What about people before Jesus

I've never really liked this debate, but I guess because it stems from my own disbelief.

I think when I considered myself a Christian, I believe that heaven had always existed, but was revealed through Christ. For heaven to have existed after Christ, in order for it to last for eternity in a linear direction of time, it has to proceed both back and forth in time. Everyone knows that an eternity means that there's no ending, but they also forget that it also means that there's no beginning as well.

This is a "coincidence", I wrote something up on this just earlier today. It's a good question, btw. :)

"Everyone in the Old Testament, this includes believers and non-believers, went to a place called 'Sheol'. In the New Testament we learn that this place is the equivalent to Hades (note, this is not the same as the Lake of Fire) and that it is divided into two realms. Luke 16:19-31 tells us that Lazarus, who was a believer, was in a realm of comfort called Paradise, while the rich man, who had rejected God, was in a realm of torment. Luke 19:26 says that there was "a great gulf fixed" between the two realms, to keep them separate from each other.

This is where it becomes just slightly more complex. When Jesus died, he is said to have gone to Hades (Ephesians 4:9). At the resurrection however, the believers in Hades, those in the realm of comfort, were moved to another location (2 Corinthians 12:2-4). Now the realm of comfort, called paradise, was separate from Hades, or Sheol.

Today when a believer dies, because of Jesus' sacrifice and our Salvation through him, we are directly in his presence (2 Corinthians 5:6-9). When an unbeliever dies however, he followers the Old Testament unbelievers into Hades. There they will wait until the final judgement (Revelation 20:13–15)."

Hope that explains it sufficiently. 

I've never really liked this debate, but I guess because it stems from my own disbelief.

I think when I considered myself a Christian, I believe that heaven had always existed, but was revealed through Christ. For heaven to have existed after Christ, in order for it to last for eternity in a linear direction of time, it has to proceed both back and forth in time. Everyone knows that an eternity means that there's no ending, but they also forget that it also means that there's no beginning as well.

Genetic_Code

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]

I've never really liked this debate, but I guess because it stems from my own disbelief.

I think when I considered myself a Christian, I believe that heaven had always existed, but was revealed through Christ. For heaven to have existed after Christ, in order for it to last for eternity in a linear direction of time, it has to proceed both back and forth in time. Everyone knows that an eternity means that there's no ending, but they also forget that it also means that there's no beginning as well.

Bourbons3

Only two human beings will, and ever have entered Heaven. Did you know that? :) 

It seems like another point that would point towards God being more cruel and petty than is humanly possible. He's created you at (for example) 200bc. But, because you die before he/his son does in year 0, you go to hell. It just seems to stem from how horrible God is. If you don't worship him, not only will you go to hell, but you'll go there by drowning in a worldwide flood. It's similar to people who live on a remote island. Its not their fault that they live in the middle of the nowhere. But, by the Bible's logic, they should burn in hell in the same way murderers should. This all then begs the question: if people who don't worship him annoy him so much, why doesn't he just create people as Christians? He's God, he can do anything, can't he?Bourbons3

I don't want to get caught up in a big debate about this, but:

1. People in the Old Testament who were believers didn't (and more correctly won't) go to Hell.

2. If God made us so that we could only choose to be Christians, he would be taking away our free will. In affect removing the very thing which he wanted us to have. 

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]It seems like another point that would point towards God being more cruel and petty than is humanly possible. He's created you at (for example) 200bc. But, because you die before he/his son does in year 0, you go to hell. It just seems to stem from how horrible God is. If you don't worship him, not only will you go to hell, but you'll go there by drowning in a worldwide flood. It's similar to people who live on a remote island. Its not their fault that they live in the middle of the nowhere. But, by the Bible's logic, they should burn in hell in the same way murderers should. This all then begs the question: if people who don't worship him annoy him so much, why doesn't he just create people as Christians? He's God, he can do anything, can't he?Lansdowne5

I don't want to get caught up in a big debate about this, but:

1. People in the Old Testament who were believers didn't (and more correctly won't) go to Hell.

2. If God made us so that we could only choose to be Christians, he would be taking away our free will. In affect removing the very thing which he wanted us to have. 

