Different Gender Gamers

What are typical characteristics of the opposite genderkarstenhanlin

Nope. It's nice having the variety.

No. Why would they?MonsieurX

Nope

[QUOTE="MonsieurX"]No. Why would they?Lucky_Krystal

[QUOTE="karstenhanlin"]What are typical characteristics of the opposite genderBlack_Knight_00

If by annoying you mean stereotypes and boobs then yes, to an extent. I think it depends on why women and people from other groups are depicted in certain ways. Sometimes women in games are given large breasts due to technical limitations because it used to be the only way to tell the difference between male and female characters in games. Other times they're given large breasts for gratification and as a way to help boost sales. Sometimes it's just lazy design. The same applies to minorities and characters with different sexual preference as dressing up gay characters in flashy costumes and Indians/Middle Easters with turbans to help gamers distinguish between them and other characters in the game. 

Nope I actually find it interesting since it's so rare.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="karstenhanlin"]What are typical characteristics of the opposite gendergamingqueen

If by annoying you mean stereotypes and boobs then yes, to an extent. I think it depends on why women and people from other groups are depicted in certain ways. Sometimes women in games are given large breasts due to technical limitations because it used to be the only way to tell the difference between male and female characters in games. Other times they're given large breasts for gratification and as a way to help boost sales. Sometimes it's just lazy design. The same applies to minorities and characters with different sexual preference as dressing up gay characters in flashy costumes and Indians/Middle Easters with turbans to help gamers distinguish between them and other characters in the game. 

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] BoobsBlack_Knight_00

If by annoying you mean stereotypes and boobs then yes, to an extent. I think it depends on why women and people from other groups are depicted in certain ways. Sometimes women in games are given large breasts due to technical limitations because it used to be the only way to tell the difference between male and female characters in games. Other times they're given large breasts for gratification and as a way to help boost sales. Sometimes it's just lazy design. The same applies to minorities and characters with different sexual preference as dressing up gay characters in flashy costumes and Indians/Middle Easters with turbans to help gamers distinguish between them and other characters in the game. 

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] BoobsBlack_Knight_00

If by annoying you mean stereotypes and boobs then yes, to an extent. I think it depends on why women and people from other groups are depicted in certain ways. Sometimes women in games are given large breasts due to technical limitations because it used to be the only way to tell the difference between male and female characters in games. Other times they're given large breasts for gratification and as a way to help boost sales. Sometimes it's just lazy design. The same applies to minorities and characters with different sexual preference as dressing up gay characters in flashy costumes and Indians/Middle Easters with turbans to help gamers distinguish between them and other characters in the game. 

For the most part it's silly but boobs defying gravity jokes are no longer funny in my opinion. In anime industry, there's an entire genre dedicated to that. Despite the overused jokes and repeated to death plot, it still has a strong fanbase. It'll exist as long as people continue to watch it. The portrayal of men and women in Japanese entertainment industry reminds me of an episode of extra credits where they explain why Japanese games tend to be less ambitious. It's not that they can't do big budget and technically acheiving games, they just think of them as guilty pleasures. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_rvM6hubs8

No...

upset me?  why would I be upset?  I would love my next GF (I am single ladies ;) lol :P) to be into games.  My friends wife and my ex GF are both gamers.  

[QUOTE="karstenhanlin"]What are typical characteristics of the opposite genderBlack_Knight_00

What bothers me is how many girl gamers are ok with how females are represented in games, especially japanese games where they are handled as boobs and butt hangers.Black_Knight_00

I play a lot of Japanese games and watch a lot of anime and yes, sometimes the portrayal of women in these specific forms of media is less than stellar. But here's the thing: I'm not okay with it all the time but I'm not going to make a huge fuss over it. If I do I'd probably get hit with a slew of "OMG STAWP WHINING! WHAT ARE YOU? A STOOPID FEMINIST? I LYKE BEWBS IN MA GAMES" comments. Its easier to just not buy the game or watch the anime in question. Like gamingqueen said, there is a whole genre (the ecchi genre) where this sort of thing is used for laughs and cheap titillation. I've had the misfortune of coming across some of these anime. A few of them I was outright disgusted by, so I simply just stopped watching them.

