The Morality of Piracy

respost as this forum is better suited than General Games, since piracy extends beyond games.

Also note: Do not admit to doing piracy, regardless of whether or not you do it. This will simply get you modded. Feel free to post what you feel about the issue, but not that you have partaken in Piracy, assuming you have.

I know that piracy.. or Intellectual Property Theft as it's known these days, is something that gets discussed fairly often. But I've seen it toned down these last few months, and it's not something I think should fade away. Complacency on matters like this leads the way to political manipulation of laws and I don't think that should happen.

I'll start by making my opinion clear on the matter: I don't pirate. However, I'm against many many laws that are in favor of defending IP theft, for a variety of reasons. The most important of which is internet management - I do not believe any ISP should have the power to shut down internet, throttle it, or even look at it. I don't care how illegal what someone is doing is, no ISP should have that right. The reasons are obvious. Beyond simply privacy, and it assuming I'm a criminal, it paves the way for bigger issues. I'm going to use one that's currently in effect. I use Bell Sympatico, and they have an online video service. So does rival Internet/TV provider Rogers. Bell Sympatico currently throttles Roger's video service - and many others - but not their own.

To me, this is disgusting to the biggest degree. Now, I don't want to turn this into a net neutrality debate, though obviously they're interconnected. But rather I'm going to bring up a few questions I'd like to get your opinions on, because they're areas where I personally have conflicting thoughts.



The first, I'll start with a non-game DVD situation. I recently had the chance to view season 1 of the show 24. I enjoyed it immensly, and coincidentally seasons 1-5 were on sale for 20$. I picked them all up.

Over a month later, I got to 24. Disk 2 of it did not work, at all. As it was 30 days after purchase, and the case was open. I could not get a refund. Do you think it would be right or wrong for me to download those 4 episodes (Note, the point is mute as I borrowed it from a friend, but assume for a moment I could not do that and the choice was to either purchase it again, or download illegally)? If you assume it's right even if technically illegal, would you also think it was okay if I downloaded high definition versions of the show, even though I did not purchase it in HD?


Now, another example. Say I purchased a video game, and it was released online early. Would it be okay for me to download the game and play it - when I legally bought it - early? Does it not seem fair that someone who paid should be able to play as soon as possible, especially considering that people who DON'T pay are the ones who get to play early? If you think it's wrong, what would you think about downloading the files but not playing until release, so you could avoid a lengthy download / visit to the store in the future?


How about the music genre. When you buy a game like Guitar Hero, part of the money is going to the licensing to listen to the songs in the game. You are paying for the songs. Does that make it okay or wrong, in your eyes, to download them to your computer?


Another thing that bothers me about this is that there is a fee when you buy blank DVD/CDs that goes to pay various music and video industries, due to how they can be used for piracy. You ARE paying for a crime, regardless of whether or not you committed. this is another thing that sickens me. Morally, I don't feel bad at all when people download music illegally, because of this. I am paying them, and I am being treated as a criminal. Why should I feel bad about downloading songs, then, since I *am* paying for them? Note that I don't do this, anyway, but this is the point of my thread. The shades of gray and conflicting thoughts.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Let me know.

I think there's a big problem that people are still trying to figure out how the hell to deal with Internet piracy. The problem is that, because of how torrents work, it's extremely difficult to catch anyone. There's a reason why most industries don't bother.

And, I do think things like throttling connection/implementing download limits are not fair. The limits would have to be fairly high to avoid infringing on people who just like doing things like watching youtube videos or even downloading files legally, and so would only cause problems for people who download many, many gigabytes illegally. And even then, they'd just cut back a little, or maybe collaborate with friends to exchange the files (you can get a 16GB USB Drive, well enough to hold large amounts of music, basically any game ISO, multiple movies, etc. for easy transfer from one computer to another). Trust me, as someone who has to transfer my music (which is over 15GB, all legally obtained :)) from my desktop to my laptop and vice versa every so often, it really takes very little time to do. In essence, I can't see download limits being much of a solution, while they would certainly be a nuisance.

respost as this forum is better suited than General Games, since piracy extends beyond games.

Also note: Do not admit to doing piracy, regardless of whether or not you do it. This will simply get you modded. Feel free to post what you feel about the issue, but not that you have partaken in Piracy, assuming you have.

I know that piracy.. or Intellectual Property Theft as it's known these days, is something that gets discussed fairly often. But I've seen it toned down these last few months, and it's not something I think should fade away. Complacency on matters like this leads the way to political manipulation of laws and I don't think that should happen.

I'll start by making my opinion clear on the matter: I don't pirate. However, I'm against many many laws that are in favor of defending IP theft, for a variety of reasons. The most important of which is internet management - I do not believe any ISP should have the power to shut down internet, throttle it, or even look at it. I don't care how illegal what someone is doing is, no ISP should have that right. The reasons are obvious. Beyond simply privacy, and it assuming I'm a criminal, it paves the way for bigger issues. I'm going to use one that's currently in effect. I use Bell Sympatico, and they have an online video service. So does rival Internet/TV provider Rogers. Bell Sympatico currently throttles Roger's video service - and many others - but not their own.

To me, this is disgusting to the biggest degree. Now, I don't want to turn this into a net neutrality debate, though obviously they're interconnected. But rather I'm going to bring up a few questions I'd like to get your opinions on, because they're areas where I personally have conflicting thoughts.



The first, I'll start with a non-game DVD situation. I recently had the chance to view season 1 of the show 24. I enjoyed it immensly, and coincidentally seasons 1-5 were on sale for 20$. I picked them all up.

Over a month later, I got to 24. Disk 2 of it did not work, at all. As it was 30 days after purchase, and the case was open. I could not get a refund. Do you think it would be right or wrong for me to download those 4 episodes (Note, the point is mute as I borrowed it from a friend, but assume for a moment I could not do that and the choice was to either purchase it again, or download illegally)? If you assume it's right even if technically illegal, would you also think it was okay if I downloaded high definition versions of the show, even though I did not purchase it in HD?


Now, another example. Say I purchased a video game, and it was released online early. Would it be okay for me to download the game and play it - when I legally bought it - early? Does it not seem fair that someone who paid should be able to play as soon as possible, especially considering that people who DON'T pay are the ones who get to play early? If you think it's wrong, what would you think about downloading the files but not playing until release, so you could avoid a lengthy download / visit to the store in the future?


How about the music genre. When you buy a game like Guitar Hero, part of the money is going to the licensing to listen to the songs in the game. You are paying for the songs. Does that make it okay or wrong, in your eyes, to download them to your computer?


