Hypothetically: What if the afterlife actually exists?
The question to you:
What would an ideal afterlife be? -OR- What do you think would be the most likely form the afterlife might take?
You may answer either or both the questions.
My take:
To me the afterlife cannot be something "supernatural." It would have to be a "place" that is literally extant within the known universe (or at least, within the confines of the surrounding existence, it could be multiple universes). It would be a place where the "spirits" (or at least, a contiguous grouping of energy) of our deceased selves entered and never return from.
The best example I can think of is the "underworld" from ancient traditions (specifically Mesopotamian, Greek and Norse). A place where your spirit ends up, and longs for material existence again. All you are is a "shade" of your former self and pine to know what it would feel like to hold your loved ones again, or eat food, or party with friends. A place of neither grand reward for faith, nor place of punishment for sin. Merely a diminutive existence that persists for an indefinite amount of time (neither eternal nor finite, you can never know for sure) and leaves the shade feeling lost, perplexed and empty (a common depiction of shades in literature such as The Odyssey or The Aeneid).
Something that brought up this idea for a thread was while reading about the underworld in the ancient Mesopotamian tradition, I recalled a couple passages from Ecclesiastes that bore a striking resemblance to one from a particular tablet in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
~~~
Ecc 3:18-21
I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"
Ecc 8:15
So I commend the enjoyment of life, because nothing is better for a man under the sun than to eat and drink and be glad. Then joy will accompany him in his work all the days of the life God has given him under the sun.
Sippar Tablet III 1-13
'O Gilgamesh, where are you wandering?
'The life that you seek your will never find:
when the gods created mankind,
death they dispensed to mankind,
life they keep for themselves.
'But you, Gilgamesh let you belly be full,
enjoy yourself always by day and by night!
Make merry each day,
dance and play day and night!
'Let your clothes be clean,
let you head be washed may you bathe in water!
Gaze on the child who holds your hand,
let your wife enjoy your repeated embrace!
~~~
What I essentially drew from both sources, was that the focus of one's life should be on the present, and enjoying what either the gods or God have given you, either lacking or plentiful; because in the end you know not what is to come afterwards ("striving for wind is futile") and it is better just to enjoy what is right in front of you, right now. Completely the opposite of the "spiritual" goal for the faithful being on the favourable afterlife in Heaven with God; not on the here and now.
This is what made me question both the inclusion of Ecclesiastes in the Old Testament, and whether or not the Hebrew sentiment for writing this text was inspired by a Mesopotamian Semitic source (Akkad/Babylonia in particular). From what I've been reading, there was so much cultural mixing in that area, even from the beginning of the civilization of the Sumer, that any idea would be impossible to trace to an original source.
Just for perspectives sake. At one point in the Middle East, there were the Babylonians, Assyrians, Elamites, Hittites, Zoroastrians (Persians), Hebrews and several nomadic clans from the northeastern steppes (not to mention invaders coming from further East or West)... all fighting for dominance in the region, and many groups either using their belief system as a means of dominance or integrating it into the existing society, along with the original cultural standards (many invaders, Alexander included; he rebuilt the temple of Marduk in Babylon, put resources into restoring what others had destroyed).
This begs the question that has been egging me for a couple weeks now... how can the Bible, or any religious text of the area or in general, be an inspired or direct Word from a God/god? It could be that all these gods are actually extant and are all infighting amongst themselves for followers, or perhaps it is all the same God manifesting itself in different ways... or there may be no gods at all and this is merely humanity's way of explaining the unknown. I don't know, Ecclesiastes tells me its futile to try, and Gilgamesh tells me to just eat, drink beer, be happy and let my partner enjoy my "embraces" all day every day.
My ideal afterlife:
I'd like "heaven" to be a calm, quiet, and timeless realm in which one could do almost anything. And I mean everything; including gaining all the knowledge of the universe and doing anything else that is absolutely impossible in this life. However, one must obtain something by oneself; without any help whatsoever. That might sound unappealing to some, though the sense of independance gained from doing so would ultimately make one's existance feel meaningful. Also, in this afterlife there would be no discrimination of any kind towards anyone, no malice of any kind and no wars of any kind. As for physical traits of this realm, I would like it to be very mountainous with an endless number of areas for hiking and rock climbing.