Crying about it in a forum won't make a difference. In fact, its ironic that you'd say it bothers you. Whenever topics having to do with gender and gaming come up in PGD, you're the first one to put forth some snarky "oh not this shit again" remark. So if comments like that are all one hopes to gain by "not being ok with how females are represented in games" then why bother? Its easier to just not buy the game. I think Dead or Alive Xtreme beach volleyball is one of the dumbest and most useless games out there. And I find its portrayal of female characters idiotic. So I won't buy it. They sure aren't getting any of my money, which usually translates into a "hey, make more of this shit!"

Also, I'd be interested in hearing about these flurry of Japanese games where women are handled as "boobs and butt hangers." Aside from hentai games and the game I mentioned above, I'm drawing a blank there.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] What bothers me is how many girl gamers are ok with how females are represented in games, especially japanese games where they are handled as boobs and butt hangers.Lucky_Krystal

I play a lot of Japanese games and watch a lot of anime and yes, sometimes the portrayal of women in these specific forms of media is less than stellar. But here's the thing: I'm not okay with it all the time but I'm not going to make a huge fuss over it. If I do I'd probably get hit with a slew of "OMG STAWP WHINING! WHAT ARE YOU? A STOOPID FEMINIST? I LYKE BEWBS IN MA GAMES" comments. Its easier to just not buy the game or watch the anime in question. Like gamingqueen said, there is a whole genre (the ecchi genre) where this sort of thing is used for laughs and cheap titillation. I've had the misfortune of coming across some of these anime. A few of them I was outright disgusted by, so I simply just stopped watching them.

Crying about it in a forum won't make a difference. In fact, its ironic that you'd say it bothers you. Whenever topics having to do with gender and gaming come up in PGD, you're the first one to put forth some snarky "oh not this sh*t again" remark. So if comments like that are all one hopes to gain by "not being ok with how females are represented in games" then why bother? Its easier to just not buy the game. I think Dead or Alive Xtreme beach volleyball is one of the dumbest and most useless games out there. And I find its portrayal of female characters idiotic. So I won't buy it. They sure aren't getting any of my money, which usually translates into a "hey, make more of this sh*t!"

Also, I'd be interested in hearing about these flurry of Japanese games where women are handled as "boobs and butt hangers." Aside from hentai games and the game I mentioned above, I'm drawing a blank there.

Do opposite gender gamers upset you and why?karstenhanlin

No.

What are typical characteristics of the opposite genderkarstenhanlin

There are no typical characteristics, because everyone is an individual, with a mix of different ingredients that defines them as a person.  No one can, or should, be categorised or labelled simply through looks or words or appearance of character.  That would be disingenuous not only to them, but to yourself.

[QUOTE="Lucky_Krystal"]

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] What bothers me is how many girl gamers are ok with how females are represented in games, especially japanese games where they are handled as boobs and butt hangers.Black_Knight_00

I play a lot of Japanese games and watch a lot of anime and yes, sometimes the portrayal of women in these specific forms of media is less than stellar. But here's the thing: I'm not okay with it all the time but I'm not going to make a huge fuss over it. If I do I'd probably get hit with a slew of "OMG STAWP WHINING! WHAT ARE YOU? A STOOPID FEMINIST? I LYKE BEWBS IN MA GAMES" comments. Its easier to just not buy the game or watch the anime in question. Like gamingqueen said, there is a whole genre (the ecchi genre) where this sort of thing is used for laughs and cheap titillation. I've had the misfortune of coming across some of these anime. A few of them I was outright disgusted by, so I simply just stopped watching them.

Crying about it in a forum won't make a difference. In fact, its ironic that you'd say it bothers you. Whenever topics having to do with gender and gaming come up in PGD, you're the first one to put forth some snarky "oh not this sh*t again" remark. So if comments like that are all one hopes to gain by "not being ok with how females are represented in games" then why bother? Its easier to just not buy the game. I think Dead or Alive Xtreme beach volleyball is one of the dumbest and most useless games out there. And I find its portrayal of female characters idiotic. So I won't buy it. They sure aren't getting any of my money, which usually translates into a "hey, make more of this sh*t!"

Also, I'd be interested in hearing about these flurry of Japanese games where women are handled as "boobs and butt hangers." Aside from hentai games and the game I mentioned above, I'm drawing a blank there.

