Question on freewill and Heaven

Seeing all this news about the shooting on the news I'm always looking for answers, and in the end it always, always inevitably has someone bringing up freewill. The unbeatable "get God out of jail free" card, no matter how horrific something may be. So I have a question where I'd like to flip freewill on its head and apply it it God and his plan for eternal salvation.

It's pretty simple, actually. Let's lay down a few points:

1. Evil exists in this world due to freewill and original sin (caused by freewill).
2. Heaven is free of Evil.

Therefor, Heaven can't have freewill. If it did, evil would be present, and if it doesn't, in what way is it Heaven? Now you could argue that those in Heaven have proven themselves to be worthy to be in it and won't commit evil (though as far as I've been told, salvation comes from accepting Jesus as your lord and savior, not that one has not done any bad acts, as that's an impossibility apparently so evil acts are irrelevant) and that they are guaranteed not to do ONE single bad act, however I find that to be a bit overly optimistic.

So it seems circular to me. God creates someplace, sacrifices himself to himself to save us from himself, those who believe go to another higher plane of existence (but still have freewill) so they again commit bad acts and have to accept belief to be saved, and on and on. If freewill does in fact exist, where exactly does it cease while at the same time allowing people to be living in eternal bliss without being chained down? And if it never does not exist, how is that compatible with no evil?

Seeing all this news about the shooting on the news I'm always looking for answers, and in the end it always, always inevitably has someone bringing up freewill. The unbeatable "get God out of jail free" card, no matter how horrific something may be. So I have a question where I'd like to flip freewill on its head and apply it it God and his plan for eternal salvation.

It's pretty simple, actually. Let's lay down a few points:

1. Evil exists in this world due to freewill and original sin (caused by freewill).
2. Heaven is free of Evil.

Therefor, Heaven can't have freewill. If it did, evil would be present, and if it doesn't, in what way is it Heaven? Now you could argue that those in Heaven have proven themselves to be worthy to be in it and won't commit evil (though as far as I've been told, salvation comes from accepting Jesus as your lord and savior, not that one has not done any bad acts, as that's an impossibility apparently so evil acts are irrelevant) and that they are guaranteed not to do ONE single bad act, however I find that to be a bit overly optimistic.

So it seems circular to me. God creates someplace, sacrifices himself to himself to save us from himself, those who believe go to another higher plane of existence (but still have freewill) so they again commit bad acts and have to accept belief to be saved, and on and on. If freewill does in fact exist, where exactly does it cease while at the same time allowing people to be living in eternal bliss without being chained down? And if it never does not exist, how is that compatible with no evil?

MirkoS77

Jesus has his own free will and has no evil within him. Therefore, your argument is invalid.mindstorm

Free will is an illusion and heaven is wishful thinking

Free will is an illusion and heaven is wishful thinking

wis3boi

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]Jesus has his own free will and has no evil within him. Therefore, your argument is invalid.MirkoS77

Free will is an illusion and heaven is wishful thinking

wis3boi

But untreated mental illness and its consequences are for real.

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]Jesus has his own free will and has no evil within him. Therefore, your argument is invalid.mindstorm

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]Jesus has his own free will and has no evil within him. Therefore, your argument is invalid.mindstorm

I am not turning the argument in a different direction, you are. I am not seeing this from a scriptural standpoint so you'll have to forgive me if I'm coming off as dense as I imagine you are. I am not taling about God the Father's and God the Son's wills, and don't even know what contradiction you are referring to. I'm not talking about theirs, I'm talking about ours.

"However, in heaven we have a "freed will" that allows us to more freely do the will of God the Father.However, in heaven we have a "freed will" that allows us to more freely do the will of God the Father."

But we still have freewill, yes? Isn't one consequence of freewill the ability to commit evil? What does it matter if it's done in Heaven or here on Earth? Answer me if we have freewill in Heaven. If yes, then how is it Heaven?

