Objectification of women in video games, will it never end?

Well then, this looks like a good place to call it a draw. Oh moderator, it's time to lock this one up.capaho

A draw...uh....sure whatever...

I've been saying the same thing reworded in about a million different ways for five whole pages anywhoo...

It's like my brain is that tree and you're those little cookie elves...El_Zo1212o

Elves and trees...Is that a good thing? :lol:

It's like my brain is that tree and you're those little cookie elves...El_Zo1212o

The topic should be "Objectification of women, will it ever end?"

Women are objectified in all media forms, not just video games. Think about it... the greatest trick our male dominated society has ever pulled was convincing women that stripping was a damn work-out and getting them to play football in their bra and panties is a reputable sport.

Capaho honestly, I agree with every word Lucky said and I wish Charlie Spot and Carolyn Michele were here to read her posts. I million percent agree with the conspiracy theory thing. We're PERFECTLY AWARE that acknowledging sexism in games is very important. It's as important as speaking against racism, intolerance, anti semitism and homophobia. No one wants a game where they're protrayed in a negative light. We realize it's a very important thing to discuss and everyone should point it out and either ignore it or stop it, and it all depends on whether or not you believe in drawing lines somewhere, but we also believe no one has made a well-researched and reliable project on the subject yet. I personally think everything I've seen about sexism in games, every project, every article, every piece was distorted and extremely inaccurate. I think this does the cause more harm than good. 

Another point, you do make it sound as if Japan are totally cool with objectification when they're not. Again, I think you're looking at the wrong titles. The women in those manga/games you mentioned are meant to look that way. The genre in those mangas is Ecchi it means Hentai which is the Japanese word for perverted so how are women supposed to look in perverted games? If not sexy. And AGAIN, that's not sexist because there are games with sexy dudes too and they're raunchier than the ones with women and they weren't made to make people think that men are weaker, they were made for the purpose of entertainment or gratification as simple as that. We're human and we have basic insticts and some rely on those to get it off. Offended? You shouldn't be. And Japan just passed an act which bans certain themes in anime and manga which include rape. 

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"] It's like my brain is that tree and you're those little cookie elves...Lucky_Krystal

Elves and trees...Is that a good thing? :lol:

My wife and I often have this discussion (she's a gamer) and we both HATE the subjegation of male sexuality (as in, females must be sexualized because it's MEN that buy those types of games, and MEN'S sexuality is an easy sell). Anyways...I would love to see women in games be less sexualized unless their character calls for it. Marcus in GoW was beefed out, but not what any girl would call "hot." Anybody that can't discern the objectification of women in gaming, by claiming men are objectified on equal footing, is either younger than 15 (and thus an idiot...objectively speaking, your' brain isn't developed and you don't have much life experience) or just a plain moron. On a side note, my wife wanted me to put in this post that she LOVED the new Lara Croft because, while she has a perfect body and is pretty, she is not oversexualized. She seemed vulnerable and EVERY outfit she had was decent. Not a single "whorefit."demi0227_basic

I'm a huge fan of the first few games. Mind sharing your opinion as to why the old Lara Croft was sexist? Do you know that the large boobs were an "accident"? Do you know that the first six games also included full covering outfits and none of them were whorefits if that's what your wife meant by that. 

[QUOTE="Lucky_Krystal"]

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"]

Elves and trees...Is that a good thing? :lol:

El_Zo1212o

Without proper context, that image doesn't mean jack-shit either way.

While you could make the argument that the female in that rendering is an overtly sexualized being clad in skimpy clothing in a semi-submissive pose, the inverse of that impression is that her feminine beauty is a weapon used to lure lusty fools into underestimating her cybernetic lethality, evidenced by the throng of dead men at her feet.

One could even argue that her sexuality, which is rendered in an almost sterile notion of perfection, was purposely done so as to juxtapose that feminine beauty with the grotesquery of her artificial limbs and the violence they have wrought.

It is also possible that she is entirely mechanical, rendering her sexuality even more of a dark irony.

Personally, I think the issues of sexualized females and the overreliance of tropes and stereotypes in gaming is a discussion worth having but unfortunately many of the examples cited as evidence are flimsy or entirely irrelevant.

And without context, that image doesn't prove anything.

Without proper context, that image doesn't mean jack-shit either way.

While you could make the argument that the female in that rendering is an overtly sexualized being clad in skimpy clothing in a semi-submissive pose, the inverse of that impression is that her feminine beauty is a weapon used to lure lusty fools into underestimating her cybernetic lethality, evidenced by the throng of dead men at her feet.

One could even argue that her sexuality, which is rendered in an almost sterile notion of perfection, was purposely done so as to juxtapose that feminine beauty with the grotesquery of her artificial limbs and the violence they have wrought.

It is also possible that she is entirely mechanical, rendering her sexuality even more of a dark irony.

Personally, I think the issues of sexualized females and the overreliance of tropes and stereotypes in gaming is a discussion worth having but unfortunately many of the examples cited as evidence are flimsy or entirely irrelevant.

And without context, that image doesn't prove anything.

 

Grammaton-Cleric

A wild Grammaton appears!  :shock:

I sincerely hope any of the sensationalist prone individuals following this thread are dumb enough to argue with you on this.  :lol:

A wild Grammaton appears! :shock:

I sincerely hope any of the sensationalist prone individuals following this thread are dumb enough to argue with you on this. :lol:

keech

You know, I think some people are generally concerned with the issue but I also think some people use the wrong images and games to buoy their arguments.

[QUOTE="keech"]

A wild Grammaton appears! :shock:

I sincerely hope any of the sensationalist prone individuals following this thread are dumb enough to argue with you on this. :lol:

Grammaton-Cleric

You know, I think some people are generally concerned with the issue but I also think some people use the wrong images and games to buoy their arguments.

[QUOTE="keech"]

A wild Grammaton appears! :shock:

 

I sincerely hope any of the sensationalist prone individuals following this thread are dumb enough to argue with you on this. :lol:

Grammaton-Cleric

You know, I think some people are generally concerned with the issue but I also think some people use the wrong images and games to buoy their arguments.

Agreed.  I for one would very much like to see more variety and more well rounded female characters in video games.  It's just this issue usually turns into the calm, thoughtful, and rational people who want to see this change having to restrain the sensationalists who jump to conclusions every chance they get.  It's like fighting against your own cause.  :?

