Was Final Fantasy VII good or bad for the industry, was it a blessing or a curse

Was FFVII good for the industry or did it have some negative side-effects that the industry unknowingly is experiencing today?

Here's what I mean:

I just recently bought Wild Arms Alter Code: f, the remake of the original Wild Arms for the PS1. This game has a interesting legacy because it was one of the first RPGs on the PS1 that was a saving grace for the RPG drought.....that is until FFVII came out. Than sadly since then, the RPG titles other than Final Fantasy only reached out to a niche crowd, and they seem to struggle or gave up on reaching out to that certain level of success and wide demographic that Final Fantasy acheives.

No matter what good FFVII brought to the industry, it may have caused some negative effects to the industry. It seems like the other developers, other than Square-Enix, who make RPGs, have stopped pushing the boundaries on how they can make their games better. A lot of these games like Suikoden, Wild Arms, the Tales' series, Atlus, Namco-Bandai, and the NIS titles have been pouring out countless sequels that really doesn't drastically improve or change from its previous installments. It almost seems like they stopped trying to compete and they only continue as long as they stay within their own box that the dominance of Final Fantasy put them in.

There have been some amazing RPG titles from developers like Level-5 such as Rogue Galaxy, and even cult hits like Shin Negumi Tensai, or Hack, but even these titles struggle to reach out on a mass level that the Final Fantasy games have been doing. Even titles developed by Square-Enix, other than Final Fantasy, hasn't found the same mainstream success. Quality games like Valkaryie Profile 2 and Dragon Quest VIII are good examples of this. Even on handhelds we're seeing this trend. A game like FFIII on the DS sells considerably more than niche RPGs like Etrian Odyssey for example. And this trend is surely to follow....hopefully this doesn't follow within the 360 market as Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon are soon to be released.

Maybe Final Fantasy VII brought RPGs to the mainstream here in the west, but it also brought "the Nintendo virus" along with it, meaning, the trend in how third-party developers struggle to compete against Nintendo's first-party games. So similarly, other RPG developers are struggling against the dominant Final Fantasy...ironically, this struggle is inside Square-Enix's own house as well, as their other titles struggle against their own dominant franchise.

I guess my hypothetical theory is this: if there was never a Final Fantasy VII, would other developers be pushing the quality of their RPGs instead of churning out similar sequels year after year? Since there is no dominant franchise that overshadows everything else, maybe the market would have 10 Final Fantasy-like franchises that compete with each other, kind of like how the NBA is today where the Mavericks, Suns, Spurs, Pistons, Cavs, Heat, and the Bulls all have (or had) the potential to win the championship, unlike 10-15 years ago where the Jordan's Bulls or the 90's Lakers dominated by themselves. Bad analogy, but I think you understand my point.

So no matter how much good FFVII did for the industry, I think it also brought a long some negative side-effects to the RPG industry. There will always be that niche crowd who plays whatever RPG is out there, and like every niche, the developers will probably follow their same routine of sequels to provide for them. This post probably relates mostly to the western market because the Japanese market for RPGs has been strong....but it still applies the same since Dragon Quest is Japan's most popular title and the west really never had a DQ game until the last one.

So all this pondering began with my purchase of the forgotten gem known as Wild Arms...if it wasn't for FFVII, perhaps we'll be arguing today how the PS3's trump-card is WAXIII and WAXIII versus. 8)

You bring up some interesting points here. My opinion would be that things would indeed have been different had VII not been released but I'm seeing things in a different light. I believe FFVII's greatness is due mostly to player hype. I played it; I loved it. It was a great game for it's time and even stands out now but the level of fanboyism around this game may very well be the reason things have turned out the way they are.

 In short I believe it is more of the players fault for this. Many people will not even touch another RPG because they believe nothing can compare to FF. It is true that FF seems to be number one on the RPG list but there are other great titles as you have specified that can compete. Wild Arms was a great PS1 RPG and though I haven't played much of AC:F I believe it to be a good game as well.  I have many different RPG's; that being said FFVII has been one of the most memorable for me as it has for many others. But I don't see this game as a "curse". If anything like I said hype has put this game too high though indeed usually for anything to be hyped this much means it has to be good in the first place.

Now my idea is more reflected of the consumer side. As for the other games as you've said do seem lacking in areas and others IMO are great and can be compared to the FF series. I don't believe it was VII's fault for any of this at all. It would have happened sooner or later with any RPG that pushed the limits. I see it as just being hyped up so much that it makes a lot of people reluctant to try new games out thinking that the FF series and Square are all there will ever be in this genre of video games. We all see it more now than ever how many arguments and foolish comments are made from fanboys.

I'll make this succinct:  It set a standard.  A standard, to which I beleive, judges all RPGs out there right now.

VII set the standard for PS1.  X set it for 2.  XIII will set it for 3.

Just my 2 cents 

Before FFVII, RPG (well more of JRPG) was far from being main stream genre. In Japan it was quite big genre but in USA, it was never really that big.

After FFVII, more people became fond of RPG genre and many different franchise started to arise. Shadow Heart series, Wild Arms series, Grandia series, Star Ocean series, etc all came around after FFVII (Well Star Ocean series didn't hit state side until FFVII came in)

It allowed industry to think that RPG does have potential to be great money maker and companies weren't afraid to make RPG games.

Also FFVII showed the door to the industry what RPG genre can be in 3D world. If anything FFVII has helped the genre greatly rather than to hurt it.

