Does free will contradict God?

Well, here's how I saw it.

If God is all-knowing, he knows whether any person is going to end up in heaven or hell. Then, wouldn't this person not have free will because nothing he can do will change that result since God is perfect and never wrong?

Define your terms.

Well, here's how I saw it.

If God is all-knowing, he knows whether any person is going to end up in heaven or hell. Then, wouldn't this person not have free will because nothing he can do will change that result since God is perfect and never wrong?

unholymight

Well, technically, God knowing what you're going to do doesn't mean he's controlling it. He would just know what you're going to do before you do it, and do nothing to stop you.

What really makes free will a joke, has nothing to do with God (especially since God isn't real). It's the fact that every action is a reaction to the one before it, going all the way back to the first action, thus all life is predetermined.

And the thing that makes God a fantasy has nothing to do with the flawed concept of free will. I don't know why people always blur these lines.

EDIT - Why can't this glitchy website make paragraphs in quick quote 50% of the time? I'm sick of editing.

Well, here's how I saw it.

If God is all-knowing, he knows whether any person is going to end up in heaven or hell. Then, wouldn't this person not have free will because nothing he can do will change that result since God is perfect and never wrong?

I personally don't think so, even if he knows our choices, that's exactly what they are. OUR choices. 123625

God knows what you are going to do, yes. But he does not cause you to do it. He simply observes your actions. His prior knowledge does not cause you take that action.

I personally don't think so, even if he knows our choices, that's exactly what they are. OUR choices. 123625

[QUOTE="123625"]I personally don't think so, even if he knows our choices, that's exactly what they are. OUR choices. unholymight

God knows what you are going to do, yes. But he does not cause you to do it. He simply observes your actions. His prior knowledge does notcauseyou take that action.

smithster118

Actually, it would mean that he's controlling it. If God knows at this moment that you're going to each lunch at McDonalds tomorrow, then you will have no choice but to eat at McDonalds tomorrow. Since if you do anything else other than exactly what He predicted, you would be proving him wrong, which is technically impossible.unholymight

Then he knows who will go to hell before they are bornlonewolf604

Under the Christian definition of free will, I believe we do not have it. God may let you choose to worship him or not, but since you go to hell if you do not worship him, that's not free will. That's a test to see if you will worship.

[QUOTE="unholymight"][QUOTE="123625"]I personally don't think so, even if he knows our choices, that's exactly what they are. OUR choices. 123625

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"]Then he knows who will go to hell before they are born123625

[QUOTE="unholymight"]Actually, it would mean that he's controlling it. If God knows at this moment that you're going to each lunch at McDonalds tomorrow, then you will have no choice but to eat at McDonalds tomorrow. Since if you do anything else other than exactly what He predicted, you would be proving him wrong, which is technically impossible.The_Versatile

But it's no longer a choice. Say, for example, God knew before your birth that you were going to end up in heaven. Then, after birth, it would be impossible to make choices that are able to change that result.unholymight

[QUOTE="123625"][QUOTE="lonewolf604"]Then he knows who will go to hell before they are bornThe_Versatile

[QUOTE="unholymight"] But it's no longer a choice. Say, for example, God knew before your birth that you were going to end up in heaven. Then, after birth, it would be impossible to make choices that are able to change that result.123625

[QUOTE="The_Versatile"][QUOTE="123625"] If you beleive in that sort of thing... regardless I still beleive we still have free-will.123625

[QUOTE="The_Versatile"][QUOTE="unholymight"]Actually, it would mean that he's controlling it. If God knows at this moment that you're going to each lunch at McDonalds tomorrow, then you will have no choice but to eat at McDonalds tomorrow. Since if you do anything else other than exactly what He predicted, you would be proving him wrong, which is technically impossible.unholymight

[QUOTE="123625"][QUOTE="lonewolf604"]Then he knows who will go to hell before they are bornThe_Versatile

Then, if everything is predetermined, it could be argued that therefore everything has a purpose, I think.

[QUOTE="The_Versatile"][QUOTE="123625"] If you beleive in that sort of thing... regardless I still beleive we still have free-will.123625

[QUOTE="unholymight"][QUOTE="The_Versatile"] The reason you have no choice, is because it's all been predetermined, not because God knows you're going to do it. :roll:The_Versatile

It's only a choice if you had the freedom of deciding which option to take. Someone else made the decision for you, and you would only be following it.unholymight

[QUOTE="The_Versatile"][QUOTE="123625"] If you beleive in that sort of thing... regardless I still beleive we still have free-will.ImmoDuck

Then, if everything is predetermined, it could be argued that therefore everything has a purpose, I think.

[QUOTE="The_Versatile"][QUOTE="unholymight"] They're the same thing in this case.unholymight

[QUOTE="unholymight"] It's only a choice if you had the freedom of deciding which option to take. Someone else made the decision for you, and you would only be following it.The_Versatile

Does free will actually exist (under a few assumptions)?

Let us presume that God exists and is omniscient. Hence, God knows everything. Hence, God knows what will happen in the future. Hence, God knows exactly what a specific person will do at every moment in his or her life. Hence, the future is set, since it is already known.

So, under these circumstances, would it not be true that, since the future is set, free will does not exist?

chessmaster1989

Just throwing that out there. >_>

If a fortune-teller should know what you will do tomorrow, does this mean that your actions are compelled by his knowledge? Obviously not. The hypothetical fortune-teller merely "sees" into the future and observes the resul tof your choice. If God's knowledge of the future were to stem from His ability to "see" into the future, this would in no way affect man's freedom of choice.The paradox of divine foreknowledge and human choice is that God's knowledge of the future is not the product of future events, but a feature of His all-pervasive reality. Nothing exists outside of God; He is the cause of all, and nothing outside of Him is the cause for anything in Him.

