Why do socialists...

tend to dislike capitalism so much? Or at least tout anti-capitalist rhetoric?

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't capitalism the thing that makes socialism work in the first place? Without those evil corporations and rich people...who will pay the lionshare of the costs of socialist programs?

Because the thing is...not matter how much you try to disort things, Sweden, Canada etc etc... are fundamentally capitalist in the way the economy fuctions. There is always some goverment interference, even in Hong Kong, but in the end it's capitalism that makes things tick. Also...consider Singapore, Australia, Canada, Switzerland, New Zealand, and Hong Kong. (all extremely wealthy places with high living standards btw)Those are all countries with lots of socialistic programs, but they're arguably the freest economies in the world. Even Scandanavian countries would be considered in the top 20.

So...socialists...why the hate*? Why can't we be bros and work together in what places we can? Can we at least team up against the commies? (who still exist and are numerous btw)

* and no i'm not saying that all socialists despise capitalism

And no I don't want to get a huge argument going here.

Also note, I use socialist vaguely and to describe someone in favor of a highly comprehensive wellfare state. I.E. most people that call themselves 'socialists'. And belive me, there are alot of those people.

And please think about what i've said before you post

They just don't want to admit that their little socialist or communist country is even a little capitalistic. Capitalism is bad bad bad.

If China were truly a communist country... Wouldn't there be no one in charge?

Vocabulary is very important.

Socialism, by very definition, is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly owned. The opposite of this is capitalism, in which the means of production are privately owned. These two systems are inherently incompatible in the strictest sense of the terms - so obviously self-avowed socialists, assuming they know what socialism is, will be opposed to capitalism. There are currently no completely capitalist systems and no socialist nations either. (save a few third world exceptions) Most western economies fall somewhere within the two, leaning a bit towards capitalism. I am under the impression that many communists see socialism as a means of achieving communism. Advocating for more gov't intervention in certain areas is not the same as advocating socialism per se.

They just don't want to admit that their little socialist or communist country is even a little capitalistic. Capitalism is bad bad bad.

If China were truly a communist country... Wouldn't there be no one in charge?

gotdangit

Vocabulary is very important.

Socialism, by very definition, is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly owned. The opposite of this is capitalism, in which the means of production are privately owned. These two systems are inherently incompatible in the strictest sense of the terms - so obviously self-avowed socialists, assuming they know what socialism is, will be opposed to capitalism. There are currently no completely capitalist systems and no socialist nations either. (save a few third world exceptions) Most western economies fall somewhere within the two, leaning a bit towards capitalism. I am under the impression that many communists see socialism as a means of achieving communism. Advocating for more gov't intervention in certain areas is not the same as advocating socialism per se.

coolbeans90

Call it what you want. I can change it to welfare state if you want. It seems unfair to call them that though, especially a place like Singapore.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Vocabulary is very important.

Socialism, by very definition, is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly owned. The opposite of this is capitalism, in which the means of production are privately owned. These two systems are inherently incompatible in the strictest sense of the terms - so obviously self-avowed socialists, assuming they know what socialism is, will be opposed to capitalism. There are currently no completely capitalist systems and no socialist nations either. (save a few third world exceptions) Most western economies fall somewhere within the two, leaning a bit towards capitalism. I am under the impression that many communists see socialism as a means of achieving communism. Advocating for more gov't intervention in certain areas is not the same as advocating socialism per se.

Storm_Marine

Call it what you want.

What is "it"?

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Vocabulary is very important.

Socialism, by very definition, is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly owned. The opposite of this is capitalism, in which the means of production are privately owned. These two systems are inherently incompatible in the strictest sense of the terms - so obviously self-avowed socialists, assuming they know what socialism is, will be opposed to capitalism. There are currently no completely capitalist systems and no socialist nations either. (save a few third world exceptions) Most western economies fall somewhere within the two, leaning a bit towards capitalism. I am under the impression that many communists see socialism as a means of achieving communism. Advocating for more gov't intervention in certain areas is not the same as advocating socialism per se.

coolbeans90

Call it what you want.

What is "it"?

Tax funded healthcare, social safety net, those kinds of things. Aspects of socialism, yet funded by capitalism.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Vocabulary is very important.