Mario dominated platform genre, but that doesn't mean Mario killed platform genre. Every genre has one dominating franchise that outsells others and RPG genre is no different and actually that is the reason why the genre can remain strong. Look at fighting game genre. Street Fighter is dominating game of the genre and it is dying, and so is the genre.  

Are you only talking about turn-based rpg's? cause if not than KH was a big seller and that reachd the mainstream well i think.

I guess my hypothetical theory is this: if there was never a Final Fantasy VII, would other developers be pushing the quality of their RPGs instead of churning out similar sequels year after year? Since there is no dominant franchise that overshadows everything else, maybe the market would have 10 Final Fantasy-like franchises that compete with each other,

So no matter how much good FFVII did for the industry, I think it also brought a long some negative side-effects to the RPG industry. There will always be that niche crowd who plays whatever RPG is out there, and like every niche, the developers will probably follow their same routine of sequels to provide for them. This post probably relates mostly to the western market because the Japanese market for RPGs has been strong....but it still applies the same since Dragon Quest is Japan's most popular title and the west really never had a DQ game until the last one.

ASK_Story

I'm not really sure that FF VII really had any negative impacts, other than allowing Square to continue to push the same ol' same ol', minus FF VIII of course. Other than VIII, Square really hadn't branched out much until FF XII.

As far as what FF VII did for the industry, there's a lot of myth and misunderstanding that comes up in the course of this discussion. FF VII DID NOT make RPGs mainstream. What it did was take a popular brand name, Final Fantasy, and handed the series over to the Sony platform giving the upstart Sony Playstation, a huge boost. FF the franchise, and not so much FF VII, helped sell more Sony Playstations, but for all of that, it did very little for the RPG genre.

There were other RPG franchises in existence before Final Fantasy and they will continue to thrive as they always have.

Was FFVII good for the industry or did it have some negative side-effects that the industry unknowingly is experiencing today?

I just recently bought Wild Arms Alter Code: f, the remake of the original Wild Arms for the PS1. This game has a interesting legacy because it was one of the first RPGs on the PS1 that was a saving grace for the RPG drought.....that is until FFVII came out. Than sadly since then, the RPG titles other than Final Fantasy only reached out to a niche crowd, and they seem to struggle or gave up on reaching out to that certain level of success and wide demographic that Final Fantasy acheives.

No matter what good FFVII brought to the industry, it may have caused some negative effects to the industry. It seems like the other developers, other than Square-Enix, who make RPGs, have stopped pushing the boundaries on how they can make their games better. A lot of these games like Suikoden, Wild Arms, the Tales' series, Atlus, Namco-Bandai, and the NIS titles have been pouring out countless sequels that really doesn't drastically improve or change from its previous installments. It almost seems like they stopped trying to compete and they only continue as long as they stay within their own box that the dominance of Final Fantasy put them in.

There have been some amazing RPG titles from developers like Level-5 such as Rogue Galaxy, and even cult hits like Shin Negumi Tensai, or Hack, but even these titles struggle to reach out on a mass level that the Final Fantasy games have been doing. Even titles developed by Square-Enix, other than Final Fantasy, hasn't found the same mainstream success. Quality games like Valkaryie Profile 2 and Dragon Quest VIII are good examples of this. Even on handhelds we're seeing this trend. A game like FFIII on the DS sells considerably more than niche RPGs like Etrian Odyssey for example. And this trend is surely to follow....hopefully this doesn't follow within the 360 market as Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon are soon to be released.

Maybe Final Fantasy VII brought RPGs to the mainstream here in the west, but it also brought "the Nintendo virus" along with it, meaning, the trend in how third-party developers struggle to compete against Nintendo's first-party games. So similarly, other RPG developers are struggling against the dominant Final Fantasy...ironically, this struggle is inside Square-Enix's own house as well, as their other titles struggle against their own dominant franchise.

I guess my hypothetical theory is this: if there was never a Final Fantasy VII, would other developers be pushing the quality of their RPGs instead of churning out similar sequels year after year? Since there is no dominant franchise that overshadows everything else, maybe the market would have 10 Final Fantasy-like franchises that compete with each other, kind of like how the NBA is today where the Mavericks, Suns, Spurs, Pistons, Cavs, Heat, and the Bulls all have (or had) the potential to win the championship, unlike 10-15 years ago where the Jordan's Bulls or the 90's Lakers dominated by themselves. Bad analogy, but I think you understand my point.

So no matter how much good FFVII did for the industry, I think it also brought a long some negative side-effects to the RPG industry. There will always be that niche crowd who plays whatever RPG is out there, and like every niche, the developers will probably follow their same routine of sequels to provide for them. This post probably relates mostly to the western market because the Japanese market for RPGs has been strong....but it still applies the same since Dragon Quest is Japan's most popular title and the west really never had a DQ game until the last one.

So all this pondering began with my purchase of the forgotten gem known as Wild Arms...if it wasn't for FFVII, perhaps we'll be arguing today how the PS3's trump-card is WAXIII and WAXIII versus. 8)

ASK_Story

I don't think your theory holds much water, to be perfectly honest.  I'm not saying you're wrong or that you didn't think it through; I just don't believe FF VII did ANY harm to the industry.  Your theory is that FF VII caused other RPG developers to get a little lazy, right?  That they'd be pushing harder if such a landmark game as FF VII didn't exist?  That is absolutely NOT the way developers work.  Groundbreaking achievements only cause the other competitors to strive harder.  I mean, if your theory was correct, that would mean that all survival/horror games after Alone in the Dark and the original Resident Evil have grown stagnant and haven't offered anything new.  That would be like saying that GTA III was such an unbelievable achievement, Rockstar let the sequels slide and never gave us anything as good...when in fact, that's really not the case.  Gears of War was amazing last year...does that mean it will hurt the originality, drive, ambition, or general striving for quality in future action titles?  Just because they know their chances of topping GeoW are slim?  I don't think so.

