God seems like a bully.

You know, it has always perplexed me as to why so many humans think that God is a just creature. Many religious people seem to think that his set of rules and morals are inherently "good", simply because he's God. They even think that he can piss all over us, and it would make it okay, once again because he's God (the creator of everything). However, I completely disagree. God may tell us his definition of what is right and wrong, but I think what God has to say is just, like, his opinion, man. 

So, it got me thinking. If things like homosexuality and murder are considered a sin. Why does God allow for his creations to be born as homosexuals or mentally ill serial killers? And completely out of their own will, I might add. Really, It seems a lot like a form of mental torture. You know you're gay or lust for blood, but you can't actually commit the acts because you might have to face the wrath of God. To me it seems like God has these people completely cornered, so he's basically raping them. 

If such a perfect entity can create something so primitive, it has purposely done so. This universe is a cold and barbaric place. Conflict is the norm, and needless to say, you all know what kind of things go down between the organisms on this planet. To make matters even worse, our God apparently does not intervene at all. The way I see it is that we are nothing more than his test subjects. There's a big reinforced glass in between us and God, but only God can see through the glass. We are put through all sorts of horrible tests. Every now and then someone may luck out, but how many don't? How many face the prospect of imminent doom? I would say too many. And what does God do? He just watches. He kind of just set up a gladiator match and he's having himself a good time. 

So why do so many worship this creature? I'll tell you why. It's not completely out of respect, it's out of fear. If God is real, and what the bible says is true. He has the power to put us through an eternity of hell - or worse. Why defy something with the power to do so? It's better to believe that God is a lovely little thing that can do no wrong, than it is to think otherwise of God. Even if it means to completely disregard the fallacies. Having read the Bible and Qur'an, as well as experienced this world, I can't say I am too motivated to worship a god as depicted by either religion.

So, what's your reason for not wanting to worship this dude?  

What you have described definitely sounds like a bully. I do not worship such a creature for about the same reasons that you have put forth.Android339

It does seem that the LDS view is one of God's anger being a form of "the truth of God's justice", which is part of eternal law, so its all ok then.

(I didn't make this up - it's from here)

In the context of the article, the author is writing concerning God's anger in relation to the Israelites. I would not go as far as him to say that God was not angry at all, because He was, but His anger was not based on nothing. The Israelites were very close to God, and therefore, more accountable. And really, within the context of the article, there is nothing strange enough about it to the extent that you had to clarify that you were not making it up. Android339

I believe there is strageness within the published LDS view! I feel it's always better to try and clarify things as well. For example, I was trying to clarify the Mormon position on God's vengeful acts, in response to your post, where you made no attempts at justifying those acts (as you are now), or stating that you believed something different.

That article extended beyond the Israelites too. The expression of God's anger in vengeful acts is hard for us atheists to swallow, because it is hard for theists to explain - even to themselves, judging by that article.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I believe there is strageness within the published LDS view! I feel it's always better to try and clarify things as well. For example, I was trying to clarify the Mormon position on God's vengeful acts, in response to your post, where you made no attempts at justifying those acts (as you are now), or stating that you believed something different.

Android339

Uhh... what? I didn't know that it was my duty to explain every bit of my faith every time I wrote in a thread. I made no attempts because I didn't want to. It's as simple as that. The only reason I'm doing so now is because I'm in response to your post. Also, before we get into trouble with "official" views and whatnot - the Ensign, while a Church publication, is not published doctrine.

I'm doing my job then. I wondered why you didn't want to/didn't post your own views, so thought I'd include something "official" from the Ensign, a resource published on the internet by the LDS church.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

That article extended beyond the Israelites too. The expression of God's anger in vengeful acts is hard for us atheists to swallow, because it is hard for theists to explain - even to themselves, judging by that article.

Android339

It may have, but I was referring to your usage of the phrase "the truth of God's justice", and where that was located, it was located in a section dealing with God's anger in relation to the Israelites. And from what I read in that article, they did explain it. It's not something they're hiding from.

From what I read, that was the explanation. Those words were used as a justification for vengeful acts of destruction. Rather than provide a reasoned explanation, they unconditionally support the violence as a justified consequence of going against God's wrath. To me, that sounds exactly as vengeful of an explanation.

I think that God would want us to be happy and to live for ourselves, not for his sake. Why would he create this universe for us if he didn't want us to enjoy it? Genetic_Code

Who are you to say what God is like? For all we know, he really could be evil and cruel.