I'm sorry I don't understand that at all, explain this "freed will". Not picking a fight, but I'm curious to hear this arguement as it is very rare to have people of faith actually have a conversation that might confict with their beliefs. Yusuke420

I personally put a heavy emphasis on the idea that God is sovereign. The idea goes as this. We, all of humanity, are from conception tainted with sin. Sin is not simply bad things that we do but it is a part of our very essence. Sin is a curse that causes us to seek after a selfish will that seeks to make a name for ourselves rather than showing the greatness of God himself. We therefore seek after our pleasures and happiness in created things rather than the Creator himself. We therefore have confined wills, wills that are corrupted and not as powerful as we would like to believe. Ever wonder why you do the things that you do not want to do? This is why. We have wills and are responsible for our actions. However, our wills are burdened by the weight of sin.

God lifts that sin. Through this burden being lifted we can then finally seek after God. This is the "freed will" that I speak of. Through through power of God within us we are freed from the bondage of sin and are then capable of seeking after the good will of God our Father. This freedom is only partial in this life but is made complete at the return of Christ. In that day we will be given new bodies, new natures, and we will be able to freely do the will of God.

Thank you for answering my question, that was quite an elegant and impressive response. That totally makes sense to me and I can see how people of faith can understand that.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"][QUOTE="MirkoS77"]How so? I'm not talking about Jesus' freewill, I'm talking about ours and whether Heaven has it, and if it does, how is it still Heaven? I don't see how what you said makes my argument invalid at all.

MirkoS77

I am not turning the argument in a different direction, you are. I am not seeing this from a scriptural standpoint so you'll have to forgive me if I'm coming off as dense as I imagine you are. I am not taling about God the Father's and God the Son's wills, and don't even know what contradiction you are referring to. I'm not talking about theirs, I'm talking about ours.

"However, in heaven we have a "freed will" that allows us to more freely do the will of God the Father.However, in heaven we have a "freed will" that allows us to more freely do the will of God the Father."

But we still have freewill, yes? Isn't one consequence of freewill the ability to commit evil? What does it matter if it's done in Heaven or here on Earth? Answer me if we have freewill in Heaven. If yes, then how is it Heaven?

Free will is an illusion and heaven is wishful thinking

wis3boi

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

Free will is an illusion and heaven is wishful thinking

KiIIyou

I suppose I could put it like this, in heaven we freely choose to submit our will to God. As such, all have free will and yet do the will of God. Will there be those who fall away of their own choosing? I can see how someone could make the argument but I very strongly doubt that a person who comes to faith in life will only turn from it upon going to heaven. As a Christian this is a completely foreign concept within my mind and I see no reason why or how this could happen.mindstorm

If we submit our will to God, we effectively have no will except only to be subservient to HIS will. That is no freewill in any respect. If we are bound to the glory of God, then I can't say that is freewill at all.

Would you be willing to admit that if freewill is indeed real, then the possibility will always be there that one could turn from their faith even after attaining salvation, however unlikely? Hey....I'm in Heaven, so what have I got to lose by stepping away at this point? If there's even the slightest chance of this happening, I don't see how Heaven can exist. And if one does step away, then what will be the consequence? That that one will be cast down, which essentially is no different than the existence we currently live in.

Just seems to me from what you're saying, that once has passed on, the definition of 'freewill' changes.

[QUOTE="KiIIyou"][QUOTE="wis3boi"]

Free will is an illusion and heaven is wishful thinking

mindstorm

[QUOTE="KiIIyou"][QUOTE="wis3boi"]

Free will is an illusion and heaven is wishful thinking

mindstorm

If we submit our will to God, we effectively have no will except only to be subservient to HIS will. That is no freewill in any respect. If we are bound to the glory of God, then I can't say that is freewill at all.MirkoS77

Just seems to me from what you're saying, that once has passed on, the definition of 'freewill' changes.