Capaho honestly, I agree with every word Lucky said and I wish Charlie Spot and Carolyn Michele were here to read her posts. I million percent agree with the conspiracy theory thing. We're PERFECTLY AWARE that acknowledging sexism in games is very important. It's as important as speaking against racism, intolerance, anti semitism and homophobia. No one wants a game where they're protrayed in a negative light. We realize it's a very important thing to discuss and everyone should point it out and either ignore it or stop it, and it all depends on whether or not you believe in drawing lines somewhere, but we also believe no one has made a well-researched and reliable project on the subject yet. I personally think everything I've seen about sexism in games, every project, every article, every piece was distorted and extremely inaccurate. I think this does the cause more harm than good. 

gamingqueen

I disagree that no one has researched this topic well, there is an abundance of professional research out there.  I expect to see even more with this issue being looked at as a contributing factor in the epidemic of sexual harassment and sexual assaults in the military.  The problem with this discussion is that those of us who feel strongly enough to want to comment on it hold firmly to what we believe, so there isn't going to be much, if any, changing of minds here.

Another point, you do make it sound as if Japan are totally cool with objectification when they're not. Again, I think you're looking at the wrong titles. The women in those manga/games you mentioned are meant to look that way. The genre in those mangas is Ecchi it means Hentai which is the Japanese word for perverted so how are women supposed to look in perverted games? If not sexy. And AGAIN, that's not sexist because there are games with sexy dudes too and they're raunchier than the ones with women and they weren't made to make people think that men are weaker, they were made for the purpose of entertainment or gratification as simple as that. We're human and we have basic insticts and some rely on those to get it off. Offended? You shouldn't be. And Japan just passed an act which bans certain themes in anime and manga which include rape. 

gamingqueen

It's important to understand both Japan and its language in context to fully appreciate the issues you are attempting to use as examples.   Hentai merely means abnormality, as in not part of the norm.  In relation to adult publications, it is usually used for a category that would include themes of S & M, bondage, etc.   Hentaiseiyoku means sexual abnormality or sexual perversion and is usually used in clinical settings.  As in the US and elsewhere, that genre of publication does not represent the entirety of sexist images in Japan.  The reason why the Japanese government is considering regulating the content of such publications is because sexual assaults against women and domestic violence are at epidemic proportions in Japan at present.  That would seem to provide further evidence in support of my point of view in this discussion.

A horrifying possibility just sprung into my mind. You guys HAVE heard of the Keebler Elves, right??El_Zo1212o

Ah, I get it now. :lol:

Capaho honestly, I agree with every word Lucky said and I wish Charlie Spot and Carolyn Michele were here to read her posts. I million percent agree with the conspiracy theory thing. We're PERFECTLY AWARE that acknowledging sexism in games is very important. It's as important as speaking against racism, intolerance, anti semitism and homophobia. No one wants a game where they're protrayed in a negative light. We realize it's a very important thing to discuss and everyone should point it out and either ignore it or stop it, and it all depends on whether or not you believe in drawing lines somewhere, but we also believe no one has made a well-researched and reliable project on the subject yet. I personally think everything I've seen about sexism in games, every project, every article, every piece was distorted and extremely inaccurate. I think this does the cause more harm than good. 

gamingqueen

Thanks GQ, this is basically what I've been trying to get to them. So far, many of articles, video series, etc, that discuss the portrayals of women in games tend to be biased and poorly researched, and at the very worst, insulting or inflammatory. This makes it very hard for people to take the speaker and the issue seriously. They want to do something good for the cause, but instead they end up doing the opposite.

Thanks GQ, this is basically what I've been trying to get to them. So far, many of articles, video series, etc, that discuss the portrayals of women in games tend to be biased and poorly researched, and at the very worst, insulting or inflammatory. This makes it very hard for people to take the speaker and the issue seriously. They want to do something good for the cause, but instead they end up doing the opposite.

Lucky_Krystal

What are some specific aspects of the research article I posted a link to that would fit your description of such research?  What specific content from that article provides evidence of poor research or what statements from that article are insulting or inflammatory?

Have to say, there's been some interesting responses since the last time I checked in.

[QUOTE="XDeSuEhTX"]

Actually, I mixed up your message with capaho's. Earlier he said:

[QUOTE=" "] To many of us who are concerned about these problems the proliferation of sexist images and the real-world victimization of women are not unrelated. Lucky_Krystal

My apologies, honest mistake.

But that wasn't really an attempt at derailment. There are many different aspects of sexism that will come up during a discussion; it is not as black and white a subject as you make it out to be.

Also, many of the people who campaign against images that objectify women tend to think that it has a detrimental effect on not just women, but men as well. They seem to think that these images would cause men to see all women as objects and treat them as such. And I'm saying that using media as a scapegoat for the harmful actions of people sounds suspiciously like the argument that "violent video games breed murderers" or "porn breeds rapists and pedophiles." They also think that getting rid of these images will magically make everything better. Tell me, if games like Cyberpunk 2077 were to be changed to never objectify women, do you think that would solve all the problems of the game industry?

Other media like movies, books, television, music, and anime all objectify women as well. But the difference is that they have far more diversity behind the scenes than gaming does (overall anyway). Therefore, they have a slew of genres and media that appeal to a wider variety of people. What gaming could really use is diversity behind the scenes. Not just more women either. More people of both genders and all races who are willing to do something more than military shooter #158. Better writers to create better characters. And perhaps people who know how to spend money wisely, so companies can take risks and not spend millions on some generic game that needs to sell 5 million copies to break even.

And I'm going to say this again: the way you approach the subject does not help. Immediately twisting things out of context and throwing around hyperbolic and vicious words to describe the game and its creators as "sexist," "porn," and say "every female protagonist is objectified" is not a good way to approach the subject. When you come out swinging and name calling, people will see through your flimsy argument right away. They won't take you or the issue seriously.

