okay I saw this article that claimed that one day Bush's legacy will improve. Heck, even Joe Biden is claiming that the Iraq war is a success.
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Yeah History will likely be slightly kinder to Bush then we were doing his presidency. He's still a loon in my book though.
yup.Yeah History will likely be slightly kinder to Bush then we were doing his presidency. He's still a loon in my book though.
MystikFollower
[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]History will likely remember the Bush presidency because of Cheney, not Bush. I think practically every criticism of Bush's administration links to the actions of Cheney. He's pretty much Darth vader. Sajo7And Donal Rumsfeld. Oh dear. And liberals complain that people call Obama names!
Why? Because Laura Bush wrote a book?Sajo71. The situation in Iraq is improving, if Iraq becomes a stable democracy that will be a huge accomplishment. 2. We don't know when the recession will end, if it ends relatively quickly it won't as bad for people as it currently does. 3. His work in the Clinton-Bush Haiti fund will help improve his image 4. Historians will see the massive success of Bush's PEPFAR initiative.
[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]History will likely remember the Bush presidency because of Cheney, not Bush. I think practically every criticism of Bush's administration links to the actions of Cheney. He's pretty much Darth vader. Sajo7And Donal Rumsfeld. Oh dear. And Karl Rove.
Anyway, I'd be happy to see Bush's legacy be a bit more favorable. I'd like to think that almost every president contributed something good for this country.
And Donal Rumsfeld. Oh dear. And Karl Rove.[QUOTE="Sajo7"][QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]History will likely remember the Bush presidency because of Cheney, not Bush. I think practically every criticism of Bush's administration links to the actions of Cheney. He's pretty much Darth vader. PannicAtack
Anyway, I'd be happy to see Bush's legacy be a bit more favorable. I'd like to think that almost every president contributed something good for this country.
Me too.And Donal Rumsfeld. Oh dear. And Karl Rove.[QUOTE="Sajo7"][QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]History will likely remember the Bush presidency because of Cheney, not Bush. I think practically every criticism of Bush's administration links to the actions of Cheney. He's pretty much Darth vader. PannicAtack
Anyway, I'd be happy to see Bush's legacy be a bit more favorable. I'd like to think that almost every president contributed something good for this country.
He did some good things. His management of combating AIDS in Africa is commendable, I don't think any other president has put forth the same effort.And Donal Rumsfeld. Oh dear. And liberals complain that people call Obama names! I dont really mind teh name calling because there really uncreative names like o bomb us I do have a problem with the term kool aid I think that is bigotry at its finest[QUOTE="Sajo7"][QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]History will likely remember the Bush presidency because of Cheney, not Bush. I think practically every criticism of Bush's administration links to the actions of Cheney. He's pretty much Darth vader. whipassmt
[QUOTE="whipassmt"]And liberals complain that people call Obama names! I dont really mind teh name calling because there really uncreative names like o bomb us I do have a problem with the term kool aid I think that is bigotry at its finest Where did the kool aid term even come from, I've never understood the reference/joke behind it.[QUOTE="Sajo7"] And Donal Rumsfeld. Oh dear.Snakewiseman
If it does improve it shouldn't, he really is a bottom fiver. First off, I've never really understood why so-called fiscal conservatives are trying to get his reputation to improve. If you want to go forward on a platform of fiscal conservency fine, but why in the hell would you be fighting to improve the image of a man who let lapse a provision that required all new spending to be accounted for in the budget with either a tax increase or budget cut elsewhere and who spearheaded two new wars and medicare part D without finding funding for them? I find it suprememly ironic that people who are trying to crucify Obama for his role in health care legislation that actually changes the way the system operates are trying to resurrect Bush's reputation even though that man expanded socialized medicine in a way that did nothing but give more money to drug companies.
