Cookie Cutter JRPG

I am not sure if this topic has been discussed or not; outside of memes ,but JRPG games, especially the ones in which you move as a party, hasn't changed all that much. I am currently playing Ni Nu Kuni 2. There are several areas in which the game improves on the overall experience but, the core is still strong.

There are several issues I currently would like to see addressed in JRPG and in some other games

• Useless player input. This can come in two main forms. One is the question that only has one real answer and the other is allowing the player to manually move from one story cutscene to the next by moving a few steps forward. Why even bother doing any of the above? Simply decide on the player's action since it already decided and just make one long cutscene (skippable) instead of breaking it up for a mundane forward action to trigger.
• Confirmation. This feature is very common in not only JRPGs but it most Japanese developers games. This is where almost every action has a confirmation prompt screen for the player to accept that the action they performed was just performed. Or the item that was transferred or received has been transferred or received. Its even more confusing when the game features onscreen log of what has transpired.
• Protagonists are bystanders. How many times have anyone experience the protagonist literally standing and watching the boss/bad guy perform their action to completion before doing anything. Come on. We are too far in game development to be doing this lazy method of story telling and exposition.
• Land of Statues. NPCs are practically useless. They can't do anything at all. They literally stand around with contrived problems solely for the player to solve. Most if not all sidequests revolves around the same formula of fetch quest and kill something. The kill something is less of a problem than the mundane fetch quest that is typically a brain dead exercise of padding game time. "I lost my wallet, can you find it?", "I would like to get a bag of flour, can you get it form me?"
• Hidden Pre-requisites. We all can relate to the quest which appears to be simple. It can be "Head to the tower". This simple task transition to :- The bridge is out, the person who can fixed the bridge is not there, the person who can fixed the bridge needs to be rescued. The person is rescued but needs a special medicine to recover. After they recover they found out that they don't have wood for the bridge. The wood can harvested in the forest but its blocked by impassable rocks. The rocks can be destroyed by bombs made by Kyle. Kyle is willing to help but he needs you to get some special flowers for his wife. The flowers are protected by a beast that you must kill. Once you have done this you will get the bomb for the blockage, the wood for the bridge and then the bridge can be built once you return from doing other things.
• Animation templates. If you pay not too close of attention you can easily spot it. All of the interaction animations are damn near identical regardless of the game. Thinking animation (hand on chin with head down). Character wears glasses (Needs to push up glasses every time they talk). Shocked animation (Pull back with a gasp). Chilled animation (Hand behind head). Idle female (stand with knees bend inward with forearms outward). Celebrate animation(fist pump). There is more but you can see it in all of them.
• Rapid Evolution. The story typically starts with low tech and low stakes. This eventually become high tech and high stakes practically all the time. It doesn't matter how ancient or backward you start out, there is going to be robots and computers of some sort. It doesn't matter how trivial the first problem is, you are going to prevent the destruction of the world.
• Royal Somebody. Just stop. Learn how members of a royal family interact and behave. They are not errand servants or people you casually interact with. Simply stop making these titled and far removed positions the main protagonist.

Needless to say there is a lot more but this is already wordy as it stands. Note that this is not limited to JRPG or JRPG games but JRPG games have a tendency of implementing these things like clock work. Why aren't they evolving?

Yeah I've tried and tried and tried to enjoy JRPGs but if Dragon Quest XI (or whatever installment they're on...) is the best the genre has to offer....well, no thanks.

I just don't see the appeal. To be fair I am sure some people have tried Icewind Dale, Planescape, Pillars of Eternity, and Pathfinder: Kingmaker and thought the same thing.

I will keep on trying, though; there is little risk when they are on sale for 5 bucks a year or two down the road.

JRPG is such an odd term I frequently see American gamers use here. Believe the term originated when journalists didn't know any better, and somehow sticks around even now.

Most call the games you reference TB(turn-base) RPG. Matsuda Takehisa san has stated many times using "JRPG" confuses more people than it benefits. And I heavily agree.

At any rate I've read a lot of people didn't like the Ni no Kuni sequel, it was known to had budget cuts and development issues. While Queen of White Sacred Ash is held in very high regard. So using the inferior sequel to categorise RPG games that come from Japan seems odd to me.

As someone who has played neither seems to me not all games should have sequels. And that's it simply. As creativity can run dry. Sequels can come across as forced and rigid when no one wants to work on them.

Just look at American Wrestling games and how terrible they are.

@RSM-HQ: You seem to have missed the point that I am currently playing this game and the issues found in this game can be found in other JRPGs. I am not sure why you missed that point. This is not the first and only JRPG that I have played.