Well I really didn't come to debate philosophy over what media does or doesn't do, but I can tell it's an avenue you keep driving up and down waiting for some sort of collision. Honestly, it's hard to say what effect media has on the way people think, but to suggest it's none at all is foolish. There's a line somewhere between using media a scapegoat and dismissing it from all responsibility. If it's not "black and white" as you say, then for example black would be saying this inspires men to see all women as objects, treat them poorly, etc, and white would be saying it never plays are role in that. Would it make things better you ask? It's possible, maybe even probable. We've not made it there. One thing that seems even more likely is that less "good ole boys club" mentality in the game industy would equal more women interested to both game design and playing games.

Getting rid of hypersexualized protagonists in question would not change the fact that there are still a disproportionate number of men and women in the gaming industry. It won't change the fact that some women in the industry are made to feel they don't belong there, therefore discouraging them from gaining higher positions or even new blood from entering the industry. It won't change the fact that right now, some publishers are unwilling to allow developers to even have a female protagonist because they think the game won't sell. It won't change the fact that the "girls have cooties" mentality is somehow held by someone who has power over developers (read). Or how some shithole magazine can make a "40 hottest women in tech list" with the tagline, "It's no wonder the boys welcomed them with open arms" HEAVILY implying that they are only where they are for their looks. As I keep telling you, games are a reflection of what's happening behind the scenes.

Seriously? I hate to be rude, but that is some serious ass-backward mentality. I genuinely believe in just the opposite. The making of games that are more female friendly and sensitivie to sexist and patriachal tendency, could indeed inspire significant change within the entire field. You have a serious defeatist attitude about the whole thing, seem to think staying quiet and nice as possible is your only prayer that the wind may blow west one day and all things will conspire for the better out of the clear blue without a single finger lifted or a feeling hurt.

It's funny how you contine to shoot down so many people, myself included telling us that we're out of line to say what we say, yet again it flys in the face of what your supposed idols of sexism citique (the ones you referenced pages back) had to say about accepting other's presentation on the matter. The constant need to keep chanting "you're not helping, you're not helping!", is in fact not helping. It's just oppressive, and discouraging all around. You've acted as though you've had some better examples to follow though they are not fundamentally any different aside from being less impactful and/or presented where there is less/no diversity of opinion in the first place. Those women faced backlash too.

You say people will not "take me seriously", yet there've been plenty of people to do so, plenty of disagreeing going on, but really very few who have not taken this seriously.

Seriously? I hate to be rude, but that is some serious ass-backward mentality. I genuinely believe in just the opposite. The making of games that are more female friendly and sensitivie to sexist and patriachal tendency, could indeed inspire significant change within the entire field. You have a serious defeatist attitude about the whole thing, seem to think staying quiet and nice as possible is your only prayer that the wind may blow west one day and all things will conspire for the better out of the clear blue without a single finger lifted or a feeling hurt.

It's funny how you contine to shoot down so many people, myself included telling us that we're out of line to say what we say, yet again it flys in the face of what your supposed idols of sexism citique (the ones you referenced pages back) had to say about accepting other's presentation on the matter. The constant need to keep chanting "you're not helping, you're not helping!", is in fact not helping. It's just oppressive, and discouraging all around. You've acted as though you've had some better examples to follow though they are not fundamentally any different aside from being less impactful and/or presented where there is less/no diversity of opinion in the first place. Those women faced backlash too.

You say people will not "take me seriously", yet there've been plenty of people to do so, plenty of disagreeing going on, but really very few who have not taken this seriously.

XDeSuEhTX

Well said.

Seriously? I hate to be rude, but that is some serious ass-backward mentality. I genuinely believe in just the opposite. The making of games that are more female friendly and sensitivie to sexist and patriachal tendency, could indeed inspire significant change within the entire field. You have a serious defeatist attitude about the whole thing, seem to think staying quiet and nice as possible is your only prayer that the wind may blow west one day and all things will conspire for the better out of the clear blue without a single finger lifted or a feeling hurt.

It's funny how you contine to shoot down so many people, myself included telling us that we're out of line to say what we say, yet again it flys in the face of what your supposed idols of sexism citique (the ones you referenced pages back) had to say about accepting other's presentation on the matter. The constant need to keep chanting "you're not helping, you're not helping!", is in fact not helping. It's just oppressive, and discouraging all around. You've acted as though you've had some better examples to follow though they are not fundamentally any different aside from being less impactful and/or presented where there is less/no diversity of opinion in the first place. Those women faced backlash too.

You say people will not "take me seriously", yet there've been plenty of people to do so, plenty of disagreeing going on, but really very few who have not taken this seriously.

XDeSuEhTX

Seriously? I hate to be rude, but that is some serious ass-backward mentality. I genuinely believe in just the opposite. The making of games that are more female friendly and sensitivie to sexist and patriachal tendency, could indeed inspire significant change within the entire field. You have a serious defeatist attitude about the whole thing, seem to think staying quiet and nice as possible is your only prayer that the wind may blow west one day and all things will conspire for the better out of the clear blue without a single finger lifted or a feeling hurt.

It's funny how you contine to shoot down so many people, myself included telling us that we're out of line to say what we say, yet again it flys in the face of what your supposed idols of sexism citique (the ones you referenced pages back) had to say about accepting other's presentation on the matter. The constant need to keep chanting "you're not helping, you're not helping!", is in fact not helping. It's just oppressive, and discouraging all around. You've acted as though you've had some better examples to follow though they are not fundamentally any different aside from being less impactful and/or presented where there is less/no diversity of opinion in the first place. Those women faced backlash too.

You say people will not "take me seriously", yet there've been plenty of people to do so, plenty of disagreeing going on, but really very few who have not taken this seriously.

XDeSuEhTX

I'm saying if more women were to come in the industry, more positive female protagonists would come as a result. If you were to magically get rid of every single hypersexualized protagonist, would that change those publisher's attitudes towards games that star women and would that change the fact that the industry is mostly male-dominated? If games are a reflection of their creators (the industry) and we don't have as many positive female protagonists, what does that say about real life? In turn, what can we do to help in real life? That's what I was getting at.