RPGs will always cater to a niche demographic...unless their name is "Final Fantasy."  That's just the way things are.  They'll never sell as much as the most popular sports or action titles out there, because most every RPG, even FFs, tend to target the more hardcore gamers.  It's been estimated that 80% of the game-playing market in the U.S. is "casual" - which makes sense - and that's why Madden and GTA will always, always, always sell more.  But I don't believe the Suikodens, for example, were any less in quality over the years because Konami was intimidated by FF VII and couldn't measure up.  Every developer wants to create something great; I would seriously doubt that FF VII did anything but motivate industry professionals, I can't believe for a second it did the opposite.  I honestly don't think we'd have the number of high-quality RPGs we have if it weren't for FF VII.

I just recently bought Wild Arms Alter Code: f, the remake of the original Wild Arms for the PS1. ASK_Story

Not to take this thread off topic, but can anyone please explain to me what the hell was the deal with that? I don't recall any huge clamoring in the RPG community for a remake of the original Wild Arms. Wild Arms Alter Code: F had to be the most random addition to the RPG market I've ever come across.

While I disagree over the gameplay merits of FF VII, I could at least comprehend a remake based off its overwhelming popularity in the West. But Wild Arms? Big time WTF.

You're over analyzing this.  It's really this simple; without Final Fantasy VII, the jRPG genre may never have taken off.  At the very least it would have taken several more years.  So it's safe to say that the majority of jRPGs you played be they good or bad would never have been developed. So if you've liked more than half the jRPGs that you've played over the last 10 years, regardless of innovatios, then yes FFVII was a good thing.Robio_basic

This is true.  The fact is, FF7 brought in a ton of gamers who had never played an RPG before into the genre.  I had been playing games since the Atari 2600 and had never played an RPG of any kind until FF7.  I think many gamers who liked FF7 were more willing to try other RPGs after that.  I can't see it as anything other than good for the industry.

It depends...It made RPGs far more noticable. It brought RPGs more west you can say.

But how it did it...It is questionable. As someone already stated. FFVII Fanboys...Pretty much this is unquestionable the holy grail, god's gift, ultimate RPG. Kind of like how Fallout fanboys are now...Where...Well its good...BUT....Can never be as good as that. You can say they live in a world of nostalgia.

But the fault to why it became big was...It was one of the first games where if a game is pretty...Quality is not needed. It had those CGs. Which were unquestionable the most important to making that the most sucessful RPG on consules. It was the first time people saw graphics like that. The quality of game really did not matter...It was more like...ZOMG!!! PRETTY!!! It was one of the first games were graphics could truly overshadow anything else and sell a game 

[QUOTE="ASK_Story"]

I just recently bought Wild Arms Alter Code: f, the remake of the original Wild Arms for the PS1. MarcusAntonius

Not to take this thread off topic, but can anyone please explain to me what the hell was the deal with that? I don't recall any huge clamoring in the RPG community for a remake of the original Wild Arms. Wild Arms Alter Code: F had to be the most random addition to the RPG market I've ever come across.

While I disagree over the gameplay merits of FF VII, I could at least comprehend a remake based off its overwhelming popularity in the West. But Wild Arms? Big time WTF.

The Wild Arms series is actually kinda popular in Japan (In my understanding anyway).  From what I've heard, the Japanese really like the whole flavor of the "Western" (something that many Americans in general kinda lost their tast for about 20 years ago).  Combining the "Western" and an RPG is kind of a natural extension, considering there's an RPG out there for pretty much any culture setting you could think of.  Now...what does amaze me, is the fact that WA:acF was localized in English.  Wild Arms isn't so popular here.

For the record, I loved the original Wild Arms.  I remeber it far more fondly then FF VII.  I particularly love the music.  The Wild Arms games have some of the most beautiful scores on could ask for in a game.  On the other hand, I really didn't like the remake Alter Code F.  Combat flowed differently, took away my ability to buy items, and altered the power curve.  Just didn't like it...but I'm still going to buy the OST.

I do kind of miss the variety of great titles in the genre pre-FFVII (Super Mario RPG, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Eartbound, etc.). At the same time, though, Final Fantasy as a whole has really done a lot for the genre, and Final Fantasy VII is, in my opinion, no exception. I just hope that developers other than Square Enix can start putting out quality RPG's a little more often.o29

They do and they're more creative and innovative then ever before, it's just that they're only found on handhelds. 

[QUOTE="o29"]I do kind of miss the variety of great titles in the genre pre-FFVII (Super Mario RPG, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Eartbound, etc.). At the same time, though, Final Fantasy as a whole has really done a lot for the genre, and Final Fantasy VII is, in my opinion, no exception. I just hope that developers other than Square Enix can start putting out quality RPG's a little more often.Dencore

They do and they're more creative and innovative then ever before, it's just that they're only found on handhelds.

But how it did it...It is questionable. As someone already stated. FFVII Fanboys...Pretty much this is unquestionable the holy grail, god's gift, ultimate RPG. Kind of like how Fallout fanboys are now...Where...Well its good...BUT....Can never be as good as that. You can say they live in a world of nostalgia.