Another thing that bothers me about this is that there is a fee when you buy blank DVD/CDs that goes to pay various music and video industries, due to how they can be used for piracy. You ARE paying for a crime, regardless of whether or not you committed. this is another thing that sickens me. Morally, I don't feel bad at all when people download music illegally, because of this. I am paying them, and I am being treated as a criminal. Why should I feel bad about downloading songs, then, since I *am* paying for them? Note that I don't do this, anyway, but this is the point of my thread. The shades of gray and conflicting thoughts.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Let me know.

PiNwOrM

Im the first example, you knew the return policy when you bought the game. The terms are, no refunds after 30 days. If you simply choose to not try out something that you bought until after that return period has ended, then that's your fault. That return policy benefits you by allowing you to return the game. If you simply choose to not take advantage of that benefit, that doesn't make it okay to commit piracy.

And no, it's not okay to pirate HD content because you purchased a non-HD disc earlier. It's not the same content. The fact that you're even bothering to illegally download the HD version despite owning and having access to the non-HD version shows that in your mind, they're not the same. If you thought that they were the same, then you wouldn't be illegally downloading it in HD when you already had it available in a non-HD form. And now that we agree that you're getting something extra in HD, then ****ing pay for it. Buy it legit.

As far as preordering games and then playing early illegal leaks, that's not better. Was it OFFICIALLY released early online? Or was it an early online leak? If it's an early online leak, then it's still wrong because IT WASN"T SUPPOSED TO BE RELEASED YET. Hell, it might not even be quite DONE yet. Now you play the whole thing before release date, and give the game bad press. Even though you were playing an unfinished and buggy version of the game. Don't even talk to me about how you preordered it. No one made you preorder it. You could have just as well waited until the release date and then bought it legally like most people. And part of the terms of a preorder is that you pay early and get the game when it is released. If it gets illegally "released" before the release date, that doesn't mean it's within the terms of sale to just illegally download the game online.

[QUOTE="PiNwOrM"]

respost as this forum is better suited than General Games, since piracy extends beyond games.

Also note: Do not admit to doing piracy, regardless of whether or not you do it. This will simply get you modded. Feel free to post what you feel about the issue, but not that you have partaken in Piracy, assuming you have.

I know that piracy.. or Intellectual Property Theft as it's known these days, is something that gets discussed fairly often. But I've seen it toned down these last few months, and it's not something I think should fade away. Complacency on matters like this leads the way to political manipulation of laws and I don't think that should happen.

I'll start by making my opinion clear on the matter: I don't pirate. However, I'm against many many laws that are in favor of defending IP theft, for a variety of reasons. The most important of which is internet management - I do not believe any ISP should have the power to shut down internet, throttle it, or even look at it. I don't care how illegal what someone is doing is, no ISP should have that right. The reasons are obvious. Beyond simply privacy, and it assuming I'm a criminal, it paves the way for bigger issues. I'm going to use one that's currently in effect. I use Bell Sympatico, and they have an online video service. So does rival Internet/TV provider Rogers. Bell Sympatico currently throttles Roger's video service - and many others - but not their own.

To me, this is disgusting to the biggest degree. Now, I don't want to turn this into a net neutrality debate, though obviously they're interconnected. But rather I'm going to bring up a few questions I'd like to get your opinions on, because they're areas where I personally have conflicting thoughts.



The first, I'll start with a non-game DVD situation. I recently had the chance to view season 1 of the show 24. I enjoyed it immensly, and coincidentally seasons 1-5 were on sale for 20$. I picked them all up.

Over a month later, I got to 24. Disk 2 of it did not work, at all. As it was 30 days after purchase, and the case was open. I could not get a refund. Do you think it would be right or wrong for me to download those 4 episodes (Note, the point is mute as I borrowed it from a friend, but assume for a moment I could not do that and the choice was to either purchase it again, or download illegally)? If you assume it's right even if technically illegal, would you also think it was okay if I downloaded high definition versions of the show, even though I did not purchase it in HD?


Now, another example. Say I purchased a video game, and it was released online early. Would it be okay for me to download the game and play it - when I legally bought it - early? Does it not seem fair that someone who paid should be able to play as soon as possible, especially considering that people who DON'T pay are the ones who get to play early? If you think it's wrong, what would you think about downloading the files but not playing until release, so you could avoid a lengthy download / visit to the store in the future?


How about the music genre. When you buy a game like Guitar Hero, part of the money is going to the licensing to listen to the songs in the game. You are paying for the songs. Does that make it okay or wrong, in your eyes, to download them to your computer?


Another thing that bothers me about this is that there is a fee when you buy blank DVD/CDs that goes to pay various music and video industries, due to how they can be used for piracy. You ARE paying for a crime, regardless of whether or not you committed. this is another thing that sickens me. Morally, I don't feel bad at all when people download music illegally, because of this. I am paying them, and I am being treated as a criminal. Why should I feel bad about downloading songs, then, since I *am* paying for them? Note that I don't do this, anyway, but this is the point of my thread. The shades of gray and conflicting thoughts.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Let me know.

MrGeezer

Im the first example, you knew the return policy when you bought the game. The terms are, no refunds after 30 days. If you simply choose to not try out something that you bought until after that return period has ended, then that's your fault. That return policy benefits you by allowing you to return the game. If you simply choose to not take advantage of that benefit, that doesn't make it okay to commit piracy.

And no, it's not okay to pirate HD content because you purchased a non-HD disc earlier. It's not the same content. The fact that you're even bothering to illegally download the HD version despite owning and having access to the non-HD version shows that in your mind, they're not the same. If you thought that they were the same, then you wouldn't be illegally downloading it in HD when you already had it available in a non-HD form. And now that we agree that you're getting something extra in HD, then ****ing pay for it. Buy it legit.

As far as preordering games and then playing early illegal leaks, that's not better. Was it OFFICIALLY released early online? Or was it an early online leak? If it's an early online leak, then it's still wrong because IT WASN"T SUPPOSED TO BE RELEASED YET. Hell, it might not even be quite DONE yet. Now you play the whole thing before release date, and give the game bad press. Even though you were playing an unfinished and buggy version of the game. Don't even talk to me about how you preordered it. No one made you preorder it. You could have just as well waited until the release date and then bought it legally like most people. And part of the terms of a preorder is that you pay early and get the game when it is released. If it gets illegally "released" before the release date, that doesn't mean it's within the terms of sale to just illegally download the game online.

run everyone over with your high horse why dont you

priestinacloset

High horse, nothing.

I just don't do bad stuff and then try to pretend like I'm the good guy.