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"] I think that God would want us to be happy and to live for ourselves, not for his sake. Why would he create this universe for us if he didn't want us to enjoy it? ghoklebutter

Who are you to say what God is like? For all we know, he really could be evil and cruel.

God deserves no license to be called God if he is not good.

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"] I think that God would want us to be happy and to live for ourselves, not for his sake. Why would he create this universe for us if he didn't want us to enjoy it? Genetic_Code

Who are you to say what God is like? For all we know, he really could be evil and cruel.

God deserves no license to be called God if he is not good.

This is assuming God is an actual being jealous of other actual beings and not a personification of the human experience that has been perverted by egotistical men seeking their own power.foxhound_fox

I hate to say it, but assumming that God exists, it's rather futile to talk about how horrible he is, since we don't stand a chance against him. ghoklebutter

Good people from all religions seem to suffer horrible things in life and many atheists seem to be having a blast, basically there is no connection here, it is abundantly clear that this god does not punish you in this life for saying bad things to him. Ok first hurdle clear that this life wont be effected whatever we say.

Now looking at this god's complete lack of control on this world, it seems to me that he is almost certainly NOT omnipotent and simply pretends that he is. Seems like we shouldnt be as much afraid of this god as you may think, maybe humans are actually capable of defeating this god come the judgement day who knows.

If this god is indeed omnipotent then you have to realise one thing, he makes people who believe in him and love him suffer absolutely unthinkably horrible things. You can believe in whatever god you want and you wont be immune from suffering the worst things in life, there's ample evidence for this. Now the point is if this god despite having all powers treats his own followers and haters so horribly indiscriminately almost like randomly, why do you think you are on some safer side by not being on the bad side of this god?

My reasons for not worshiping God are more or less in line with what you said. If this existing world is the creation of a god, the last thing I would do is worship him. Every day people are murdered, mutilated, raped, and beaten. Millions of people are starving, homeless, and don't even have clean water to drink. If god is so great and magnificent, the least he could do is to make sure that every child on the face of the earth is properly nourished, has shelter and has clean water. Free will be damned. Surely an omnimax entity can get around such a hindrance (and even if he couldn't, how great is free will really if it means preventing god from ending all the suffering in the world just so people could rape and murder?). I just don't see any compelling excuse for an omnimax entity. 

As the great philosopher Ben Parker said in Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility. God is all powerful; at the end of the day he's responsible for all that goes on in the world. The buck stops with him. 

I guess people aren't reading their Bibles enough or at all. There are a lot of people who profess to be christians, but only subscribe to the easy stuff (and ignore the rest).

If everyone read it, there would be a lot more atheists.

1. Good people from all religions seem to suffer horrible things in life and many atheists seem to be having a blast, basically there is no connection here, it is abundantly clear that this god does not punish you in this life for saying bad things to him. Ok first hurdle clear that this life wont be effected whatever we say.

2. Now looking at this god's complete lack of control on this world, it seems to me that he is almost certainly NOT omnipotent and simply pretends that he is. Seems like we shouldnt be as much afraid of this god as you may think, maybe humans are actually capable of defeating this god come the judgement day who knows.

3. If this god is indeed omnipotent then you have to realise one thing, he makes people who believe in him and love him suffer absolutely unthinkably horrible things. You can believe in whatever god you want and you wont be immune from suffering the worst things in life, there's ample evidence for this. Now the point is if this god despite having all powers treats his own followers and haters so horribly indiscriminately almost like randomly, why do you think you are on some safer side by not being on the bad side of this god?

Gambler_3

1. In Islam, there's an explanation for that: God puts the Muslims through tests to increase their piety. As for the sinners/disbelievers, their good fortune is a sign of God's wrath. The latter is true because of the former.

2. Just because we don't see any tangible results of God's control, doesn't necessarily mean he's not doing anything. And that certainly is not enough to go far as to say he's not omnipotent. I personally believe that God is actually purposefully not doing anything on Earth. Also, the idea of "defeating" God is absolutely absurd, given that he's omnipotent. And even if he isn't omnipotent, who is to say that this "inferiority complex" he apparently has actually hinders his strength in any way?

3. The explanation for that according to religion is that God does that to test human beings. Also, since God is omnipotent, he can do whatever he wants to anyone, which is why it seems so random.