Socialism, by very definition, is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly owned. The opposite of this is capitalism, in which the means of production are privately owned. These two systems are inherently incompatible in the strictest sense of the terms - so obviously self-avowed socialists, assuming they know what socialism is, will be opposed to capitalism. There are currently no completely capitalist systems and no socialist nations either. (save a few third world exceptions) Most western economies fall somewhere within the two, leaning a bit towards capitalism. I am under the impression that many communists see socialism as a means of achieving communism. Advocating for more gov't intervention in certain areas is not the same as advocating socialism per se.

Storm_Marine

Call it what you want. I can change it to welfare state if you want. It seems unfair to call them that though, especially a place like Singapore.

The answer to your question would be that some advocates of an increased welfare state are socialists or noticeably closer to it than capitalism (or the status quo, even), and by definition are more prone to be opposed to capitalism. Of course, there are those who fall in between.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't capitalism the thing that makes socialism work in the first place? Without those evil corporations and rich people...who will pay the lionshare of the costs of socialist programs?

Storm_Marine

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

Call it what you want.

Storm_Marine

What is "it"?

Tax funded healthcare, social safety net, those kinds of things. Aspects of socialism, yet funded by capitalism.

As for the means of production, in these wealthy western countries they are overwhelmingly in private hands. There are exceptions- 'crown corporations' as we call them in Canada- exist. but still...

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't capitalism the thing that makes socialism work in the first place? Without those evil corporations and rich people...who will pay the lionshare of the costs of socialist programs?

ghoklebutter

Socialistic programs then. :x That's what I meant in the first place.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Vocabulary is very important.

Socialism, by very definition, is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly owned. The opposite of this is capitalism, in which the means of production are privately owned. These two systems are inherently incompatible in the strictest sense of the terms - so obviously self-avowed socialists, assuming they know what socialism is, will be opposed to capitalism. There are currently no completely capitalist systems and no socialist nations either. (save a few third world exceptions) Most western economies fall somewhere within the two, leaning a bit towards capitalism. I am under the impression that many communists see socialism as a means of achieving communism. Advocating for more gov't intervention in certain areas is not the same as advocating socialism per se.

coolbeans90

Call it what you want. I can change it to welfare state if you want. It seems unfair to call them that though, especially a place like Singapore.

The answer to your question would be that some advocates of an increased welfare state are socialists or noticeably closer to it than capitalism (or the status quo, even), and by definition are more prone to be opposed to capitalism. Of course, there are those who fall in between.

[/QUOTE

I use socialist in the broadest possible sense.

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't capitalism the thing that makes socialism work in the first place? Without those evil corporations and rich people...who will pay the lionshare of the costs of socialist programs?

Storm_Marine

Socialistic programs then. :x That's what I meant in the first place.

As for the means of production, in these wealthy western countries they are overwhelmingly in private hands. There are exceptions- 'crown corporations' as we call them in Canada- exist. but still...

Storm_Marine

As I said, most (all, actually) western nations are somewhere in between, but leaning closer to capitalism than socialism. Do keep in mind, however, that gov't contribution to GDP is still rather sizeable and gov't does exert some level of control via regulations.

I can't say I actually see too many people say Capitalism is terrible or anything. Some people believe that completely free capitalism is just as bad as anything other extreme system though and that certain aspects need regulation to prevent monopolies and to ensure worker and public safety. I mean I'm pretty liberal and I think capitalism works pretty damn good for the most part. Ace6301

Why am I bombarded with anti capitalist crap then? I walk down the f ucking street and I see people chanting and holding signs sayings 'down with capitalism! (paraphrasing)

And...what I hate most of all, Che and anti capitalist T shirts manufactured, sold, and bought through the virtues of capitalism....

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

As for the means of production, in these wealthy western countries they are overwhelmingly in private hands. There are exceptions- 'crown corporations' as we call them in Canada- exist. but still...

coolbeans90

As I said, most (all, actually) western nations are somewhere in between, but leaning closer to capitalism than socialism. Do keep in mind, however, that gov't contribution to GDP is still rather sizeable and gov't does exert some level of control via regulations.

Yes but it's not what makes the economy move. It's mostly money spent on those formentioned programs. And, if your central bank is not creating huge sums out of nothing, then all that money the gov spends is coming from taxes on private capitalist activity or from bonds sold to capitalist investors.