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]It seems like another point that would point towards God being more cruel and petty than is humanly possible. He's created you at (for example) 200bc. But, because you die before he/his son does in year 0, you go to hell. It just seems to stem from how horrible God is. If you don't worship him, not only will you go to hell, but you'll go there by drowning in a worldwide flood. It's similar to people who live on a remote island. Its not their fault that they live in the middle of the nowhere. But, by the Bible's logic, they should burn in hell in the same way murderers should. This all then begs the question: if people who don't worship him annoy him so much, why doesn't he just create people as Christians? He's God, he can do anything, can't he?Bourbons3

I don't want to get caught up in a big debate about this, but:

1. People in the Old Testament who were believers didn't (and more correctly won't) go to Hell.

2. If God made us so that we could only choose to be Christians, he would be taking away our free will. In affect removing the very thing which he wanted us to have. 

They 'did' have free will . . . . 

This is a "coincidence", I wrote something up on this just earlier today. It's a good question, btw. :)

"Everyone in the Old Testament, this includes believers and non-believers, went to a place called 'Sheol'. In the New Testament we learn that this place is the equivalent to Hades (note, this is not the same as the Lake of Fire) and that it is divided into two realms. Luke 16:19-31 tells us that Lazarus, who was a believer, was in a realm of comfort called Paradise, while the rich man, who had rejected God, was in a realm of torment. Luke 19:26 says that there was "a great gulf fixed" between the two realms, to keep them separate from each other.

This is where it becomes just slightly more complex. When Jesus died, he is said to have gone to Hades (Ephesians 4:9). At the resurrection however, the believers in Hades, those in the realm of comfort, were moved to another location (2 Corinthians 12:2-4). Now the realm of comfort, called paradise, was separate from Hades, or Sheol.

Today when a believer dies, because of Jesus' sacrifice and our Salvation through him, we are directly in his presence (2 Corinthians 5:6-9). When an unbeliever dies however, he followers the Old Testament unbelievers into Hades. There they will wait until the final judgement (Revelation 20:13–15)."

Hope that explains it sufficiently. 

Lansdowne5

I guess Christianism isn't so original. It just added the gulf.

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]It seems like another point that would point towards God being more cruel and petty than is humanly possible. He's created you at (for example) 200bc. But, because you die before he/his son does in year 0, you go to hell. It just seems to stem from how horrible God is. If you don't worship him, not only will you go to hell, but you'll go there by drowning in a worldwide flood. It's similar to people who live on a remote island. Its not their fault that they live in the middle of the nowhere. But, by the Bible's logic, they should burn in hell in the same way murderers should. This all then begs the question: if people who don't worship him annoy him so much, why doesn't he just create people as Christians? He's God, he can do anything, can't he?Lansdowne5

I don't want to get caught up in a big debate about this, but:

1. People in the Old Testament who were believers didn't (and more correctly won't) go to Hell.

2. If God made us so that we could only choose to be Christians, he would be taking away our free will. In affect removing the very thing which he wanted us to have. 

They 'did' have free will . . . . 

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="Bourbons3"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]It seems like another point that would point towards God being more cruel and petty than is humanly possible. He's created you at (for example) 200bc. But, because you die before he/his son does in year 0, you go to hell. It just seems to stem from how horrible God is. If you don't worship him, not only will you go to hell, but you'll go there by drowning in a worldwide flood. It's similar to people who live on a remote island. Its not their fault that they live in the middle of the nowhere. But, by the Bible's logic, they should burn in hell in the same way murderers should. This all then begs the question: if people who don't worship him annoy him so much, why doesn't he just create people as Christians? He's God, he can do anything, can't he?Bourbons3

I don't want to get caught up in a big debate about this, but:

1. People in the Old Testament who were believers didn't (and more correctly won't) go to Hell.

2. If God made us so that we could only choose to be Christians, he would be taking away our free will. In affect removing the very thing which he wanted us to have. 

They 'did' have free will . . . . 

Yes there is, so that you're not robots.

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="Bourbons3"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]It seems like another point that would point towards God being more cruel and petty than is humanly possible. He's created you at (for example) 200bc. But, because you die before he/his son does in year 0, you go to hell. It just seems to stem from how horrible God is. If you don't worship him, not only will you go to hell, but you'll go there by drowning in a worldwide flood. It's similar to people who live on a remote island. Its not their fault that they live in the middle of the nowhere. But, by the Bible's logic, they should burn in hell in the same way murderers should. This all then begs the question: if people who don't worship him annoy him so much, why doesn't he just create people as Christians? He's God, he can do anything, can't he?Lansdowne5

I don't want to get caught up in a big debate about this, but:

1. People in the Old Testament who were believers didn't (and more correctly won't) go to Hell.

2. If God made us so that we could only choose to be Christians, he would be taking away our free will. In affect removing the very thing which he wanted us to have. 

They 'did' have free will . . . . 

Yes there is, so that you're not robots.