That certainly doesn't mean that I don't do anything that's "bad" (although I don't do anything ILLEGAL, because admitting to ILLEGAL activities is a no-no and will result in this thread getting shut down). I don't have to justify the bad things that I do. Yeah it's bad, and I do it anyway because I ****ing feel like it. It has nothing to do with being holier-than-thou. It's more along the lines that it's not good to lie to onesself. Don't try to justify this behavior. If you do it, at least have the moral fortitude to admit that it's bad and that you just don't care. The vast majority of (if not ALL) the excuses I've heard for piracy are nothing more than fluff. Let's face it...people want stuff for free.

When you buy a movie, you are not buying it for every medium in every context in every release. If you buy an SD movie, you do not have the right to pirate the HD version. You didn't buy the HD version, you bought the SD version.

Likewise with songs, when you buy Guitar Hero, you aren't given the licensce to download the songs on your computer. You bought Guitar Hero, not the songs. An implication of buying Guitar Hero is that you can hear and "play" the songs in-game, but the fact of the matter is that you still have the buy the songs if you want to hear them outside of the game.

That's my opinion, anyways. Pirating is never justifiable, however admittedly sometimes necesarry. Not that, as you say, I would do it.

I would like to ask what MrGeezer thinks about borrowing video games from a friend and playing it and then giving it back. You didn't pay for the game, so what right do you have to play it?Mousetaches

It's covered by the first sale doctrine (Well, at least for console games. You can't legally share most PC software).

I have no qualms about piaracy.

In Canada we pay a tax (payed to private corperations) on blank media because it is assumed that everyone is a pirate. If they are already charging us there I see no reason to pay them elsewhere.

I would like to ask what MrGeezer thinks about borrowing video games from a friend and playing it and then giving it back. You didn't pay for the game, so what right do you have to play it?Mousetaches

Don't be ridiculous.

Anti-piracy doesn't mean I can't pop my Smashing Pumpkins CD into my car's CD player, and then give a friend a ride home from work while we both listen to a Smashing Pumokins CD that only one of us bought.

And I have no doubt that this is eventually going to happen. We've gotten damn used to the idea of "multiplayer games" requiring each player to have a copy of the same exact game. The days of Goldeneye are over. No more split-screen FPS games, and soon even fighting and racing games are going to go the way of "internet-only multiplay". This trend has ONLY starting to appear as a way of making people pay twice for the same game, and gamers have been shockingly non-disturbed about this. Eventually face detection and weight detection are going to come standard in TVs and sofas. And everything will be connected. So...you can watch Garden State alone by yourself. But the second that you bring a girl over to watch it with you, she'll sit down on your sofa and then your sofa will send a signal to the company who made the movie, and you'll get charged real actual money for watching the movie with another person. It's gonna happen, I ****ing guarantee it. Hell, look at how many people there are hoping for the death of physical media, and you see that this WILL happen eventually. I promise that within the next 50 years, physical media will die. No more CDs, no more BD discs. That we'll no longer be able to "own" a movie, but will simply purchase the rights to see a movie once. I guarantee that it won't be long before you literally cannot ever see a movie without paying for it every ****ing time you watch it. And by that time, it'll be a short step to charging you double to watch the movie because your sofa detected two people in the room and sent that data to whoever else is in the room.

But we aren't there yet. And letting someone borrow a game or movie means that there's STILL one person watching/playing it. If I bought it and then let another person borrow it, I'm deprived of it. And, that's also perfectly LEGAL.

It's not a big deal, or is it? :P

It's a morally difficult thing to grasp. It's not as though a person can directly observe the consequences of his or her pirating; you don't see a developer start crying when he learns someone pirated his game.

And really, who loses here? A company makes slightly less money. If everyone pirated, we would most certainly have problems, but as an individual it is challenging to discern the moral problem with it, especially considering no one seems to suffer as a result. (And don't tell me making slightly less money is suffering!)

If you downloaded one of Lady Gaga's albums, then I'm not really bothered who downloads it, 'cause she already has enough bloody money anyway.
If you download an album of someone who depends entirely on selling their records, like Boards of Canada, then I have a problem. They need the money, so I'll happily pay for it.

I'm not paying for something if they already got enough money.

Meh, corporations are destroying this world, they deserve it.Dr_Brocoli

"Corporations" provide jobs to a ****ton of people, and provide other people with the resources and goods that they need.

If you're so happy sticking it to "the corporations" by stealing, then you must have LOVED when the US economy recently crashed and a whole hell of a lot of decent people were left jobless and homeless.

[QUOTE="priestinacloset"] run everyone over with your high horse why dont you

MrGeezer

High horse, nothing.

I just don't do bad stuff and then try to pretend like I'm the good guy.

That certainly doesn't mean that I don't do anything that's "bad" (although I don't do anything ILLEGAL, because admitting to ILLEGAL activities is a no-no and will result in this thread getting shut down). I don't have to justify the bad things that I do. Yeah it's bad, and I do it anyway because I ****ing feel like it. It has nothing to do with being holier-than-thou. It's more along the lines that it's not good to lie to onesself. Don't try to justify this behavior. If you do it, at least have the moral fortitude to admit that it's bad and that you just don't care. The vast majority of (if not ALL) the excuses I've heard for piracy are nothing more than fluff. Let's face it...people want stuff for free.

If you downloaded one of Lady Gaga's albums, then I'm not really bothered who downloads it, 'cause she already has enough bloody money anyway.
If you download an album of someone who depends entirely on selling their records, like Boards of Canada, then I have a problem. They need the money, so I'll happily pay for it.

I'm not paying for something if they already got enough money.

CBR600-RR

"Already got enough money"?!

Funny, that's EXACTLY what a homeless dude said to me last month, after smashing me over the head with a brick and then stealing my wallet off of my nearly-unconscious body.

EVERYONE thinks that someone else doesn't "deserve" what they have. Everyone thinks that someone else "already has enough". Exactly HOW BIG of a discrepancy between the thief and the victim has to exist in order to justify forcibly taking someone else's ****?

Is it okay to rob a millionaire if I only have 30 thousand dollars in my bank account? Is it okay to rob someone with $50 in his bank account if I don't evn have a bank account and only have five dollars in my pocket? At which point does it become morally justified to take what isn't yours simply because the person who you're taking it from has more than you?

Really, it makes me sad and depressed that we're even discussing this. It worries me incredibly that I'm sitting here casually talking to people who think that it's okay to steal from people as long as that person has more than you.

"Already got enough money"?!

Funny, that's EXACTLY what a homeless dude said to me last month, after smashing me over the head with a brick and then stealing my wallet off of my nearly-unconscious body.