@mrbojangles25:I got this game on sale, like most of the JRPGs that I play. They all suffer from the same issues.

@Pedro:

You seem to have missed the point

No I understood well, just tipped my view on the subject. Your post is largely listing tropes which can frankly be found/or for/ criticising any gaming genre. For example why is any game with a gun 'shoot first ask questions later' level of mentality. When you think about any game one can bring up, it's victim of some kind of nonsensical trope(s).

The point I made was a mix between using a mediocre received sequel as the prime example of errors and the terminology for when you used it three times in one sentence.

Note that this is not limited to JRPG or JRPG games but JRPG games have a tendency of implementing these things like clock work.

Stuck-out like a sore thumb.

But high in large I agree with your nit picking. I just think it spans more than just Turn-base RPG games from Japan.

@Pedro:

You're basically asking JRPGs to stop being JRPGs. It's a part of the charm. You either like it or you don't. It would lose its identity if it just copied what other genres are doing. I like the fresh change of pace they bring, as opposed to the other genres.

@nepu7supastar7:Its not a fresh change of pace. Its the same type of game that they have been making for the past two decades from a variety of developers. Do you also find unskippable cutscenes charming? :P

This isn't an issue of copying other games. They already copy from each other in story tropes, art, animation and overall game design. This is more on the issues with the game design implementation that negatively affects the experience.

The things mentioned are not just tropes of a genre its actual flawed mechanics regardless of the game. The addressing of these issues doesn't make the game less of a good game or less of JRPG. Its just makes them better games. If you view these as fundamental to a good JRPG then so beit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also this is not limited to turn base JRPGs. I found these issues present in both real time and turn based.

@Pedro:

"This is more on the issues with the game design implementation that negatively affects the experience."

How does it effect your experience negatively? Because you're tired of the same tropes? It's a game. Games are meant to have some level of repetition. It's like asking Chess to be something else. It's Chess, not Poker. You want cards, play a card game. This is Chess!

Like with JRPG. You go there for narrative, dungeon-crawling, level grinding, fetch quests, kill quests, escort quests, skiffs, the works. If it didn't have this crap, it wouldn't be a good rpg. This might sound boring and lame to you but I love it! Absolutely love it! 💕 And the genre doesn't need changing. It's perfect the way it is.

Hmm, they seem very subjective problems honestly. Not factually an issue really. Now if you stated a feature was broken, unresponsive, or borderline unplayable we'd have something to work with.

You have a preference and nothing wrong with that. However that doesn't make it everyone's.

Also not sure why you assume what I value in gaming. Don't really play many Turn-base RPGs honestly, last one I valued as excellent is a German SRPG called Divinity: Original Sin II. Notably it has all the things you call "flawed mechanics" (Are you really sure prompt, Royal errand servant, NPCs that live to hand quests, reused animation assets, small stakes to world breaking end of the world, etc, etc)

So in hindsight think if you consider all those things bad? better to avoid that game as well.

Worth noting basically every developer that makes an RPG follows the influence from old tabletop and card games popular in the 1970's. All those flawed guidelines as you view, are rules from games like Dungeons and Dragon's almost to a fault.

Also this is not limited to turn base JRPGs. I found these issues present in both real time and turn based.

Still don't follow your logic for separating TB-RPG in Japan from everywhere else on the planet but whatever. Seems as though you like making that separation. They are all inspired by tabletop gaming in a very particular way regardless.

All-in-all don't mind what you dislike or what have you in games. No harm, no foul dood. Just slung my words of thought at the topic as we all do 〜(꒪꒳꒪)〜

Happy gaming.

Why would you ask me how it negatively affect my experience after I listed 8 common issues? There are many games in this genre of games that have improved the overall game design. Are you trying to argue that there is no room for improvement? Are you saying that critiquing a game type and pointing out ways to improve the game is going to ruin the game? Are you also trying argue that the positive changes negatively affects the game because the genre is "perfect the way it is"? I can conclude that you are not being rational.

You are incorrectly equating preference to good design practices. If someone prefers bad design it doesn't automatically make it good. People enjoy poorly made games and even these folks can point of the issues with these poorly made games despite enjoying it.

I have also played Divinity II and it also has it share of issues that can be improved upon. Does that mean these issues should not be discussed? Should gamers avoid games if they are going to criticize games? Are games only to be enjoy if there are no criticism for the game?

Which of the issues I have stated are RULES from Dungeon and Dragons? Its odd that you mentioned DnD when JRPGs tend to furthest away from the formula.