Also, I'm not even really trying to silence you. If you want to speak about how women are objectified in games then feel free. But I've been trying to tell you that the way you and many others approach the subject is highly flawed, sometimes sensational, poorly researched, and contains several assumptions made off of that poor research. I'm saying if you're going to approach the subject, then do it rationally, do all your research, consider context, and don't assume. Come in with an open mind too, think about all the possibilities and not just the sexist ones. Otherwise, people will:

A. Not take you or the issue seriously

B. Argue with you because your arguments are poor and fairly easy to attack.

What are some specific aspects of the research article I posted a link to that would fit your description of such research?  What specific content from that article provides evidence of poor research or what statements from that article are insulting or inflammatory?

capaho

I am talking about the people who specificially have examined HOW WOMEN ARE PORTRAYED IN GAMES. I also HAVE provided examples of inflammatory and insulting articles.

Gotta say, her supposed defeatism is doing about as much good as your righteous anger since they're both spent here on an internet message board instead of out in the real world actually, y'know, doing something about it.

I'm all for debating sensitive topics, and you know I try to be plain about my position(which for some reason seems to fly in the face of what 80% of the respondents believe on any given topic), but you know who's actually accomplishing something in this sexism arena? The chicks who work there. The ones you talk about that are made to suffer this Boy's Club mentality. You aren't helping them.Talking accomplishes nothing. Don't like the disproportionate number of women in the game industry? Join up. even out the sides and equality comes with it. Don't cry that nothing's happening when you aren't pushing for something TO happen.

So talk and debate all you like, but don't pretend you're actually accomplishing anything on here.El_Zo1212o

I think you're right. Perhaps all this isn't worth it and perhaps I shouldn't have been arguing in this thread for as long as I have. I meant to only make one small comment and then 6 pages later...we've really gotten nowhere. It would seem that the individuals in this thread are nowhere on the same page. The TC seems to keep taking away a different meaning from my words than I intended, so I don't know if we'll ever be on the same page.

Anyway, I think I'm done with this thread. As you've said Zorro, "be the change you want to see" right? I'll admit, that'd be a far more productive use of my time. And that maybe I took it a little too far with this thread...

 

[QUOTE="capaho"]

What are some specific aspects of the research article I posted a link to that would fit your description of such research?  What specific content from that article provides evidence of poor research or what statements from that article are insulting or inflammatory?

Lucky_Krystal

I am talking about the people who specificially have examined HOW WOMEN ARE PORTRAYED IN GAMES. I also HAVE provided examples of inflammatory and insulting articles.

What are some specific research papers that have examined how women are portrayed in games?  I'd like to read one or two of the ones you've read.  I'm referring to actual research papers rather than blog posts or magazine articles.

[QUOTE="XDeSuEhTX"]

Seriously? I hate to be rude, but that is some serious ass-backward mentality. I genuinely believe in just the opposite. The making of games that are more female friendly and sensitivie to sexist and patriachal tendency, could indeed inspire significant change within the entire field. You have a serious defeatist attitude about the whole thing, seem to think staying quiet and nice as possible is your only prayer that the wind may blow west one day and all things will conspire for the better out of the clear blue without a single finger lifted or a feeling hurt.

It's funny how you contine to shoot down so many people, myself included telling us that we're out of line to say what we say, yet again it flys in the face of what your supposed idols of sexism citique (the ones you referenced pages back) had to say about accepting other's presentation on the matter. The constant need to keep chanting "you're not helping, you're not helping!", is in fact not helping. It's just oppressive, and discouraging all around. You've acted as though you've had some better examples to follow though they are not fundamentally any different aside from being less impactful and/or presented where there is less/no diversity of opinion in the first place. Those women faced backlash too.

You say people will not "take me seriously", yet there've been plenty of people to do so, plenty of disagreeing going on, but really very few who have not taken this seriously.

El_Zo1212o

Gotta say, her supposed defeatism is doing about as much good as your righteous anger since they're both spent here on an internet message board instead of out in the real world actually, y'know, doing something about it. I'm all for debating sensitive topics, and you know I try to be plain about my position(which for some reason seems to fly in the face of what 80% of the respondents believe on any given topic), but you know who's actually accomplishing something in this sexism arena? The chicks who work there. The ones you talk about that are made to suffer this Boy's Club mentality. You aren't helping them.Talking accomplishes nothing. Don't like the disproportionate number of women in the game industry? Join up. even out the sides and equality comes with it. Don't cry that nothing's happening when you aren't pushing for something TO happen. So talk and debate all you like, but don't pretend you're actually accomplishing anything on here.

No. Discussing about things no matter the place is a big part of activism actually. It helps raising awareness so never underestimate the power of discussing topics whether it's on a message board for videogames or a panel. In fact it's better to discuss serious issues as sexism and discrimination with everyday and average people than in a closed group that consists of activists and lawyers because that way, nobody is going to learn. If GQ is a lawyer and meets others GQs who are also lawyers and work to abolish laws which discriminate based on gender, we're not going to raise awareness if we keep meeting the same people, we're not going to create pressure and lobby against those laws, what me and the other GQs need to do is talk with your average joe, everyday people about such issues because a large number of them don't realize it's wrong to discriminate based on gender. They don't know it's sexist to say things. Heck I am a feminist and I didn't know that "wait til it's all over" joke was a rape joke until I read a topic on Gamespot! Discussing such topics is very important because it helps spread awareness. 

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

Capaho honestly, I agree with every word Lucky said and I wish Charlie Spot and Carolyn Michele were here to read her posts. I million percent agree with the conspiracy theory thing. We're PERFECTLY AWARE that acknowledging sexism in games is very important. It's as important as speaking against racism, intolerance, anti semitism and homophobia. No one wants a game where they're protrayed in a negative light. We realize it's a very important thing to discuss and everyone should point it out and either ignore it or stop it, and it all depends on whether or not you believe in drawing lines somewhere, but we also believe no one has made a well-researched and reliable project on the subject yet. I personally think everything I've seen about sexism in games, every project, every article, every piece was distorted and extremely inaccurate. I think this does the cause more harm than good. 

capaho

I disagree that no one has researched this topic well, there is an abundance of professional research out there.  I expect to see even more with this issue being looked at as a contributing factor in the epidemic of sexual harassment and sexual assaults in the military.  The problem with this discussion is that those of us who feel strongly enough to want to comment on it hold firmly to what we believe, so there isn't going to be much, if any, changing of minds here.

Where? Can you name some please? I'm following a number of accounts which deal with the same issue on Twitter and they all use the same stupid narrative. 