EVERYONE thinks that someone else doesn't "deserve" what they have. Everyone thinks that someone else "already has enough". Exactly HOW BIG of a discrepancy between the thief and the victim has to exist in order to justify forcibly taking someone else's ****?

Is it okay to rob a millionaire if I only have 30 thousand dollars in my bank account? Is it okay to rob someone with $50 in his bank account if I don't evn have a bank account and only have five dollars in my pocket? At which point does it become morally justified to take what isn't yours simply because the person who you're taking it from has more than you?

Really, it makes me sad and depressed that we're even discussing this. It worries me incredibly that I'm sitting here casually talking to people who think that it's okay to steal from people as long as that person has more than you.

MrGeezer

Like a give a damn what you think? I paid good money for my albums that I have, they were worth buying. Anything else, argh, pirate be me.

[QUOTE="Dr_Brocoli"]Meh, corporations are destroying this world, they deserve it.MrGeezer

"Corporations" provide jobs to a ****ton of people, and provide other people with the resources and goods that they need.

If you're so happy sticking it to "the corporations" by stealing, then you must have LOVED when the US economy recently crashed and a whole hell of a lot of decent people were left jobless and homeless.

They also screw a crapload of people out of jobs as well, with layoffs and insider trading, etc, ie Enron. You think those people seriously needed to be fired by corporations because of the crash? No! They could have taken their hit, endured for 5-10 years, and come back stronger than ever but no...they laid off thousand, millions of people to satisfy the top 1%

you need to remember that 50 years ago over 80% of businesses were privately owned, now they just make up less than 10%

Corporations are the perfect example of the old saying "Those that sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither". The only reason you hear people taking corporate jobs are for A.) the benefits and B.) the pay. Nobody enjoys it, takes it out of pride, or any significant reason.

But, sadly, such are the ways of our time.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

"Already got enough money"?!

Funny, that's EXACTLY what a homeless dude said to me last month, after smashing me over the head with a brick and then stealing my wallet off of my nearly-unconscious body.

EVERYONE thinks that someone else doesn't "deserve" what they have. Everyone thinks that someone else "already has enough". Exactly HOW BIG of a discrepancy between the thief and the victim has to exist in order to justify forcibly taking someone else's ****?

Is it okay to rob a millionaire if I only have 30 thousand dollars in my bank account? Is it okay to rob someone with $50 in his bank account if I don't evn have a bank account and only have five dollars in my pocket? At which point does it become morally justified to take what isn't yours simply because the person who you're taking it from has more than you?

Really, it makes me sad and depressed that we're even discussing this. It worries me incredibly that I'm sitting here casually talking to people who think that it's okay to steal from people as long as that person has more than you.

CBR600-RR

Like a give a damn what you think? I paid good money for my albums that I have, they were worth buying. Anything else, argh, pirate be me.

Here something interesting about piracy. Currently the riaa's Canadian equivalent, the cria, is beign sued for 6 billion dollars for copywrite infringement by numerous artists. Makes you wonder who the real pirates are.

This is eye opening if you consider that Canada is a pretty small country, compared to America which is about 10 times the size.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="Dr_Brocoli"]Meh, corporations are destroying this world, they deserve it.mrbojangles25

"Corporations" provide jobs to a ****ton of people, and provide other people with the resources and goods that they need.

If you're so happy sticking it to "the corporations" by stealing, then you must have LOVED when the US economy recently crashed and a whole hell of a lot of decent people were left jobless and homeless.

They also screw a crapload of people out of jobs as well, with layoffs and insider trading, etc, ie Enron

you need to remember that 50 years ago over 80% of businesses were privately owned, now they just make up less than 10%

Corporations are the perfect example of the old saying "Those that sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither". The only reason you hear people taking corporate jobs are for A.) the benefits and B.) the pay. Nobody enjoys it, takes it out of pride, or any significant reason.

But, sadly, such are the ways of our time.

As in...corporations have the money to actually take care of their workers.

Talk all you want about Wal-Mart ****ing over their employees, but I've seen some bona-fide horror stories when it comes to people working at small privately owned businesses. At least when you go to work at Wal-Mart, you're guaranteed to at least get a paycheck for the hours that you work.

Mom and pop stores aren't such smiles and giggles either. In addition to the business likely failing (in which case you're just as unemployed as if Wal-Mart fired you), I've known plenty of people who were forced to work for less than minimum wage, and whose bosses tried to cook the books in order to screw their most valuable people out of an entire week's pay.

You're LESS likely to have to suffer through this kind of **** at Best Buy, because Best Buy stands to lose more from bad publicity. Best Buy will end up in the ****ing newspaper when they try to pull this ****, while a mom and pop store avoids that kind of publicity since no one shops there or knows what the staore is anyway.

Wow, you are the ignorant one among your friends, aren't you? You didn't even respond to anything he said, you just dismissed him totally. Nice going.chrisPperson

No, not really. I will pay good money for my favourite artists which are "not so popular", they need the money.
I don't care what you think of me, I'm a nice person and will help a lady across the street, I just will not pay for someone who generally is being greedy. Don't give me that "what's morally right and wrong" crap.

[QUOTE="chrisPperson"]Wow, you are the ignorant one among your friends, aren't you? You didn't even respond to anything he said, you just dismissed him totally. Nice going.CBR600-RR

No, not really. I will pay good money for my favourite artists which are "not so popular", they need the money.
I don't care what you think of me, I'm a nice person and will help a lady across the street, I just will not pay for someone who generally is being greedy. Don't give me that "what's morally right and wrong" crap.

Obviously you are one of those guys that has some money to blow. You have a computer with Internet, and you have enough free time to go onto a gaming website, which shows you also have games. So, I can label you as "having enough money". However, how'd you like me coming up to you and taking money from you? Don't tell me that it wouldn't bother you, because it would.

[QUOTE="CBR600-RR"]

[QUOTE="chrisPperson"]Wow, you are the ignorant one among your friends, aren't you? You didn't even respond to anything he said, you just dismissed him totally. Nice going.chrisPperson

No, not really. I will pay good money for my favourite artists which are "not so popular", they need the money.
I don't care what you think of me, I'm a nice person and will help a lady across the street, I just will not pay for someone who generally is being greedy. Don't give me that "what's morally right and wrong" crap.

Obviously you are one of those guys that has some money to blow. You have a computer with Internet, and you have enough free time to go onto a gaming website, which shows you also have games. So, I can label you as "having enough money". However, how'd you like me coming up to you and taking money from you? Don't tell me that it wouldn't bother you, because it would.