Yeah, I know that sounds completely unrealistic. But this is heaven we're talking about. :P
As for the underworld: It would be a realm akin to a correctional facility. Wicked souls would undergo a spiritual cleansing, and the dwellers would be made to see all the wrongs they have done in the past life. After all of that, everyone there would go to heaven.
Hopefully you'll find that interesting; I didn't really think this through. :P
72 virgins./thread.
:P
Gambler_3
And here I thought people with experience would be better than virgins. Guess I was wrong. :P
I've always kind of pictured the ideal afterlife as something like a lucid dream, only you don't wake up - you can do whatever you'd like to do, no restrictions. I imagine the ideal afterlife (if we're talking like a you-live-there-forever-get-comfy type afterlife) would also have its residents have an imperfect memory, so that you could not get into the situation where you've done everything and now find everything boring.
Is it okay if I speak of my nonsensical beliefs rather than speak in hypotheticals? :P
For whatever reason, many people have the idea that in Christianity the individual spends eternity in heaven immediately after death. If this is all there is, I find this to be an idea heavily influenced by Greek philosophy, most notably Platonic dualism and Gnostic Christianity.
As far as what I personally believe and am honestly quite excited about, when we die our spirit goes to heaven but this is only for a temporary time. When Christ returns those who are in Christ will be raised from the dead thus reconnected the human spirit with the newly recreated body. Rather than entering into a pure spiritual state of existence, we will receive physical bodies that will exist forever (not that we will be eternal beings sustaining ourselves through our own power, but Christ himself will give us true life through him).Â
While we live in these glorified and resurrected bodies, Christ will recreate the heavens and the earth and give us dominion over the earth. Essentially, we will live a Garden of Eden-like existence but with a lot more people. Life at that point in time will be how it is supposed to be, a life free from sin and bondage as we joyfully love God and love people without interference.
A lot of what I stated is most notably at the end of Revelation and 1 Corinthians 15 but spoken of throughout Scripture.
And for your reference to Ecclesiastes, I felt I should show the conclusion to the book as it's extremely easy to misinterpret the text without understanding the main point. Ecc. 12:13 states, "Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man."
Â
If there is an afterlife, I think that there would be two realms that souls would be sent to. The hellish realm is like the first level of Dante's Inferno (Limbo). There will be many mountains and canyons and people will be held in a prison-like environment. Little to no physical torture would be involved; the torment would be an ongoing feeling of regret or remorse for whatever bad things you did in life. I think that people would be let out of it eventually; which is similar to how a prison inmate is let out if he/she serves the time that his/her crimed earned. I think that the heavenly realm would be a place where you would live with whatever deity/deities exist. Things would not be perfect, but you would be happy for the most part.
If for some reason I ever stand before the throne of some deity/deities and I'm asked why I should be let into heaven, I would just be honest. I have nothing of value to present to a deity because he/she would see me like a human sees an ant. I would tell the truth-- that I tried to search for a true religion, but couldn't find answers. If that's not enough to get me in, then so be it. I would feel better about being honest rather than selfishly claiming that I deserve to go to heaven because I did some good things in life.
I'm not really sure that it's even possible to conceive of an ideal afterlife. We have all of these desires for food, sex, drink and the society of others but they only really serve as heuristics to motivate us towards the basic behaviours that allow us to survive and propegate as a species. They are hastily implemented impulses and as such they don't point us towards highly specific objects that directly lead to evolutionary success, rather they lead us in general behavioural directions that merely tend to lead to evolutionary success. I don't think that there is any existing object that perfectly corresponds to and truly satisfies these desires. There are only fuzzily imagined dreams.
As for how an afterlife might be plausibly realized, I can only conceive of some matrixy scenario where our brains are posthumously scanned and uploaded to a computer which accurately carries out its activity. That or something involving GabuEx's hypothetical fax machine.