Another point, you do make it sound as if Japan are totally cool with objectification when they're not. Again, I think you're looking at the wrong titles. The women in those manga/games you mentioned are meant to look that way. The genre in those mangas is Ecchi it means Hentai which is the Japanese word for perverted so how are women supposed to look in perverted games? If not sexy. And AGAIN, that's not sexist because there are games with sexy dudes too and they're raunchier than the ones with women and they weren't made to make people think that men are weaker, they were made for the purpose of entertainment or gratification as simple as that. We're human and we have basic insticts and some rely on those to get it off. Offended? You shouldn't be. And Japan just passed an act which bans certain themes in anime and manga which include rape. 

gamingqueen

It's important to understand both Japan and its language in context to fully appreciate the issues you are attempting to use as examples.   Hentai merely means abnormality, as in not part of the norm.  In relation to adult publications, it is usually used for a category that would include themes of S & M, bondage, etc.   Hentaiseiyoku means sexual abnormality or sexual perversion and is usually used in clinical settings.  As in the US and elsewhere, that genre of publication does not represent the entirety of sexist images in Japan.  The reason why the Japanese government is considering regulating the content of such publications is because sexual assaults against women and domestic violence are at epidemic proportions in Japan at present.  That would seem to provide further evidence in support of my point of view in this discussion.

While I agree that hentai often includes sick and twisted stuff as rape but again, the women in hentai are not real, they're fictional. If you want to filter hentai industry then you have to go to the source, the porn industry because that's where all this shit is coming from. Glorifying rape and abusive relationships can be found in other industries as film and music. First there was Whitney then Whinehouse and now Rihanna. Hentai is actually a small part of manga industry because most of it is doujin and they're uploaded on torrents because Japan doesn't allow publish houses to publish those. If you believe there's a connection between people looking at things which contain scenes of women getting assaulted and people committing violence against women then you do believe in the myth that videogames make people do crazy stuff. I don't agree with that. I also don't agree that any medium that has such scenes enocurages that especially if it was done by the bad guys. That should be obvious.

That isn't the protaganist, the protaganist is the one who shoots her in the Trailer.Treflis

That's interesting.

Is she some sort of cyber-punk succubus?

While I agree that hentai often includes sick and twisted stuff as rape but again, the women in hentai are not real, they're fictional. If you want to filter hentai industry then you have to go to the source, the porn industry because that's where all this shit is coming from. Glorifying rape and abusive relationships can be found in other industries as film and music. First there was Whitney then Whinehouse and now Rihanna. Hentai is actually a small part of manga industry because most of it is doujin and they're uploaded on torrents because Japan doesn't allow publish houses to publish those. If you believe there's a connection between people looking at things which contain scenes of women getting assaulted and people committing violence against women then you do believe in the myth that videogames make people do crazy stuff. I don't agree with that. I also don't agree that any medium that has such scenes enocurages that especially if it was done by the bad guys. That should be obvious.

gamingqueen

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

While I agree that hentai often includes sick and twisted stuff as rape but again, the women in hentai are not real, they're fictional. If you want to filter hentai industry then you have to go to the source, the porn industry because that's where all this shit is coming from. Glorifying rape and abusive relationships can be found in other industries as film and music. First there was Whitney then Whinehouse and now Rihanna. Hentai is actually a small part of manga industry because most of it is doujin and they're uploaded on torrents because Japan doesn't allow publish houses to publish those. If you believe there's a connection between people looking at things which contain scenes of women getting assaulted and people committing violence against women then you do believe in the myth that videogames make people do crazy stuff. I don't agree with that. I also don't agree that any medium that has such scenes enocurages that especially if it was done by the bad guys. That should be obvious.

capaho

No. You said such themes were acceptable. I said they weren't hence the gov. is acting to ban publications with such themes. I also said you CAN'T publish anything with rape/vaw in Japan and most of the hentai is DOUJIN= independantly published because it's banned. I don't think rape and domestic violence happens in Japan because of the media otherwise it'd be only in Japan. It's been an issue before videogames and manga were created. 

 

[QUOTE="capaho"]

What are some specific aspects of the research article I posted a link to that would fit your description of such research?  What specific content from that article provides evidence of poor research or what statements from that article are insulting or inflammatory?

Lucky_Krystal

I am talking about the people who specificially have examined HOW WOMEN ARE PORTRAYED IN GAMES. I also HAVE provided examples of inflammatory and insulting articles.

Gotta say, her supposed defeatism is doing about as much good as your righteous anger since they're both spent here on an internet message board instead of out in the real world actually, y'know, doing something about it.

I'm all for debating sensitive topics, and you know I try to be plain about my position(which for some reason seems to fly in the face of what 80% of the respondents believe on any given topic), but you know who's actually accomplishing something in this sexism arena? The chicks who work there. The ones you talk about that are made to suffer this Boy's Club mentality. You aren't helping them.Talking accomplishes nothing. Don't like the disproportionate number of women in the game industry? Join up. even out the sides and equality comes with it. Don't cry that nothing's happening when you aren't pushing for something TO happen.

So talk and debate all you like, but don't pretend you're actually accomplishing anything on here.El_Zo1212o

I think you're right. Perhaps all this isn't worth it and perhaps I shouldn't have been arguing in this thread for as long as I have. I meant to only make one small comment and then 6 pages later...we've really gotten nowhere. It would seem that the individuals in this thread are nowhere on the same page. The TC seems to keep taking away a different meaning from my words than I intended, so I don't know if we'll ever be on the same page.

Anyway, I think I'm done with this thread. As you've said Zorro, "be the change you want to see" right? I'll admit, that'd be a far more productive use of my time. And that maybe I took it a little too far with this thread...

[QUOTE="capaho"][QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

While I agree that hentai often includes sick and twisted stuff as rape but again, the women in hentai are not real, they're fictional. If you want to filter hentai industry then you have to go to the source, the porn industry because that's where all this shit is coming from. Glorifying rape and abusive relationships can be found in other industries as film and music. First there was Whitney then Whinehouse and now Rihanna. Hentai is actually a small part of manga industry because most of it is doujin and they're uploaded on torrents because Japan doesn't allow publish houses to publish those. If you believe there's a connection between people looking at things which contain scenes of women getting assaulted and people committing violence against women then you do believe in the myth that videogames make people do crazy stuff. I don't agree with that. I also don't agree that any medium that has such scenes enocurages that especially if it was done by the bad guys. That should be obvious.

gamingqueen

No. You said such themes were acceptable. I said they weren't hence the gov. is acting to ban publications with such themes. I also said you CAN'T publish anything with rape/vaw in Japan and most of the hentai is DOUJIN= independantly published because it's banned. I don't think rape and domestic violence happens in Japan because of the media otherwise it'd be only in Japan. It's been an issue before videogames and manga were created. 

