the nintendo Wii & DS are very innovative, but...

...it's mostly hardware innovation.

if you look at these fairly recent games: wii music, wii fit, wii sports, cooking mama, nintendogs, elektroplankton, wario ware twisted etc. you must realise that there is a lot of variety of experience here and something like wii fit is really original. so there are original games and it's difficult to argue that that's not the case.

what nintendo are not doing is developing narrative in conventional game design. with the exception of perhaps 'metroid prime 3: corruption', narrative is mostly an afterthought (character design as a whole is still good in zelda though).

mario & zelda are innovated based on the new hardware. they are still the same at the core, but the wiimote and DS stylus change the experience; make it feel fresher and more intuitive.

and i don't think these things will change. team ICO (which, actually inspired twilight princess's enchanted visual theme) are making real mechanics-based and aesthetics-based changes to game design, but generally in favour of narrative. nintendo just recycles the zelda myth.

i think perhaps nintendo feels it has 'been there - done that' with conventional game design - hence the Wii and DS.

opinions?

i'm not saying it's good or bad, but just trying to promote more understanding so people aren't confused or annoyed about there being 'no new games' on Wii. or no 'hardcore' games.

I would love for Nintendo to make a new franchise game. I am not talking about things like Wii Fit or Wii Sports. I think a new face in the Nintendo family that satisfies all types of gamers and also takes great advantage of the control system. Make a new RPG, Adventure game, I really do not care what genre it is just as long as it is NEW! Oh yea it would be nice if it were a good game too :P

TP had a great storyline, certianly just as good as Metriod.

But besides that I see where your going within-depth stories, being that there arnt many. But then again, there is a smaller selection of really good games for the Wii. And most games with good stories Ive seen for the Wii are coming out over the next year, so this problem will probably decrece.

Overall though, good point.

Platformers have never been big on narrative or story for that matter, there is just a loose reasoning for why the hero is jumping all over the place(typically good guy vs bad guy). Also you might want to look around the rest o the gaming industry I don't see very many games out there pushing the boundaries of narrative or innovating it. Gameplay is what is supposed to be innovated and taken to the next level, if it was story games wouldn't have sequels because your simply treading on the same tale. Story in gaming is a bonus of hardware advances, games originally didn't have much of a story it was simple, drop you in, let you run around and thats that. And Team Ico has made two games where no one even really knows what they are about, and Shadow of the Colossus is simple gameplay and non existant in the narrative department. It was simply save the princess cliche that has been done since Mario Bros 1. That game is actually very bare bones it's just praised for the art style it has even less subtance than those Mario games that you are putting down, and way less than Zelda. Sepewrath

dude, i'm not putting down mario games! yeah zelda's got the same old story since LttP and that's true, but i didn't 'put down' mario. i think it's the 'responsibility' of adventure/RPG games to advance story as well as gameplay. zelda tells a subtle kind of graphical story but spoils it because the plot is cheesy and old.

'Team Ico has made two games where no one even really knows what they are about, and Shadow of the Colossus is simple gameplay and non existant in the narrative department. It was simply save the princess cliche that has been done since Mario Bros 1. That game is actually very bare bones it's just praised for the art style it has even less subtance than those Mario games that you are putting down, and way less than Zelda.'

1. it's called ambiguity. it's subtle. it's not suppose to tell you everything.

2. the gameplay is the narrative..

3. it's not a cliche. the treatment is very different. when you control link, he is a hero. when you control wanda he stumbles, he is naieve and inexperienced. you can tell all this from just the way he acts and moves. it's clearly a very different situation.

man, you fanboys are ready to bite anyone's hand off.

I think mario has extremely innovative level design, and twilight princess has extremely innovative dungeons and character design.

I think mario has extremely innovative level design, and twilight princess has extremely innovative dungeons and character design.

webhead921

nintendo are level design masters. and i actually prefer zelda's character designs to FF.