It's great that you sat down and had a read of Ecclesiastes btw Foxhound. It seems like it's really interested you.
The best way to explain the divergent and inconsistent religions that developed in the middle east is to simply conclude that none of them were inspired by an actual God or deity. These were all people expressing their tendencies to perceive teleology in their day to day lives and to anthromorphize in a similar way. The God concepts that they came up with are yet more of the "fuzzily imagined dreams" that I talked about in my previous post.
If we were to presume theism though I suppose the best way to handle this problem would be to posit the existence of competing gods that reveal themselves in contradictory ways to drive their worshippers to reject each others dogma. They would have to all be just as jealous as Yahweh.
As for how an afterlife might be plausibly realized, I can only conceive of some matrixy scenario where our brains are posthumously scanned and uploaded to a computer which accurately carries out its activity. That or something involving GabuEx's hypothetical fax machine.
domatron23
Well, you could always get into some trippy stoner philosophizing on that, such as - what if our bodies are simply three-dimensional cross-sections of a four-dimensional existence, and what if our "soul" is in fact the rest of that existence, and what if when we die we simply lose the artificial illusory constraint that allows us to only perceive that part of existence?
To answer your latter question, Foxhound:
People can still live on in the memories and actions of others. Only some rare individuals inspire more than the few generations and small numbers for a vicarious life after death. For most of us, a few generations will be as far as we're remembered. Although, now computers and video work together perhaps further generations will be able to reflect on the Youtube videos of their great-great-great grandparents.
What would be ideal for me is a comfy de-brief followed by a Q and A session. Then a break, followed by re-encarnation into something pleasantly surprising.
As far as what I personally believe and am honestly quite excited about, when we die our spirit goes to heaven but this is only for a temporary time. When Christ returns those who are in Christ will be raised from the dead thus reconnected the human spirit with the newly recreated body. Rather than entering into a pure spiritual state of existence, we will receive physical bodies that will exist forever (not that we will be eternal beings sustaining ourselves through our own power, but Christ himself will give us true life through him).
While we live in these glorified and resurrected bodies, Christ will recreate the heavens and the earth and give us dominion over the earth. Essentially, we will live a Garden of Eden-like existence but with a lot more people. Life at that point in time will be how it is supposed to be, a life free from sin and bondage as we joyfully love God and love people without interference.
mindstorm
That sounds like a nightmare for me. The thought of endless separation from those you'd bonded with (how would you feel not being able to communicate with Domatron?), having to (once again, assumedly) bow down in subservience endlessly in thanks, free of challenge, interference and need. Aside from the will to worship God further, what other desire would there be to live? Surely, everyone would be in agreement, so there would be no need for evangelism. Would this Eden-like existence have snakes? Would the world have to be bigger, what with all the people thoughout history who have lived to your standards of Christianity or better?
That sounds like a nightmare for me. The thought of endless separation from those you'd bonded with (how would you feel not being able to communicate with Domatron?), having to (once again, assumedly) bow down in subservience endlessly in thanks, free of challenge, interference and need. Aside from the will to worship God further, what other desire would there be to live? Surely, everyone would be in agreement, so there would be no need for evangelism. Would this Eden-like existence have snakes? Would the world have to be bigger, what with all the people thoughout history who have lived to your standards of Christianity or better?
Â
RationalAtheist
To be honest, I don't really care about a lot of it. I mostly just wish to see my Jesus. Heck, the thought of it makes my eyes tear up. Being free from sin and living a perfect life is merely icing on the cake.
And yes, that would mean a lot of people I know and love will not be there. Will my dad be there? I'm not sure. Will I be capable of mourning over those who are not there? I don't know. Will I be able to spend eternity with the person I love most, heck yes (that person being Jesus). A life of obedience upon this earth is worth but a moment of that. I cannot even imagine being in the presense of God for eterinity.