Please post the quote where I said that.  I must have missed it.  The Japanese government's proposed ban on such images is precisely because they believe such images are encouraging violent sexual behavior.  I'm surprised you didn't already know that assuming you also read the daily Japanese newspapers.  It's also getting increasing coverage on the wide shows, which I assume you also watch.

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

[QUOTE="capaho"] Now I'm having a bit of trouble following your argument. In your previous comment, you seemed to be saying that sexist images in Japan were limited to adult publications but that the Japanese government had decided to ban certain sexual images. I noted in my reply to that comment that the reason for the ban on violent sexual images is the widespread problem of sexual assaults against women and domestic violence that is occurring in Japan now, but you are now saying that there is no connection between such images and actual behavior. You seem to be contradicting yourself.capaho

No. You said such themes were acceptable. I said they weren't hence the gov. is acting to ban publications with such themes. I also said you CAN'T publish anything with rape/vaw in Japan and most of the hentai is DOUJIN= independantly published because it's banned. I don't think rape and domestic violence happens in Japan because of the media otherwise it'd be only in Japan. It's been an issue before videogames and manga were created. 

Please post the quote where I said that.  I must have missed it.  The Japanese government's proposed ban on such images is precisely because they believe such images are encouraging violent sexual behavior.  I'm surprised you didn't already know that assuming you also read the daily Japanese newspapers.  It's also getting increasing coverage on the wide shows, which I assume you also watch.

None of the things they banned are anything like Dead or Alive girls or the games those self proclaimed feminists spoke against. None. Until we actually see rape and vaw in games no one can point fingers and say look there's domestic violence because people play games which encourage domestic violence. I don't think there's a connection between playing violent games and adopting violent behavior. Hentai is read by people from all over the world including Finland which is number one country in women rights, does it mean anyone who reads it is potentialy an abuser? Definitly not. 

Stupid people commenting on objectification of women in games: Will it ever end?

Many of these sexualized females are still interesting/ good characters. Not only that, but the same can be said for many male protagonists.  How many games feature a good looking, young, muscular man? the exact same thing happens with men in games, just in a different way.

Why would this stop when objectification of women takes place in so many different mediums? It's not simply objectification however, it's the over sexualization of everything.

Take this Mr. Plumber commercial. It's a matter of their clothing remaining on at the end that separates this from being a porn film fantasy. Axe body spray is sold because men believe or hope in the fantasy that their marketing campaigns constantly put out.

There was the belief that more women in the industry would change this, but I don't believe that now. When you look how a large number of women, conform to their sexualization, whether through behavior or clothing, it's way beyond a numbers problem.

When this school year started, we had a hard time finding conservative clothing for my 13 yr. old daughter. Too many tops were low cut and the jeans rode too low on the hips. This was at a large number of stores. All these things go hand in hand.

Stupid people commenting on objectification of women in games: Will it ever end?

Many of these sexualized females are still interesting/ good characters. Not only that, but the same can be said for many male protagonists.  How many games feature a good looking, young, muscular man? the exact same thing happens with men in games, just in a different way.

turtlethetaffer

Why would this stop when objectification of women takes place in so many different mediums? It's not simply objectification however, it's the over sexualization of everything.

Take this Mr. Plumber commercial. It's a matter of their clothing remaining on at the end that separates this from being a porn film fantasy. Axe body spray is sold because men believe or hope in the fantasy that their marketing campaigns constantly put out.

There was the belief that more women in the industry would change this, but I don't believe that now. When you look how a large number of women, conform to their sexualization, whether through behavior or clothing, it's way beyond a numbers problem.

When this school year started, we had a hard time finding conservative clothing for my 13 yr. old daughter. Too many tops were low cut and the jeans rode too low on the hips. This was at a large number of stores. All these things go hand in hand.

Ghost_Face

Coupl'a things: first, men buy Axe and Oldspice because the commercials are funny and memorable, not because they actually expect to be 'mired in b!tches' because of it. Second- stop patronizing mall chains like Forever 21, Aeropostale and A&F. That's where slutwear is born. Try places like the Levi's store or Walmart- T shirts, woman, T shirts!El_Zo1212o

Mr. Coupl'a things...

Please don't act like you know me. I've never shopped at Aeropostale, A&F or Forever 21. These observations were at stores such as Target, Meijer, and Sears. I'm not saying that there are no 'non-slutty' girl clothes, just the fact that it's harder to find them than it should be. And I really don't want to dress my daughter in a t-shirt to go to church, etc.

The fact that blantant and subtle sexuality is used to sell any and everything, makes the movement away from the objectification of women in video games that much more unlikely.

After watching that commercial, I have another couple of things to mention- 1. The were objectifying the men, in case you weren't paying attention. 2. It's the same thing as the Axe commercials you objected(ha ha) to- I didn't stop giggling the whole time. Next time I've got a stubborn drain, I'll be buying Liquid Plumr.El_Zo1212o

Yes, they did objectify the men, but it's not my point of who was objectified, but that they sexualized a commercial about Liquid Plumber.

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"]

Yes, they did objectify the men, but it's not my point of who was objectified, but that they sexualized a commercial about Liquid Plumber.

Ghost_Face

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"]Coupl'a things: first, men buy Axe and Oldspice because the commercials are funny and memorable, not because they actually expect to be 'mired in b!tches' because of it. Second- stop patronizing mall chains like Forever 21, Aeropostale and A&F. That's where slutwear is born. Try places like the Levi's store or Walmart- T shirts, woman, T shirts!Ghost_Face

Mr. Coupl'a things...

Please don't act like you know me. I've never shopped at Aeropostale, A&F or Forever 21. These observations were at stores such as Target, Meijer, and Sears. I'm not saying that there are no 'non-slutty' girl clothes, just the fact that it's harder to find them than it should be. And I really don't want to dress my daughter in a t-shirt to go to church, etc.

