Do you think it's possible..

For someone to learn how to draw and paint? I'm not a very good artist at all, but is it possible to develop in the skill and become an above average artist? Or is it just something certain people can just do naturally and others can't?

Yeah.

Anyone can learn to draw and paint. Artistic vision though is something you either have or you don't.

It's not possible for me.

Yeah of course. There is even classes for it, but to be a good artist you don't have to be able to just draw well. You can be the worst drawer/painter and still make a successful artwork, just need imagination and a concept :)

Anyone could learn any art if enough effort is put into it.

Yeah of course. There is even classes for it, but to be a good artist you don't have to be able to just draw well. You can be the worst drawer/painter and still make a successful artwork, just need imagination and a concept :)

MrsSolidSnake

Anyone can learn to draw and paint. Artistic vision though is something you either have or you don't.

Pirate700

[QUOTE="MrsSolidSnake"]

Yeah of course. There is even classes for it, but to be a good artist you don't have to be able to just draw well. You can be the worst drawer/painter and still make a successful artwork, just need imagination and a concept :)

harashawn

Yeah of course. There is even classes for it, but to be a good artist you don't have to be able to just draw well. You can be the worst drawer/painter and still make a successful artwork, just need imagination and a concept :)

Drawing and painting is just like playing a musical instrument, it gets better with practice. Ofcourse it comes easier to some people, but with enough practice you can be great.

[QUOTE="harashawn"][QUOTE="MrsSolidSnake"]

Yeah of course. There is even classes for it, but to be a good artist you don't have to be able to just draw well. You can be the worst drawer/painter and still make a successful artwork, just need imagination and a concept :)

MrsSolidSnake

Where does art end and crap begin?

That is a serious question.

For someone to learn how to draw and paint? I'm not a very good artist at all, but is it possible to develop in the skill and become an above average artist? Or is it just something certain people can just do naturally and others can't?

munkey102

If learning how to use a computer is possible, then I'm pretty sure it's possible to learn how to use a pencil and a paintbrush.

There's certainly natural talent, and many people will never be good in certain things, no matter how hard they try. But for most things, most people can get to average competency just by working at it.

I dunno, what are you asking? If you're asking whether or not your drawings and paintings will ever be exhibited in museums or appreciated after you've died, then the answer is probably "no". If you're simply asking if you can get good enough to have a normal Average Joe loom at your work and say, "dang, that's pretty good", then the answer is probably "yes".

Artistic vision though is something you either have or you don't.

Pirate700

How do you figure?

As an art major, it might come as a shock that I don't believe there's such a thing as natural talent when it comes to the arts. Why is it that everyone always says I have a natural talent simply because I make good art? Was I born that way? Not at all. It may seem I was born that way, but the reason why I've always been good at art is because I grew an interest in the medium at such an early age in life and set a goal for myself to get better, and maintain that interest and dedication up to this point and counting. I've had all the time in my life to get good at art. How does anyone get good at playing a guitar, or doing tricks on a skateboard? It's not just natural talent; it's time and dedication. So at your age, you may think you're too old and bad at art, but it's never too late to grow some dedication towards the medium.

You can teach people techniques... but art demands creativity... and you cant teach creativity.

if you understand the basics of a pencil and paintbrush... and you arent creating art, you probably never will.

You can teach people techniques... but art demands creativity... and you cant teach creativity.

if you understand the basics of a pencil and paintbrush... and you arent creating art, you probably never will.

markinthedark

I hear and see people saying that a lot, but I'd like to actually see some evidence supporting it.

[QUOTE="MrsSolidSnake"][QUOTE="harashawn"] Yes, just nail a potato to a board and call it art. You'll make millions!harashawn

As an art major, it might come as a shock that I don't believe there's such a thing as natural talent when it comes to the arts. Why is it that everyone always says I have a natural talent simply because I make good art? Was I born that way? Not at all. It may seem I was born that way, but the reason why I've always been good at art is because I grew an interest in the medium at such an early age in life and set a goal for myself to get better, and maintain that interest and dedication up to this point and counting. I've had all the time in my life to get good at art. How does anyone get good at playing a guitar, or doing tricks on a skateboard? It's not just natural talent; it's time and dedication. So at your age, you may think you're too old and bad at art, but it's never too late to grow some dedication towards the medium.

Nerd_Man

you are talking about developing motor skills though. Most folks already have the motor skills to use a pencil or paintbrush... just from learning to write. What makes a good artist has nothing to do with how well they can hold a stick of wood.

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

You can teach people techniques... but art demands creativity... and you cant teach creativity.

if you understand the basics of a pencil and paintbrush... and you arent creating art, you probably never will.