I really don't agree with mentioning Bayonetta as an example of a game which objectifies women because this is a game made by a man who threatened to sue anyone who uses his character in hentai/doujin. I doubt anyone who thinks Bayonetta is a "women objectifying game" really understands her character. She's a silly bitch. She uses her femininity whenever its convenient to her and is ready to give a cock block as soon she gets what she wants. The only "disproportionate" thing about her is her head but that's because the game uses one character model for the scenes and in-game parts. No I'm not seeing cannon like boobs. I'm not seeing a jiggly ass or girly giggles. All I see is a grown up, mature and strong woman who finds joy in taunting men who approach her with impure thoughts. 

I find the new tomb raider to be sexist. Because it went from being a game about sight seeing and artifact hunting to a game that celebrates the evolution of a woman through killing? Wow. This very rhetoric of witnessing a woman transforming from someone who used to cry everytime she ran into a corpse to a killing machine is very very sexist. Not all women cry at the scene of dead bodies. Not all woman cry after something tragic happens like a plane crash or killing for the first time. Empowerment through killing is a whole different topic so I'm going to leave that for later. 

I really don't agree with mentioning Bayonetta as an example of a game which objectifies women because this is a game made by a man who threatened to sue anyone who uses his character in hentai/doujin. I doubt anyone who thinks Bayonetta is a "women objectifying game" really understands her character. She's a silly bitch. She uses her femininity whenever its convenient to her and is ready to give a cock block as soon she gets what she wants. The only "disproportionate" thing about her is her head but that's because the game uses one character model for the scenes and in-game parts. No I'm not seeing cannon like boobs. I'm not seeing a jiggly ass or girly giggles. All I see is a grown up, mature and strong woman who finds joy in taunting men who approach her with impure thoughts. gamingqueen

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]I really don't agree with mentioning Bayonetta as an example of a game which objectifies women because this is a game made by a man who threatened to sue anyone who uses his character in hentai/doujin. I doubt anyone who thinks Bayonetta is a "women objectifying game" really understands her character. She's a silly bitch. She uses her femininity whenever its convenient to her and is ready to give a cock block as soon she gets what she wants. The only "disproportionate" thing about her is her head but that's because the game uses one character model for the scenes and in-game parts. No I'm not seeing cannon like boobs. I'm not seeing a jiggly ass or girly giggles. All I see is a grown up, mature and strong woman who finds joy in taunting men who approach her with impure thoughts. Black_Knight_00

That's what she's like. She laughs at men's intellect by portraying them as those creatures who can't see beyond her boobs just as Luca. I'm not trying to be a Jim Sterling and Sucker Punch movie is actually deep here but I believe Bayonetta is a great example of this case. 

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]I really don't agree with mentioning Bayonetta as an example of a game which objectifies women because this is a game made by a man who threatened to sue anyone who uses his character in hentai/doujin. I doubt anyone who thinks Bayonetta is a "women objectifying game" really understands her character. She's a silly bitch. She uses her femininity whenever its convenient to her and is ready to give a cock block as soon she gets what she wants. The only "disproportionate" thing about her is her head but that's because the game uses one character model for the scenes and in-game parts. No I'm not seeing cannon like boobs. I'm not seeing a jiggly ass or girly giggles. All I see is a grown up, mature and strong woman who finds joy in taunting men who approach her with impure thoughts. gamingqueen

That's what she's like. She laughs at men's intellect by portraying them as those creatures who can't see beyond her boobs just as Luca. I'm not trying to be a Jim Sterling and Sucker Punch movie is actually deep here but I believe Bayonetta is a great example of this case. 

I am one of the biggest male chauvinists you'll ever meet and yet I still get offended by how women are represented in games. The reason is that games like Dead or Alive, Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden 2, Soul Calibur, Final Fantasy X/2, Onechanbara and so on objectify everybody: women are objectified as simple excuses for boobs and weird fetishes and the male spectator is objectified because a certain part of the gaming industry expects us to consider sex a selling point. even the latest Tomb Raider pissed me off, since despite all the sh*t she goes through, Lara retains that scared fawn personality the whole game when she should be going insane.

I very much like female protagonists in video games (I played the whole Mass Effect trilogy as femshep, just to name one), but aside from WRPGs where characters are "unisex", in most cases females are written like crap, with an endless streak of sexual innuendos that are simply shallow and insulting. Which is why I often said that the industry needs more female writers, who can write good female leads (I often mention Rihanna Pratchett as an example, though I hate to admit that she kind of f*cked it up with Tomb Raider).