Acenso

In the defense of the Fallout fanboys, I think it could be argued that where jRPGs have mostly taken steps forward since FFVII, wRPGs have largely taken steps back since the days of Fallout.

[QUOTE="Acenso"]

But how it did it...It is questionable. As someone already stated. FFVII Fanboys...Pretty much this is unquestionable the holy grail, god's gift, ultimate RPG. Kind of like how Fallout fanboys are now...Where...Well its good...BUT....Can never be as good as that. You can say they live in a world of nostalgia.

Alaris83

In the defense of the Fallout fanboys, I think it could be argued that where jRPGs have mostly taken steps forward since FFVII, wRPGs have largely taken steps back since the days of Fallout.

Actually, I think western RPGs have siginificantly taken steps forward more so than Japanese RPGs over the years. Japanese RPGs have mostly stayed the same with Final Fantasy always leading the pack as the highest rated and sold games. All the other niche RPGs like the Tales series or Suikoden have stayed consisitant in the mediocre/above avg. state never really improving nor getting worse.

Western RPGs have been becoming better over the past years. I think the leap of improvement between JRPGs and WRPGs is significant with WRPGs constantly improving and getting better and better whereas JRPGs have mostly remained the same. A lot of the WRPGs have been getting higher reviews and selling better on the market....in the west of course.

I'm personally into JRPGs more than western ones, but that's only because of matter of taste. However, I still respectfully acknowledge that western RPGs are getting very good and they are great games as well. And I think they are even surpassing the best JRPGs in many ways.

Actually, I think western RPGs have siginificantly taken steps forward more so than Japanese RPGs over the years. Japanese RPGs have mostly stayed the same with Final Fantasy always leading the pack as the highest rated and sold games. All the other niche RPGs like the Tales series or Suikoden have stayed consisitant in the mediocre/above avg. state never really improving nor getting worse.

Western RPGs have been becoming better over the past years. I think the leap of improvement between JRPGs and WRPGs is significant with WRPGs constantly improving and getting better and better whereas JRPGs have mostly remained the same. A lot of the WRPGs have been getting higher reviews and selling better on the market....in the west of course.

I'm personally into JRPGs more than western ones, but that's only because of matter of taste. However, I still respectfully acknowledge that western RPGs are getting very good and they are great games as well. And I think they are even surpassing the best JRPGs in many ways.

 

ASK_Story

What are some genre advancing improvements that we've seen in wRPGs from the past few years?

[QUOTE="ASK_Story"]

Actually, I think western RPGs have siginificantly taken steps forward more so than Japanese RPGs over the years. Japanese RPGs have mostly stayed the same with Final Fantasy always leading the pack as the highest rated and sold games. All the other niche RPGs like the Tales series or Suikoden have stayed consisitant in the mediocre/above avg. state never really improving nor getting worse.

Western RPGs have been becoming better over the past years. I think the leap of improvement between JRPGs and WRPGs is significant with WRPGs constantly improving and getting better and better whereas JRPGs have mostly remained the same. A lot of the WRPGs have been getting higher reviews and selling better on the market....in the west of course.

I'm personally into JRPGs more than western ones, but that's only because of matter of taste. However, I still respectfully acknowledge that western RPGs are getting very good and they are great games as well. And I think they are even surpassing the best JRPGs in many ways.

 

Alaris83

What are some genre advancing improvements that we've seen in wRPGs from the past few years?

I'm just thinking of games like Knight of the Old Republic, Jade Empire, and the next-gen offerings like Oblivion and the upcoming Mass Effect. These RPGs are arguably just as good if not better than anything RPG Japanese developers come up with. In the past, anything other than Final Fantasy was a step back but these days, these titles I mentioned are contenders.

And let's not forget WoW which is the most played and popular RPG in the world, NOT Final Fantasy.

So that's what I mean. As a gamer, I personally play and enjoy JRPGs more than WRPGs, but I'm not biased or blind enough to acknowledge or show respect to talented developers who make great games just the same.

I'm just thinking of games like Knight of the Old Republic, Jade Empire, and the next-gen offerings like Oblivion and the upcoming Mass Effect. These RPGs are arguably just as good if not better than anything RPG Japanese developers come up with. In the past, anything other than Final Fantasy was a step back but these days, these titles I mentioned are contenders.

And let's not forget WoW which is the most played and popular RPG in the world, NOT Final Fantasy.

So that's what I mean. As a gamer, I personally play and enjoy JRPGs more than WRPGs, but I'm not biased or blind enough to acknowledge or show respect to talented developers who make great games just the same.

ASK_Story

 I'm not saying these newer wRPGs are bad games, I'm just saying that they aren't showing us anything we haven't seen done before, and in a some cases done better.  That said, I'm not an expert in jRPGs, but I don't think the same could be the same for recent games in that genre.

Ugh why oh why do people only assume you can only get JRPG's on consoles :roll:

The japanese see the consoles as a "secondary" system while handhelds are their "primary" JRPG's right now are innovating more so then ever before IMHO. The Japanese developers see consoles as shovelcrap right now *as Western developers see handhelds*

Anyway WRPG's have had the same crap as JRPG's have had, it's just that PC fanboys and console gamers *who have been recently introduced to this genre* say they topple over the JRPG.

Gothic III won the "biggest dissapointment award" on Gamespy

Oblivion is critizied as being more so of a "hack-and-slash" game then an WRPG.

