and in some places (thankfully) it is illegal. People like those in question give religions a very bad name. If Jo Smith is interested in the Witnesses, my guess is he can find them in a few seconds online rather than having people knock on your door and discuss beliefs, leaving propaganda in your door or mailbox, etc..,

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Drunk_PI

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#9 Drunk_PI
Member since 2014 • 3358 Posts

Jehovah's Witnesses are a U.S.-based global religious organization, and they often are targeted by authoritarian and belligerent governments because members don't believe in government authority. They don't vote, serve in the military, salute flags or hail leaders. When the Nazis came to power in Germany, the Witnesses wouldn't use the Nazi salute because, according to their beliefs, it amounted to idolatry. Hitler responded by sending more than 10,000 "Bible Students," as they called themselves then, to prisons and concentration camps, where their pacifism particularly inspired torturers.

LINK for those interested if you can't access the NYT.

Also, the religion is "extreme" in its beliefs which has also met resistance in western Europe.

It's wrong to ban any religion. But considering Russia's nationalistic fervor, it makes sense.

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deactivated-5acfa3a8bc51d

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#10 deactivated-5acfa3a8bc51d
Member since 2005 • 7914 Posts

+1 for Russia -1 for the watchtower in a battle for world domination. +1 for the rest of the religions who can continue to profit in Russia.

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tjandmia

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#11 tjandmia
Member since 2017 • 1112 Posts

I am sure fake president idiot will use this to make a case for eliminating sanctions against his true homeland, Russia.

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N64DD

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#12 N64DD
Member since 2015 • 13167 Posts

I get the feeling Putin had a dart board with different policies and religion and the dart landed on banning this one today.

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#13 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 37399 Posts

@Solaryellow said:

Do they go door-to-door like in the States? That practice should be banned.

yup. we get an old couple every month knocking on our door.

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JustPlainLucas

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#14 JustPlainLucas
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@hrt_rulz01 said:

@Jacanuk: Because they shouldn't try to force their beliefs onto other people...

But yes, it's ridiculous to completely ban it. But what do we expect, it's Russia.

They aren't forcing their beliefs on you. Say you're not interested, and they go away. Simple.

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deactivated-5cf0a2e13dbde

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#15 deactivated-5cf0a2e13dbde
Member since 2005 • 12935 Posts

Progress of a kind? Maybe someday they'll not ban, but stop giving power to the Russian Orthodox Church. It would be hard to calculate how much anti semitism, stupidity and violence has come from that silly hierarchy.

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#16  Edited By raugutcon
Member since 2014 • 5569 Posts

There's a Jehova's witness temple 4 blocks from my mom's home, very politely every week they give us panflets with quotes from the Bible, is this "trying to force their beliefs" on us ? My kids attend to a Catholic school, well, the Bibles my kids have were given to me by them ! not by their school.

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horgen

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#17 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 125706 Posts

Did they bother Putin? Rang the wrong door?

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#18 KOD
Member since 2016 • 2754 Posts

@JustPlainLucas said:
@hrt_rulz01 said:

@Jacanuk: Because they shouldn't try to force their beliefs onto other people...

But yes, it's ridiculous to completely ban it. But what do we expect, it's Russia.

They aren't forcing their beliefs on you. Say you're not interested, and they go away. Simple.

If that worked for you, you're lucky.

I used to tell them i was not religious and didnt believe in any deity but that seemed to spark something in them to where they felt i was in need of saving, so they'd come once a week. They did that for a while. The way i got them to slow down (its been a few months now) is i started telling them i was Jewish. The Jewish thing seems to work better for religious minded folks, they seem to either go with "at least youre not an atheist" or "you killed the lord and savior, i want nothing to do with you". Either way it dramatically reduces the number of nut bags banging on my door.

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#19 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts

@kod:

@kod said:
@JustPlainLucas said:
@hrt_rulz01 said:

@Jacanuk: Because they shouldn't try to force their beliefs onto other people...

But yes, it's ridiculous to completely ban it. But what do we expect, it's Russia.

They aren't forcing their beliefs on you. Say you're not interested, and they go away. Simple.

If that worked for you, you're lucky.

I used to tell them i was not religious and didnt believe in any deity but that seemed to spark something in them to where they felt i was in need of saving, so they'd come once a week. They did that for a while. The way i got them to slow down (its been a few months now) is i started telling them i was Jewish. The Jewish thing seems to work better for religious minded folks, they seem to either go with "at least youre not an atheist" or "you killed the lord and savior, i want nothing to do with you". Either way it dramatically reduces the number of nut bags banging on my door.

Did you try and tell them not to come back? Because if not then you can´t really complain

Also if you really had a couple that would come back every week, despite you telling them not to, you could contact the local church and ask them to take care of it.

Yes it may be annoying for some to go open the door for 2sec once , but then you are also going in rather small shoes.