Perhaps I can say it this way, once in heaven though having free will, a greater free will than we have ever had in this life, our zeal for the will of God will be so great that we would never even desire to choose anything against the desires of God.mindstorm

Celestial North Korea

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

Free will is an illusion and heaven is wishful thinking

KiIIyou

Behaviorism and Neuroscience have definitely made freewill a questionable thing

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]Perhaps I can say it this way, once in heaven though having free will, a greater free will than we have ever had in this life, our zeal for the will of God will be so great that we would never even desire to choose anything against the desires of God.wis3boi

Celestial North Korea

[QUOTE="KiIIyou"][QUOTE="wis3boi"]

Free will is an illusion and heaven is wishful thinking

Bane_09

Behaviorism and Neuroscience have definitely made freewill a questionable thing

Our wills are always subject to something. Those things will either be to the idols or God. I'd rather have God as my master and it's my very purpose in life to forsake my own will and put on the will of God. mindstorm

You forsake your will to God. So as my OP says, in Heaven there is no freewill as you have made your choice. You make your choice in this life and are henceforth bound eternally to that choice afterwards. By your description, Heaven does not strike me so much as a paradise as it does a place of, as said, selected subservience. Heaven is to be found in glorifying God, and nothing else. That is not freewill.

One of the problems is that free will is defined so differently by people. Does free will mean we can do anything and everything our heart desires? What if I desired to become a spork? This is an impossibility because our wills are bound to something, in this case reality. In this life we have the choice to do exactly what we will spend eternity doing. If I choose God now, I will spend eternity forward following after God. If I reject him now, I will never have the opportunity again to change my mind. Once a choice is chosen, it's chosen.mindstorm

Freewill (if it really exists) as far as I'm concerned is defined by God, and that's the only definition I'd think would be relevant to any Christian. It is doing whatever we desire, only constrained by the reality we live in, yes. And if you reject God now, why can't you change your mind to embrace him later? Is that not the whole point of freewill? The choices afforded by freewill are never absolute and concrete. Of course they can be changed through it later on, it happens all the time. Someone rejects Christ early on, yet many years later accepts him. We have freewill from the time of birth to our death. It's during that time, no specific choice or place, when it matters.

Freewill (if it really exists) as far as I'm concerned is defined by God, and that's the only definition I'd think would be relevant to any Christian. It is doing whatever we desire, only constrained by the reality we live in, yes. And if you reject God now, why can't you change your mind to embrace him later? Is that not the whole point of freewill? The choices afforded by freewill are never absolute and concrete. Of course they can be changed through it later on, it happens all the time. Someone rejects Christ early on, yet many years later accepts him. We have freewill from the time of birth to our death. It's during that time, no specific choice or place, when it matters.MirkoS77

Freewill (if it really exists) as far as I'm concerned is defined by God, and that's the only definition I'd think would be relevant to any Christian. It is doing whatever we desire, only constrained by the reality we live in, yes. And if you reject God now, why can't you change your mind to embrace him later? Is that not the whole point of freewill? The choices afforded by freewill are never absolute and concrete. Of course they can be changed through it later on, it happens all the time. Someone rejects Christ early on, yet many years later accepts him. We have freewill from the time of birth to our death. It's during that time, no specific choice or place, when it matters.MirkoS77

The major fatal flaw with Christian theology is the belief in an all knowing God which by extension would imply that God knows even before you are born wether you will go to heaven or hell...Given this, are we to believe that man can therefore transcend God's knowledge of how it is we will turn out...Either this notion of free will is total malarkey and or God knows nothing of our eventual outcome or free will does exist but is totally independant of God's judgement because if we are judged for things God knew would happen anyway then we are in the grips of a psycho godspiderluck

Perhaps I can say it this way, once in heaven though having free will, a greater free will than we have ever had in this life, our zeal for the will of God will be so great that we would never even desire to choose anything against the desires of God.mindstorm

[QUOTE="spiderluck"] The major fatal flaw with Christian theology is the belief in an all knowing God which by extension would imply that God knows even before you are born wether you will go to heaven or hell...Given this, are we to believe that man can therefore transcend God's knowledge of how it is we will turn out...Either this notion of free will is total malarkey and or God knows nothing of our eventual outcome or free will does exist but is totally independant of God's judgement because if we are judged for things God knew would happen anyway then we are in the grips of a psycho godmindstorm

free will doesn't exist if god exists.