In the Old Testament, God is a vicious tyrant. However, if there was a God, it would not be the God of the Bible. I think that God would want us to be happy and to live for ourselves, not for his sake. Why would he create this universe for us if he didn't want us to enjoy it? Of course, I am ignoring the argument from evil in that bad things happen to good people and the argument from poor design in that people aren't created perfectly. They have blind spots in their eyes for instant.Genetic_Code

Have you ever made a city in sim city, only to unleash a dinosaur on it to mess it all up? Wasn't it fun?

Have you ever made a city in sim city, only to unleash a dinosaur on it to mess it all up? Wasn't it fun?

Plzhelpmelearn

Do you know the difference between fantasy and reality?

Have you ever made a city in sim city, only to unleash a dinosaur on it to mess it all up? Wasn't it fun?

Plzhelpmelearn

You know, it has always perplexed me as to why so many humans think that God is a just creature. Many religious people seem to think that his set of rules and morals are inherently "good", simply because he's God. They even think that he can piss all over us, and it would make it okay, once again because he's God (the creator of everything). However, I completely disagree. God may tell us his definition of what is right and wrong, but I think what God has to say is just, like, his opinion, man. Animatronic64

If they think that his rules and morals are good simply because he is God, I really hope they do understand the nature of God. Because if they did understand the nature of God, they would also believe that he cannot piss all over us, and it would make it okay, because that would be against his nature. Therefore, those who purport that the rules and morals that are instituted in the universe are inherently "good" by whatever those methods of reasoning are, have come to the right conclusion, but through erroneous reasoning.

Like the science exams, you don't just write down the correct answer and hope to get full marks. Your answer would be considered wrong, because you did not show your methods in attaining that answer.

So, it got me thinking. If things like homosexuality and murder are considered a sin. Why does God allow for his creations to be born as homosexuals or mentally ill serial killers? And completely out of their own will, I might add. Really, It seems a lot like a form of mental torture. You know you're gay or lust for blood, but you can't actually commit the acts because you might have to face the wrath of God. To me it seems like God has these people completely cornered, so he's basically raping them.Animatronic64

These are your premises:

1) God created a set of Good Rules and Morals

2) God created humans with the capacity to be evil

Therefore, God is a bully. 

Say we accept the first premise, that in order to be in God's grace we need to live a good life. The question is, was it wrong to institute these Obligations if we have the capacity to sin?

Let us clear a couple of things. Your argument of homosexuals and mentally ill serial killers is a straw man. Homosexuality is not a sin; Homosexual acts are a sin. Mental disability isn't a sin; murder is a sin on most accounts, and even if the evil act is rooted in the psychological disturbances of an individual, psychologists would argue it is too complex to simply state that it was at the fault of a psychological disorder, that situational and environmental factors played a part, and criminologists would verify this.

The capacity to be evil stems from the idea of free will. God created creatures with the gift of free will. They are allowed to do anything they want. Therefore, they are also allowed to turn from him. True, it would seem those born as homosexuals and those born mentally ill would seem at a disadvantage to obey God. But that's another fallacious notion: heterosexual acts can and usually are just as sinful as homosexual acts. A heterosexual is open to different types of disobedience (e.g polygamy) than a homosexual. Mentally ill people on the other hand, if they are incapable of loving and obeying God with a healthy capacity, are said to be judged according to their full capacity.

To say that God is a bully because we are inclined to behave sinfully is both cynical and pessimistic. Through the privilege of free will, we are given free reign to do whatever we want, though God desires us to obey Good Rules and Morals. By our own selfishness, we choose to disobey. In that light, God seems less like a bully, but we seem more like naughty children. 

If such a perfect entity can create something so primitive, it has purposely done so. This universe is a cold and barbaric place. Conflict is the norm, and needless to say, you all know what kind of things go down between the organisms on this planet. To make matters even worse, our God apparently does not intervene at all. The way I see it is that we are nothing more than his test subjects. There's a big reinforced glass in between us and God, but only God can see through the glass. We are put through all sorts of horrible tests. Every now and then someone may luck out, but how many don't? How many face the prospect of imminent doom? I would say too many. And what does God do? He just watches. He kind of just set up a gladiator match and he's having himself a good time.Animatronic64

Again, I'll break down your argument into premises:

1) The universe sucks

2) God does not intervene

Therefore, God is a bully. 