What makes heaven to be heavenly is the fact God is there, everything else is of less value.Â
To be honest, I don't really care about a lot of it. I mostly just wish to see my Jesus. Heck, the thought of it makes my eyes tear up. Being free from sin and living a perfect life is merely icing on the cake.And yes, that would mean a lot of people I know and love will not be there. Will my dad be there? I'm not sure. Will I be capable of mourning over those who are not there? I don't know. Will I be able to spend eternity with the person I love most, heck yes (that person being Jesus). A life of obedience upon this earth is worth but a moment of that. I cannot even imagine being in the presense of God for eterinity.
What makes heaven to be heavenly is the fact God is there, everything else is of less value.mindstorm
That seems kind of... selfish, no? Â You're basically saying, "I don't ultimately care about anyone else; as long as I get to be with God in heaven that's all that matters in the end." Â I don't see how heaven could be heaven if there are those who did not and will never make it, and I've always been confused by those who don't feel the same way.
To be honest, I don't really care about a lot of it. I mostly just wish to see my Jesus. Heck, the thought of it makes my eyes tear up. Being free from sin and living a perfect life is merely icing on the cake.
And yes, that would mean a lot of people I know and love will not be there. Will my dad be there? I'm not sure. Will I be capable of mourning over those who are not there? I don't know. Will I be able to spend eternity with the person I love most, heck yes (that person being Jesus). A life of obedience upon this earth is worth but a moment of that. I cannot even imagine being in the presense of God for eterinity.
What makes heaven to be heavenly is the fact God is there, everything else is of less value.Â
mindstorm
Hmm, it's a little bit creepy to think of what kind of person you'd be if it weren't for God. Just saying.
That seems kind of... selfish, no? You're basically saying, "I don't ultimately care about anyone else; as long as I get to be with God in heaven that's all that matters in the end." I don't see how heaven could be heaven if there are those who did not and will never make it, and I've always been confused by those who don't feel the same way.GabuEx
Indeed. That kind of position seems like one contrary to the ideas professed by Jesus. It wouldn't be "heaven" if you can't be with the ones you love. The whole idea of Heaven to me seems like you should strive to save everyone before yourself.
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]That sounds like a nightmare for me. The thought of endless separation from those you'd bonded with (how would you feel not being able to communicate with Domatron?), having to (once again, assumedly) bow down in subservience endlessly in thanks, free of challenge, interference and need. Aside from the will to worship God further, what other desire would there be to live? Surely, everyone would be in agreement, so there would be no need for evangelism. Would this Eden-like existence have snakes? Would the world have to be bigger, what with all the people thoughout history who have lived to your standards of Christianity or better?
Â
mindstorm
To be honest, I don't really care about a lot of it. I mostly just wish to see my Jesus. Heck, the thought of it makes my eyes tear up. Being free from sin and living a perfect life is merely icing on the cake.
And yes, that would mean a lot of people I know and love will not be there. Will my dad be there? I'm not sure. Will I be capable of mourning over those who are not there? I don't know. Will I be able to spend eternity with the person I love most, heck yes (that person being Jesus). A life of obedience upon this earth is worth but a moment of that. I cannot even imagine being in the presense of God for eterinity.
What makes heaven to be heavenly is the fact God is there, everything else is of less value.Â
Wow I have so much to say here but I'll get modded for it so I wont but seriously that is just pathetic!!To be honest, I don't really care about a lot of it. I mostly just wish to see my Jesus. Heck, the thought of it makes my eyes tear up. Being free from sin and living a perfect life is merely icing on the cake.
And yes, that would mean a lot of people I know and love will not be there. Will my dad be there? I'm not sure. Will I be capable of mourning over those who are not there? I don't know. Will I be able to spend eternity with the person I love most, heck yes (that person being Jesus). A life of obedience upon this earth is worth but a moment of that. I cannot even imagine being in the presense of God for eterinity.
What makes heaven to be heavenly is the fact God is there, everything else is of less value.
mindstorm
I may as well too...
Are you doubting the ability to feel compassion in the afterlife? Isn't that what Christianity is all about though? (Or is it really conversion - I get confused!) Are you really looking forward to your senses being dulled for ever and ever?
