I really don't get charging children as adults

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/10-year-old-wisconsin-boy-charged-adult-fatal-shooting-mother-amazon-o-rcna59605

A 10-year-old charged as an adult?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason kids don't have adult rights is because they are not mature enough. If they're not mature enough for the rights as adults, how are they mature enough to face the same consequences?

The child clearly murdered his mother with malicious intent. According to the article, the child told one story, but upon being interviewed, he admitted that he did it because he was angry. This child was aware of what he was doing, and to charge him as anything but an adult would be foolishness. Murder is no small thing. A life was taken and the child understood what shooting his mother would do to her. Evil. Just because someone is a child doesn't mean they're ignorant or incapable of doing something heinous. The fact that this is even being put into question is rather sad. Did you even read the article?

I have no sympathy for this kid he sounds like a serial killer anybody that hurts animals should have their knee caps broken.

Normally I would say have mercy but in this case screw that kid. Have fun without an occculus in prison for the next 60 years.

In this case he deserves it. He knew what he was doing. And he doesn't have any remorse for it either. POS.

It depends. Certain cases, i'm sure there is reasoning to take youth into account. In such egregious cases, I think it's more than fair to try children as adults, especially if it's particularly malicious. In this instance, it seems there was pre-meditation with regards to him getting the keys and obtaining the gun.

When I was young, we had the Bulger killers who kidnapped a small boy and tortured him to death. They were released at 18 (IIRC) with new identities, but heavily tracked and obviously no further criminal acts was a strict stipulation.

This punk murdered his mother because she wouldn't buy him a VR headset.

I don't even know what to say...he should definitely be charged with murder.

And burn in hell for killing your mom.

He thinks his life sucked before?...he's fucked now.

I came in here with the intent to write some typical liberal spiel about how kids don't understand consequences sometimes, how he could have undiagnosed mental health issues, and so on and so forth.

But nah, exceptions exist for all things, and this is one of them. This kid deserves prison.

I agree with everyone in this thread.

He seems to have serious issues. Has 5 different imaginary people who talk to him? Long history of rage? Too bad adults couldn't help him with those problems before something like that happened.

Yeah, americans think this 10 year old is "a piece of shit" and should rot in prison. Never mind why the little kid did this.

Would also help if all americans weren't gun-happy morons and have easily attainable guns for their kids to use at home.

It's so hard to not think America is a truly disgusting country when reading stories like this and comments like the ones you guys make. It's like reading opinions of really angry babies who don't understand anything but needs to make angry comments anyway.

I mean, in what situation outside the legal system would a 10-year-old ever be treated as a legal adult?

Any?

Maybe there's a reason for that.

"Nah, let the kid rot! He's evil! Burn in hell!"

Freaking weirdos.

I don't see the public policy problem. Overwhelmingly kids are treated as kids not adults. Extraordinary situations exist. Extraordinary criminal treatment might occassionally be necessary.

I don't know anything about this case and I haven't bothered looking it up, so my response is generic principle based.

What I do know is that serial killers are as much born as they are made. The truly psychopathic kind that simply lack the genes. And I think it is naive to believe every case can be cured or controlled.

Therefore, I believe there are extremely rare circumstances where the criminal justice system needs to defend society from those people in a manner that generally is not appropriate.

I cannot say this is one of those cases, but by principle I cannot rule out the possibility that this is appropriate response.

This is really the crux of the matter. It comes down to whether you believe that prison is primarily for punishment or rehabilitation, whether children are inherently under-developed mentally and have increased odds of rehabilitation as they age, and whether the "children tried as adults" cases are special cases that transcend their underdeveloped status because of some nature over nurture factor.

@mattbbpl: Yep. It is a balance of views and these perspectives themselves change over time.

In Canada we introduced the Young Offenders Act in 1984, in part because gangs were using underage members to commit criminal offences because they could not be tried as adults. So we made a whole strata of young people eligible to be tried as adults.

Probably went a bit overboard on that. So we introduced a replacement Act (Youth Criminal Justice Act) in 2003 to change some aspects. In the two proceeding decades we probably criminalized more youth than necessary and dropped other treatments/programs.