MrGeezer

I hear and see people saying that a lot, but I'd like to actually see some evidence supporting it.

how would you go about teaching creativity? if you are saying its possible... how would you do it?

creativity in essence, is thinking of things people havent thought of before... its impossible to teach something that hasnt been thought of yet.

[QUOTE="Nerd_Man"]

As an art major, it might come as a shock that I don't believe there's such a thing as natural talent when it comes to the arts. Why is it that everyone always says I have a natural talent simply because I make good art? Was I born that way? Not at all. It may seem I was born that way, but the reason why I've always been good at art is because I grew an interest in the medium at such an early age in life and set a goal for myself to get better, and maintain that interest and dedication up to this point and counting. I've had all the time in my life to get good at art. How does anyone get good at playing a guitar, or doing tricks on a skateboard? It's not just natural talent; it's time and dedication. So at your age, you may think you're too old and bad at art, but it's never too late to grow some dedication towards the medium.

markinthedark

you are talking about developing motor skills though. Most folks already have the motor skills to use a pencil or paintbrush... just from learning to write. What makes a good artist has nothing to do with how well they can hold a stick of wood.

Yeah you can learn to draw and paint well if that's what you're asking. Maybe it might take you longer than some others, but don't let that stop you. Just keep practicing and progressing and you'll most definitely see improvement. Don't get discouraged either if what you had in mind doesn't turn out that way when you execute it. :P You'll get the hang of it eventually. You can even work on your creativity. Read and learn about art history and about artists in the present to inspire and influence you and it could help you come up up with your own style.

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="Nerd_Man"]

As an art major, it might come as a shock that I don't believe there's such a thing as natural talent when it comes to the arts. Why is it that everyone always says I have a natural talent simply because I make good art? Was I born that way? Not at all. It may seem I was born that way, but the reason why I've always been good at art is because I grew an interest in the medium at such an early age in life and set a goal for myself to get better, and maintain that interest and dedication up to this point and counting. I've had all the time in my life to get good at art. How does anyone get good at playing a guitar, or doing tricks on a skateboard? It's not just natural talent; it's time and dedication. So at your age, you may think you're too old and bad at art, but it's never too late to grow some dedication towards the medium.

Nerd_Man

you are talking about developing motor skills though. Most folks already have the motor skills to use a pencil or paintbrush... just from learning to write. What makes a good artist has nothing to do with how well they can hold a stick of wood.

to be perfectly honest... if you were going to learn how to be a successful artist... it should probably be done by a mathematician or scientist. As they could formulate scientific studies and equations based on past great artists to come up with art scenarios that would have a high probability of being viewed as good art.

I certainly wouldnt trust an artist.

Im a huge math/science freak... so i guarantee somewhere there could be an equation that can predict good art by using historic evidence and contemporary social views... to figure out what art style has the highest success rate of being considered art. But mathematicians and scientists arent the folks teaching our art classes.... they are mostly being taught by artists that failed to make it.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

You can teach people techniques... but art demands creativity... and you cant teach creativity.

if you understand the basics of a pencil and paintbrush... and you arent creating art, you probably never will.

markinthedark

I hear and see people saying that a lot, but I'd like to actually see some evidence supporting it.

how would you go about teaching creativity? if you are saying its possible... how would you do it?

creativity in essence, is thinking of things people havent thought of before... its impossible to teach something that hasnt been thought of yet.

Well firstly, I didn't say that teaching creativity is possible. Instead, you said that it ISN'T possible.

So...let's start with that. You made the claim, so I'd like to see something to actually support it.

Secondly, I take offense to that from the point of view of people who are actually TRYING to think more creatively about their "art". Like, once we establish that ANYONE can learn how to manipulate a brush or or pencil, then suddenly te only difference between great artists and bad artists are things such as vision, concept, etc. The thing is, you're claiming that those things CANNOT BE LEARNED, thus implying that the artist did NO WORK WHATSOEVER in developing a certain concept, idea, or creative vision. Put that dude's painting right beside an equally skilled painting done by an artist who lacks creative vision, and the claim you are making is that those two artists are EQUAL in terms of their active involvement in their respective works of art. You're recognizing that one work of art is better, while failing to give the artist any credit for it. You're saying that he didn't pour his blood sweat, and tears into it, that he wasn't tormented and haunted by the concept or vision. That all of that stuff just HAPPENED without him having to do anything. Despite one work of art being better, you're therefore saying that the ARTISTS are 100% equal in talent just because they are both equalled in one specific commonality (that is, their skills with a brush). Saying that people cannot improve and develop creatively is ABSOLUTELY diminishing the accomplishments of artists who make creative and compelling works of art. That is ABSOLUTELY saying that they didn't put anything into that happening, but that it just plain happened without any active contribution on their parts. And...I suspect that you'll find a HELL of a lot of artists who'd object to that attitude.