Again, let us accept the first premise, the universe sucks. Shouldn't God make this place right, then? Why has he never come to our aid? Why is it so fun for him to just sit and watch? Well, the first place to look at would be religion, but because of the stigma of religion on this board, it unfortunately is avoided. The Abrahamic religions claim that God in fact did intervene. Through the prophets, through God's Chosen People (chosen to spread the news about Yahweh, the true God, that's what it means), and for Christians, God himself coming down to show us how its done, it would be absurd to suggest God did not intervene.

However, the contention here is that God is not intervening according to what YOU would believe is sufficient. Suppose we believe this God is All Good, All Powerful, All Knowing etc. If that is the case, how is each and everyone one of us, Not All Good, Not All Powerful, Not All Knowing etc suppose to tell God what to do? It's logically fallacious for an Imperfect Being to judge the actions of a Perfect Being (assuming he is perfect. I'm arguing from the point that this discussion stems from the religions that greatly affect Western Civilization, namely Christianity and its like others). It would be absurd for an adult to take orders from a four year old, and likewise, it's absurd for God to take orders from us. He can temporarily appease us as we pray a petition, like how a four year old wants a lollipop that wouldn't be harmful if eaten on occasion. But you're asking God if you can drive his cosmic car for a second to correct things, and you're four years old. But the world sucks! Yes, it indeed does. He's told us how it will stop sucking (it's in Scripture), and to do so, we have to eat our vegetables (follow Good Rules and Morals). But there are quite a few of us who don't like eating our vegetables, aren't there? Father, what a bully you are!

So why do so many worship this creature? I'll tell you why. It's not completely out of respect, it's out of fear. If God is real, and what the bible says is true. He has the power to put us through an eternity of hell - or worse. Why defy something with the power to do so? It's better to believe that God is a lovely little thing that can do no wrong, than it is to think otherwise of God. Even if it means to completely disregard the fallacies. Having read the Bible and Qur'an, as well as experienced this world, I can't say I am too motivated to worship a god as depicted by either religion.

So, what's your reason for not wanting to worship this dude?  

Animatronic64

I'm a Catholic. Unfortunately, I don't fit the bill. I respect God, out of Love, Awe, and Fear. Before you cherry pick that I fear God, fear without love is irrational. Love without fear is irrational. Fear and love together are completely rational. It's a digression, but think about it in your own time.

I would argue that your reading of the Bible (and Qu'ran, though you show no examples) was in error. Firstly, there's nothing worse than Hell, and it's dangerous to feed into your own ignorance. True, God does have the power to put us in Heaven or Hell. And you have, on average, 70-80 years of your life (if you live that long) to make sure you don't choose the latter. Yes, Heaven and Hell is a choice on YOUR part. You don't choose by meeting St Peter at the pearly gates and saying "Yep, Heaven looks good!", you do it by your actions throughout this life. Heaven is complete existence with God, Hell is complete existence without God. It's as simple as that. The question is, where do you want to end up?

If they think that his rules and morals are good simply because he is God, I really hope they do understand the nature of God. Because if they did understand the nature of God, they would also believe that he cannot piss all over us, and it would make it okay, because that would be against his nature. Therefore, those who purport that the rules and morals that are instituted in the universe are inherently "good" by whatever those methods of reasoning are, have come to the right conclusion, but through erroneous reasoning.

Like the science exams, you don't just write down the correct answer and hope to get full marks. Your answer would be considered wrong, because you did not show your methods in attaining that answer.

FrozenLiquid

I always perceived the rules of the universe to be amoral, and not good. How else could you explain the countless and needless death and suffering of innocents by natural phenomena?

the scientific answer would not be considered wrong if no justification is shown - merely unjustified. In today's educational climate, you may still get a mark or two.

These are your premises:

1) God created a set of Good Rules and Morals

2) God created humans with the capacity to be evil

Therefore, God is a bully.

Say we accept the first premise, that in order to be in God's grace we need to live a good life. The question is, was it wrong to institute these Obligations if we have the capacity to sin?

Let us clear a couple of things. Your argument of homosexuals and mentally ill serial killers is a straw man. Homosexuality is not a sin; Homosexual acts are a sin. Mental disability isn't a sin; murder is a sin on most accounts, and even if the evil act is rooted in the psychological disturbances of an individual, psychologists would argue it is too complex to simply state that it was at the fault of a psychological disorder, that situational and environmental factors played a part, and criminologists would verify this.