KoToR II was a let down in manys eyes and criticized the combat system and the games "too easy" difficulty.

Deus Ex: Invisible War has been unanimously infavor as of being inferior to the original.

Fable was a HUGE dissapointment due to over-hype. 

There's also this claim of too many World of Warcraft clones.

WRPG's get their fair share of garbage and BS just as every other genre out there.

And as said before WRPG's are new to the gamer, they've just recently got out of the "niche" *thanks to a little console called "The Xbox" and a little company called "Bioware". I see it as the same craze that JRPG's had in the late 90's. It will eventually run out of steam sooner or later, and then people will notice the flaws of the genre.

Also ASK_Story what did you think of Raiden III *I just brought it so I'm wondering what you think of it*?

[QUOTE="Acenso"]

But how it did it...It is questionable. As someone already stated. FFVII Fanboys...Pretty much this is unquestionable the holy grail, god's gift, ultimate RPG. Kind of like how Fallout fanboys are now...Where...Well its good...BUT....Can never be as good as that. You can say they live in a world of nostalgia.

Alaris83

In the defense of the Fallout fanboys, I think it could be argued that where jRPGs have mostly taken steps forward since FFVII, wRPGs have largely taken steps back since the days of Fallout.

To be honest...That statement is far to generalized. How?  Maybe it is not that western RPGs are regressing...But the simple fact that they will not except anything else other then that golden moment. An example of this is easy...Fighters in Arcades. Its simple...You can not beat the Nostalgy behind that moment. So they refuse to accept anything as better. 

^^^^^Who's to say they aren't doing the same?

I'm not saying WRPG's are regressing, I'm just saying who's to say that the WRPG fans aren't streolizing themselves with thoughts of the Interplay/Black Isle days?

I'm not saying that console JRPG's are as quality as they were from the PSone era *far from it*, but I'm just stating an example.

I'll make this succinct:  It set a standard.  A standard, to which I beleive, judges all RPGs out there right now.

VII set the standard for PS1.  X set it for 2.  XIII will set it for 3.

Just my 2 cents 

mike7677

I need to argue that, cause FFX was pretty awful, and I have played pretty much every Final Fantasy game in existance and it was really quite bad for a number of reasons, mainly the fact that you could not skip cutscenes, some of which were really long was really annoying. Second, the orb map drove me nuts, I like the straight forward upgrade systems from the old FF games and the other thing that bothered me was how lame the acting was and the story itself was not that great. I actually believe that all of the FF games on the PS2 were crappy and cannot stand up to how good 7-9 & Tactics for the PS1 were.

I need to argue that, cause FFX was pretty awful, and I have played pretty much every Final Fantasy game in existance and it was really quite bad for a number of reasons, mainly the fact that you could not skip cutscenes, some of which were really long was really annoying. Second, the orb map drove me nuts, I like the straight forward upgrade systems from the old FF games and the other thing that bothered me was how lame the acting was and the story itself was not that great. I actually believe that all of the FF games on the PS2 were crappy and cannot stand up to how good 7-9 & Tactics for the PS1 were.

DSgamer64

I disagree X is my personal favorite, it had the best combat/level system of any Final Fantasy by a long shot and introduced "puzzles" to the series. Also I loved the story, but we're talking about gameplay here.

To be honest...That statement is far to generalized. How? Maybe it is not that western RPGs are regressing...But the simple fact that they will not except anything else other then that golden moment. An example of this is easy...Fighters in Arcades. Its simple...You can not beat the Nostalgy behind that moment. So they refuse to accept anything as better.

Acenso

Also ASK_Story what did you think of Raiden III *I just brought it so I'm wondering what you think of it*?

Dencore

I think it's a great SHMUP for hardcore Raiden fans. I enjoy it because I'm a fan.

But when you compare Raiden to other top vertical shooters like Raidant Silvergun or Ikaruga, of course Raiden can't compare. But it shouldn't be to much of a let down because Treasure are the best with these kinds of games and Raiden has always been a straight, traditional vertical SHMUP for a niche crowd.

But if you love Raiden and love SHMUPs than Raiden III is a great game. The only thing I didn't feel to right was the asking price because since it's a two year old game and a port, it should've been a budget game. Well, I guess that's okay since it's Raiden but it may have shunned away others who would be willing to try this game.

[QUOTE="ASK_Story"]

I guess my hypothetical theory is this: if there was never a Final Fantasy VII, would other developers be pushing the quality of their RPGs instead of churning out similar sequels year after year? Since there is no dominant franchise that overshadows everything else, maybe the market would have 10 Final Fantasy-like franchises that compete with each other,

So no matter how much good FFVII did for the industry, I think it also brought a long some negative side-effects to the RPG industry. There will always be that niche crowd who plays whatever RPG is out there, and like every niche, the developers will probably follow their same routine of sequels to provide for them. This post probably relates mostly to the western market because the Japanese market for RPGs has been strong....but it still applies the same since Dragon Quest is Japan's most popular title and the west really never had a DQ game until the last one.

MarcusAntonius

I'm not really sure that FF VII really had any negative impacts, other than allowing Square to continue to push the same ol' same ol', minus FF VIII of course. Other than VIII, Square really hadn't branched out much until FF XII.

As far as what FF VII did for the industry, there's a lot of myth and misunderstanding that comes up in the course of this discussion. FF VII DID NOT make RPGs mainstream. What it did was take a popular brand name, Final Fantasy, and handed the series over to the Sony platform giving the upstart Sony Playstation, a huge boost. FF the franchise, and not so much FF VII, helped sell more Sony Playstations, but for all of that, it did very little for the RPG genre.