[QUOTE="Ace6301"]I can't say I actually see too many people say Capitalism is terrible or anything. Some people believe that completely free capitalism is just as bad as anything other extreme system though and that certain aspects need regulation to prevent monopolies and to ensure worker and public safety. I mean I'm pretty liberal and I think capitalism works pretty damn good for the most part. Storm_Marine

Why am I bombarded with anti capitalist crap then? I walk down the f ucking street and I see people chanting and holding signs sayings 'down with capitalism! (paraphrasing)

And...what I hate most of all, Che and anti capitalist T shirts manufactured, sold, and bought through the virtues of capitalism....

Call it what you want. I can change it to welfare state if you want. It seems unfair to call them that though, especially a place like Singapore.

Storm_Marine

My country Singapore is turning into a corprate country run by the majority party. we even have a holdings for our "interest" which so far led us publicly in debt (with our tax paying money) with billions of losses invested in obscure places and countries. too add that the salary have been stagnated for a very long time dispite very high GDP numbers.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="Ace6301"]I can't say I actually see too many people say Capitalism is terrible or anything. Some people believe that completely free capitalism is just as bad as anything other extreme system though and that certain aspects need regulation to prevent monopolies and to ensure worker and public safety. I mean I'm pretty liberal and I think capitalism works pretty damn good for the most part. Ace6301

Why am I bombarded with anti capitalist crap then? I walk down the f ucking street and I see people chanting and holding signs sayings 'down with capitalism! (paraphrasing)

And...what I hate most of all, Che and anti capitalist T shirts manufactured, sold, and bought through the virtues of capitalism....

Next door in Alberta... I pay close attention to global politcs (especially American) and i'm seriously getting those vibes. I'm glad that you aren't. I wish i could ignore it. And seriously, even on OT there are some people that make me ...scared.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

Call it what you want. I can change it to welfare state if you want. It seems unfair to call them that though, especially a place like Singapore.

punkpunker

My country Singapore is turning into a corprate country run by the majority party. we even have a holdings for our "interest" which so far led us publicly in debt (with our tax paying money) with billions of losses invested in obscure places and countries. too add that the salary have been stagnated for a very long time dispite very high GDP numbers.

You've still got one of the highest standards of living in the world. Where do you want to move to....next door to Malaysia? Or would you prefer Indonesia or Thailand? Be thankful that corporations and banking have made your country what it is.

Why do i get the feeling you're an ungrateful douche? No country is perfect, but still.....

Yes but it's not what makes the economy move. It's mostly money spent on those formentioned programs. And, if your central bank is not creating huge sums out of nothing, then all that money the gov spends is coming from taxes on private capitalist activity or from bonds sold to capitalist investors.

Storm_Marine

Gov't spending does increase the drive for consumption, which in turn increases production, and the gov't runs services like utilities, roads, schools etcs. - which do contribute, tangibly, to economic production. Perhaps this is done less efficiently than it otherwise would if handled by private mechanisms, but nevertheless it does account for those functions.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

Yes but it's not what makes the economy move. It's mostly money spent on those formentioned programs. And, if your central bank is not creating huge sums out of nothing, then all that money the gov spends is coming from taxes on private capitalist activity or from bonds sold to capitalist investors.

coolbeans90

Gov't spending does increase the drive for consumption, which in turn increases production, and the gov't runs services like utilities, roads, schools etcs. - which do contribute, tangibly, to economic production. Perhaps this is done less efficiently than it otherwise would if handled by private mechanisms, but nevertheless it does account for those functions.

Like i said, most of that money the goverment is spending is coming from private consumption and production that already took place they're just throwing it back in.

Unless, like i said, they're injecting huge amounts of new currency into the economy.

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

Why am I bombarded with anti capitalist crap then? I walk down the f ucking street and I see people chanting and holding signs sayings 'down with capitalism! (paraphrasing)

And...what I hate most of all, Che and anti capitalist T shirts manufactured, sold, and bought through the virtues of capitalism....