[QUOTE="Nerd_Man"][QUOTE="markinthedark"]

you are talking about developing motor skills though. Most folks already have the motor skills to use a pencil or paintbrush... just from learning to write. What makes a good artist has nothing to do with how well they can hold a stick of wood.

markinthedark

to be perfectly honest... if you were going to learn how to be a successful artist... it should probably be done by a mathematician or scientist. As they could formulate scientific studies and equations based on past great artists to come up with art scenarios that would have a high probability of being viewed as good art.

I certainly wouldnt trust an artist.

Im a huge math/science freak... so i guarantee somewhere there could be an equation that can predict good art by using historic evidence and contemporary social views... to figure out what art style has the highest success rate of being considered art. But mathematicians and scientists arent the folks teaching our art classes.... they are mostly being taught by artists that failed to make it.

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="Nerd_Man"] You speak one can't teach creativity; and while that's true, creativity is strictly one's perspective on what such a thing is. What's one's masterpiece can be a bland piece of junk to another.Nerd_Man

to be perfectly honest... if you were going to learn how to be a successful artist... it should probably be done by a mathematician or scientist. As they could formulate scientific studies and equations based on past great artists to come up with art scenarios that would have a high probability of being viewed as good art.

I certainly wouldnt trust an artist.

Im a huge math/science freak... so i guarantee somewhere there could be an equation that can predict good art by using historic evidence and contemporary social views... to figure out what art style has the highest success rate of being considered art. But mathematicians and scientists arent the folks teaching our art classes.... they are mostly being taught by artists that failed to make it.

I disagree.

They are different in many important aspects, but art is HEAVILY dependant on science and math. Ever notice how Leonardo Davinci was also interested in science and math? Ever notice how some of the highly praised photographers like Ansel Adams did extensive personal study on light and optics? Ever noticed how some great works of art were actually deliberately designed around certain mathematical concepts/formulas/ratios?

They're not the same thing, and shouldn't be treated as if they are the same thing. But it is simply wrong to say that they do not heavily tie together.

[QUOTE="Nerd_Man"][QUOTE="markinthedark"]

to be perfectly honest... if you were going to learn how to be a successful artist... it should probably be done by a mathematician or scientist. As they could formulate scientific studies and equations based on past great artists to come up with art scenarios that would have a high probability of being viewed as good art.

I certainly wouldnt trust an artist.

Im a huge math/science freak... so i guarantee somewhere there could be an equation that can predict good art by using historic evidence and contemporary social views... to figure out what art style has the highest success rate of being considered art. But mathematicians and scientists arent the folks teaching our art classes.... they are mostly being taught by artists that failed to make it.

MrGeezer

I disagree.

They are different in many important aspects, but art is HEAVILY dependant on science and math. Ever notice how Leonardo Davinci was also interested in science and math? Ever notice how some of the highly praised photographers like Ansel Adams did extensive personal study on light and optics? Ever noticed how some great works of art were actually deliberately designed around certain mathematical concepts/formulas/ratios?

They're not the same thing, and shouldn't be treated as if they are the same thing. But it is simply wrong to say that they do not heavily tie together.

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="Nerd_Man"] You speak one can't teach creativity; and while that's true, creativity is strictly one's perspective on what such a thing is. What's one's masterpiece can be a bland piece of junk to another.Nerd_Man

to be perfectly honest... if you were going to learn how to be a successful artist... it should probably be done by a mathematician or scientist. As they could formulate scientific studies and equations based on past great artists to come up with art scenarios that would have a high probability of being viewed as good art.

I certainly wouldnt trust an artist.

Im a huge math/science freak... so i guarantee somewhere there could be an equation that can predict good art by using historic evidence and contemporary social views... to figure out what art style has the highest success rate of being considered art. But mathematicians and scientists arent the folks teaching our art classes.... they are mostly being taught by artists that failed to make it.

Why is that? how do you think our brains functions? did you not like my post... you ran an internal mathematical and logical process that made you come up with that conclusion.

Your brain took prior knowledge and experiences and computed an opinion that would reflect those factors. How do you think the FBI manages to create profiles on criminals? they use logistical and mathematic data to figure out the what types of individuals commit certain types of crimes.

Your brain works on math, everyone's brain works on math. Everytime you press a key to reply to this post, your brain is processing visual and known data and which physical response results in which keypress and calculating spacial distance to make that keypress happen.