There were other RPG franchises in existence before Final Fantasy and they will continue to thrive as they always have.

FFVII DID make RPG mainstream.

Yes Final Fantasy was a big name franchise before VII came out, but it still didn't sell strongly enough to be considered main stream in America. There is reason why so many Final Fantasy never crossed Pacific Ocean and remained in Japan before FFVII. After FFVII, all FF game managed to hit state side. I think that alone shows the difference. I've been RPG fan for all my life and so often I had to miss out so many games because it never reached state side. After FFVII I didn't have such problem. 

Much more RPG series started to hit state side AFTER Final Fantasy VII was released. Tales of _____ series, Star Ocean series, etc etc etc existed before FFVII but only after FFVII they started to reach out to Americans because FFVII allowed many Americans to be more accepting towards RPG genre than before.

[QUOTE="Acenso"]

To be honest...That statement is far to generalized. How? Maybe it is not that western RPGs are regressing...But the simple fact that they will not except anything else other then that golden moment. An example of this is easy...Fighters in Arcades. Its simple...You can not beat the Nostalgy behind that moment. So they refuse to accept anything as better.

Alaris83

Nostalgia, yes yes.  Of course, that's it.  The lack of depth in Oblivion and the linearity of Neverwinter Nights 2 was actually all just a figment of my imagination.

I can't comment too much on Oblivion since I haven't played it extensivly, but I do know that the game does very well on what it does best. But my point in this paragraph is not on the quality of the games itself, but I'm just counterpointing your view that Oblivion lacks depth when even the most popular JRPGs lack this depth as well.

For example, when you mention the lack of depth in Oblivion, the funny thing is Dragon Quest is really just the same, a dungeoun crawler and level grinder with a simple storyline and plot. Dragon Quest VIII was the first game in the series that really fleshed out a more solid storyline. It was also the first one that took localizing the game more seriously even adding voice-overs for the western market. But the other ones before DQVIII are all hardcore dungeoun crawlers with a storyline as shallow and simple as "get strong enough to kill the evil in the world" or "exploring a uncharted world." Also, the Pokemon games are hardcore dungeoun crawling at its heart, kind of like Dragon Quest is. And also, when you talk about linearity, I think FFX and Valkaryie Profile 2 is the most linear-driven RPGs you can play. These games are great games (I especially like Valkaryie Profile 2 more than FFX) but they are very linear and doesn't allow the players much freedom to explore.

So like I pointed out before there's always something negative or positive on both JRPGs and WRPGs. And like I mentioned before it's just a matter of taste on what caters best to what an individual RPG fan enjoys more.

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"][QUOTE="ASK_Story"]

I guess my hypothetical theory is this: if there was never a Final Fantasy VII, would other developers be pushing the quality of their RPGs instead of churning out similar sequels year after year? Since there is no dominant franchise that overshadows everything else, maybe the market would have 10 Final Fantasy-like franchises that compete with each other,

So no matter how much good FFVII did for the industry, I think it also brought a long some negative side-effects to the RPG industry. There will always be that niche crowd who plays whatever RPG is out there, and like every niche, the developers will probably follow their same routine of sequels to provide for them. This post probably relates mostly to the western market because the Japanese market for RPGs has been strong....but it still applies the same since Dragon Quest is Japan's most popular title and the west really never had a DQ game until the last one.

TriangleHard

I'm not really sure that FF VII really had any negative impacts, other than allowing Square to continue to push the same ol' same ol', minus FF VIII of course. Other than VIII, Square really hadn't branched out much until FF XII.

As far as what FF VII did for the industry, there's a lot of myth and misunderstanding that comes up in the course of this discussion. FF VII DID NOT make RPGs mainstream. What it did was take a popular brand name, Final Fantasy, and handed the series over to the Sony platform giving the upstart Sony Playstation, a huge boost. FF the franchise, and not so much FF VII, helped sell more Sony Playstations, but for all of that, it did very little for the RPG genre.

There were other RPG franchises in existence before Final Fantasy and they will continue to thrive as they always have.

FFVII DID make RPG mainstream.

Yes Final Fantasy was a big name franchise before VII came out, but it still didn't sell strongly enough to be considered main stream in America. There is reason why so many Final Fantasy never crossed Pacific Ocean and remained in Japan before FFVII. After FFVII, all FF game managed to hit state side. I think that alone shows the difference. I've been RPG fan for all my life and so often I had to miss out so many games because it never reached state side. After FFVII I didn't have such problem. 

Much more RPG series started to hit state side AFTER Final Fantasy VII was released. Tales of _____ series, Star Ocean series, etc etc etc existed before FFVII but only after FFVII they started to reach out to Americans because FFVII allowed many Americans to be more accepting towards RPG genre than before.

First off, look beyond Final Fantasy. There were just three installments here in the U.S. prior to FF VII, sure, but you leave out all of the other RPGs in the first two generations before the 32/64 bit age and that's not including RPGs that were on the PC platform.

"Much more" RPGs were released stateside well before FF VII. If Americans hadn't been accepting before RPGs came out, then I suppose we wouldn't have gotten the first three FF games, Pokemon, Chrono Trigger, Dragon Warrior I-IV, Ultima, Destiny of an Emperor, Secret of Evermore, Lufia I & II, Dungeons & Dragons, Phantasy Star I-III, Breath of Fire I & II, Earthbound, Might and Magic, Wizardry, Illusion of Gaia.........do I even need to go on?