The same way you are making excuses for Team ICO , one could just as easily exonerate Zelda. Like for example you know that there is no official timeline for Zelda right, Nintendo has never acknowledged the way the games connect. Well perhaps its all in the title, its called The Legend of Zelda right, well the same way there is a Legend about Hercules, or Troy, or Atlantis or whatever. There are a bunch of different ways the story is told, but the overall theme remains the sames. It was always Sparta vs Troy, Helen of Troy was always the ignitor of the war, the Trojan Horse has always ended the war, but everything in between differs from storyteller to storyteller. The same could be said of the Legend of Zelda, its always Link vs Ganondorf, Zelda and the Triforce is at the forefront of the conflict, the Master Sword is used to end it, but everything in between doesn't have to be the same.

My argument has nothing to do with being a fanboy, its just that your argument makes no sense. You cant say one game is wrong for not innovating its narrative, but then praise Team ICO simply because they don't have a franchise. ICO and SoTC are very similar in design, no narrative, a guy who doesn't talk trying to save a girl, atmospheric, very generic gameplay and so on. So they make two games that are very similar at thier core and its ok, but Nintendo does it and its wrong. Now you see why I have an issue with what you said.

[QUOTE="webhead921"]

I think mario has extremely innovative level design, and twilight princess has extremely innovative dungeons and character design.

just_nonplussed

nintendo are level design masters. and i actually prefer zelda's character designs to FF.

same here. I really enjoy the way all of the characters/enemies look in twilight princess.

I don't really care to be honest. Video games are prolly the worst medium for story telling. If you want a great story, read a book, or watch a movie, or read a comic, or watch TV, or watch an animation.

How terrible of a movie would starwars be if Skywalker failed to destroy the deathstar only to respawn over and over until he got it right. People would leave the theatre...or at least be very confused.

In fact, I feel the ONLY two games to properly mesh narrative and game together were ICO and SotC.

here a good phrase to live by, dont fix whats not broken !

and thats what wii did, was not fix somthing that wasnt broken , it improved it ,!

and its game variety is no push over!

i dont see how any one can play fps after fps after fps,

thats so boring, and such a bad taste!

i need the variety wii offers that no other console does, this gen , sure last gen they all were equal , but now! i dont think so ,

I have never played a game for a storyline. I simply play a game if it looks fun. To me, a story is just a nice add on, like a sun-roof in a car, but not necessary to have in your car to drive it. Gameplay is the only thing that keeps me coming back too a game. Someone else said thatvideo gamesaren't an effective medium in telling stories. I believe that was wrong, because I think the stories of Final Fantasy VII and Resident Evil are very compelling. However, if the game can't be enjoyed withoutastory, then it is not a very good game in the end. Games aren't stories, they are games. I would rather play Mario Galaxy anyday over Metal Gear Solid 4 guns of the patriots simply because I get to play Mario Galaxy and not watch it, and that is why I buy a game...to PLAY it.

I have never played a game for a storyline. I simply play a game if it looks fun. To me, a story is just a nice add on, like a sun-roof in a car, but not necessary to have in your car to drive it. Gameplay is the only thing that keeps me coming back too a game. Someone else said thatvideo gamesaren't an effective medium in telling stories. I believe that was wrong, because I think the stories of Final Fantasy VII and Resident Evil are very compelling. However, if the game can't be enjoyed withoutastory, then it is not a very good game in the end. Games aren't stories, they are games. I would rather play Mario Galaxy anyday over Metal Gear Solid 4 guns of the patriots simply because I get to play Mario Galaxy and not watch it, and that is why I buy a game...to PLAY it.

capitalthoughts

I don't really care to be honest. Video games are prolly the worst medium for story telling. If you want a great story, read a book, or watch a movie, or read a comic, or watch TV, or watch an animation.

How terrible of a movie would starwars be if Skywalker failed to destroy the deathstar only to respawn over and over until he got it right. People would leave the theatre...or at least be very confused.

In fact, I feel the ONLY two games to properly mesh narrative and game together were ICO and SotC.

goblaa

i would add Super Metroid to that list, and Vagrant Story.