[QUOTE="The_Versatile"][QUOTE="unholymight"] It's only a choice if you had the freedom of deciding which option to take. Someone else made the decision for you, and you would only be following it.unholymight

If a fortune-teller should know what you will do tomorrow, does this mean that your actions are compelled by his knowledge? Obviously not. The hypothetical fortune-teller merely "sees" into the future and observes the resul tof your choice. If God's knowledge of the future were to stem from His ability to "see" into the future, this would in no way affect man's freedom of choice.The paradox of divine foreknowledge and human choice is that God's knowledge of the future is not the product of future events, but a feature of His all-pervasive reality. Nothing exists outside of God; He is the cause of all, and nothing outside of Him is the cause for anything in Him.

smithster118

I personally don't think so, even if he knows our choices, that's exactly what they are. OUR choices. 123625

If a fortune-teller should know what you will do tomorrow, does this mean that your actions are compelled by his knowledge? Obviously not. The hypothetical fortune-teller merely "sees" into the future and observes the resul tof your choice. If God's knowledge of the future were to stem from His ability to "see" into the future, this would in no way affect man's freedom of choice.The paradox of divine foreknowledge and human choice is that God's knowledge of the future is not the product of future events, but a feature of His all-pervasive reality. Nothing exists outside of God; He is the cause of all, and nothing outside of Him is the cause for anything in Him.

smithster118

Well... being the Calvinist that I am I believe people have free will, but that free will is limited to one's nature. Two natures: the heart of stone and the heart of flesh. The heart of stone is totally against God and the only way that person can do anything for God is through God's direct working in his life. Once that nature changed, it becomes a heart of flesh which seeks to glorify God. Both natures have sin and both natures are capable of good. The difference is the desire of the heart and the heart of flesh has a "freed will." That is, only then does the individual have the complete choice as to whether or not he should sin. The spirit is made free, but the physical body still has some limitations. Only after the resurrection of the dead are sinless bodies given (1 Cor. 15). The following is some stuff I'm copying and pasting from Wikipedia in reference to the five-points of Calvinism. 1. The doctrine of total depravity (also called "total inability") asserts that, as a consequence of the fall of humanity into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.) 2. The doctrine of unconditional election asserts that God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone. 3. Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", the doctrine of limited atonement is the teaching that Jesus' substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its design and accomplishment. The doctrine is driven by the concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and the Calvinistic understanding of the nature of the atonement. Namely, Calvinists view the atonement as a penal substitution (that is, Jesus was punished in the place of sinners), and since, Calvinists argue, it would be unjust for God to pay the penalty for some people's sins and then still condemn them for those sins, all those whose sins were atoned for must necessarily be saved. 4. The doctrine of irresistible grace (also called "efficacious grace") asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. 5. Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints is also known as "eternal security." The word saints is used in the Biblical sense to refer to all who are set apart by God, not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven (see Saint). The doctrine asserts that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.mindstorm

[QUOTE="unholymight"][QUOTE="The_Versatile"] Like I just said, God knowing what you're going to do, does not equate to him making the decision for you. All-seeing knowledge of what will happen, does not mean you have control of the events. Just put yourself in those shoes... let's say you suddenly gain the ability to see all things before they happen. For example, you see that in 2010, there will be a great war between China and Russia where 100,000 people die. Just because you can see it happening ahead of time, doesn't mean you caused it, and it doesn't mean you can stop it from happening. God isn't real anyway, and no one makes choices, we only react to stimuli, which were sent our way as a reaction from the stimuli preceding that.The_Versatile

God gave us free will because He loves us so much, and forcing us to love Him would be similar to rape, so He told Adam and Eve that they could do whatever they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge, and if they loved Him, they wouldn't have eaten from the tree.

It is unknown to me how God knows the future, and it is beyond human intelligence to comprehend it, if He does (and I believe He does).

[QUOTE="smithster118"]

If a fortune-teller should know what you will do tomorrow, does this mean that your actions are compelled by his knowledge? Obviously not. The hypothetical fortune-teller merely "sees" into the future and observes the resul tof your choice. If God's knowledge of the future were to stem from His ability to "see" into the future, this would in no way affect man's freedom of choice.The paradox of divine foreknowledge and human choice is that God's knowledge of the future is not the product of future events, but a feature of His all-pervasive reality. Nothing exists outside of God; He is the cause of all, and nothing outside of Him is the cause for anything in Him.

The_Versatile

[QUOTE="unholymight"] It's only a choice if you had the freedom of deciding which option to take. Someone else made the decision for you, and you would only be following it.The_Versatile

Dude... you really should try thinking for yourself. You might like it. All you ever do is make excuses for what you were taught, even when there's obvious inaccuracies. Don't you ever feel guilty playing that game? C'mon...The_Versatile

I do think for myself... I was just too lazy to write all that myself...

I don't follow everything John Calvin did, just a lot of it. :P I'm technically considered a New Calvinist.

God gave us free will because He loves us so much, and forcing us to love Him would be similar to rape, so He told Adam and Eve that they could do whatever they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge, and if they loved Him, they wouldn't have eaten from the tree.

It is unknown to me how God knows the future, and it is beyond human intelligence to comprehend it, if He does (and I believe He does).

AYBABTme