You wrongly attribute RPGs going mainstream to the increased demographic and explosion of the video game industry that had begun in the mid 90s and took off from there on.

You've been an RPG fan all of your life? You must not be very old then. To say that FF VII made RPGs mainstream isn't a valid opinion, its not even debateable, its just a flat out ignorant statement.

I can't comment too much on Oblivion since I haven't played it extensivly, but I do know that the game does very well on what it does best. But my point in this paragraph is not on the quality of the games itself, but I'm just counterpointing your view that Oblivion lacks depth when even the most popular JRPGs lack this depth as well.

For example, when you mention the lack of depth in Oblivion, the funny thing is Dragon Quest is really just the same, a dungeoun crawler and level grinder with a simple storyline and plot. Dragon Quest VIII was the first game in the series that really fleshed out a more solid storyline. It was also the first one that took localizing the game more seriously even adding voice-overs for the western market. But the other ones before DQVIII are all hardcore dungeoun crawlers with a storyline as shallow and simple as "get strong enough to kill the evil in the world" or "exploring a uncharted world." Also, the Pokemon games are hardcore dungeoun crawling at its heart, kind of like Dragon Quest is. And also, when you talk about linearity, I think FFX and Valkaryie Profile 2 is the most linear-driven RPGs you can play. These games are great games (I especially like Valkaryie Profile 2 more than FFX) but they are very linear and doesn't allow the players much freedom to explore.

So like I pointed out before there's always something negative or positive on both JRPGs and WRPGs. And like I mentioned before it's just a matter of taste on what caters best to what an individual RPG fan enjoys more.

ASK_Story

Are we debating which genre of RPG has advanced the least?  Perhaps we can just say "neither jRPG nor wRPG genre have advanced much in the past 10 years" and be done with it. :P

[QUOTE="TriangleHard"][QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"][QUOTE="ASK_Story"]

I guess my hypothetical theory is this: if there was never a Final Fantasy VII, would other developers be pushing the quality of their RPGs instead of churning out similar sequels year after year? Since there is no dominant franchise that overshadows everything else, maybe the market would have 10 Final Fantasy-like franchises that compete with each other,

So no matter how much good FFVII did for the industry, I think it also brought a long some negative side-effects to the RPG industry. There will always be that niche crowd who plays whatever RPG is out there, and like every niche, the developers will probably follow their same routine of sequels to provide for them. This post probably relates mostly to the western market because the Japanese market for RPGs has been strong....but it still applies the same since Dragon Quest is Japan's most popular title and the west really never had a DQ game until the last one.

MarcusAntonius

I'm not really sure that FF VII really had any negative impacts, other than allowing Square to continue to push the same ol' same ol', minus FF VIII of course. Other than VIII, Square really hadn't branched out much until FF XII.

As far as what FF VII did for the industry, there's a lot of myth and misunderstanding that comes up in the course of this discussion. FF VII DID NOT make RPGs mainstream. What it did was take a popular brand name, Final Fantasy, and handed the series over to the Sony platform giving the upstart Sony Playstation, a huge boost. FF the franchise, and not so much FF VII, helped sell more Sony Playstations, but for all of that, it did very little for the RPG genre.

There were other RPG franchises in existence before Final Fantasy and they will continue to thrive as they always have.

FFVII DID make RPG mainstream.

Yes Final Fantasy was a big name franchise before VII came out, but it still didn't sell strongly enough to be considered main stream in America. There is reason why so many Final Fantasy never crossed Pacific Ocean and remained in Japan before FFVII. After FFVII, all FF game managed to hit state side. I think that alone shows the difference. I've been RPG fan for all my life and so often I had to miss out so many games because it never reached state side. After FFVII I didn't have such problem.

Much more RPG series started to hit state side AFTER Final Fantasy VII was released. Tales of _____ series, Star Ocean series, etc etc etc existed before FFVII but only after FFVII they started to reach out to Americans because FFVII allowed many Americans to be more accepting towards RPG genre than before.

First off, look beyond Final Fantasy. There were just three installments here in the U.S. prior to FF VII, sure, but you leave out all of the other RPGs in the first two generations before the 32/64 bit age and that's not including RPGs that were on the PC platform.

"Much more" RPGs were released stateside well before FF VII. If Americans hadn't been accepting before RPGs came out, then I suppose we wouldn't have gotten the first three FF games, Pokemon, Chrono Trigger, Dragon Warrior I-IV, Ultima, Destiny of an Emperor, Secret of Evermore, Lufia I & II, Dungeons & Dragons, Phantasy Star I-III, Breath of Fire I & II, Earthbound, Might and Magic, Wizardry, Illusion of Gaia.........do I even need to go on?

You wrongly attribute RPGs going mainstream to the increased demographic and explosion of the video game industry that had begun in the mid 90s and took off from there on.

You've been an RPG fan all of your life? You must not be very old then. To say that FF VII made RPGs mainstream isn't a valid opinion, its not even debateable, its just a flat out ignorant statement.

I won't disagree with you about there was many great RPGs before FFVII.

However, think about the ratio of RPG crossing to the states. The number of games are bound to be reduced due to high cost of production these days so of course there are less number of games today, however just about all RPGs are managing to cross to state-side now, while in the past so many great games didn't make to the state side.