Storm_Marine

Next door in Alberta... I pay close attention to global politcs (especially American) and i'm seriously getting those vibes. I'm glad that you aren't. I wish i could ignore it. And seriously, even on OT there are some people that make me ...scared.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="Ace6301"] Where the hell do you live to be "bombarded" by this stuff? I mean I live in BC and it's pretty goddamn liberal here and even the occupy movement in Vancouver didn't have anything like that. Also you can't honestly be serious is you think Che Shirts actually are anything other than fashion.Ace6301

Next door in Alberta... I pay close attention to global politcs (especially American) and i'm seriously getting those vibes. I'm glad that you aren't. I wish i could ignore it. And seriously, even on OT there are some people that make me ...scared.

Like I said, I envy you for that.

You've still got one of the highest standards of living in the world. Where do you want to move to....next door to Malaysia? Or would you prefer Indonesia or Thailand? Be thankful that corporations and banking have made your country what it is.

Storm_Marine

true about that we have a high standard of living but it has been declining since the past 2 decade, its an illusion created by the majority party to invite foreigners to our country which is mostly unwanted ones like the mainland chinese and east asians looking for "greener pastures". fact that 60% of the workforce is foreigners and is creating a tension because of our scarce of land and overcrowding.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="Ace6301"] Where the hell do you live to be "bombarded" by this stuff? I mean I live in BC and it's pretty goddamn liberal here and even the occupy movement in Vancouver didn't have anything like that. Also you can't honestly be serious is you think Che Shirts actually are anything other than fashion.Ace6301

Next door in Alberta... I pay close attention to global politcs (especially American) and i'm seriously getting those vibes. I'm glad that you aren't. I wish i could ignore it. And seriously, even on OT there are some people that make me ...scared.

Oh and a quick point. That's not the way a free market should be. Goverment should be impartial to this stuff, not be swayable, and not be able to sway the markets. I find with too much goverment intervention, companies find it easier to lobby the goverment for advantages than to compete fairly in a competitive market.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

You've still got one of the highest standards of living in the world. Where do you want to move to....next door to Malaysia? Or would you prefer Indonesia or Thailand? Be thankful that corporations and banking have made your country what it is.

punkpunker

true about that we have a high standard of living but it has been declining since the past 2 decade, its an illusion created by the majority party to invite foreigners to our country which is mostly unwanted ones like the mainland chinese and east asians looking for "greener pastures". fact that 60% of the workforce is foreigners and is creating a tension because of our scarce of land and overcrowding.

I'm away of Singapore's problems. But...I don't belive your standard of living has been declining...maybe your real income relative to other wealthy countries but as for real lifestyle...hasn't technology, medicine, etc improved alot since the early 90's? Not to mention the internet.

[QUOTE="punkpunker"]

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

You've still got one of the highest standards of living in the world. Where do you want to move to....next door to Malaysia? Or would you prefer Indonesia or Thailand? Be thankful that corporations and banking have made your country what it is.

Storm_Marine

true about that we have a high standard of living but it has been declining since the past 2 decade, its an illusion created by the majority party to invite foreigners to our country which is mostly unwanted ones like the mainland chinese and east asians looking for "greener pastures". fact that 60% of the workforce is foreigners and is creating a tension because of our scarce of land and overcrowding.

I'm away of Singapore's problems. But...I don't belive your standard of living has been declining...maybe your real income relative to other wealthy countries but as for real lifestyle...hasn't technology, medicine, etc improved alot since the early 90's? Not to mention the internet.

And immigration laws are kind of a separate issue. Maybe your right about it, at the same time your unemployment is low, and your birthrate is...devastatingly low.

They want the whole world to be better off but they don't realize that capitalism is what has made all of the top countries in the world as good as they are.

There are ALWAYS going to be poor people. This is a fact of life. You can either have everyone be poor such as in a socialist system or have only the bottom portion of the population be poor in a capitalist system.

Economics is all about scarcity. We only have a limited number of resources on Earth and a population that is growing exponentially. Why are there so many people who aren't capable of understanding that in America we have it pretty damn well off. Instead they'd rather complain and ask for more handouts. It's a joke. Vuurk

1. You're kidding, right? It has significantly exacerbated income inequality, among many other things. That's hardly something I see resulting from a good system.

2. Socialism does not necessarily entailmaking everyone poor - at least I believe so, because any system based on treating everyone exactly the same is deeply flawed. Equality of opportunity is the way to go.

3. Which is why a system of wealth distribution is so important. I don't think you understand how crucial those "handouts" are to countless people in America. It may be more well-off than some other countries, but the status quo has some glaring problems.

That's all I have to say.