Then there's the oldest excuse in the book: "this game does not objectify women, because in this game they kick ass" which is incredibly stupid and even more insulting: according to them it's ok ok to represent women as sex dolls as long as you give them a sword. Perfect.

Black_Knight_00

Did you just...admit to being a male chauvinist? That's nothing to be proud of :|

That aside, I forgot about Onechanbara. That's another stupid game I'd rather not play. I don't agree with your choices of Final Fantasy X-2 and Bayonetta as examples of objectifying women though. Speaking strictly sexual objectification, the female characters in neither of these games it put to the level of a mere object. They are given a leading role in the story and physical power. They are given personalities, albeit one dimensional ones (but the other characters in both games, including the males, are as well). They are given character development, albeit its very minimal seeing as neither game's stories are anything to write home about. No male characters in either game are showed, explicitly or implicitly, to be superior to the female characters. Yuna, Rikku, and Paine are the ones sent out to do all the dirty, physical, and dangerous work, while the male gullwings members are mostly for driving the airship and info gathering. Bayonetta too, taunts Luca, curb stomps Father Baldur, and clearly isn't afraid of Rodin seeing as, in the beginning of the game, she threatens to "bust a cap in his ass" if he gets in her way. I'm not seeing the sexism or objectification here. Unless you think sexy outfits are grounds for something being sexist. In that case...I'm not even getting into that argument.

Also, how are men sexually objectified by women being sexually objectified in a video game? That made no sense. And your assertion about getting more female writers in the gaming industry is pretty much the only thing in your post that I agree with. The people who attack sexy female characters commonly say they do it because "its not good for gaming, I don't want it to be seen as a boy's club." Ok. Then how about we focus on real life issues of why gaming is supposedly such a boy's club. Attacking fictional female characters in the name of "equality" just seems so useless to me. I mean, if the character truly is offensive then by all means, attack it. But unfortunately our culture's been trained to see sexism against women when it sometimes isn't even freaking there.

Naturally, if the industry were more diverse, this issue of "not enough minority and female characters" and "females and minorities are being portrayed negatively" will iron itself out. If they don't want to be seen as a "boy's club" then fix issues in the REAL world. People would be better off educating and encouraging young women to go in to the gaming industry instead of complaining about the size of some sorcerress' breasts and getting each other fired over "forking dongles" jokes.

I have a bunch of girl gamers on my systems' friend lists and think it's great to see females interested in the hobby. I also have female family members that I frequently encourage to try a wide range of gaming genres.

And your assertion about getting more female writers in the gaming industry is pretty much the only thing in your post that I agree withLucky_Krystal

[QUOTE="Lucky_Krystal"]And your assertion about getting more female writers in the gaming industry is pretty much the only thing in your post that I agree withBlack_Knight_00

I hardly agree with anything you ever say; glad we finally see eye to eye on at least that. And anyway, shallow characters are something that pervade video game stories. The characters in Final Fantasy XIII were just as poorly written. That points to a different issue entirely, that is, the immaturity of video game stories and how poorly written and executed they tend to be. I also don't think FF X-2's characters are something women can identify with and look up. I never said that, so I have no idea where that came from. I was just saying, the game wasn't sexist like you implied.

Also, if you had said something like "I am the biggest men's rights activist you'll ever meet" then I'd have found nothing wrong with that. But you called yourself a chauvinist, which is not the opposite of a feminist (in fact, some feminists can be chauvinists). That word closely relates to words such as "bigot" and "sexist." You mean to tell me that you identify as a bigot?

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="Lucky_Krystal"]And your assertion about getting more female writers in the gaming industry is pretty much the only thing in your post that I agree withLucky_Krystal

I hardly agree with anything you ever say; glad we finally see eye to eye on at least that. And anyway, shallow characters are something that pervade video game stories. The characters in Final Fantasy XIII were just as poorly written. That points to a different issue entirely, that is, the immaturity of video game stories and how poorly written and executed they tend to be. I also don't think FF X-2's characters are something women can identify with and look up. I never said that, so I have no idea where that came from. I was just saying, the game wasn't sexist like you implied.

Also, if you had said something like "I am the biggest men's rights activist you'll ever meet" then I'd have found nothing wrong with that. But you called yourself a chauvinist, which is not the opposite of a feminist (in fact, some feminists can be chauvinists). That word closely relates to words such as "bigot" and "sexist." You mean to tell me that you identify as a bigot?