We're talking about the morality of piracy.. not morality in general.

I do not have enough money to blow, I spend it on things I need. I haven't bought a game in a few months now, I've been buying stuff that I need.

[QUOTE="Mousetaches"]I would like to ask what MrGeezer thinks about borrowing video games from a friend and playing it and then giving it back. You didn't pay for the game, so what right do you have to play it?MrGeezer

Don't be ridiculous.

Anti-piracy doesn't mean I can't pop my Smashing Pumpkins CD into my car's CD player, and then give a friend a ride home from work while we both listen to a Smashing Pumokins CD that only one of us bought.

And I have no doubt that this is eventually going to happen. We've gotten damn used to the idea of "multiplayer games" requiring each player to have a copy of the same exact game. The days of Goldeneye are over. No more split-screen FPS games, and soon even fighting and racing games are going to go the way of "internet-only multiplay". This trend has ONLY starting to appear as a way of making people pay twice for the same game, and gamers have been shockingly non-disturbed about this. Eventually face detection and weight detection are going to come standard in TVs and sofas. And everything will be connected. So...you can watch Garden State alone by yourself. But the second that you bring a girl over to watch it with you, she'll sit down on your sofa and then your sofa will send a signal to the company who made the movie, and you'll get charged real actual money for watching the movie with another person. It's gonna happen, I ****ing guarantee it. Hell, look at how many people there are hoping for the death of physical media, and you see that this WILL happen eventually. I promise that within the next 50 years, physical media will die. No more CDs, no more BD discs. That we'll no longer be able to "own" a movie, but will simply purchase the rights to see a movie once. I guarantee that it won't be long before you literally cannot ever see a movie without paying for it every ****ing time you watch it. And by that time, it'll be a short step to charging you double to watch the movie because your sofa detected two people in the room and sent that data to whoever else is in the room.

But we aren't there yet. And letting someone borrow a game or movie means that there's STILL one person watching/playing it. If I bought it and then let another person borrow it, I'm deprived of it. And, that's also perfectly LEGAL.

[QUOTE="chrisPperson"]

[QUOTE="CBR600-RR"]

No, not really. I will pay good money for my favourite artists which are "not so popular", they need the money.
I don't care what you think of me, I'm a nice person and will help a lady across the street, I just will not pay for someone who generally is being greedy. Don't give me that "what's morally right and wrong" crap.

CBR600-RR

We're talking about the morality of piracy.. not morality in general.

"I do not have enough money to blow, I spend it on things I need. I haven't bought a game in a few months now, I've been buying stuff that I need." says you. The mere fact that you have enough time to spend on a gaming website talking to strangers shows that you definitely are not poor.

Morality is totally relevant to the topic. In case you didn't see the "MORALITY" of piracy. Piracy is just one example of ethical choices, the OP could just as well have titled it the "morality of shoplifting" and we would have a very similar discussion. Oh wait, no we wouldn't. There are too many people thinking that piracy is okay, like you. The fact is, whether you think it is okay or not, piracy is an immoral action. You are stealing money that could have potentially been earned by the artist. Whether they are a mainstream artist or a smaller artist, you are stealing money from them.

chrisPperson

Most people you come across most likely download illegally. So we're all stealing, yes we are, doesn't make us a bad person though.
I blame the person who hosted the files to download in the first place, they're sharing it to everyone, so essentially it's their fault.

"I do not have enough money to blow, I spend it on things I need. I haven't bought a game in a few months now, I've been buying stuff that I need." says you. The mere fact that you have enough time to spend on a gaming website talking to strangers shows that you definitely are not poor.

chrisPperson

I have to pay my parents rent.. the money I have spare goes on my motorcycle insurance, petrol.

[QUOTE="CBR600-RR"]

[QUOTE="chrisPperson"] I'm sure you are a nice person, buddy, it's just that you're not looking all that great from the internet point of view. And unfortunately, the "morally right and wrong" crap is the crap that decides whether you REALLY help old ladies across the streets. You make moral decisions every day, so don't tell me to stop giving you the "morally right and wrong" crap, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.

chrisPperson

We're talking about the morality of piracy.. not morality in general.

"I do not have enough money to blow, I spend it on things I need. I haven't bought a game in a few months now, I've been buying stuff that I need." says you. The mere fact that you have enough time to spend on a gaming website talking to strangers shows that you definitely are not poor.

Sometimes people pirate out of hate =Pxionvalkyrie

I have no problem with piracy in this form, if they don't want their crap 'stolen' make it harder to use when stolen... or harder to steal in the first place. Requiring some sort of online authentication could be a way, even with an offline game/program (for computers.. not xbox/ps/wii...) that would be difficulty to emulate, to deter people from trying in the first place... Outsmart the criminal! Don't use some bs laws to make the criminal really a criminal! Plus, whole new industry right there, anti piracy.. Bam capitalism at it's finest. (for software...)

If a band needs money, they need to do better at concerts, if Hollywood needs money, do better at the theater, don't sit there thinking that you can half ass a movie or song and let the record/movie sales keep you afloat, and there are always those 'weirdos' who will buy music or movies no matter what and never 'pirate' anything. Also in music, cutting down on how elaborite a show is should be a good way to make money, if your MUSIC is good.. people will LISTEN... don't need all them damn effects... =D

Music and Videos are harder to protect, since you can physically record with with a screen capture or with a good ol' analog device(s)[radio/tape recorder]. And MAYBE for these some sort of fine/jailtime for the person who is the root cause of the 'piracy', not the lowely person who downloads it.. since I'd think, most people don't.. when the legally obtain a movie/music just start putting it up to share, or in the case of movies, ripping them in the first place.

[QUOTE="chrisPperson"]Morality is totally relevant to the topic. In case you didn't see the "MORALITY" of piracy. Piracy is just one example of ethical choices, the OP could just as well have titled it the "morality of shoplifting" and we would have a very similar discussion. Oh wait, no we wouldn't. There are too many people thinking that piracy is okay, like you. The fact is, whether you think it is okay or not, piracy is an immoral action. You are stealing money that could have potentially been earned by the artist. Whether they are a mainstream artist or a smaller artist, you are stealing money from them.

CBR600-RR

Most people you come across most likely download illegally. So we're all stealing, yes we are, doesn't make us a bad person though.
I blame the person who hosted the files to download in the first place, they're sharing it to everyone, so essentially it's their fault.

"I do not have enough money to blow, I spend it on things I need. I haven't bought a game in a few months now, I've been buying stuff that I need." says you. The mere fact that you have enough time to spend on a gaming website talking to strangers shows that you definitely are not poor.

chrisPperson

I have to pay my parents rent..