Like i said, most of that money the goverment is spending is coming from private consumption and production that already took place they're just throwing it back in.

Unless, like i said, they're injecting huge amounts of new currency into the economy.

Storm_Marine

Yes, much of the gov'ts funding does, in point of fact, come from taxation of the private sector. That is how governments in mixed market economies function. That taxation is then used to purchase or produce other sh!t. The amount of which the gov't takes out fo the economy/spends on other things is roughly equivalent to how much of the means of production is controlled by it. It is a little more nuanced than that, though, as what the gov't does with the money isn't always directly controlling those whom they purchase it from; alternatively it creates demand in areas where there there otherwise wouldn't be. Moreover, regulations add quite a layer of gov't control over the means of production. Nonetheless, markets and private ownership are still relevant under these scenarios, even if altered.

At times, however, the gov't does pump money into the economy in order to counter recessions and deflation.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

Like i said, most of that money the goverment is spending is coming from private consumption and production that already took place they're just throwing it back in.

Unless, like i said, they're injecting huge amounts of new currency into the economy.

coolbeans90

Yes, much of the gov'ts funding does, in point of fact, come from taxation of the private sector. That is how governments in mixed market economies function. That taxation is then used to purchase or produce other sh!t. The amount of which the gov't takes out fo the economy/spends on other things is roughly equivalent to how much of the means of production is controlled by it. It is a little more nuanced than that, though, as what the gov't does with the money isn't always directly controlling those whom they purchase it from; alternatively it creates demand in areas where there there otherwise wouldn't be. Moreover, regulations add quite a layer of gov't control over the means of production. Nonetheless, markets and private ownership are still relevant under these scenarios, even if altered.

At times, however, the gov't does pump money into the economy in order to counter recessions and deflation.

i know i know, there's nothing more for me to say, we've gone slightly off topic

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

Next door in Alberta... I pay close attention to global politcs (especially American) and i'm seriously getting those vibes. I'm glad that you aren't. I wish i could ignore it. And seriously, even on OT there are some people that make me ...scared.

Storm_Marine

Oh and a quick point. That's not the way a free market should be. Goverment should be impartial to this stuff, not be swayable, and not be able to sway the markets. I find with too much goverment intervention, companies find it easier to lobby the goverment for advantages than to compete fairly in a competitive market.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Yes, much of the gov'ts funding does, in point of fact, come from taxation of the private sector. That is how governments in mixed market economies function. That taxation is then used to purchase or produce other sh!t. The amount of which the gov't takes out fo the economy/spends on other things is roughly equivalent to how much of the means of production is controlled by it. It is a little more nuanced than that, though, as what the gov't does with the money isn't always directly controlling those whom they purchase it from; alternatively it creates demand in areas where there there otherwise wouldn't be. Moreover, regulations add quite a layer of gov't control over the means of production. Nonetheless, markets and private ownership are still relevant under these scenarios, even if altered.

At times, however, the gov't does pump money into the economy in order to counter recessions and deflation.

Storm_Marine

i know i know, there's nothing more for me to say, we've gone slightly off topic

It was fun, though.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="Ace6301"] I also pay close attention to global politics and I can't say I've noticed it outside the occupy movement which has been highjacked by morons at this point. It seems to me the sentiment isn't so much capitalism as much as it is being anti big business. Certain corporations and banking groups do have a fairly heavy swing in certain countries and it's affected their laws and actions as of late. Perfect example being the US threatening Canada, Spain and Sweden to comply to the US' copyright laws or else trade would be cut, all because certain entertainment groups have thrown money at the government to have them do that. Ace6301

Oh and a quick point. That's not the way a free market should be. Goverment should be impartial to this stuff, not be swayable, and not be able to sway the markets. I find with too much goverment intervention, companies find it easier to lobby the goverment for advantages than to compete fairly in a competitive market.

What about how politicans and goverments accept those payouts?