[QUOTE="Nerd_Man"][QUOTE="markinthedark"]

to be perfectly honest... if you were going to learn how to be a successful artist... it should probably be done by a mathematician or scientist. As they could formulate scientific studies and equations based on past great artists to come up with art scenarios that would have a high probability of being viewed as good art.

I certainly wouldnt trust an artist.

Im a huge math/science freak... so i guarantee somewhere there could be an equation that can predict good art by using historic evidence and contemporary social views... to figure out what art style has the highest success rate of being considered art. But mathematicians and scientists arent the folks teaching our art classes.... they are mostly being taught by artists that failed to make it.

markinthedark

Why is that? how do you think our brains functions? did you not like my post... you ran an internal mathematical and logical process that made you come up with that conclusion.

Your brain took prior knowledge and experiences and computed an opinion that would reflect those factors. How do you think the FBI manages to create profiles on criminals? they use logistical and mathematic data to figure out the what types of individuals commit certain types of crimes.

Your brain works on math, everyone's brain works on math. Everytime you press a key to reply to this post, your brain is processing visual and known data and which physical response results in which keypress and calculating spacial distance to make that keypress happen.

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

I hear and see people saying that a lot, but I'd like to actually see some evidence supporting it.

MrGeezer

how would you go about teaching creativity? if you are saying its possible... how would you do it?

creativity in essence, is thinking of things people havent thought of before... its impossible to teach something that hasnt been thought of yet.

Well firstly, I didn't say that teaching creativity is possible. Instead, you said that it ISN'T possible.

So...let's start with that. You made the claim, so I'd like to see something to actually support it.

Secondly, I take offense to that from the point of view of people who are actually TRYING to think more creatively about their "art". Like, once we establish that ANYONE can learn how to manipulate a brush or or pencil, then suddenly te only difference between great artists and bad artists are things such as vision, concept, etc. The thing is, you're claiming that those things CANNOT BE LEARNED, thus implying that the artist did NO WORK WHATSOEVER in developing a certain concept, idea, or creative vision. Put that dude's painting right beside an equally skilled painting done by an artist who lacks creative vision, and the claim you are making is that those two artists are EQUAL in terms of their active involvement in their respective works of art. You're recognizing that one work of art is better, while failing to give the artist any credit for it. You're saying that he didn't pour his blood sweat, and tears into it, that he wasn't tormented and haunted by the concept or vision. That all of that stuff just HAPPENED without him having to do anything. Despite one work of art being better, you're therefore saying that the ARTISTS are 100% equal in talent just because they are both equalled in one specific commonality (that is, their skills with a brush). Saying that people cannot improve and develop creatively is ABSOLUTELY diminishing the accomplishments of artists who make creative and compelling works of art. That is ABSOLUTELY saying that they didn't put anything into that happening, but that it just plain happened without any active contribution on their parts. And...I suspect that you'll find a HELL of a lot of artists who'd object to that attitude.

Im saying.... if we both have visions of art in our head. And we both have the motor coordination and skills to put them on paper. You cant teach how to have a better vision in your head.

whats in your mind will be better than whats in my mind, or vice versa.

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="Nerd_Man"] Do not compare math and science with art, or even attempt to tie them together. Art is the polar opposite of the logic that goes into math and science.Nerd_Man

Why is that? how do you think our brains functions? did you not like my post... you ran an internal mathematical and logical process that made you come up with that conclusion.

Your brain took prior knowledge and experiences and computed an opinion that would reflect those factors. How do you think the FBI manages to create profiles on criminals? they use logistical and mathematic data to figure out the what types of individuals commit certain types of crimes.

Your brain works on math, everyone's brain works on math. Everytime you press a key to reply to this post, your brain is processing visual and known data and which physical response results in which keypress and calculating spacial distance to make that keypress happen.

well i think creativity could be quantified. But i think as a species we tend to celebrate individualism, especially with art. I mean... if it was strictly a motor function... the best artist would be the person that could produce the most photorealistic painting/drawing.... but thats obviously not the case.

I actually dont need an art class, growing up i was always the best artist in my class... with no training. I dont even have very good motor skills... i just excelled at putting that image in my head onto paper, or clay... or whatever medium. Im my family, my grandfather was a painter, my uncle is a painter, and another uncle is a nationally syndicated cartoonist.

it seems at least in the art world, what is appreciated is what goes against the grain.

[QUOTE="harashawn"][QUOTE="MrsSolidSnake"] That could actually be a successful work, you know. I saw one which was just a blue line on white canvas in a gallery.MrsSolidSnake

Yes, good art is a matter of perception, and there's the fact that practice makes prefect.

All I know is that my drawing and design skills have gone dramatically down since the many years I stopped taking any form of art class.

Anyone can learn to draw and paint. Artistic vision though is something you either have or you don't.

Pirate700