SNES was void of Dragon Quest completely, Seiken Densetsu 3 couldn't make it to the state side, Star Ocean didn't make it to state side, etc etc etc. If RPG was main stream then all those games should've been able to hit state side. After FFVII, we barely miss any JRPGs. 

Also if you think about the sales, before FFVII the RPG sales were rather unimpressive on state side and after FFVII the sales of RPG just skyrocketed. RPG compared to other genre didn't sell that well while today, RPG genre has franchise that easily sells millions of copies. 

pre-FFVII and post-FFVII does have huge different in number in state side that includes $ sign in the front.  

No. It was a game many people loved. Just based off of that I will say it is not bad for the industry.

[QUOTE="TriangleHard"][QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"][QUOTE="ASK_Story"]

I guess my hypothetical theory is this: if there was never a Final Fantasy VII, would other developers be pushing the quality of their RPGs instead of churning out similar sequels year after year? Since there is no dominant franchise that overshadows everything else, maybe the market would have 10 Final Fantasy-like franchises that compete with each other,

So no matter how much good FFVII did for the industry, I think it also brought a long some negative side-effects to the RPG industry. There will always be that niche crowd who plays whatever RPG is out there, and like every niche, the developers will probably follow their same routine of sequels to provide for them. This post probably relates mostly to the western market because the Japanese market for RPGs has been strong....but it still applies the same since Dragon Quest is Japan's most popular title and the west really never had a DQ game until the last one.

MarcusAntonius

I'm not really sure that FF VII really had any negative impacts, other than allowing Square to continue to push the same ol' same ol', minus FF VIII of course. Other than VIII, Square really hadn't branched out much until FF XII.

As far as what FF VII did for the industry, there's a lot of myth and misunderstanding that comes up in the course of this discussion. FF VII DID NOT make RPGs mainstream. What it did was take a popular brand name, Final Fantasy, and handed the series over to the Sony platform giving the upstart Sony Playstation, a huge boost. FF the franchise, and not so much FF VII, helped sell more Sony Playstations, but for all of that, it did very little for the RPG genre.

There were other RPG franchises in existence before Final Fantasy and they will continue to thrive as they always have.

FFVII DID make RPG mainstream.

Yes Final Fantasy was a big name franchise before VII came out, but it still didn't sell strongly enough to be considered main stream in America. There is reason why so many Final Fantasy never crossed Pacific Ocean and remained in Japan before FFVII. After FFVII, all FF game managed to hit state side. I think that alone shows the difference. I've been RPG fan for all my life and so often I had to miss out so many games because it never reached state side. After FFVII I didn't have such problem.

Much more RPG series started to hit state side AFTER Final Fantasy VII was released. Tales of _____ series, Star Ocean series, etc etc etc existed before FFVII but only after FFVII they started to reach out to Americans because FFVII allowed many Americans to be more accepting towards RPG genre than before.

First off, look beyond Final Fantasy. There were just three installments here in the U.S. prior to FF VII, sure, but you leave out all of the other RPGs in the first two generations before the 32/64 bit age and that's not including RPGs that were on the PC platform.

"Much more" RPGs were released stateside well before FF VII. If Americans hadn't been accepting before RPGs came out, then I suppose we wouldn't have gotten the first three FF games, Pokemon, Chrono Trigger, Dragon Warrior I-IV, Ultima, Destiny of an Emperor, Secret of Evermore, Lufia I & II, Dungeons & Dragons, Phantasy Star I-III, Breath of Fire I & II, Earthbound, Might and Magic, Wizardry, Illusion of Gaia.........do I even need to go on?

You wrongly attribute RPGs going mainstream to the increased demographic and explosion of the video game industry that had begun in the mid 90s and took off from there on.

You've been an RPG fan all of your life? You must not be very old then. To say that FF VII made RPGs mainstream isn't a valid opinion, its not even debateable, its just a flat out ignorant statement.

This is a very interesting topic. I wouldn´t say mainstream but rather REDEFINE - TRANSITIONED the genre in terms of presentation, overall graphics and sound. As it was mentioned before, there were other great RPG before FFVII, Chronno Trigger, Secret of Mana and evermore to name a few, Phantasy star was also great, I played II and III on the genesis.

I myself experienced the transition between the 16 bit era and the 32 bit era with FFVII. I still have my original 3cd set of FFVII, and still amazes me.

IT WAS THE BEST FOR THE INDUSTRY AND A TOTAL BLESSING (at least for me)...... most of people were still playing SNES when FFVII became notice. I still remember back then 10 years ago, when you could see the intro of FFVII in any video game store. MOST PEOPLE SAID: WOW!!!!!! (Including myself). FFVII was the only reason for me to get a PS1 and then this truly awesome game and all the sequels (I didn´t get FF XI online).

FFVII REDEFINED the whole RPG genre. bringing more gamers to play RPG´S, not only on PS1 but in all other systems.

PROUD PS3 OWNER SINCE 19 MAY 2007. (AND RPG FAN BOY SINCE NES ERA).

PS3 ID: NREAL.

To me thats like blameing Half-life for the number of poor quality of FPS's. People weather they care to admit it on not loved FFVII for its story most of all, and most people that bash it are the same people that say "oh the godfathers overrated" basically just jerks trying to look like smart.

WoW which is the most played and popular RPG in the world, NOT Final Fantasy. ASK_Story

There are MMORPGs that sport larger fanbases and users then WoW worldwide. An example is Ragnarok Online that has an estimated userbase of 25 million worldwide currently.