This is simply the human condition. No political or economic system run by flawed humans can fix the problems created by flawed humans.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="Ace6301"] I also pay close attention to global politics and I can't say I've noticed it outside the occupy movement which has been highjacked by morons at this point. It seems to me the sentiment isn't so much capitalism as much as it is being anti big business. Certain corporations and banking groups do have a fairly heavy swing in certain countries and it's affected their laws and actions as of late. Perfect example being the US threatening Canada, Spain and Sweden to comply to the US' copyright laws or else trade would be cut, all because certain entertainment groups have thrown money at the government to have them do that. Ace6301

Oh and a quick point. That's not the way a free market should be. Goverment should be impartial to this stuff, not be swayable, and not be able to sway the markets. I find with too much goverment intervention, companies find it easier to lobby the goverment for advantages than to compete fairly in a competitive market.

What about how politicans and goverments accept those payouts?

This is simply the human condition. No political or economic system run by flawed humans can fix the problems created by flawed humans.

And even as a free market capitalist, i don't think that free market capitalism can or will solve all the worlds problems. There is always going to be s hit. It's simply about minimizing it, in a moral way, without forcing people's hands.

I'm away of Singapore's problems. But...I don't belive your standard of living has been declining...maybe your real income relative to other wealthy countries but as for real lifestyle...hasn't technology, medicine, etc improved alot since the early 90's? Not to mention the internet.

Storm_Marine

yeah, the internet here is slow dispite i paid for a 100MBps internet speed, i know that having a 100MBps does not mean i will get a minimum speed. but eveything here cost money even 600ml cola cost a 1.80 chilled or 1.20 non chilled where as the msrp is 80 cents. now the currency rate today is 1 USD for 1.2 SGD so do a math.

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

Oh and a quick point. That's not the way a free market should be. Goverment should be impartial to this stuff, not be swayable, and not be able to sway the markets. I find with too much goverment intervention, companies find it easier to lobby the goverment for advantages than to compete fairly in a competitive market.

Storm_Marine

What about how politicans and goverments accept those payouts?

This is simply the human condition. No political or economic system run by flawed humans can fix the problems created by flawed humans.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

I'm away of Singapore's problems. But...I don't belive your standard of living has been declining...maybe your real income relative to other wealthy countries but as for real lifestyle...hasn't technology, medicine, etc improved alot since the early 90's? Not to mention the internet.

punkpunker

yeah, the internet here is slow dispite i paid for a 100MBps internet speed, i know that having a 100MBps does not mean i will get a minimum speed. but eveything here cost money even 600ml cola cost a 1.80 chilled or 1.20 non chilled where as the msrp is 80 cents. now the currency rate today is 1 USD for 1.2 SGD so do a math.

If you only knew how slow it was here in Canada. But hey, we can't all live in Seoul...

And heck, at least we have the internet. That's more than most North Koreans could say.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="Ace6301"] The issue being that the growing sentiment is more anti corporation as I said. The fact these guys are willing to pay governments off into bullying other sovereign nations to get their goals has caused some pretty heavy ire. Ace6301

What about how politicans and goverments accept those payouts?

This is simply the human condition. No political or economic system run by flawed humans can fix the problems created by flawed humans.

F uck lobbying. Make it illegal. It's absurd. Build a wall between private busines and goverment. A wall with a small small gate.

[QUOTE="punkpunker"]

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

I'm away of Singapore's problems. But...I don't belive your standard of living has been declining...maybe your real income relative to other wealthy countries but as for real lifestyle...hasn't technology, medicine, etc improved alot since the early 90's? Not to mention the internet.

Storm_Marine

yeah, the internet here is slow dispite i paid for a 100MBps internet speed, i know that having a 100MBps does not mean i will get a minimum speed. but eveything here cost money even 600ml cola cost a 1.80 chilled or 1.20 non chilled where as the msrp is 80 cents. now the currency rate today is 1 USD for 1.2 SGD so do a math.

If you only knew how slow it was here in Canada. But hey, we can't all live in Seoul...

And heck, at least we have the internet. That's more than most North Koreans could say.

Oh and there are alot of unique advantages that Americans kind of take for granted. Lots of sh it costs way more in Canada than it does in America.

America's....special. But that's a complicated story.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

Call it what you want.

Storm_Marine

What is "it"?

Tax funded healthcare, social safety net, those kinds of things. Aspects of socialism, yet funded by capitalism.

There is no capitalism. What passes these days as capitalism is really corny state capitalism. I love it when the biggest socialist party in America keeps bashing it's own ideology.

There is no capitalism. What passes these days as capitalism is really corny state capitalism. I love it when the biggest socialist party in America keeps bashing it's own ideology.

EasyStreet