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German group sues Valve

Federation of German Consumer Organizations claims Steam users own the games they purchase and should be able to re-sell them.

978 Comments

The Federation of German Consumer Organizations (VZBV) has filed suit against Half-Life maker Valve, claiming users should be able to resell the games they own.

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As reported by PCAdvisor, VZBV project manager Carola Elbrecht said Steam users should have the means to sell their digital wares, much in the same way that gamers can sell boxed products at their discretion.

"If I pay the full price for a game, then why am I not allowed to do with it what I want," Elbrecht said.

The VZBV reportedly warned Valve about potential legal action in September, but the company did not amend its practices to comply with the group's demands. Thus, the VZBV sued Valve in the District Court of Berlin this week.

A Valve representative told GameSpot that it has yet to see a formal complaint from the VZBV.

"We are aware of the press release about the lawsuit filed by the VZBV, but we have not yet seen the actual complaint," the company said. "That said, we understand the complaint is somehow regarding the transferability of Steam accounts, despite the fact that this issue has already been ruled upon favorably to Valve in a prior case between Valve and the VZBV by the German supreme court. For now, we are continuing to extend the Steam services to gamers in Germany and around the world."

The VZBV's prior legal entanglement with Valve went all the way to the German Federal Court of Justice. A judge ruled in 2010 that Valve's prohibition of user account transfers did not violate German law.

A European court ruled last summer that content creators can't prohibit post-purchase redistribution of work, no matter what end-user license agreement says.

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Slash_out

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Edited By Slash_out

I'd rather have huge steam sales than being able to sell my games. And steam sales are most likely dead if steam is forced to make that change (or people will buy game cheap and sell them for a higher price later).


So I'm not really happy about this.

Not to mention there is a difference between used digital and used physical.

People like to get a new shiny box, so if the box is used it comes with all the downside. So you still have an insentive for getting the games new.

There is none in digital sale. Who will buy a game new when he can get it at half price for EXACTLY the same thing? Devs will loose a lot, and it will be even harder on smaller devs teams.

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Avatar image for RealFabioSooner
RealFabioSooner

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All fine points, but none of these justify bypassing fundamental consumer rights.

It's a problem for Valve and the developers to solve. Passing it to the consumer just because it's a digital product is dishonest.

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Slash_out

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Edited By Slash_out

@RealFabioSooner

I find the regular steam sales compensation enough for loosing the right to sell games. But I do get that it's not the same for everyone.

There are ways to make this work though.

To avoid the death of smaller devs. The only comprise I think would work (comprises are always needed). Is to set a minimum price for selling the games and to give a cut to the dev perhaps 25%, and the rest to the user.

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edussz

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Edited By edussz

@RealFabioSooner @Slash_out Although almost every indie game have been in either steam or humble bundle sales, that just a way they have to advertise their games ... They make money selling in the every day market for 10 bucks. If people bought in this sales, and afterwars sell for 5 bucks, the devs would be screwed.
And "
Don't worry too much about the small devs"???? Have you saw how many devs are shutting down?

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Avatar image for RealFabioSooner
RealFabioSooner

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@Slash_out @RealFabioSooner Look. It's a common misconception that secondhand sales diminish firsthand sales. That's a myth. People who buy secondhand probably wouldn't buy firsthand anyway, and even if they would, the difference is offset by the fact that a percentage of money made via secondhand sales is re-invested in firsthand sales.

Don't worry too much about the small devs. Besides the facts mentioned above, since their games are cheaper, they're less of a target for secondhand sales. People who want to sell their games are less inclined to do so when they paid US$ 10 for it instead of US$ 40.

Just think about the Humble Bundle. Pretty much all the best indie games on Steam have already been available in the Humble Bundle at some point, for less than a dollar if you're so inclined. That didn't affect them, in fact it's a marketing tool that may have driven sales on Steam after the Bundle.

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Avatar image for MAD_AI
MAD_AI

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@Slash_out @RealFabioSooner

I agree, small indie devs rely too much on Steam, I can't imagine them being able to survive with users being able to resell their games.

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nu1mlock

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@Slash_out "Who will buy a game new when he can get it at half price" -- well, everyone who buys a game day1 or pre-purchase a game instead of waiting for a sale that will most probably happen a month or two later.

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AnthonyZ

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"Users should be able to resell the games they OWN." Agreed.

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deactivated-59930af094f34

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Yes - yes they should. So long as Gamestop can do it with any console & handheld game ... but shitty they are suing. Too many lawsuits ....

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vader501st

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Well...this is stupid.

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edussz

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Too me, I don't don't see the problem here... I live in Brazil, and buying games on Steam are MUCH cheaper.. Even full retail price. And not being able to pass to another acount, it is a deal you accepted when you signed up for Steam... Im okay with that...
Not mentioning that Steam gives you opportunity to buy games now and then for mere two bucks... The market for this kind of promotion would die if there were people buying cheap and gaing profit...
It's a choice you make when buying online. As long as there are retail options that you can buy and sell, I don't see why a new bussiness deal should adapt to an old one, if the old is still here...