I also think that as time goes on people start to lose perspective on certain issues, things that once outraged people seem less important now because they are so distant. Doesn't change the fact that they happened and doesn't make them any less important. Let's go down the list: He started an illegal war under false pretenses that has cost countless lives of both American soldiers and Iraqi civilians; he was advised that the war would cost far more than people were estimating and when he was advised so he threw advisors out of his close circle until he got ones that told him what he wanted to hear; he appointed a bunch of cronies of his to high positions in his administration including Donald Rumsfeld (Who decided to supply the troops in the ill-conceived war with sub-par equipment), Dick Cheney (who took more liberties with his position than were intended and benefitted greatly from contracting his former company out to do work in Iraq; and Alberto Gonzales (Who did fine work undermining basic rights of citizens). Anyone saying the blame really goes to people like this, it goes just as much to Bush for putting them in positions of power and sitting by while they used their positions to benefit themselves and their agenda; He spearheaded the Patriot Act, the biggest repeal of basic American rights ever; He broke international law on torture and authorized the use of illegal practices; He gave intelligence officials free reign in places like Guantanamo and Abu-Graihb and turned a blind eye to what they were doing; He made campaign promises of climate reform and then went back on that, appointing fossil fuel industry lobbyists to key energey positions; He had key bungles during crisis moments like 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina and response to the latter was disastrous at best; He enacted fiscal policy that was politically savvy at the time but damaging in the long run (unnecessary tax cuts, medicare part D), not to mention spearheaded deregulation that the guru of conservative economics over the past 20 years, Alan Greenspan, admitted helped lead to the financial crisis.
As for Iraq, if you think it's getting better than you're not really paying attention. Violence there is getting worse by the day, attacks are on the rise, and their democracy is shaky at best. The region has been a contentious one for a very long time, we can't just show up, snap our fingers, and make everything all better. As soon as we dial down troops, violence kicks back up. That's the way it's going to be, peace doesn't just come overnight. Even if it does turn out to be a success, that doesn't speak to the benefit of Bush at all. It didn't start to become a success until after he left office, and even if we are able to salvage the situation that he left us that still doesn't justify our being there in the first place when we had no right to be. He still instigated a war under false pretenses, he still benefitted greatly from that war, and that is still a slight to him and his policy during office.
As for comparing him to Obama, that's a faulty line of reasoning to begin with, as using that reasoning will mean that only the current president will be subject to criticism over excessive spending, the previous president will be exonerated based on the increased spending of his successor. I guess really we shouldn't be going after Obama, we should be going after whoever succeeds him as President. Furthermore, Bush inherited economic prosperity and he decided to decrease taxes for the top income earners in this country despite the need for that revenue source to support his agenda. Obama has inherited the Bush tax rate, which hopefully he will raise to a reasonable level, he has inherited two expensive wars, and he has inherited the largest projections for medicare and medicaid spending ever. The difference is that Bush didn't have to spend money, he could have kept taxes where they were or decreased the scale of his own plans for spending. Obama had to spend money to resuscitate a dying economy, kickstart projects that would put people back to work and build new eco-friendly energy systems for our country, fix a health system that would not only cost Americans more and more as time went on but would cost teh government exponentially more, and ensure that institutions that employed countless middle-cla$$ Americans didn't go out of business so that the tailspin the economy was in at the time didn't get that much worse. Obama was backed into a corner when it came to spending, Bush wasn't, that was the difference.
[QUOTE="Snakewiseman"][QUOTE="whipassmt"] And liberals complain that people call Obama names!I dont really mind teh name calling because there really uncreative names like o bomb us I do have a problem with the term kool aid I think that is bigotry at its finest Where did the kool aid term even come from, I've never understood the reference/joke behind it.Sajo7
It's a reference to the Jonestown Massacre, a mass suicide that was committed by drinking Kool-Aid (I think they found out it was really Flavor-Aid) laced with cyanide.
It's a reference to the Jonestown Massacre, a mass suicide that was committed by drinking Kool-Aid (I think they found out it was really Flavor-Aid) laced with cyanide.I see. Kind of an extreme comparison, but then again people usually coincide the phrase with President so-and-so will bring about the destruction of the nation.theone86
I see. Kind of an extreme comparison, but then again people usually coincide the phrase with President so-and-so will bring about the destruction of the nation. I just figured it was because he is a.....person, and we all know.....people drink Kool Aid and eat watermelon. (There is no racism here; doesn't everyone love Kool Aid and watermelon?)[QUOTE="theone86"]It's a reference to the Jonestown Massacre, a mass suicide that was committed by drinking Kool-Aid (I think they found out it was really Flavor-Aid) laced with cyanide.