But that still wasn't right, so we revised the new YCJA again in 2013. Why? Because we decided to re-strengthen some aspects to deal with repeat offenders and serious violent offenders.

All the above reinforcing your point that these issues are complex, not clear-cut, have to balance views, and those societal views change over time as society itself changes along with crime.

There are exceptions, and this case seems to fall in line w/ treating the kid as an adult.

That stated, minority kids tend to get harsher sentences than their white counterparts in the U.S.

Which speaks loudly enough to me.

After he apologized for killing his mother, “he then asked if his Amazon package arrived."

I mean, Christ. He obviously has no conceptual capacity to even understand that he’s not going to be going home to enjoy his new toy, but yes, let’s toss this kid to the wolves. 🙄

This child very obviously has not even a clue as to the broader concept, gravitas, and consequences of what he did. That should be immediately apparent by such actions and statements, and I find the posts in here screaming for the kid’s blood to be downright comical. Does he need help? Yes. Should he be tried as an adult?

GTFOutta here with that stuff, guys.

Ten years old.

Me neither. America's lust for punishment is disgusting.

Where you see no conceptual capacity I see capacity with a lack of human connection of any kind. This isn't an infant throwing his toys around, this is a person that made a decision. I regret the entire thing, but as others have pointed out, and to which I agree, the American justice system is about punishment instead of rehabilitation.

It’s a child that made a decision, and in the determination of ascertaining one’s responsibility for their actions, IMO, it’s the ability to conceptualize the scope of their decision to broader considerations that is important. I suspect this kid has probably been playing CoD or GTA and casually thought, “Yeah, that’s an idea if I don’t get my way”. That it’s still more important to him as to whether his VR headset has arrived after he just put a bullet through his mother’s face exemplifies to me that he completely lacks that capacity. He’s not even cognizant to the fact his life is effectively over.

As far as a lack of connection or empathy…..I find that to be a factor more pertinent to the punitive, not as to whether someone is to be determined responsible.

Not to say I think the kid shouldn’t be punished, but I’m more keen at such an age to recommend treatment, not throwing him in the shark tank and tossing aside the key until he’s 70. We seem to keep pushing the younger and younger towards adult accountability, and I’m sorry, that’s just bonkers to me. When are we going to draw the line? We mine as well start stocking our prisons with Huggies and baby food.

Better treat these criminals as adults rather than letting gangs of 12 year olds roam free and terrorize whole towns, because "they are just kids, we can't do anything about it". You want to act like an adult, you'll get treated as one.

Not to single you out or imply you'd support such, but I hope you’d agree this principle would (and should) not apply to sexually active children.

…..and if it can be applied there, I struggle to understand why not elsewhere.

@MirkoS77: You want to broaden the horizons of how this could have happened and then try to blame video games, which is about as narrow as it gets.

What punishment would you administer?

@MirkoS77: Hey, common sense, sweet.

10 year old. And there are other things besides not doing anything and punish them like adults.

Murder is a crime that gets treated harsher than other crimes underage individuals might commit. It should be. It's not a petty event. When a child grows up that the courts have ignored and been lenient with, then everyone screams it's their fault. When they take the crime serioulsy, it's their fault. Honestly, there is no winning with some of you.

I’m not blaming video games, that’s reductionist, and if that’s what you’re taking from my post you’re not reading it fully, or at best selectively. Me bringing gaming into the picture is only to highlight the lack of mental capacity a 10 year old operates by in their views and decision making in the world, which is what my argument is predicated upon. It’s how people with diminished or ill developed mental capacity think. They don’t yet understand the consequences of their actions to other people, or in broader context.

Which is exactly why they say after they shoot someone through their head, “oh yeah, gee whiz guys I’m sorry about that…hey, has my VR headset arrived yet?”

At that age and given that statement, I am much more predisposed to believe a lack of development is responsible in lacking the ability to understand the consequences of one’s actions, both to themselves and others, rather than sociopathy or intentional cruelty.