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nu1mlock

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@edussz I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you would "trade in" a game back to Steam, they would still have gotten your money and next time you buy a game on Steam (with your in-store credit) they will get even more money. They won't lose a dime. Nor will the developers as people will do the same with "every" game.

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edussz

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@nu1mlock @edussz The thing that is being discussed is straight up selling rights... And I doubt that in-store credits would suffice for what the sues claims to want. And even that would create a whole new worldwide market of "used" brand new games that would DIRECTLY hurt Steam, and the devs.

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nu1mlock

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Edited By nu1mlock

@edussz @nu1mlock No, it wouldn't. Sure, you would get a game cheaper (real money-wise) but it's no different from purchasing a game on sale.

But sure, if EVERYONE saved their "trade-in-money" for a sale which would be cheaper than they had on their account. Then yes, Steam wouldn't get as much money, the developers would though (as they obviously would take the same cut as usual on a sale).

That has nothing to do with it though. It's legal to re-sell licenses in Europe, Steam doesn't allow you to do so.

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DrRockso87

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I pray they win. I'd kill to sell even half of the games I own on Steam that I'll never play ever again (or at all).

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Suaron_x

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Edited By Suaron_x

Why is America always behind the 8-ball? We need laws to protect our post-purchase redistribution of work, not belly-aching about how "guns don't kill people, video games do."

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demondogx

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yea... if this would happen that would also most likely be the end of steam sales... as mutch as id like to be able to resell i rather have the cheap sales

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Flubbbs

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Edited By Flubbbs

CD Projekt Red.. best dev studio in gaming

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nu1mlock

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Edited By nu1mlock

It'll be interesting to see what the Germans has to say about this.

I can understand why consumers would want to sell their licenses to other to gain a couple of Euros, but in my opinion it has to be done in a way where the developers can gain something from it. After all, I do believe the developers have the right to get some money for each person that purchase their game.

I mean, I'm all for getting games cheaper, but I also want to support the developer/publisher (which goes hand-in-hand except for indie-games).

One alternative could be to be able to "sell back" the game to Steam, gaining some in-store credit. Next purchase could be for another developer, but the same goes for other people (they "trade in" another game and buy the game you had). Since used digital goods have the exact same quality as a new digital goods, this is probably one of the best ways to deal with it.

Another alternative could be to use the Steam Marketplace to sell games. Although this would benefit the one purchasing the game for less money, it would never let the developer get barely any money (unless Steam change their fee to be higher).

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RealFabioSooner

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@nu1mlock "After all, I do believe the developers have the right to get some money for each person that purchase their game."

Unfortunately you are wrong. No creator/designer/manufacturer has any right over any second hand sale in any market: cars, washing machines, DVDs, books, nothing. Game creators are not a privileged class in that regard.

You want to support them, don't buy secondhand. It's that simple. It's been done by generations in all kinds of goods. It's about time gamers and the gaming industry encourage *that* instead of trying to corner those who buy secondhand.

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nu1mlock

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Edited By nu1mlock

@RealFabioSooner @nu1mlock You're absolutely right, they're not a privileged class (and shouldn't be) in that regard. However, they should ALL gain for PURCHASES of their game/book/movie/car/whatnot. Every single one of them. That's why I purchase my games through Steam/developer and not pirating and giving my money to some random dude that gave me the link to download the game.

It's about time people (not only gamers) encourage developers/manufacturers instead of just using their product without paying them for it.

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TheAgingGamer

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@RealFabioSooner @nu1mlock Nailed it.

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downloadthefile

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PC games differ from console games due to activation codes, so they'll probably lose. if it were an xbox or ps3 market issue then I wouldn't be surprised if they won.

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nu1mlock

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@downloadthefile Of course they differ because of the activation codes, but since it's legal to re-sell a license in Europe, it doesn't matter.

Steam already have the option to remove a game from your Steam library, they could very well implement a system where you not only remove it, but transfer it to another account.

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Icepick_Trotter

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Yes! Finally someone decides to take a stand against the greedy corporations and stop them from crushing us with their ridiculous limitations!

...And they start with Valve!?


That's like going back in time to kill all the nazis.... and starting with Schindler... :S

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RealFabioSooner

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@Icepick_Trotter Valve is the biggest distributor of digital software and is used by all the 'greedy corporations' in gaming - even EA, which still sells games through Steam, just not all of them anymore.

It's not that they're 'first', but they're the main target if you want to be able to resell digital copies of games. No other service sells more of these, not even XBLA and PSN.

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FAIL_TR0LL

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Wait, you can sue for that?

What a world!

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nu1mlock

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@FAIL_TR0LL That's nothing. You can apparently sue (and win) McDonalds for having hot coffee and burning yourself in America.

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FAIL_TR0LL

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Edited By FAIL_TR0LL

@nu1mlock @FAIL_TR0LL

Yeah, somebody just sued Subway because their footlong was only 11 inches.

I hate my life.

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decebal

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I hope they win. That would cause a precedent for all the other markets out there: appstore, amazon, xbox live, etc. It will be far batter for us consumers.

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