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#20  Edited By Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts

@drunk_pi said:

Jehovah's Witnesses are a U.S.-based global religious organization, and they often are targeted by authoritarian and belligerent governments because members don't believe in government authority. They don't vote, serve in the military, salute flags or hail leaders. When the Nazis came to power in Germany, the Witnesses wouldn't use the Nazi salute because, according to their beliefs, it amounted to idolatry. Hitler responded by sending more than 10,000 "Bible Students," as they called themselves then, to prisons and concentration camps, where their pacifism particularly inspired torturers.

LINK for those interested if you can't access the NYT.

Also, the religion is "extreme" in its beliefs which has also met resistance in western Europe.

It's wrong to ban any religion. But considering Russia's nationalistic fervor, it makes sense.

Their religion is no more extreme than your local sunday catholic church.

And coming from you , "understanding" the ban is a bit ironic.

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#21 Drunk_PI
Member since 2014 • 3358 Posts

@Jacanuk said:
@drunk_pi said:

Jehovah's Witnesses are a U.S.-based global religious organization, and they often are targeted by authoritarian and belligerent governments because members don't believe in government authority. They don't vote, serve in the military, salute flags or hail leaders. When the Nazis came to power in Germany, the Witnesses wouldn't use the Nazi salute because, according to their beliefs, it amounted to idolatry. Hitler responded by sending more than 10,000 "Bible Students," as they called themselves then, to prisons and concentration camps, where their pacifism particularly inspired torturers.

LINK for those interested if you can't access the NYT.

Also, the religion is "extreme" in its beliefs which has also met resistance in western Europe.

It's wrong to ban any religion. But considering Russia's nationalistic fervor, it makes sense.

Their religion is no more extreme than your local sunday catholic church.

And coming from you , "understanding" the ban is a bit ironic.

Apparently you missed reading "it's wrong to ban any religion." Russia isn't as atheist as everyone likes to claim but the government is very nationalistic in its approach to domestic policies. You also missed when the quote stated that Jehovah's witnesses do not subscribe to the nationalistic fervor of their host country (i.e. don't believe in government authority, vote, serve in military, and so on).

It's a sign that Russia is becoming more and more illiberal by the year by pursuing policies that take away or belittle the rights of others, just as we've seen this happen historically in other illiberal countries.

In no way am I suggesting we sympathize with Russia's ban on Jehovah's witnesses, but at least understand that as a society becomes more illiberal, it starts to ban groups that "oppose" them, from political groups to religious groups such as the Jehovah's witnesses.

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#22  Edited By JustPlainLucas
Member since 2002 • 80243 Posts

@kod said:
@JustPlainLucas said:
@hrt_rulz01 said:

@Jacanuk: Because they shouldn't try to force their beliefs onto other people...

But yes, it's ridiculous to completely ban it. But what do we expect, it's Russia.

They aren't forcing their beliefs on you. Say you're not interested, and they go away. Simple.

If that worked for you, you're lucky.

I used to tell them i was not religious and didnt believe in any deity but that seemed to spark something in them to where they felt i was in need of saving, so they'd come once a week. They did that for a while. The way i got them to slow down (its been a few months now) is i started telling them i was Jewish. The Jewish thing seems to work better for religious minded folks, they seem to either go with "at least youre not an atheist" or "you killed the lord and savior, i want nothing to do with you". Either way it dramatically reduces the number of nut bags banging on my door.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not supposed to pester. I'm sorry if those Witnesses were doing that to you. They're just supposed to knock and spread the word and they come back to those who exhibit interest. When I used to do it with my mom back when I was younger, we didn't waste our time with people who showed no interest, because that was taking time away from us for people who did. As @Jacanuk already mentioned, you can contact their local Kingdom Hall and tell them to stop coming to your door. It sure beats lying to them.

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#23  Edited By LordQuorthon
Member since 2008 • 5803 Posts

Sadly, we're talking about the same Russian government that likes to dance cheek to cheek with the Orthodox Church. But I'll still celebrate this small step towards the only possible religious freedom: Freedom FROM religion.

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JustPlainLucas

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#24 JustPlainLucas
Member since 2002 • 80243 Posts

@LordQuorthon said:

Sadly, we're talking about the same Russian government that likes to dance cheek to cheek with the Orthodox Church. But I'll still celebrate this small step towards the only possible religious freedom: Freedom FROM religion.

This post confuses me. You say you're celebrating the ban of Jehovah's Witnesses because it's a step towards freedom from religion, but then you say the Russian government cozies up to the Orthodox Church? Wouldn't it seem like Russia would be more inclined to order everyone to become Orthodox instead of ultimately banning religion? And even then, when you think it's a good thing for government to ban religion, you are actually welcoming in tyranny.

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#25 LordQuorthon
Member since 2008 • 5803 Posts

@JustPlainLucas said:

you are actually welcoming in tyranny.

Or a dictatorship...

OF THE PROLETARIAT!

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#26 hrt_rulz01
Member since 2006 • 21120 Posts

@JustPlainLucas: I don't understand why they have to "spread the word"... its like they're trying to gather recruits. If that's what they personally want to believe in, that's fine. But why do they have to go around trying to convince others? Seems weird to me.