As for punishment, again, for the age, I’m leaning towards rehabilitation rather than long-term punitive measures. Yes, he should be put away until 18 or 21 and given psychiatric treatment and evaluation during that time. But locked up until he’s a geriatric? No, I don’t agree.

@Litchie: nice to see someone else agrees.

I‘m curious where these people will draw the line. Age 7? 5? 3? And if so why, because I don’t think their arguments would be much different from mine.

I thought this post would be about buffet restaurants charging children the adult price when they’re above a certain height.

It's clear that psychiatric care is better for this kid than prison. For most criminals that's true. Most people who commit crimes aren't evil. Usually there's some issue behind: mental health, poverty etc. These people need help more than prison. Prisons only create more criminals.

And in Finland under 15 is not criminally responsible. They are directed to social care to get the help they need.

when i was young my siblings and i were always small so may parents would have us lie about our ages to get cheaper admission into things like movies or amusement parks :)

@comp_atkins: Believe me your parents were not the only ones! I’m sure most parents (my mum) tried the same trick! I think this is why they have the height charts!

I disagree when you say he didn't understand the consequences. On the contraryhHe was meticulous rather than, ooops I accidentally shot my mom.

I remember reading about that one, absolutely horrifying. These are the types of people for which capital punishment should be brought back. Not for vengeance, but for the safety of the community. Those people will never be anything but a liability to everyone else in society.

@SUD123456

"What I do know is that serial killers are as much born as they are made. The truly psychopathic kind that simply lack the genes. And I think it is naive to believe every case can be cured or controlled."

Bingo. All we can shoot for as a society is to minimize this behavior as much as possible. It's incredibly naïve to think it can be 100% eliminated.

Merseyside was my area. I was born and raised in Warrington between Liverpool and Manchester. It was genuinely horrific, and I can't say if psychological rehabilitation could ever help them.

I've personally been questioned by police with regards to a murder, as I wrote a witness statement in high school with regard to a fight I witnessed (no choice) and one of the individuals went on to break into an elderly persons home to steal money and stabbed him through the eye with a screwdriver. He then went on the next day to buy a new pair of trainers.

Sometimes you just kinda see shit and it's hard to know where you fall.

Then can you answer my question, because no one else has.

At what age do you oppose incarceration of people as adults? And on what basis? Because I can move five years down from ten to only five years old. Charge as an adult?

Yes or no, and why or why not?

Yes.

If you are asking about charging minors as adults and thus incarcerating them, in my opinion there isn't a specific age, per se. Can you find a five year old who did something bad? Sure. Are you likely to find a five year old as methodical as the kid (adult) in question? Mentally and physically I'd say no. Possible? Yes. Probable? No. Those methodical actions are what you need to focus on rather than merely age.

That’s lunacy. Even infants can begin to connect the dots that one action leads to another and that steps need to be taken in order to achieve an outcome. That is wholly different from someone holding the emotional and psychological maturity to understand how those actions affect others and themselves, which is what you need to focus on in the determination of responsibility instead of simple methodology.

While everyone is different in their growth, as a general rule, around 13-15 is the age where I believe children begin to conceptualize the broader implications and ramifications of their actions in the world. That is around the age responsibility should wager, and even then, concessions should be made due to their youth.

America is insane in throwing babies into prison.

Perhaps you can be so kind as to show an infant as methodical as the kid in question since you have lowered the bar to a five year old and now an infant.

While YOU may believe 13-15 is the age in which kids understand their actions, there have been many younger kids who have proven other wise.

I fundamentally disagree with the presupposition you are launching the premise of your argument from, that methodology in one’s actions are indicative of the broader responsibility of them.

By your reasoning, any killing that lacks methodology lacks responsibility, which is absurd, as there are murders that are spontaneous and take place in the heat of the moment. Are you implying they are not responsible because they lack this factor you’re predicating responsibility upon?

Simply because someone is able to understand that X—>Y—>Z does not mean they conceptualize the broader ramifications. Especially (for the third time) when they question whether their new VR headset has arrived in the mail after splattering their mother’s brains all over the wall. What more is required to understand that this child has absolutely NO concept as to what he just did?

You folks are in loony land with this shit.