If god is all knowing than everything is predetermined and can't be changed.

If things can't be changed, that includes future actions.

Therefore free will doesn't exist if god does.

free will doesn't exist if god exists.

If god is all knowing than everything is predetermined and can't be changed.

If things can't be changed, that includes future actions.

Therefore free will doesn't exist if god does.

MakeMeaSammitch

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

[QUOTE="spiderluck"] The major fatal flaw with Christian theology is the belief in an all knowing God which by extension would imply that God knows even before you are born wether you will go to heaven or hell...Given this, are we to believe that man can therefore transcend God's knowledge of how it is we will turn out...Either this notion of free will is total malarkey and or God knows nothing of our eventual outcome or free will does exist but is totally independant of God's judgement because if we are judged for things God knew would happen anyway then we are in the grips of a psycho godspiderluck

That personally sounds rather awesome in my opinion. You do realize that it is my desire to be, in a sense, a slave of God, correct? He is my Lord, my God, my savior, my king. It is my desire to submit my will to God and if that means I never have a will apart from his own, fantastic! I want my desires to be God's desires. Whatever logical consequence this has for the concept of my own free will is therefore almost irrelevant. Whatever God desires is infinitely better than anything I could ever hope to desire in and of myself. mindstorm

Just seems to me from what you're saying, that once has passed on, the definition of 'freewill' changes.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"] That personally sounds rather awesome in my opinion. You do realize that it is my desire to be, in a sense, a slave of God, correct? He is my Lord, my God, my savior, my king. It is my desire to submit my will to God and if that means I never have a will apart from his own, fantastic! I want my desires to be God's desires. Whatever logical consequence this has for the concept of my own free will is therefore almost irrelevant. Whatever God desires is infinitely better than anything I could ever hope to desire in and of myself. Rhazakna

Just like the brainwashed citizens of Pyongyang think the Kims are the best thing since sliced bread

So it seems circular to me. God creates someplace, sacrifices himself to himself to save us from himself, those who believe go to another higher plane of existence (but still have freewill) so they again commit bad acts and have to accept belief to be saved, and on and on.

MirkoS77

That applies only to people who believe in the Trinity, dude....

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

So it seems circular to me. God creates someplace, sacrifices himself to himself to save us from himself, those who believe go to another higher plane of existence (but still have freewill) so they again commit bad acts and have to accept belief to be saved, and on and on.

ShadowsDemon

That applies only to people who believe in the Trinity, dude....

i agree with him

[QUOTE="Bane_09"]

[QUOTE="KiIIyou"]Where you hear dis?mindstorm

Behaviorism and Neuroscience have definitely made freewill a questionable thing

No behavior can be changed and modified, those consequences exist for a reason. I don't exactly think there is no such thing as free will, just that we aren't as in control as we like to think.

[QUOTE="ShadowsDemon"]

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

So it seems circular to me. God creates someplace, sacrifices himself to himself to save us from himself, those who believe go to another higher plane of existence (but still have freewill) so they again commit bad acts and have to accept belief to be saved, and on and on.

CKYguy25

That applies only to people who believe in the Trinity, dude....

i agree with him

[QUOTE="Yusuke420"]I'm sorry I don't understand that at all, explain this "freed will". Not picking a fight, but I'm curious to hear this arguement as it is very rare to have people of faith actually have a conversation that might confict with their beliefs. mindstorm

I personally put a heavy emphasis on the idea that God is sovereign. The idea goes as this. We, all of humanity, are from conception tainted with sin. Sin is not simply bad things that we do but it is a part of our very essence. Sin is a curse that causes us to seek after a selfish will that seeks to make a name for ourselves rather than showing the greatness of God himself. We therefore seek after our pleasures and happiness in created things rather than the Creator himself. We therefore have confined wills, wills that are corrupted and not as powerful as we would like to believe. Ever wonder why you do the things that you do not want to do? This is why. We have wills and are responsible for our actions. However, our wills are burdened by the weight of sin.