@Pedro:

But you didn't really list problems. You just listed consistencies and common videogame logic. It's kind of irrational to call them problems when they've been serving the industry well since the dawn of time. You're right that they exist almost everywhere but that doesn't have to mean that they're a problem.

Normally, you'd go to a different genre if you didn't like a certain one. I can tell you plenty of complaints I have against sports games or racing games but that's just me. Addressing my complaints wouldn't necessarily improve the genre, it would just be making it more convenient for me to play it. But some people (people who are fans of said genre) actually like those quirks.

@nepu7supastar7: I listed problems. If you don't see them as problems that is fine. But the argument that it has worked for so many years is not entirely true. JRPGs have moved away from turned based, unskippable cutscenes and random encounters among other things. The things listed are still issues that I see as need addressing. You can keep the "quirks" but refinement of the game itself is still beneficial to the genre as a whole. It's not a coincidence that JRPGs are in such a drought for the past 10 years and the majority of this generation.

There are benefits to improving on what is already established. Believing it's perfect just the way it is does not aid the genre. In fact it does the opposite.

@Pedro:

So then everyone who enjoys JRPGs the way they are now should get left out? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm tired of all these genres trying so hard to evolutionize. Now, you got rpg elements in games like GTA and Resident Evil. Game genres that have "evolved" are basically muddied versions of what they used to be. Poor Final Fantasy XV turned into a lazy hack and slash adventure game with bad writing and poor world design. It would kill me if I saw my favorite JRPGs turn into that.

Besides, you've been playing Ni No Kuni. It's basically the Diet Coke of JRPGs. A bland flavored version of something good. Like you, I also have a hard time enjoying those games tbh. But that's more to do with the game itself and less with the genre. It hits *every* basic JRPG trope imaginable. Even more than Final Fantasy and Atelier. I'm talking more about JRPGs like Tokyo Xanadu, Trails of Cold Steel, Ys VIII, Persona 5, Blue Reflections and Hyperdimension Neptunia.

@Pedro:

Look at what you listed. They have reasons for being used.

1. "Player Input". Games these days use this logic alot to drive their heavy narrative. Well, it's boring just *watching* videogame action sequences. Suddenly you're no longer in control and you just get reminded of how limited the gameplay is. Where's the fun in that? At least you can add a fail animation if you mess up a player input moment. You can't do anything if it's just a cutscene.

2. "Confirmation". Haven't you ever accidentally pressed something that you didn't want to? Well that's your failsafe. Like when you're in a shop in Skyrim and accidentally hit (X) and steal an item. But the game doesn't see that as a mistake. Suddenly you're wanted for stealing. Confirmation eliminates that issue.

3. "Protagonists Are Bystanders." This is just a basic in storytelling. You're right that it doesn't make sense in the real world but it makes things easier for the writers. This goes way beyond just JRPGs. Anime shows do it too. Like Dragonball Z, when Frieza was going to destroy Namek. If Goku wanted to, he could've easily stopped the Death Ball from forming. But then, the same thing could be said about Goku charging his Kamehameha. Sure you could let it get interrupted but that ruins the flow of the story. Suddenly attacks have to be changed in general.

4. "Land of Statues." More basic game logic. This is probably the oldest of it. Well think about how short videogames would be if you suddenly took them off. Suddenly FF7 is less than 20-something hours and all you have left is the main story line. Where the hell is the meat? That would literally kill the biggest draw in rpgs as a whole! Subquests add more padding to rpgs so that you always have a reason to keep grinding. You're not just grinding for the hell of it. Games like Witcher 3 take this method and write heavy stories to keep the basic quests interesting. They're a perfect example of how you can keep the logic while keeping you invested.

5. "Hidden Pre-requisites." This part goes to storytelling as a whole, which is conflict, conflict, conflict. A boring story is one where everything goes exactly how it was supposed to. You woke up, had a great day. No one picked on you at school or work. Your car worked just fine. Traffic was fine, etc. The worst quests are the ones that are that simple. Look at how intricate they can get when you add more obstacles! A bridge is out, so you have to find another way around. ANYTHING can happen to you from there. You can jump into a lake and find a underwater cave or find someone who can fix it and that person can be recruited. The possibilities are endless. Why eliminate that?

6. "Animation Templates." This method is not only cost efficient but saves time in animation. Maybe it's fine for a 8 hour adventure but it would be a nightmare for a 30+ hour JRPG. Imagine animating every single time someone talks and does something as simple as looking at the player with concern. If you already made an animation of someone sitting down or crossing their arms, why should you go through the trouble of doing it all over again? So that it looks slightly different from last time? You'd just be piling up more work on the animators.