It's not a matter of how the story is written: it's a matter of the characters being completely empty and centered on sexual appeal rather than any sort of substance, personality or meaning, it's character development that caters to the lowest possible instinct of the human male: the attraction to erogenous parts of the female, which is fine in small doses, but when it becomes the main focus I can't personally help feeling that my intelligence is being insulted and there's literally nothing else FFX/2 or some other games have going for them aside from the sex appeal. Nothing. People should learn to see sex in videogames for what it is: it's a bait to entice shallow males to buy the shallow game. Nothing else to it. Again, if you think Rikku is anything more than a sex object in FFX/2 just because she knows kung-fu, you are deceiving yourself. As for male chauvinism, here's a precisation: in my language we have a word "maschilismo" (specular to feminism) which has no proper translation to english (aside from the one I used, which is not quite fitting) which long story short means being proud of being a man. Hope that makes it a bit clearer. Aside from that, see it as you will, it's the exact same as "feminism" but I know people who still find that offensive though frankly I have never cared before and I doubt I'm about to start now.Black_Knight_00

I guess I could have explained that better. If writers/develpers need to stoop to making a character's entire existence depend on their sex appeal then that's some really poor writing to me. It does indeed cater to the lowest common denominator and its lazy to just make characters based around sex appeal, or any one characteristic for that matter. But the male characters of the game could have gotten the same treatment, which was the point I was trying to make with Final Fantasy X-2. ALL the characters, male and female are one dimensional. And in many games, all the characters are one dimensional stereotypes. So in a game where all the characters are poorly written, why are the female characters the only ones that get people all riled up? I guess this brings it back to your point of needing better writers (although they could be of either gender) in the industry.

Now I feel like your example is better suited to explain Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball. I mean, at least the entire story of FF X-2 wasn't based around sex, nor was the gameplay. DOA Volleyball takes women from a fighting game and puts them in a game where they roll around half naked, licking ice cream, and booty bumping each other for the player's pleasure. If we're going to talk about games that "insult your intelligence" or have no other redeeming qualities other than its sex appeal, then that's a perfect example.

Lastly, I wasn't aware of that whole Maschilismo thing. I still don't think "chauvinist" is a proper translation based on what you just said. You can be proud of who you are without seeing others who don't share your characteristics as being beneath you, which is what a male (or female) chauvinist is.

I guess I could have explained that better. If writers/develpers need to stoop to making a character's entire existence depend on their sex appeal then that's some really poor writing to me. It does indeed cater to the lowest common denominator and its lazy to just make characters based around sex appeal, or any one characteristic for that matter. But the male characters of the game could have gotten the same treatment, which was the point I was trying to make with Final Fantasy X-2. ALL the characters, male and female are one dimensional. And in many games, all the characters are one dimensional stereotypes. So in a game where all the characters are poorly written, why are the female characters the only ones that get people all riled up? I guess this brings it back to your point of needing better writers (although they could be of either gender) in the industry. Now I feel like your example is better suited to explain Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball. I mean, at least the entire story of FF X-2 wasn't based around sex, nor was the gameplay. DOA Volleyball takes women from a fighting game and puts them in a game where they roll around half naked, licking ice cream, and booty bumping each other for the player's pleasure. If we're going to talk about games that "insult your intelligence" or have no other redeeming qualities other than its sex appeal, then that's a perfect example. Lastly, I wasn't aware of that whole Maschilismo thing. I still don't think "chauvinist" is a proper translation based on what you just said. You can be proud of who you are without seeing others who don't share your characteristics as being beneath you, which is what a male (or female) chauvinist is.Lucky_Krystal

Make no mistake, they don't do it because they don't know any better: cranking up the sexual content is a very deliberate decision with a clear goal in mind: targeting the shallow immature portion of the male demographic. Scantily clad underage girls (yes, Rikku is a minor) are a sure-fire way to boost sales, like it or not (I don't, personally).

Dead or Alive Xtreme Volleyball is basically a porn game: it's just a few swimsuits and a couple hentai scenes away from Sexy Beach 3. If anything I can give it that it's more honest about what it's selling: it's a game about looking at unnaturally jiggly boobs and watching girls licking ice cream in such a way that (pardon my french) the player can pretend it's a d*ck. It's porn and if you buy it you know exactly what you're buying.