And I will tell you that so many people pirate that there is a very low chance that you will be caught. But that is not the point, we are discussing a very obvious topic- whether stealing is moral. For all you know, I could pirate all my songs off of torrents, but I would at least that what I was doing was unethical. That was hypothetical, by the way.

First of all, there are two laws against piracy. The person who uploaded copyrighted material is breaking the law by distributing it without permission. Then, the people who download it are also breaking the law by downloading it from a non-permitted third party source. And let me restate something that I said in my previous topic, just because everyone does it doesn't mean it is okay. If you hear that someone brutally murdered some guy, and then shot his wife, and killed their children, you must think it is okay, because that guy did it, right? And no, I think it is like 10% of people who download illegally. And I don't think you read my statement. It doesn't matter whether you are paying your parents' rent, or whether you are paying for their internet or what, the point is you aren't poor, obviously, so I will be very frank and will tell you to kindly shut up, because again, you are not poor.

chrisPperson

Since you're comparing taking someone's life with taking a copy of an album from a thief, then I'll say something.
I bet you most drivers have broke the speed limit whilst driving thus breaking the law, they're putting lives at danger. Do you go over the speed limit?

[QUOTE="chrisPperson"]

First of all, there are two laws against piracy. The person who uploaded copyrighted material is breaking the law by distributing it without permission. Then, the people who download it are also breaking the law by downloading it from a non-permitted third party source. And let me restate something that I said in my previous topic, just because everyone does it doesn't mean it is okay. If you hear that someone brutally murdered some guy, and then shot his wife, and killed their children, you must think it is okay, because that guy did it, right? And no, I think it is like 10% of people who download illegally. And I don't think you read my statement. It doesn't matter whether you are paying your parents' rent, or whether you are paying for their internet or what, the point is you aren't poor, obviously, so I will be very frank and will tell you to kindly shut up, because again, you are not poor.

CBR600-RR

Since you're comparing taking someone's life with taking a copy of an album from a thief, then I'll say something.
I bet you most drivers have broke the speed limit whilst driving thus breaking the law, they're putting lives at danger. Do you go over the speed limit?

First of all, there are two laws against piracy. The person who uploaded copyrighted material is breaking the law by distributing it without permission. Then, the people who download it are also breaking the law by downloading it from a non-permitted third party source. And let me restate something that I said in my previous topic, just because everyone does it doesn't mean it is okay. If you hear that someone brutally murdered some guy, and then shot his wife, and killed their children, you must think it is okay, because that guy did it, right? And no, I think it is like 10% of people who download illegally. And I don't think you read my statement. It doesn't matter whether you are paying your parents' rent, or whether you are paying for their internet or what, the point is you aren't poor, obviously, so I will be very frank and will tell you to kindly shut up, because again, you are not poor.chrisPperson

What are they gonna do, send (HYPOTHETICALLY) me, you, your mom and everyone in our families to jail, everyone we've know? Or fine us all? Yea, no 10% of of the internet population is ~150m people (I think... i read it somewhere that it was 1.5b or something...), and they are in all different nations, policing that would be hell... But it's the software corporation's fault for making it so damn easy to steal...

If I make a beautiful gold ring, with diamonds on it, and set it up on a stand outside with a lone for sale sign protecting it.. Is it going to get stolen? YES IT IS, those watermelons across the street? Probably not. Maybe I'll put it in a glass enclosure to deter the kids from stealing it.. but a real criminal will just break it.. Maybe I'll put it in a store, now the criminal has to hold up the store to get it.. maybe he will, maybe I'll add a camera and a security system including a shotgun under my counter.. maybe now the criminal will think twice before trying to steal my gold ring.

Look at all the industries that were stimulated from my desire to protect my gold ring, first it was a lowley sign manufacture, then a glass enclosure, a building, a camera from some corporation, a security group, a gun manufacture. CAPITALISM will protect itself if you don't use laws, do your job protecting something, or get it stolen and cry to your mommy.

[QUOTE="chrisPperson"]Morality is totally relevant to the topic. In case you didn't see the "MORALITY" of piracy. Piracy is just one example of ethical choices, the OP could just as well have titled it the "morality of shoplifting" and we would have a very similar discussion. Oh wait, no we wouldn't. There are too many people thinking that piracy is okay, like you. The fact is, whether you think it is okay or not, piracy is an immoral action. You are stealing money that could have potentially been earned by the artist. Whether they are a mainstream artist or a smaller artist, you are stealing money from them.

CBR600-RR

Most people you come across most likely download illegally. So we're all stealing, yes we are, doesn't make us a bad person though.
I blame the person who hosted the files to download in the first place, they're sharing it to everyone, so essentially it's their fault.

"I do not have enough money to blow, I spend it on things I need. I haven't bought a game in a few months now, I've been buying stuff that I need." says you. The mere fact that you have enough time to spend on a gaming website talking to strangers shows that you definitely are not poor.

chrisPperson

I have to pay my parents rent.. the money I have spare goes on my motorcycle insurance, petrol.

I am in a similiar situation.

I wont sit here and tell you that Im starving, but at the same time I barely have enough money to cover my needs, and getting to do what I want (even the most basic thing, such as a video game or getting some beers with friends) is what I consider a luxury.

[QUOTE="chrisPperson"] First of all, there are two laws against piracy. The person who uploaded copyrighted material is breaking the law by distributing it without permission. Then, the people who download it are also breaking the law by downloading it from a non-permitted third party source. And let me restate something that I said in my previous topic, just because everyone does it doesn't mean it is okay. If you hear that someone brutally murdered some guy, and then shot his wife, and killed their children, you must think it is okay, because that guy did it, right? And no, I think it is like 10% of people who download illegally. And I don't think you read my statement. It doesn't matter whether you are paying your parents' rent, or whether you are paying for their internet or what, the point is you aren't poor, obviously, so I will be very frank and will tell you to kindly shut up, because again, you are not poor.Inconsistancy

What are they gonna do, send (HYPOTHETICALLY) me, you, your mom and everyone in our families to jail, everyone we've know? Or fine us all? Yea, no 10% of of the internet population is ~150m people (I think... i read it somewhere that it was 1.5b or something...), and they are in all different nations, policing that would be hell... But it's the software corporation's fault for making it so damn easy to steal...