Isn't your God here now for you? Wouldn't it be similar as being in God's presence here now to being in heaven on Earth once again? ( - Perhaps more verdant and larger Earth, and without all those who've sinned in a Christian way - more than you have or will.)
Don't you think, in time (of which you'd have vast, endless, amounts of), you'd get over your giddiness about being in your God's presence and get used to the situation? Would you think you'd ever even be able to really exchange ideas with your God?
Wouldn't you have any injustice, separation or morality issues that you think your God would be able to explain more fully to you?
That seems kind of... selfish, no? Â You're basically saying, "I don't ultimately care about anyone else; as long as I get to be with God in heaven that's all that matters in the end." Â I don't see how heaven could be heaven if there are those who did not and will never make it, and I've always been confused by those who don't feel the same way.
GabuEx
If I were selfish about it do you think I'd be so adamant about Evangelism as I am? I merely wanted to point out what I look forward to about heaven. I mourn those who will not know the Father's grace and do everything in my power to lead those I meet to Christ. I mean heck, I don't talk about Jesus all the time in an Atheism Union for kicks and giggles. :P
It is my goal to have the mentality of Paul in Romans 9:3, "For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers." Though he was specifically talking about the Jews, I certainly do try to keep to this mentality with everyone. Essentially, I seek to make it my desire to go to hell for you. As Paul said, this doesn't seem to be possible but he'd give up God for the sake of others finding God. This is my desire. I not only wish to make it my desire to die for someone but to go to hell for someone.
Though I love God, I also love others enough to do everything in my power for them to gain a love for God as well.
Hmm, it's a little bit creepy to think of what kind of person you'd be if it weren't for God. Just saying.
domatron23
Well based upon how I lived during my earlier life, I'd be self-righteous, arrogant, lustful, and prideful while still keeping with my social awkwardness. I tend to be a very obsessive person. Before I obsessed myself over Christ, I obsessed myself over a girl. Before the girl, self-righteous morality and my own apperance before others.
There is a lot more I'd like to add and clarify but I need to go to work. Be back later. :(
Isn't your God here now for you? RationalAtheist
That's something else I don't get. If God is here on Earth, why is it so important to get to Heaven to be with him, when he is only a prayer away? It also doesn't make sense to so highly desire to get to Heaven, especially when other people who you love here aren't going to end up there, and you don't care about it.
If I were selfish about it do you think I'd be so adamant about Evangelism as I am? I merely wanted to point out what I look forward to about heaven. I mourn those who will not know the Father's grace and do everything in my power to lead those I meet to Christ. I mean heck, I don't talk about Jesus all the time in an Atheism Union for kicks and giggles. :P
It is my goal to have the mentality of Paul in Romans 9:3, "For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers." Though he was specifically talking about the Jews, I certainly do try to keep to this mentality with everyone. Essentially, I seek to make it my desire to go to hell for you. As Paul said, this doesn't seem to be possible but he'd give up God for the sake of others finding God. This is my desire. I not only wish to make it my desire to die for someone but to go to hell for someone.
Though I love God, I also love others enough to do everything in my power for them to gain a love for God as well.
mindstorm
Well, all of that is well and good, and I'm sure that you're not lying in your earnest desire to bring others to Christ; however, not only did you say that you weren't sure if you would see your father in heaven, but you also indicated that what you really want is to be in the presence of God.  It seems to me that if you truly cared about someone, you wouldn't stop caring when you get yours in heaven.
I mean no offense, but this really kind of sounds like the person in James who tells his brother, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed" (James 2:16) but who does not in the end do everything he can to ensure this person is cared for. Â If I truly loved my brother, how could I ever find bliss in a heaven in which I have the eternal knowledge that he will suffer forever? Â Love "always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres," and "never fails" (1 Corinthians 13:7-8 ), yet you seem to be saying that your love for every person who does not make it to heaven will not protect, will not trust, will not hope, will not persevere, and will fail when you reach heaven.
I suppose the fundamental question for me is this: what good is heaven, if only the most selfish in the world can find peace there? Â If it is filled only with those whose sole concern in heaven is their own experience, why would I ever want to go there in the first place?