The fact that blantant and subtle sexuality is used to sell any and everything, makes the movement away from the objectification of women in video games that much more unlikely.

Why change the color of my words? Was the big box with my name on it too subtle? But on topic: Objectification of women in videogames means exactly nothing to the world at large. You aren't demeaning them because they do not exist.You can say all day long that it promotes sexist behaviours in the people who play them, but then if you've ever argued against videogames turning people into mindless murderdrones, then you're officially a hypocrite. Address this point, confirm or deny, or ignore it altogether- you're the only person who will ever know the truth, and you'll have to live with the honest answer whether you cop to it here or not. As for church clothes, that shouldn't be too difficult- just make sure the buttons go all the way up to the throat, and the skirt goes all the way to the ground. Also, and this goes back to my previous point, who gives a sh!t that the commercial featured a woman salivating over two slices of beefcake? It was funny, it was memorable, thus as a commercial advertisement it was a rousing success.El_Zo1212o

I change the color of post I quote. I've been doing it for years. Don't take it personally because it's nothing more than an affectation.

As far as objectifying women in games, I believe that it's exactly what's happening, even if these women or depictions aren't of actual women. I don't believe I'm personally demeaning them, but the big breasts and way they're portrayed is less about the story and just to have the sex-kitten, eye-candy in the game. And I can't recall any of my posts in this thread saying that this objectification promotes sexists behavior. Am I alluding to that? I just believe that the over-sexualization of these women characters is ubiquitous. I believe that's what I was trying to get across. You're taking this way-way-way off-topic. Focusing on me and my beliefs rather than the topic and what was expressed. Alluding that I'm a hypocrite. Really?

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to prove with your posts or why you feel you've 'caught' me in some kind of hypocritical argument, but it seems overly aggressive too me. Did I do something to piss you off personally? If so, I apologize, because I really don't know you.

And we don't go to a Epistolic church. It's a non-demoninational, black church, so while I don't expect my daughter to dress like a Puritan or Amish, I don't expect her to go to church showing off her cleavage or her hips in low-rider jeans.

Yes, the Liquid Plumber commercial is funny, but that doesn't erase what it is. The underlying message is sexual. If the object was to remember it, it succeeded, but it seems that the message is more an more conveyed in a sexual manner. While this particular commercial objectified men, the majority do so to women.

It's easy to say who cares, when you don't. I care and notice because my wife and I are raising a young lady and son that are exposed to this manner of thing daily. There's only so many steps you can take to filter this, short of locking them away in bubbles and all media.

None of the things they banned are anything like Dead or Alive girls or the games those self proclaimed feminists spoke against. None. Until we actually see rape and vaw in games no one can point fingers and say look there's domestic violence because people play games which encourage domestic violence. I don't think there's a connection between playing violent games and adopting violent behavior. Hentai is read by people from all over the world including Finland which is number one country in women rights, does it mean anyone who reads it is potentialy an abuser? Definitly not. 

gamingqueen

So it comes back to the fact that the arguments in favor of tolerating sexism in images are based on mere opinion.  As I said previously, this is the kind of discussion in which no one is going to change their mind.  The doujinshi you referred to are usually published by individuals, fan groups or aficionados of whatever the topic of the doujinshi.  Tokyo is flooded with them, so I doubt that enforcement could be effective regardless of whatever regulations are in place.  It still doesn't change the fact that the Japanese government is considering a ban on sexually violent themes as a response to the problem of sexual assaults against women.  It also doesn't change the fact that the Pentagon is looking into the possibility of a link between sexist images and sexual assaults in the military.  It also doesn't change the fact that it is a subject of increasing research in the social sciences.  But, hey, what do any of them know?  Facts just don't have the same level of credibility as opinions.

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"]Why change the color of my words? Was the big box with my name on it too subtle? But on topic: Objectification of women in videogames means exactly nothing to the world at large. You aren't demeaning them because they do not exist.You can say all day long that it promotes sexist behaviours in the people who play them, but then if you've ever argued against videogames turning people into mindless murderdrones, then you're officially a hypocrite. Address this point, confirm or deny, or ignore it altogether- you're the only person who will ever know the truth, and you'll have to live with the honest answer whether you cop to it here or not. As for church clothes, that shouldn't be too difficult- just make sure the buttons go all the way up to the throat, and the skirt goes all the way to the ground. Also, and this goes back to my previous point, who gives a sh!t that the commercial featured a woman salivating over two slices of beefcake? It was funny, it was memorable, thus as a commercial advertisement it was a rousing success.Ghost_Face

I change the color of post I quote. I've been doing it for years. Don't take it personally because it's nothing more than an affectation.

As far as objectifying women in games, I believe that it's exactly what's happening, even if these women or depictions aren't of actual women. I don't believe I'm personally demeaning them, but the big breasts and way they're portrayed is less about the story and just to have the sex-kitten, eye-candy in the game. And I can't recall any of my posts in this thread saying that this objectification promotes sexists behavior. Am I alluding to that? I just believe that the over-sexualization of these women characters is ubiquitous. I believe that's what I was trying to get across. You're taking this way-way-way off-topic. Focusing on me and my beliefs rather than the topic and what was expressed. Alluding that I'm a hypocrite. Really?

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to prove with your posts or why you feel you've 'caught' me in some kind of hypocritical argument, but it seems overly aggressive too me. Did I do something to piss you off personally? If so, I apologize, because I really don't know you.

And we don't go to a Epistolic church. It's a non-demoninational, black church, so while I don't expect my daughter to dress like a Puritan or Amish, I don't expect her to go to church showing off her cleavage or her hips in low-rider jeans.

Yes, the Liquid Plumber commercial is funny, but that doesn't erase what it is. The underlying message is sexual. If the object was to remember it, it succeeded, but it seems that the message is more an more conveyed in a sexual manner. While this particular commercial objectified men, the majority do so to women.

It's easy to say who cares, when you don't. I care and notice because my wife and I are raising a young lady and son that are exposed to this manner of thing daily. There's only so many steps you can take to filter this, short of locking them away in bubbles and all media.