If I make a beautiful gold ring, with diamonds on it, and set it up on a stand outside with a lone for sale sign protecting it.. Is it going to get stolen? YES IT IS, those watermelons across the street? Probably not. Maybe I'll put it in a glass enclosure to deter the kids from stealing it.. but a real criminal will just break it.. Maybe I'll put it in a store, now the criminal has to hold up the store to get it.. maybe he will, maybe I'll add a camera and a security system including a shotgun under my counter.. maybe now the criminal will think twice before trying to steal my gold ring.

Look at all the industries that were stimulated from my desire to protect my gold ring, first it was a lowley sign manufacture, then a glass enclosure, a building, a camera from some corporation, a security group, a gun manufacture. CAPITALISM will protect itself if you don't use laws, do your job protecting something, or get it stolen and cry to your mommy.

I thought I've made this clear already.

It is very, very easy to pirate. You will probably never get caught, and will have the music all to yourself for the rest of your life without paying a dime. That does NOT, however, take away from the fact that it is wrong. No matter how easy it is to steal, it is still wrong.

Immoral Decisions = Intentional decisions to make an unethical choice. If you intended to go above the speed limit, you are making an immoral decision. If you did it unintentionally, then you aren't making an immoral decision, but you are breaking the law anyways. You will have to be more specific on whether these drivers are intentionally going over the speed limit or not, but for now, I'll assume they are intending to. Going over the speed limit is wrong, intentionally or unintentionally, but if you are deciding to do it to get somewhere faster, then you are putting lives at risk and breaking the law, and are therefore making immoral decisions. I'm trying to make this as clear as I can for you, because obviously my last (how many?) posts haven't made this very obvious to you. Wrong decisions are immoral. Right decisions are moral. Stealing is a wrong decision. Intentionally going over the speed limit is a wrong decision. Saving someone's life is a right decision. Shall I make any more examples, or is this getting to you?

chrisPperson

Try spacing out your posts next time, please.

I know what morals are, I know that stealing is intentional and wrong. I said "don't give me that moral crap" because I already know it's morally wrong to steal, so stop telling me it's wrong, I know what I'm doing, it's intentional.

And yes, intentionally going over the speed limit, even if it's a few MPH, but loads do it more than people who pirate. Going a little over the speed limit is just like downloading a few albums. So they're both wrong.

[QUOTE="chrisPperson"]

Immoral Decisions = Intentional decisions to make an unethical choice. If you intended to go above the speed limit, you are making an immoral decision. If you did it unintentionally, then you aren't making an immoral decision, but you are breaking the law anyways. You will have to be more specific on whether these drivers are intentionally going over the speed limit or not, but for now, I'll assume they are intending to. Going over the speed limit is wrong, intentionally or unintentionally, but if you are deciding to do it to get somewhere faster, then you are putting lives at risk and breaking the law, and are therefore making immoral decisions. I'm trying to make this as clear as I can for you, because obviously my last (how many?) posts haven't made this very obvious to you. Wrong decisions are immoral. Right decisions are moral. Stealing is a wrong decision. Intentionally going over the speed limit is a wrong decision. Saving someone's life is a right decision. Shall I make any more examples, or is this getting to you?

CBR600-RR

Try spacing out your posts next time, please.

I know what morals are, I know that stealing is intentional and wrong. I said "don't give me that moral crap" because I already know it's morally wrong to steal, so stop telling me it's wrong, I know what I'm doing, it's intentional.

And yes, intentionally going over the speed limit, even if it's a few MPH, but loads do it more than people who pirate. Going a little over the speed limit is just like downloading a few albums. So they're both wrong.

And gee, it took me a lot of posts telling you "pirating is wrong" before you finally made a post like this that tied up the loose ends. One example of you contradicting yourself, but I'll quit before you get pissed off.

[QUOTE="CBR600-RR"]

[QUOTE="chrisPperson"]

Immoral Decisions = Intentional decisions to make an unethical choice. If you intended to go above the speed limit, you are making an immoral decision. If you did it unintentionally, then you aren't making an immoral decision, but you are breaking the law anyways. You will have to be more specific on whether these drivers are intentionally going over the speed limit or not, but for now, I'll assume they are intending to. Going over the speed limit is wrong, intentionally or unintentionally, but if you are deciding to do it to get somewhere faster, then you are putting lives at risk and breaking the law, and are therefore making immoral decisions. I'm trying to make this as clear as I can for you, because obviously my last (how many?) posts haven't made this very obvious to you. Wrong decisions are immoral. Right decisions are moral. Stealing is a wrong decision. Intentionally going over the speed limit is a wrong decision. Saving someone's life is a right decision. Shall I make any more examples, or is this getting to you?

chrisPperson

Try spacing out your posts next time, please.

I know what morals are, I know that stealing is intentional and wrong. I said "don't give me that moral crap" because I already know it's morally wrong to steal, so stop telling me it's wrong, I know what I'm doing, it's intentional.

And yes, intentionally going over the speed limit, even if it's a few MPH, but loads do it more than people who pirate. Going a little over the speed limit is just like downloading a few albums. So they're both wrong.

And gee, it took me a lot of posts telling you "pirating is wrong" before you finally made a post like this that tied up the loose ends. One example of you contradicting yourself, but I'll quit before you get pissed off.

the point here is that we all "break" the law in some form.

some people drive 75 in 65 zones. Some download albums illegaly.

Personally, I would argue that going 75 is far worse than the albums. But you dont see threads about that, do you? And you know why? Because everyone here that drives likely drives over the limit. No one wants to be a hypocrite though.

And that is besides the fact; I still do not understand why you people are so loyal to publishers. You think the artists care? Record sales make 10% or less (on average) of their income. Why on earth do you think bands tour so much?

[QUOTE="chrisPperson"]

[QUOTE="CBR600-RR"]

Try spacing out your posts next time, please.

I know what morals are, I know that stealing is intentional and wrong. I said "don't give me that moral crap" because I already know it's morally wrong to steal, so stop telling me it's wrong, I know what I'm doing, it's intentional.

And yes, intentionally going over the speed limit, even if it's a few MPH, but loads do it more than people who pirate. Going a little over the speed limit is just like downloading a few albums. So they're both wrong.

mrbojangles25

And gee, it took me a lot of posts telling you "pirating is wrong" before you finally made a post like this that tied up the loose ends. One example of you contradicting yourself, but I'll quit before you get pissed off.

the point here is that we all "break" the law in some form.

some people drive 75 in 65 zones. Some download albums illegaly.

Personally, I would argue that going 75 is far worse than the albums. But you dont see threads about that, do you? And you know why? Because everyone here that drives likely drives over the limit. No one wants to be a hypocrite though.