TP had excellent parts, however most of the game was pointless...Ruppes and Magic Armor...pointless...golden bugs and big wallets...pointless...not enough side quests, a lot of empty land...TP had a great story and had some great scenes....Ocarina of TIme...don't even get me started. It has a legendary status...TP merely has a great status...then again legendary status is almost impossible to get now. Also you just don't feel that growing stronger feeling in TP...Ocarina of Time by the end it felt and looked like Link could handle any bloody thing, Golden Guantlets, Double Hearts, Hover Boots, Biggeron Sword, Magic...bunch of other things...I will never forget when I first got to the end level Hyrule Castle...you would think back and remember that all Link had back then was a green Tunic and a dagger, and was a kid...Now he had every bloody thing and looked like he could own..Only Ocarina and the old Zelda's felt like that...now it just seems Link is some random adventurer who gets some equipment. I know people will say its because in Ocarina of Time you change to old Link but its not just that, Even when you got old you were limited but after getting further and gaining everything...the games character growth factor was brilliant in Ocarina...need to be remade with more equipment and some expansions. Or they need to make a game like it. Again Nintendo's old games are just better then their new ones...not that the new ones aren't great but compared to the older ones they aren't as great.stike22

but TP is basically a better-looking OoT. it's just that you've experienced and been exposed to OoT first. the rupee thing is an exception, but all the rest of it was in Ocarina as well.

people aren't going to play OoT these days. it's not even on the shelf. they'll pick up TP and call it the best game ever, just like you did with OoT when you were younger.

Zelda TP actually had a very good story, which alot was told through the gameplay ....Example, Link entered a snowy palace and was attacked by vanashing white wolves. It was actually gameplay, but you have to use your imagination. Nintendo has always been brilliant at this( telling the story through gameplay). Why play a bunch of cutscenes when you can just live it? Isn't that what games are about? Okami has an excellent story.... Good vs. bad, Saving damsels, But what story isn't like this, honestly?skingus

yeah absolutely. i still remember how yoshi's island has a great symbiosis of play and story (they're basically the same thing in that game).

what i have a problem with is the collecting mechanic, wrapped up in the same old "go and collect the 7 secret dark shards" storyline etc. etc. it just puts me off. zelda could be telling a wonderful in-game story, and then bam! it produces a cut-scene which puts me off exploring the rest of the game and pushing further, because the mystery is gone. i love all the twilight stuff...it engrossed me for a bit, but in the end it was just too predictable. the zelda audience has grown up.

telling a story in 3D is somewhat different to telling a story in 2D. you have the problem of the camera angle, but also 1st person/3rd person viewpoints etc. etc.

i think zelda should become more minimalist like ICO and less 'lord of the rings', in that epic sweeping feel. ironically it's a mix of both aesthetics.

i dont really care about narrative to be honest (except for RPGs). all i need is a setting and a context (a reason for doing what im doing) and im good to go. one thing i like about ninty is that they dont use narrative as a selling point. as far as they are concerned the story telling just gets in the way. why do you think they have reused the same story for zelda for the last 20 years or so (and also have the story very thin on the ground)? they dont care...they focus on the nuts and bolts of the game...they play around with the possibilites of puzzles in dungeons and so fourth. im playing a bit of MP1 again and its solution to the story presentation problem (and thats what it is..a problem for most games) is very elegant. it takes the half life approach where the player is in control 99% of the time. all the background story is kept where it belongs...in the background. the player can read up on it if he/she likes but its not spoon fed to them. the games narrative provides a setting (tallon 4) and a context (sort out dem nasty space pirates and investigate the planets problem). done. im happy. there is too much emphasis on narrative in games imho. osan0

but you've just described the perfect way to do a narrative in a game! that's what i was getting at. MP is the model that other developers should look at when wanting to tell a story. i like half-life, but MP is more seamless and there's literally no waiting around (HL2 has some quite long cut-scenes).

about TP though, as the other poster is saying, the dungeons weren't that 'out there' or original (except for maybe a couple), so when even the puzzles aren't so hot in a zelda game then it's kind of dissapointing. i had the same problem with wind waker, but at least the graphics made it all feel new again.

TP could have been shorter and sweeter. i imagine they put easy dungeons in for new audiences though. too many forest temples in those games...