God lifts that sin. Through this burden being lifted we can then finally seek after God. This is the "freed will" that I speak of. Through through power of God within us we are freed from the bondage of sin and are then capable of seeking after the good will of God our Father. This freedom is only partial in this life but is made complete at the return of Christ. In that day we will be given new bodies, new natures, and we will be able to freely do the will of God.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"] That personally sounds rather awesome in my opinion. You do realize that it is my desire to be, in a sense, a slave of God, correct? He is my Lord, my God, my savior, my king. It is my desire to submit my will to God and if that means I never have a will apart from his own, fantastic! I want my desires to be God's desires. Whatever logical consequence this has for the concept of my own free will is therefore almost irrelevant. Whatever God desires is infinitely better than anything I could ever hope to desire in and of myself. MirkoS77

Yes I understand how you can think this Mirko. It certainly sounds like being a slave would mean being in a prison. But the Bible says that we are slaves to Christ, and in so being we are truly free. Doesn't this seem odd? It sounds like a contradiction does it not? But as Mindstorm stated God made all human beings to worship Him, this is our true purpose; for our desires are to be what God desires. Because of original sin, the fall of mankind, we are all enslaved to sin and only desire evil but thanks to Jesus Christ and Him crucified we can be slaves to Him and desire the things of God which bring LIFE, this is no prison. It is true freedom. This is a weighty subject but God has not left us to ponder about these things. There are answers we just got to dig deep in the scriptures and rely on God to show us the depths of his character.

Yes I understand how you can think this Mirko. It certainly sounds like being a slave would mean being in a prison. But the Bible says that we are slaves to Christ, and in so being we are truly free. Doesn't this seem odd? It sounds like a contradiction does it not? But as Mindstorm stated God made all human beings to worship Him, this is our true purpose; for our desires are to be what God desires. Because of original sin, the fall of mankind, we are all enslaved to sin and only desire evil but thanks to Jesus Christ and Him crucified we can be slaves to Him and desire the things of God which bring LIFE, this is no prison. It is true freedom. This is a weighty subject but God has not left us to ponder about these things. There are answers we just got to dig deep in the scriptures and rely on God to show us the depths of his character.

GameGuy642003

I find it funny that Christians are so opposed to people wanting to follow their own selfish desires, yet that's the exact thing their Almighty god is demanding of His followers and that they themselves enable. I'm not exaggerating when I say this, but when I read Mindstorm's (and your reply to his post), I literally become nauseated. But if you and Mindstorm don't mind being slave, as I said, by all means. God comes off as a selfish, petty child. Look around you, nothing so magnificient could be created by such a pathetic creature.

Your argument is based upon the assumption that the Kingdom of God is strictly some physical place that all the good people go when they die. It's hard to accept that it is not the case; but the Kingdom of God is within us.

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

Yes I understand how you can think this Mirko. It certainly sounds like being a slave would mean being in a prison. But the Bible says that we are slaves to Christ, and in so being we are truly free. Doesn't this seem odd? It sounds like a contradiction does it not? But as Mindstorm stated God made all human beings to worship Him, this is our true purpose; for our desires are to be what God desires. Because of original sin, the fall of mankind, we are all enslaved to sin and only desire evil but thanks to Jesus Christ and Him crucified we can be slaves to Him and desire the things of God which bring LIFE, this is no prison. It is true freedom. This is a weighty subject but God has not left us to ponder about these things. There are answers we just got to dig deep in the scriptures and rely on God to show us the depths of his character.

MirkoS77

I find it funny that Christians are so opposed to people wanting to follow their own selfish desires, yet that's the exact thing their Almighty god is demanding of His followers and that they themselves enable. I'm not exaggerating when I say this, but when I read Mindstorm's (and your reply to his post), I literally become nauseated. But if you and Mindstorm don't mind being slave, as I said, by all means. God comes off as a selfish, petty child. Look around you, nothing so magnificient could be created by such a pathetic creature.