What pisses me off is when they introduce a female character in an otherwise completely normal game and make her act like a complete whore. Like Eva in MGS3, whose every other line is a sex innuendo and who spends the whole game with her jacket opened on her cleavage. Or Chloe in Uncharted, with her tired "gun in your pocket" jokes. Must the function of every woman in gaming be to provide sexual tension? Does the fact that they drive loud motorcycles and fire rifles excuse or compensate this? I think not.

Sometimes the objectification is less open, but hardly any more subtle: MGS Peace Walker, in the intro we are introduced to this completely inexpressive 16 years-old girl and the game urges you to (I kid you not) press a button to zoom in on her with some sort of x-ray glasses until her clothes disappear and only her underwear remains. How am I supposed to take such a character seriously when the game itself has no respect for her?
Or Miranda in Mass Effect 2&3: she's this genetically enhanced woman, super intelligent and super strong, but the game regularly moves the camera on her ass and boobs, like all the time. Again, how am I supposed to take this character seriously when the game constantly nudges me to tell me "yo bro, check out dat ass"? Again, this is deliberate: they wrote her genetically superior so that they could compensate for the fact that she's there for little more than eye candy. Plain and simple.

Black_Knight_00

Well I wasn't trying to excuse the inclusion of sex appeal and say "they don't know any better". I just thought Final Fantasy X-2 was a bad example of a game that had no other merits other than its sex appeal like you said. The fanservice is about as bad as the stuff you'd get in past and future Final Fantasies. The skimpy outfits are as bad as Tifa's, Cloud of Darkness', Rydia's, and Vanille's. And its a JRPG where you fight monsters so the sex doesn't trickle into the gameplay like it does with DOA Volleyball. And it very rarely appears in the story. And when it does its mostly light (the story is still cheesy as hell though). I just thought your view of it having "no redeeming qualities" was inaccurate.

And my response of "but the men are one dimensional too" was more so a response to the people who label a game or all games sexist on the grounds that female characters aren't very well written. Now, with the examples you listed, I'd have to agree that those are some cringe-worthy, out of place moments. In a serious narrative, there really is no place for blatant and out of place sexual fanservice like that. I, however, was trying to get across that it may point to the creator's creative ineptitude. I know "sex sells" but that's too easy and is hardly creative. I won't say I haven't played and enjoyed some games that have stuff like the examples you mentioned. But even still, I usually can't help but feel that its out of place. I feel like if the gameplay is strong enough then they don't need sex. If the plot is strong enough then they don't need ass shots and jiggling breasts. And if they wrote some better characters then we wouldn't have to sit through one dimensional stereotypes who's only merit is their sex appeal.

Unfortunatley, once something is out there its out there. Which is why instead of having endless debates about the debilitating effects of Laura Croft's boobs on young girls or the ass shots in Mass Effect, I think it'd just be better to change things from the inside. We can talk until we're blue in the face about this. But I just think what's happening in the real world is still more important. Like you said, getting more women in the industry, especially in writing might help. Though now that I think about it, creative talent is what the industry needs first and foremost, male or female. However a diverse set of people with a large number of different mindsets, values, and experiences would help immensely.

Like you said, getting more women in the industry, especially in writing might help. Though now that I think about it, creative talent is what the industry needs first and foremost, male or female. However a diverse set of people with a large number of different mindsets, values, and experiences would help immensely. Lucky_Krystal

[QUOTE="Lucky_Krystal"]I guess I could have explained that better. If writers/develpers need to stoop to making a character's entire existence depend on their sex appeal then that's some really poor writing to me. It does indeed cater to the lowest common denominator and its lazy to just make characters based around sex appeal, or any one characteristic for that matter. But the male characters of the game could have gotten the same treatment, which was the point I was trying to make with Final Fantasy X-2. ALL the characters, male and female are one dimensional. And in many games, all the characters are one dimensional stereotypes. So in a game where all the characters are poorly written, why are the female characters the only ones that get people all riled up? I guess this brings it back to your point of needing better writers (although they could be of either gender) in the industry. Now I feel like your example is better suited to explain Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball. I mean, at least the entire story of FF X-2 wasn't based around sex, nor was the gameplay. DOA Volleyball takes women from a fighting game and puts them in a game where they roll around half naked, licking ice cream, and booty bumping each other for the player's pleasure. If we're going to talk about games that "insult your intelligence" or have no other redeeming qualities other than its sex appeal, then that's a perfect example. Lastly, I wasn't aware of that whole Maschilismo thing. I still don't think "chauvinist" is a proper translation based on what you just said. You can be proud of who you are without seeing others who don't share your characteristics as being beneath you, which is what a male (or female) chauvinist is.Black_Knight_00

The female characters in games like Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon were neither scantily clad or big breasted nor did they have corny lines dripping with sexual innuendo. At least RSE made female characters the equals of the male characters. I also remember that Grimsdotter in Splinter Cell was not an over the top character either. I guess it is all in the games one chooses to play whether or not female characters have overdrawn body parts or stupid lines.