You know when I had got severely depressed, I did the same thing and started living my life with the sole purpose of "getting" to heaven, I was having difficulty in handling life the way it was.
But when I actually made my aim to just live for heaven, all the things being discussed in this thread started to come to my attention. Suddenly heaven just didnt make any sense, I think that was really the moment I started to get really uncomfortable with my beliefs and really lost faith in god's ability to give you whatever the hell you want(just the beginning of losing complete belief in him).
If I were selfish about it do you think I'd be so adamant about Evangelism as I am? I merely wanted to point out what I look forward to about heaven. I mourn those who will not know the Father's grace and do everything in my power to lead those I meet to Christ. I mean heck, I don't talk about Jesus all the time in an Atheism Union for kicks and giggles. :P
mindstorm
I see evangelism as a highly selfish act. Your reasoning in trying to lead people to Jesus seems to be based on your own selfish desire to enforce your beliefs on others, as if most haven't already rejected them - for good reasons. I would have thought an atheism union would be the worst place to try and convert people and I don't seriously believe you are telling the truth about why you post here.
It is my goal to have the mentality of Paul in Romans 9:3, "For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers." Though he was specifically talking about the Jews, I certainly do try to keep to this mentality with everyone. Essentially, I seek to make it my desire to go to hell for you. As Paul said, this doesn't seem to be possible but he'd give up God for the sake of others finding God. This is my desire. I not only wish to make it my desire to die for someone but to go to hell for someone.
Though I love God, I also love others enough to do everything in my power for them to gain a love for God as well.
mindstorm
You now desire to die and go to hell for "someone"? This does not make sense at all to me! I thought you wanted to be eternally numb in Heaven on Earth previously. Is this a change of tack, or a new way of saying the same thing differently? Why would you now want to spend eternity in hell while someone else got heaven? They might be annoyed they'd be separated from all their mates! Wouldn't you be too, after a while? I guess it doesn't matter since its impossible for this to happen, so you're seemingly safe in your kind but futile non-sensical offer.
[QUOTE="domatron23"]Hmm, it's a little bit creepy to think of what kind of person you'd be if it weren't for God. Just saying.
mindstorm
Well based upon how I lived during my earlier life, I'd be self-righteous, arrogant, lustful, and prideful while still keeping with my social awkwardness. I tend to be a very obsessive person. Before I obsessed myself over Christ, I obsessed myself over a girl. Before the girl, self-righteous morality and my own apperance before others.
There is a lot more I'd like to add and clarify but I need to go to work. Be back later. :(
We all have those qualities; obsessiveness is instinctive. But do you think obsessiveness over any one thing is that good ? It can lead to distortions and inappropriate actions. What would you do for relaxation and recreation in heaven, for example? (Remember; those interests would have to be inifinately interesting...)
If it is filled only with those whose sole concern in heaven is their own experience, why would I ever want to go there in the first place?GabuEx
I'm definitely with you on that one. Which leads me to believe the afterlife (if it is to exist) is less about reward and punishment and more about pining for physical existence again, a complete loss of everything that made this life so amazing.
An ideal afterlife is simply another dimension where everyone throughout history exists at around the peek of their intellectual capacity. You can talk to anyone and know their opinions on certain issues and even debate them if you desire so. I've always wanted to ask Ayn Rand what her opinion would be on such and such as well as debate her on certain issues, but I don't have that ability in this universe, so I've always had this desire of this afterlife where she exists in it and I can simply ask for her opinion. One problem with Christianity's version of heaven is that not everyone will be there. Think of all the family members and the interesting people that will not be there. That would not do. The afterlife doesn't have to be bliss or punishment. It's what you make of it, sort of like this Earth, only fair. It would be there for an eternity.
The most likely afterlife is something like noneternal nonspiritual reincarnation. It's problematic though since matter simply does not recycle itself and restores a consciousness that existed beforehand. This is why people who believe in reincarnation give the excuse that memories aren't retained from life to life.
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