7. "Rapid Evolution." Stories about heroism typically start from a small beginnings to something greater. It just wouldn't make sense to start anywhere else. But again, this goes to stories about heroism. Some JRPGs like Atelier are just a slice of life. Which could include some girl just wanting to get better at her favorite hobby. Not every JRPG follows this trope.

8. "Royal Somebody." Again. Not every JRPG does this but most that do make royal characters humble so that you, the player won't hate them and still find them somewhat relatable. It would be pretty lame if that character just acted like real life royalty and you were restricted from basically, all interaction with them. Then why even bother making the character royalty at that point? It just kills the fun of it being a fantasy.

@nepu7supastar7:

1. Player Input.The context I am specifically referring to and you are actually agreeing with is that player input is useless in the scenario stated. It doesn't change anything. It only transitions the player from one cutscene to the next. That 3 seconds of moving the character from point A to B, adds nothing to the experience. I am not exaggerating about the 3 seconds. Just make it a bigger cutscene because the player input changes nothing about the events transpiring.

2. Confirmation. Again, the scenario that I specifically stated is not about a question being asked and you have to decide. Its when your actions have already been performed and they are confirming your action which is already done with a confirmation screen. You cannot change your actions because its already done but they are giving you a confirmation screen for the action.

3.Protagonists Are Bystanders. It being done by many studios and many shows doesn't make it good.. Its bad storytelling. Its bad staging. Its bad pacing. You are acting as if the story cannot be effectively told unless bad storytelling mechanics are implemented which is untrue.

4.Land of Statues. Investing time in the game loop is not the issue. The issue is the brain dead busy work of the vast majority of sidequests. There is a lot of room to improvement on sidequests. These games strive to create a believable world. Then invest time in making the world feel alive. Don't take the lazy route and repeat the same boring sidequest that has been repeated in so many games prior. Make it a meaningfull addition to the game than just "I am doing stuff".

5.Hidden Pre-requisites. What you described is very far from what I described. Things can happen on a journey. These things can transpire in a more organic manner. Making a simple obstacle a sequence or nested obstacles to the point where the original obstacle is lost in the fray of nonsensical sidetracking and padding does not add to a more meaningful experience. Changing this does not equate to everything going as plan.

6. Animation. If we are to follow that logic then why bother creating new assets for a new game? Just used the same from the last game or another game. The animations are almost copy and pasted from each other independent of studios. These animations are simply emotes. If you are are going to consume the player's time in a 60 hour game then invest the time in animation. Its the animators job to animate and this is coming from someone that teaches animation. :)

7. Rapid Evolution. As you have just stated, there is room for alternative storylines. Which is my point. Storylines don't need to all follow the identical trope of legacy games.

8. Royal Somebody. Why make the character royal if all of the elements of royalty is removed or ignored? If they are going to force the royalty trope at least spend some time making it meaningful instead of useless title that is far removed from the roles of the actual title.

Its worth noting that I appreciate what these games have to offer and believe that it can continue to excel at the elements they excel in while addressing the areas they royally suck in. ;)

@Pedro: Whaw, that's some puritanical response you have. . Yeah dood, not interested in continuing this conversation. Seem very stuck in your ways and make bold claims with only yourself to hold those stances on turn-base RPGs. How would anyone even begin?

I don't know what kind of replies you expected with your thread, however felt mine as genuine. Seems it rattled your feathers more than it should have. Wasn't even disagreeing with your gaming preference but you seem to think everyone else who thinks differently is wrong by default. . Do you realise how that comes across?

In future seems you'd be better off blogging these instead of shipping it on Games Discussion as a discussion thread. Considering you don't seem to want a genuine discussion on RPGs, just a one sided rant.

@nepu7supastar7: At this point believe our good host is arguing for the sake of argument in regards to our takes.

Better to move along and let someone else pitch into the thread, or just let this sink.

If he wants to head-canon his perfect RPG? let him.

I never indicated that my stance is with turn base RPGs. That is something you inserted without causation. You sidetrack into a different discussion that was not related to what was stated in the OP. So, this why I stated earlier there is some misunderstanding on your end.

If you don't want to participate in the discussion you are always free to ignore but please don't add things that wasn't stated and then argue on the things that was not stated.

@RSM-HQ:

I feel embarrassed for letting it get so far, but I get your point. I think I just need friends. :*(

@nepu7supastar7:

@nepu7supastar7: Not sure why you are embarrassed. You actually discussed the points presented. :)