Well its not much different. Many people consider themselves Christians purely out of fear. That's not a good reason to believe in God. But surely God realised this would happen? He write all of our lives out, after all. Having to believe in God for fear of being massacred isn't much better than being a robot.Bourbons3

This is a "coincidence", I wrote something up on this just earlier today. It's a good question, btw. :)

"Everyone in the Old Testament, this includes believers and non-believers, went to a place called 'Sheol'. In the New Testament we learn that this place is the equivalent to Hades (note, this is not the same as the Lake of Fire) and that it is divided into two realms. Luke 16:19-31 tells us that Lazarus, who was a believer, was in a realm of comfort called Paradise, while the rich man, who had rejected God, was in a realm of torment. Luke 19:26 says that there was "a great gulf fixed" between the two realms, to keep them separate from each other.

This is where it becomes just slightly more complex. When Jesus died, he is said to have gone to Hades (Ephesians 4:9). At the resurrection however, the believers in Hades, those in the realm of comfort, were moved to another location (2 Corinthians 12:2-4). Now the realm of comfort, called paradise, was separate from Hades, or Sheol.

Today when a believer dies, because of Jesus' sacrifice and our Salvation through him, we are directly in his presence (2 Corinthians 5:6-9). When an unbeliever dies however, he followers the Old Testament unbelievers into Hades. There they will wait until the final judgement (Revelation 20:13–15)."

Hope that explains it sufficiently.

Lansdowne5

So, are there any humans in hell yet? Or are they all awaiting for the final judgement?

Only two human beings will, and ever have entered Heaven.

Lansdowne5

Why the special treatment?

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="Bourbons3"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="Bourbons3"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]It seems like another point that would point towards God being more cruel and petty than is humanly possible. He's created you at (for example) 200bc. But, because you die before he/his son does in year 0, you go to hell. It just seems to stem from how horrible God is. If you don't worship him, not only will you go to hell, but you'll go there by drowning in a worldwide flood. It's similar to people who live on a remote island. Its not their fault that they live in the middle of the nowhere. But, by the Bible's logic, they should burn in hell in the same way murderers should. This all then begs the question: if people who don't worship him annoy him so much, why doesn't he just create people as Christians? He's God, he can do anything, can't he?Bourbons3

I don't want to get caught up in a big debate about this, but:

1. People in the Old Testament who were believers didn't (and more correctly won't) go to Hell.

2. If God made us so that we could only choose to be Christians, he would be taking away our free will. In affect removing the very thing which he wanted us to have. 

They 'did' have free will . . . . 

Yes there is, so that you're not robots.

Yes it is. Basically, every choice you make is because you have free will. If you didn't have free will you wouldn't be able to make any choices (believing in God is just one of millions). i.e choose when to watch TV, choose when to go to bed, etc, etc.

Also, God doesn't map out our lives before we're born. He knows what we'll do, but that doesn't mean he dictates it. :) 

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

This is a "coincidence", I wrote something up on this just earlier today. It's a good question, btw. :)

"Everyone in the Old Testament, this includes believers and non-believers, went to a place called 'Sheol'. In the New Testament we learn that this place is the equivalent to Hades (note, this is not the same as the Lake of Fire) and that it is divided into two realms. Luke 16:19-31 tells us that Lazarus, who was a believer, was in a realm of comfort called Paradise, while the rich man, who had rejected God, was in a realm of torment. Luke 19:26 says that there was "a great gulf fixed" between the two realms, to keep them separate from each other.

This is where it becomes just slightly more complex. When Jesus died, he is said to have gone to Hades (Ephesians 4:9). At the resurrection however, the believers in Hades, those in the realm of comfort, were moved to another location (2 Corinthians 12:2-4). Now the realm of comfort, called paradise, was separate from Hades, or Sheol.

Today when a believer dies, because of Jesus' sacrifice and our Salvation through him, we are directly in his presence (2 Corinthians 5:6-9). When an unbeliever dies however, he followers the Old Testament unbelievers into Hades. There they will wait until the final judgement (Revelation 20:13–15)."

Hope that explains it sufficiently.

7guns

So, are there any humans in hell yet? Or are they all awaiting for the final judgement?

Only two human beings will, and ever have entered Heaven.

Lansdowne5

Why the special treatment?

Blue - Nope. From my understanding of it no one has gone to hell yet. They await the Final Judgement where all people will be judged.

White - I'm not entirely sure. Both people had a very special purpose though. What you need to remember is that "Heaven", as it is now, is not the same as the "New Heaven" where all believers will go. :)