Sajo7
[QUOTE="Sajo7"]I see. Kind of an extreme comparison, but then again people usually coincide the phrase with President so-and-so will bring about the destruction of the nation. I just figured it was because he is a.....person, and we all know.....people drink Kool Aid and eat watermelon. (There is no racism here; doesn't everyone love Kool Aid and watermelon?) This is getting a little deep. :P[QUOTE="theone86"]It's a reference to the Jonestown Massacre, a mass suicide that was committed by drinking Kool-Aid (I think they found out it was really Flavor-Aid) laced with cyanide.
jalexbrown
I think we'll have a better perspective on W once we get a grip on where his administration fits in the context of history. The same way that the 1990s highlighted the positive aspects of a post-Cold War world, the 9/11 attacks highlighted its dangers. The rapid liberalization and private investment taking place in Russia after the Soviet Collapse was halted upon Putin's coming to power, and Russia went down a course that emphasized restoring national pride and making the country a major player again. Without the mutual threat of the Soviet Union, Western Europe started to distance itself from the United States, as highlighted by the lukewarm response of European countries to the invasion of Afghanistan and especially Iraq.
I think some kind of concensus is being reached over the War on Terror. After eight years of protesting the Patriot Act under Bush, no one said a thing when Congress re-authorized it under Obama. Obama knows that he cannot leave Afghanistan, and Biden said that victory in Iraq will be one of Obama's great accoplishments.
okay I saw this article that claimed that one day Bush's legacy will improve. Heck, even Joe Biden is claiming that the Iraq war is a success.
whipassmt
Well, I think the people in New York City felt pretty damn good when they looked up and saw the jet fighters from two CTGs flying combat air patrol over the skyline.
He did keep us from getting hit again for 7 years - and that in and of itself is a great accomplishment when at times all you have to go on is one shred of intel.
And it says something when the first thing said to Bush at the WTC was "Go get 'em, George!".
I think some kind of concensus is being reached over the War on Terror. After eight years of protesting the Patriot Act under Bush, no one said a thing when Congress re-authorized it under Obama. Obama knows that he cannot leave Afghanistan, and Biden said that victory in Iraq will be one of Obama's great accoplishments.
fidosim
First off, that says nothing about the war on terror, there are so many aspects to that situation that making that assertation is nothing less than an outright lie. Second, there are plenty of people saying plenty of things about the renewal of the Patriot Act, ESPECIALLY people on the left. The problem is that the so-called liberal media has done absolutely nothing to cover the people who are rallying against it, guess it just doesn't fit into their socialist agenda, huh?
He did keep us from getting hit again for 7 years - and that in and of itself is a great accomplishment when at times all you have to go on is one shred of intel.topsemag55
I really love how we were attacked during HIS presidency due in part to intelligence failures, and yet he always gets credit for keeping us safe. There hasn't been a successful attack during the Obama administration either, doesn't he get credit for that? And overall Obama has been much more well-received by the entire world and less adversarial in his foreign relations than George Bush, I'd say that makes us a whole hell of a lot safer than having a Cowboy who thinks we need to police the world in charge.
I don't like his "compassionate" conservatism. I do agree that we needed social security reform but the whole thing was played into "HE'S GONNA KILL OLD PEOPLE! BUSH-HITLER!!!" I guess the same goes for Obama and for every president who will constantly be compared to Hitler for attempting to do something to help the country. I think time will tell for Bush. He wasn't the best but he certainly wasn't the worst person on Earth.
It is possible, but I sorta doubt it. Considering that he ran on a platform of fiscal conservatism, small government and less international military intervention then did the opposite on all accounts, I still have difficulty understanding why conservatives try to patronize him. I suppose that I agree with him for not pulling out of Iraq once we were in there, but I believe that starting the war was a grave mistake, and am still unsure precisely why the war was started in the first place. I am not a huge fan of his expansion of medicare. While tax cuts are nice and all, equivalent spending cuts are necessary to go along with it. I suppose that partially I agree with his stance on immigration reform, but it never was accomplished. Long story short, I see little reason for the right, including myself, to defend many of his actions. That is all that I have to say on the matter.
First off, that says nothing about the war on terror, there are so many aspects to that situation that making that assertation is nothing less than an outright lie. Second, there are plenty of people saying plenty of things about the renewal of the Patriot Act, ESPECIALLY people on the left. The problem is that the so-called liberal media has done absolutely nothing to cover the people who are rallying against it, guess it just doesn't fit into their socialist agenda, huh?theone86
The Patriot Act, and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have nothing to do with the War on Terror? Alright. President Obama signed the Patriot Act. Some people on the left voted against it, but we haven't seen the vocal outcry that we saw during the Bush years, and that is because Obama, to the left, is an acceptable leader. Obama signed the Act because he, like Bush, realizes that we need to improve and update our national security system to combat the threat of terrorism.