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#27  Edited By Gaming-Planet
Member since 2008 • 20854 Posts

They ban gay propaganda because they think it's a gateway to pedophila. Don't question their logic.

Russia literally turning pre-soviet era Russia with its orthodox church at the head of the state.

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#28 JustPlainLucas
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@hrt_rulz01 said:

@JustPlainLucas: I don't understand why they have to "spread the word"... its like they're trying to gather recruits. If that's what they personally want to believe in, that's fine. But why do they have to go around trying to convince others? Seems weird to me.

Ministry is not a concept exclusive to Jehovah's Witnesses. It's actually something that's been happening in Christianity for hundreds of years. How are you supposed to have your religion grow if you never tell anyone about it? If no one ministered, religion would simply die off. Jehovah's Witnesses simply are more active in this regard, whereas a lot of Christians forget about spreading the word because they don't want to be ridiculed for it.

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#29  Edited By hrt_rulz01
Member since 2006 • 21120 Posts

@JustPlainLucas said:
@hrt_rulz01 said:

@JustPlainLucas: I don't understand why they have to "spread the word"... its like they're trying to gather recruits. If that's what they personally want to believe in, that's fine. But why do they have to go around trying to convince others? Seems weird to me.

Ministry is not a concept exclusive to Jehovah's Witnesses. It's actually something that's been happening in Christianity for hundreds of years. How are you supposed to have your religion grow if you never tell anyone about it? If no one ministered, religion would simply die off. Jehovah's Witnesses simply are more active in this regard, whereas a lot of Christians forget about spreading the word because they don't want to be ridiculed for it.

Yeah I know it's not exclusive to Jehovah's Witnesses... definitely not saying that. But if someone wants to "follow" a religion, let them "discover" it themselves. People know what's out there, and if not, it's very easy to look it up. Don't need people actively trying to "recruit" others. Who cares if others are following your religion too... if it makes you happy, that's all that matters.

Religion should be a private, personal thing.

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#30 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 51416 Posts

@n64dd said:

I get the feeling Putin had a dart board with different policies and religion and the dart landed on banning this one today.

Nah it's more like this :P

Anyway, yet another example of Russian regression. And to think many in the US idolize Russian politics and Putin.

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#31 LordQuorthon
Member since 2008 • 5803 Posts

@Gaming-Planet said:

They ban gay propaganda because they think it's a gateway to pedophila. Don't question their logic.

Russia literally turning pre-soviet era Russia with its orthodox church at the head of the state.

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#32 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts

@drunk_pi said:
@Jacanuk said:
@drunk_pi said:

Jehovah's Witnesses are a U.S.-based global religious organization, and they often are targeted by authoritarian and belligerent governments because members don't believe in government authority. They don't vote, serve in the military, salute flags or hail leaders. When the Nazis came to power in Germany, the Witnesses wouldn't use the Nazi salute because, according to their beliefs, it amounted to idolatry. Hitler responded by sending more than 10,000 "Bible Students," as they called themselves then, to prisons and concentration camps, where their pacifism particularly inspired torturers.

LINK for those interested if you can't access the NYT.

Also, the religion is "extreme" in its beliefs which has also met resistance in western Europe.

It's wrong to ban any religion. But considering Russia's nationalistic fervor, it makes sense.

Their religion is no more extreme than your local sunday catholic church.

And coming from you , "understanding" the ban is a bit ironic.

Apparently you missed reading "it's wrong to ban any religion." Russia isn't as atheist as everyone likes to claim but the government is very nationalistic in its approach to domestic policies. You also missed when the quote stated that Jehovah's witnesses do not subscribe to the nationalistic fervor of their host country (i.e. don't believe in government authority, vote, serve in military, and so on).

It's a sign that Russia is becoming more and more illiberal by the year by pursuing policies that take away or belittle the rights of others, just as we've seen this happen historically in other illiberal countries.

In no way am I suggesting we sympathize with Russia's ban on Jehovah's witnesses, but at least understand that as a society becomes more illiberal, it starts to ban groups that "oppose" them, from political groups to religious groups such as the Jehovah's witnesses.

No, i didn´t miss your "it´s wrong to ban any religion"

What i meant was that from your normal "anything Trump and republicans do is bad" it was surprising to hear you show some understanding of the other side.

And Russia have always been messed up,

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#33 Kjranu
Member since 2012 • 1791 Posts

Good. Russia is a Slavic Orthodox nation and should be kept that way. The Mormons should be next on the chopping block.

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#34 JustPlainLucas
Member since 2002 • 80243 Posts

@Kjranu said:

Good. Russia is a Slavic Orthodox nation and should be kept that way. The Mormons should be next on the chopping block.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not have the power to convert entire nations. There's only about 8 and a half million Jehovah's Witnesses WORLDWIDE, and they're already hated enough. Russia would NEVER be converted by them. NO country would. Definitely no reason to ban them. Let's just hope whatever government rules you never tells you that you can't practice your own religion

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#35 Kruiz_Bathory
Member since 2009 • 4765 Posts

They're still gonna meet up and do their studies. It'll be harder to preach but that won't stop them.