They don't bother me. In fact, one of the things that has given me a lot of hope for the hobby has been the influx of female gamers. One of the best people I've met (in real life or otherwise) has been a female on the Gamespot forums. We would talk about games for hours and hours just like a couple of dorks, and what's funny is that we really aren't all that different. She likes some games that I can't stand, and vice-versa, but the reasons we play games are very much the same. On top of that, she is very good at dissecting the mechanical aspects of video games, which has always made her a lot of fun to talk to. 

Gender differences are overrated.

The female characters in games like Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon were neither scantily clad or big breasted nor did they have corny lines dripping with sexual innuendo. At least RSE made female characters the equals of the male characters. I also remember that Grimsdotter in Splinter Cell was not an over the top character either. I guess it is all in the games one chooses to play whether or not female characters have overdrawn body parts or stupid lines.WhiteKnight77

Unfortunately only about one gamer in ten is female (that is not counting the casual crowd and focusing on people who would play Uncharted or Metal Gear Solid). Game designers see this and think "Hmm: 90% of the audience won't be offended by the female lead acting like a whore, let's continue using this to sell the game." Likewise, 1 game in 100 is written by a woman (Deus Ex HR being a notable exception). Women in general still have little interest in this medium, that much is clear. What happens if these numbers were to increase? Would more dignified female characters be written? Or would the female audience not mind and still relate to the same old sexually charged characters?Black_Knight_00

10%? Wow, that's the lowest number I've seen thus yet. I know the "50% of gamers are female" usually end up including smart phone and casual game players. But for the "hardcore" crowd, I've seen some surveys say women make up about 20-30% of the demographic, which sounds a bit more realistic than 50% or 10%.

Anyways, even if more female talent came in to the industry, we'd still have those sexually charged characters. It happens in other forms of media as well, so "sex selling" isn't going to change. However, there would be more dignified female characters to balance it out. Hopefully more dignified and well rounded characters in general as we get more creative talent, male or female, into the industry that are willing to take risks. It seems like there's beginning to be a shift in attitudes in the gaming industry. And with digital downloading, there's a grand opportunity for indie developers that wasn't available in previous gens.

I'll make your life easier: no one said there aren't any dignified female characters, hell I can name quite a few, but they are a minority compared to the objectified ones. I say it's a deliberate choice, Lucky_Crystal says it's because of poor writers and I think she has a point too: I know I write my female characters in a different way and I sure wish the gaming industry ditched the juvenile stuff and did the same.Black_Knight_00

Yeah, I was just going to say this too. I initially disagreed with you because of the examples you used and not understanding your point (I didn't mean to come off as a douche so much either). But, I don't think either of us is wrong. Perhaps its just two different parts of one problem. Instead of doing something new, creative, and innovative, they purposely work by this template....

1. Boobs and Ass

2. ????

3. Profit

...Because its easy, its not risky, and they know it sells while requiring little creative effort on their part.

Yeah, and that's just awful. The gaming industry needs to understand that they can't keep relegating women to the role of eye candy. We have hundreds of great, multifaceted male characters in gaming, and there's so much that can be done on the female side of the coin if only they tried harder and took some risks instead of playing it safe. Japan is pretty much hopeless, even Metal Gear is going to sh*t on this aspect: I finished Peace Walker and remember that 16 y/o girl I mentioned? There's a bonus mission where you (39 years-old Big Boss) need to go on a date with her and the goal is to grope her and have her curl up inside the famous MGS cardboard box with Big boss and supposedly have sex (hearts come out and the box shakes as weird noises happen). That's simply f*cking pathetic. Just look So yeah: Japan is doomed on this regard, they won't get their head out of the gutter anytime soon I wager, so it's up to the West to stop the objectification trend.Black_Knight_00

Wow that is just...wow...I don't know what to say to that. :shock:

I have to agree with you on Japan being almost hopeless. I mean, I really hate to, because some of my most favorite games of all time are Japanese games. But I'd have to agree (somewhat) with Keiji Inafune's assessment on the Japanese gaming industry. They're years behind and they need new creative talent that are willing to take risks even more than the West does. I don't think every Japanese game needs to be "westernized" because I think some game's quirky Japanese style really add to the experience. And I think a really good game would be appealing to both the east and the west. But still, he's got a point.