I really love how we were attacked during HIS presidency due in part to intelligence failures, and yet he always gets credit for keeping us safe. There hasn't been a successful attack during the Obama administration either, doesn't he get credit for that? And overall Obama has been much more well-received by the entire world and less adversarial in his foreign relations than George Bush, I'd say that makes us a whole hell of a lot safer than having a Cowboy who thinks we need to police the world in charge.theone86
Bush inherited a national security situation that was not equipped to meet the threat of terrorism. He took steps to change that, and they were long overdue. In 1993, terrorists attacked the World Trade Center. In 1998 they bombed our embassy in Nairobi. In 2000 they bombed the USS Cole. Finally, in 2001, the first year of Bush's presidency, they carried out the first attack on the mainland United States since the War of 1812. All of these attacks were carried out by the same network, and we didn't take any significant action. We have not been attacked since then, and the Bush administration deserves some credit. Let's make no mistake here; we are no more safe right now, for all of Obama's apologies and sucking-up, than we were on January 19, 2009. He is villified by Al-Qaeda and other organizations just as Bush was. Just a few weeks ago, Ahmadi in Iran accused Obama of using "Cowboy" diplomacy. Hugs and handshakes aren't going to make our adversaries respect us, nor will they keep us safe.
Look how the "rebound" that got Scott Brown voted in happened- he voted with the Democrats every time! Ha ha! Life always happens in cycles of highs and lows, but hopefully the right-wing entity will be severely muted during their next calculated "high point".
I don't think he will be remembered very favorably, nor should he. He just wasn't that great a president. I think history will look at him as a sort of tragic hero - a man with good intentions but lacking intellectually, and met and delegated power to the wrong people. -Sun_Tzu-I somewhat agree, but for different reasons. I don't think it has much to do with a lack of intelligence (although Bushisms will always be remembered), or with who he delegated authority to. The "tragedy" of the Bush presidency is that it campaigned for and came into office with NO intention on pursuing an ambitious foreign policy or even focusing much on foreign affairs at all, yet events caused foreign affairs to consume his presidency. I don't remember the specifics about this, but I read about a poll that was taken during the 2000 election that ranked what people thought were the most important issues of the time were - foreign affairs came in something like 22nd place.
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]I don't think he will be remembered very favorably, nor should he. He just wasn't that great a president. I think history will look at him as a sort of tragic hero - a man with good intentions but lacking intellectually, and met and delegated power to the wrong people. fidosimI somewhat agree, but for different reasons. I don't think it has much to do with a lack of intelligence (although Bushisms will always be remembered), or with who he delegated authority to. The "tragedy" of the Bush presidency is that it campaigned for and came into office with NO intention on pursuing an ambitious foreign policy or even focusing much on foreign affairs at all, yet events caused foreign affairs to consume his presidency. I don't remember the specifics about this, but I read about a poll that was taken during the 2000 election that ranked what people thought were the most important issues of the time were - foreign affairs came in something like 22nd place. There is truth to that. Bush ran in 2000 as a non-interventionalist and criticized Al Gore for the nation building that was done by the Clinton Administration in the Balkans (although you have to question the genuineness of this critique on Gore considering how he appointed men like Paul Wolfowitz to his administration). I think 9/11 really shocked Bush and a lot of the people around him, which in turned made them consider and enact many radical policies to make sure there wasn't going to be another attack (many of which weren't exactly harmonious with the law). But I still believe that had people like Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld not had Bush's ear, his legacy would be better.
Bush seems like a pretty cool dude to go sit around and talk with...roflCHOASXIIIThis. I wanna hang out with him.
Victory in Iraq will be one of Obama's accomplishments? What has Obama done in Iraq, he tried to stop the surge as Senator, now he's letting the Bush plan run its course. And I didn't know Congress reauthorized the Patriot Act under Obama, but it did.I think we'll have a better perspective on W once we get a grip on where his administration fits in the context of history. The same way that the 1990s highlighted the positive aspects of a post-Cold War world, the 9/11 attacks highlighted its dangers. The rapid liberalization and private investment taking place in Russia after the Soviet Collapse was halted upon Putin's coming to power, and Russia went down a course that emphasized restoring national pride and making the country a major player again. Without the mutual threat of the Soviet Union, Western Europe started to distance itself from the United States, as highlighted by the lukewarm response of European countries to the invasion of Afghanistan and especially Iraq.
I think some kind of concensus is being reached over the War on Terror. After eight years of protesting the Patriot Act under Bush, no one said a thing when Congress re-authorized it under Obama. Obama knows that he cannot leave Afghanistan, and Biden said that victory in Iraq will be one of Obama's great accoplishments.
fidosim
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