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

None of the things they banned are anything like Dead or Alive girls or the games those self proclaimed feminists spoke against. None. Until we actually see rape and vaw in games no one can point fingers and say look there's domestic violence because people play games which encourage domestic violence. I don't think there's a connection between playing violent games and adopting violent behavior. Hentai is read by people from all over the world including Finland which is number one country in women rights, does it mean anyone who reads it is potentialy an abuser? Definitly not. 

capaho

So it comes back to the fact that the arguments in favor of tolerating sexism in images are based on mere opinion.  As I said previously, this is the kind of discussion in which no one is going to change their mind.  The doujinshi you referred to are usually published by individuals, fan groups or aficionados of whatever the topic of the doujinshi.  Tokyo is flooded with them, so I doubt that enforcement could be effective regardless of whatever regulations are in place.  It still doesn't change the fact that the Japanese government is considering a ban on sexually violent themes as a response to the problem of sexual assaults against women.  It also doesn't change the fact that the Pentagon is looking into the possibility of a link between sexist images and sexual assaults in the military.  It also doesn't change the fact that it is a subject of increasing research in the social sciences.  But, hey, what do any of them know?  Facts just don't have the same level of credibility as opinions.

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

None of the things they banned are anything like Dead or Alive girls or the games those self proclaimed feminists spoke against. None. Until we actually see rape and vaw in games no one can point fingers and say look there's domestic violence because people play games which encourage domestic violence. I don't think there's a connection between playing violent games and adopting violent behavior. Hentai is read by people from all over the world including Finland which is number one country in women rights, does it mean anyone who reads it is potentialy an abuser? Definitly not. 

capaho

So it comes back to the fact that the arguments in favor of tolerating sexism in images are based on mere opinion.  As I said previously, this is the kind of discussion in which no one is going to change their mind.  The doujinshi you referred to are usually published by individuals, fan groups or aficionados of whatever the topic of the doujinshi.  Tokyo is flooded with them, so I doubt that enforcement could be effective regardless of whatever regulations are in place.  It still doesn't change the fact that the Japanese government is considering a ban on sexually violent themes as a response to the problem of sexual assaults against women.  It also doesn't change the fact that the Pentagon is looking into the possibility of a link between sexist images and sexual assaults in the military.  It also doesn't change the fact that it is a subject of increasing research in the social sciences.  But, hey, what do any of them know?  Facts just don't have the same level of credibility as opinions.

I'm going to be honest with you here, their main concern wasn't just rape and violence against women, it was pedophilia. There was a debate on whether banning loli and shota is okay because it has drawings of children or underage engaging in illegal activities or whether it's wrong because those children don't exist. NO ONE said it was a response to growing cases of pedophilia in Japan so we don't know whether the government took this stance as a response to something which I extremely doubt or because it's plain wrong. There's a major difference between the examples for sexism in Japan and examples used here. Tentacle rape is not the same as a woman fighting zombies in a bikini. A game with woman fighting zombies in bikini is not trying to send messages to women and urge them to wear the same thing, or tell them they're weak.

I'm not saying all women in games should wear bikini, I'm annoyed by it too because it ruins the overall image of the game but there's no way I'd agree that it has an effect on young girls simply because of the manner in which it was presented in the game. I find television ads for beauty products with women wearing size zero or two far more destructive than a dead or alive game and Kasumi's bikini. Kasumi is not real, Kasumi is a character in a game which may be about fighting but isn't brutal, rather comical and silly in a game made for fun and not to be used as a guide for girls clothing or life style. 

I'm going to be honest with you here, their main concern wasn't just rape and violence against women, it was pedophilia. There was a debate on whether banning loli and shota is okay because it has drawings of children or underage engaging in illegal activities or whether it's wrong because those children don't exist. NO ONE said it was a response to growing cases of pedophilia in Japan so we don't know whether the government took this stance as a response to something which I extremely doubt or because it's plain wrong. There's a major difference between the examples for sexism in Japan and examples used here. Tentacle rape is not the same as a woman fighting zombies in a bikini. A game with woman fighting zombies in bikini is not trying to send messages to women and urge them to wear the same thing, or tell them they're weak.

I'm not saying all women in games should wear bikini, I'm annoyed by it too because it ruins the overall image of the game but there's no way I'd agree that it has an effect on young girls simply because of the manner in which it was presented in the game. I find television ads for beauty products with women wearing size zero or two far more destructive than a dead or alive game and Kasumi's bikini. Kasumi is not real, Kasumi is a character in a game which may be about fighting but isn't brutal, rather comical and silly in a game made for fun and not to be used as a guide for girls clothing or life style. 

gamingqueen

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

Without proper context, that image doesn't mean jack-shit either way.

While you could make the argument that the female in that rendering is an overtly sexualized being clad in skimpy clothing in a semi-submissive pose, the inverse of that impression is that her feminine beauty is a weapon used to lure lusty fools into underestimating her cybernetic lethality, evidenced by the throng of dead men at her feet.

One could even argue that her sexuality, which is rendered in an almost sterile notion of perfection, was purposely done so as to juxtapose that feminine beauty with the grotesquery of her artificial limbs and the violence they have wrought.

It is also possible that she is entirely mechanical, rendering her sexuality even more of a dark irony.

Personally, I think the issues of sexualized females and the overreliance of tropes and stereotypes in gaming is a discussion worth having but unfortunately many of the examples cited as evidence are flimsy or entirely irrelevant.

And without context, that image doesn't prove anything.

 

keech

A wild Grammaton appears!  :shock:

I sincerely hope any of the sensationalist prone individuals following this thread are dumb enough to argue with you on this.  :lol:

There's nothing dumb about arguing against that. It is also not the first time in the thread someone has said exactly this. I've said again and again, there's nothing to prove or disprove when critiquing this image. What does it matter what this character is protrayed as? Clearly not much. Making her a hero doesn't make it any less sexualized, making her an enemy doesn't make it more, or any worse. None of that changes the way they've chosen to depict her, or the way they've chosen to show off the game. It only shows that regardless of any outcome, they've choosen sensationalism. Not me. They've chosen to market silly sexualized images of female characters in-game, and clearly this is done with a target audience in mind.

Any trivial in-game scenario like what Grammaton has offered, are all just examples sexist "tropes and stereotypes" involving women, ones that rely heavily upon air brushed beauty and hyper sexualized presentation. Pair that with whatever you want, it is what it is.