Though I still think Atlus is doing well with their games. I mean sure, Catherine had a risque cover and in the game you get sent some questionable photos of Catherine. Also, there are alternate costumes in Persona 3 that's basically a bikini chain mail. But other than that, they have great female and male characters in their games. Mitsuru, Yukari, and Aegis from Persona 3 and Chie, Rise, and Naoto from Persona 4 are probably some of my favorite female game characters. There are multiple facets to their personalities that make them interesting AND they develop as characters in the main story and through their social links. I also thought Catherine explored some interesting themes and had some pretty good characters. I look forward to pretty much anything Atlus puts out in the future. I'm interested in whatever Inafune puts out too.

Even still, those are just two companies. I'm expecting the West as a whole to make more strides away from the cheap objectification trend before the Japanese gaming industry does.

Wow that is just...wow...I don't know what to say to that. :shock:

I have to agree with you on Japan being almost hopeless. I mean, I really hate to, because some of my most favorite games of all time are Japanese games. But I'd have to agree (somewhat) with Keiji Inafune's assessment on the Japanese gaming industry. They're years behind and they need new creative talent that are willing to take risks even more than the West does. I don't think every Japanese game needs to be "westernized" because I think some game's quirky Japanese style really add to the experience. And I think a really good game would be appealing to both the east and the west. But still, he's got a point.

Though I still think Atlus is doing well with their games. I mean sure, Catherine had a risque cover and in the game you get sent some questionable photos of Catherine. Also, there are alternate costumes in Persona 3 that's basically a bikini chain mail. But other than that, they have great female and male characters in their games. Mitsuru, Yukari, and Aegis from Persona 3 and Chie, Rise, and Naoto from Persona 4 are probably some of my favorite female game characters. There are multiple facets to their personalities that make them interesting AND they develop as characters in the main story and through their social links. I also thought Catherine explored some interesting themes and had some pretty good characters. I look forward to pretty much anything Atlus puts out in the future. I'm interested in whatever Inafune puts out too.

Even still, those are just two companies. I'm expecting the West as a whole to make more strides away from the cheap objectification trend before the Japanese gaming industry does.

Lucky_Krystal

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]The female characters in games like Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon were neither scantily clad or big breasted nor did they have corny lines dripping with sexual innuendo. At least RSE made female characters the equals of the male characters. I also remember that Grimsdotter in Splinter Cell was not an over the top character either. I guess it is all in the games one chooses to play whether or not female characters have overdrawn body parts or stupid lines.Black_Knight_00

No, Rainbow Six is not a bad example and I am referring to nothing made after Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear: Black Thorn. I am nto talking about anything made by Ubisoft, not Lockdown, not Vegas, and not Vegas 2. Rainbow Six and Rogue Spear both had stories (though most people couldn't see it, but remember, Tom Clancy wrote a book in conjunction with the game even though bits are different between the two). As far as SC, it is typical of other Ubisoft Tom Clancy games, a shadow of it's former self and now just a cookie cutter game. No suprise that Grimsdottir has been changed from who she was to someone else.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]The female characters in games like Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon were neither scantily clad or big breasted nor did they have corny lines dripping with sexual innuendo. At least RSE made female characters the equals of the male characters. I also remember that Grimsdotter in Splinter Cell was not an over the top character either. I guess it is all in the games one chooses to play whether or not female characters have overdrawn body parts or stupid lines.WhiteKnight77

No, Rainbow Six is not a bad example and I am referring to nothing made after Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear: Black Thorn. I am nto talking about anything made by Ubisoft, not Lockdown, not Vegas, and not Vegas 2. Rainbow Six and Rogue Spear both had stories (though most people couldn't see it, but remember, Tom Clancy wrote a book in conjunction with the game even though bits are different between the two). As far as SC, it is typical of other Ubisoft Tom Clancy games, a shadow of it's former self and now just a cookie cutter game. No suprise that Grimsdottir has been changed from who she was to someone else.