And that is besides the fact; I still do not understand why you people are so loyal to publishers. You think the artists care? Record sales make 10% or less (on average) of their income. Why on earth do you think bands tour so much?

And with your last line, you're just bringing back the old discussion. Remember stealing is immoral, okay? That's all you need to know. You can say that stealing from them will make them have a very low impact on their profit, if any, but that doesn't excuse the fact that it is wrong.

Exactly. Everything you just said there is correct. However, you are totally contradicting your previous posts, but I won't bother quoting those out. I'm tired and cranky right now, so don't even bother quoting out this post and trying to find something wrong with it, thanks. And the reason my post wasn't spaced, well it was, is because GameSpot's quick quote is screwed up like hell.

And gee, it took me a lot of posts telling you "pirating is wrong" before you finally made a post like this that tied up the loose ends. One example of you contradicting yourself, but I'll quit before you get pissed off.

chrisPperson

In no other posts did I say it was right to steal, I didn't even cause this, you did.

[QUOTE="chrisPperson"]Exactly. Everything you just said there is correct. However, you are totally contradicting your previous posts, but I won't bother quoting those out. I'm tired and cranky right now, so don't even bother quoting out this post and trying to find something wrong with it, thanks. And the reason my post wasn't spaced, well it was, is because GameSpot's quick quote is screwed up like hell.

And gee, it took me a lot of posts telling you "pirating is wrong" before you finally made a post like this that tied up the loose ends. One example of you contradicting yourself, but I'll quit before you get pissed off.

CBR600-RR

In no other posts did I say it was right to steal, I didn't even cause this, you did.

No, you didn't essentially say pirating was right, but that is sure as hell what it came out as.

"Like a give a damn what you think? I paid good money for my albums that I have, they were worth buying. Anything else, argh, pirate be me."

"I just will not pay for someone who generally is being greedy."

"Most people you come across most likely download illegally. So we're all stealing, yes we are, doesn't make us a bad person though."

"If you downloaded one of Lady Gaga's albums, then I'm not really bothered who downloads it, 'cause she already has enough bloody money anyway."

"I'm not paying for something if they already got enough money."

I hope you can kind of see where I would get the conclusion that you thought pirating was okay...

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

[QUOTE="chrisPperson"] Exactly. Everything you just said there is correct. However, you are totally contradicting your previous posts, but I won't bother quoting those out. I'm tired and cranky right now, so don't even bother quoting out this post and trying to find something wrong with it, thanks. And the reason my post wasn't spaced, well it was, is because GameSpot's quick quote is screwed up like hell.

And gee, it took me a lot of posts telling you "pirating is wrong" before you finally made a post like this that tied up the loose ends. One example of you contradicting yourself, but I'll quit before you get pissed off.

chrisPperson

the point here is that we all "break" the law in some form.

some people drive 75 in 65 zones. Some download albums illegaly.

Personally, I would argue that going 75 is far worse than the albums. But you dont see threads about that, do you? And you know why? Because everyone here that drives likely drives over the limit. No one wants to be a hypocrite though.

And that is besides the fact; I still do not understand why you people are so loyal to publishers. You think the artists care? Record sales make 10% or less (on average) of their income. Why on earth do you think bands tour so much?

And with your last line, you're just bringing back the old discussion. Remember stealing is immoral, okay? That's all you need to know. You can say that stealing from them will make them have a very low impact on their profit, if any, but that doesn't excuse the fact that it is wrong.

the issue with piracy, however, is that people see it as traditional theft. Its not. We would not call it piracy if it was...we would simply call it theft or stealing. Piracy is simply a term used by the power players to demonize a relatively minor crime so we see it as evil, as harmful to society.

The people that pirate software are not more likely to legitmately buy software, just like the people that go 5-10 miles per hour over the speed limit are no more likely toactually harm someone.

That is why I thought the analogy is relevant. Piracy is the "white lie" of theft, just like moderate speeding is the "white lie" of automobile infractions. That does not make it right, but it does not make it the big deal everyone claims it is. And it certainly does not give publishers the right to sue people for 400k dollars when they downloaded a dozen albums or so.

I guess what I am trying to say is this: piracy has not really hurt a soul

You're exactly right. I pointed out that you were wrong, and then the conflict begun. So? Is there anything wrong with that?

No, you didn't essentially say pirating was right, but that is sure as hell what it came out as.

"Like a give a damn what you think? I paid good money for my albums that I have, they were worth buying. Anything else, argh, pirate be me."

"I just will not pay for someone who generally is being greedy."

"Most people you come across most likely download illegally. So we're all stealing, yes we are, doesn't make us a bad person though."

"If you downloaded one of Lady Gaga's albums, then I'm not really bothered who downloads it, 'cause she already has enough bloody money anyway."

"I'm not paying for something if they already got enough money."

I hope you can kind of see where I would get the conclusion that you thought pirating was okay...

chrisPperson

I see your point, but if I was going to say piracy was right then I would of said there's nothing wrong with it. Should of asked first? :P

]

the issue with piracy, however, is that people see it as traditional theft. Its not. We would not call it piracy if it was...we would simply call it theft or stealing. Piracy is simply a term used by the power players to demonize a relatively minor crime so we see it as evil, as harmful to society.

The people that pirate software are not more likely to legitmately buy software, just like the people that go 5-10 miles per hour over the speed limit are no more likely toactually harm someone.

That is why I thought the analogy is relevant. Piracy is the "white lie" of theft, just like moderate speeding is the "white lie" of automobile infractions. That does not make it right, but it does not make it the big deal everyone claims it is. And it certainly does not give publishers the right to sue people for 400k dollars when they downloaded a dozen albums or so.

I guess what I am trying to say is this: piracy has not really hurt a soul

mrbojangles25

Do you have any eyes, at all? I think it two of my posts I very specifically said that it isn't that big of a deal, but it is wrong nevertheless. If you are going to tell me I'm wrong about something, make sure you actually know my opinion about it before you go off on a huge post that states exactly what I said. Here:

"That does not make it right, but it does not make it the big deal everyone claims it is"

"It is very, very easy to pirate. You will probably never get caught, and will have the music all to yourself for the rest of your life without paying a dime. That does NOT, however, take away from the fact that it is wrong. No matter how easy it is to steal, it is still wrong."

Very similar opinions, huh.

I see your point, but if I was going to say piracy was right then I would of said there's nothing wrong with it. Should of asked first?

Eh, thought it more appropriate to argue with you until you finally made your point clear. I feel satisfied, so thank you, I guess :?

Yeah, and I'm going to sleep. mrbojangles, if that is your username, if you have anything left to say, please save it. I'm done, and I think everything is settled.