The capacity to be evil stems from the idea of free will. God created creatures with the gift of free will. They are allowed to do anything they want. Therefore, they are also allowed to turn from him. True, it would seem those born as homosexuals and those born mentally ill would seem at a disadvantage to obey God. But that's another fallacious notion: heterosexual acts can and usually are just as sinful as homosexual acts. A heterosexual is open to different types of disobedience (e.g polygamy) than a homosexual. Mentally ill people on the other hand, if they are incapable of loving and obeying God with a healthy capacity, are said to be judged according to their full capacity.

To say that God is a bully because we are inclined to behave sinfully is both cynical and pessimistic. Through the privilege of free will, we are given free reign to do whatever we want, though God desires us to obey Good Rules and Morals. By our own selfishness, we choose to disobey. In that light, God seems less like a bully, but we seem more like naughty children.

FrozenLiquid

Here are your premises:

1) God made us to have free will

2) Because of this "gift" everything we do is not Gods fault, despite humans being created entirely by God. There is absolutely no accountability from God to us, since the 2000 year old book that has caused division and misery absolves God of any resposibility as to why our natural desires and sexual reproductive functions have been given to us.

3) Because of some old book, then milennia of human intervention over its meaning, you condemn certain human actions as sins that will damn people to an eternal doom.

4) Other stuff in the book you should covet, like; murdering disrespectful children, beating your slaves, not eating pork, etc, gets entirely ignored.

5) Although your book says its not you who should judge others, you don't seem to mind doing just that!

I didn't think a homosexual act was the trigger point for a sin. I though homosexual thought or desire was in itself enough for a sin to be chalked up and entry to your heaven denied - as is heterosexual lust. Perhaps you have a different concept of sin to other Christians or Catholics. This isn't uncommon, since there are various interpretations over this between followers of Christ. Please don't lump homosexuality and criminality in the same sense! How would you define mental illness? Perhaps as not believing in your God?

The notion of God bullying us is entirely disconnected with any moral outlook, since bad people are not always punished and good people don't always thrive in this world. Certain natural disasters have doubtlessly killed billions of innocent children over the years. Ther are high infant mortality figures and epidemic diseases that have affected all societies, religious and otherwise. Even good Catholics are not exempt!

Again, I'll break down your argument into premises:

1) The universe sucks

2) God does not intervene

Therefore, God is a bully.

Again, let us accept the first premise, the universe sucks. Shouldn't God make this place right, then? Why has he never come to our aid? Why is it so fun for him to just sit and watch? Well, the first place to look at would be religion, but because of the stigma of religion on this board, it unfortunately is avoided. The Abrahamic religions claim that God in fact did intervene. Through the prophets, through God's Chosen People (chosen to spread the news about Yahweh, the true God, that's what it means), and for Christians, God himself coming down to show us how its done, it would be absurd to suggest God did not intervene.

However, the contention here is that God is not intervening according to what YOU would believe is sufficient. Suppose we believe this God is All Good, All Powerful, All Knowing etc. If that is the case, how is each and everyone one of us, Not All Good, Not All Powerful, Not All Knowing etc suppose to tell God what to do? It's logically fallacious for an Imperfect Being to judge the actions of a Perfect Being (assuming he is perfect. I'm arguing from the point that this discussion stems from the religions that greatly affect Western Civilization, namely Christianity and its like others). It would be absurd for an adult to take orders from a four year old, and likewise, it's absurd for God to take orders from us. He can temporarily appease us as we pray a petition, like how a four year old wants a lollipop that wouldn't be harmful if eaten on occasion. But you're asking God if you can drive his cosmic car for a second to correct things, and you're four years old. But the world sucks! Yes, it indeed does. He's told us how it will stop sucking (it's in Scripture), and to do so, we have to eat our vegetables (follow Good Rules and Morals). But there are quite a few of us who don't like eating our vegetables, aren't there? Father, what a bully you are!

FrozenLiquid

Again, here are your premises:

1) The world does suck

2) God is bigger than me

3) How could I, as a mere human, ask God why the world sucks and is not like in the bible - I bet I wouldn't even understand if God told me, so I won't bother.

4) Instead, I'll go about trying to instill the same unjustified, irrational fear in others that I feel myself.

Religion is avoided on this board? No, religion is the main discussion point of this board. Its the sole reason for this board. There are also other boards discussing particular religions here on this site. I think we can discuss all of them here in this union.

I find it absurd you say God did intervene. Where is your proof? The flood story? Are we talking about vengeful interference now or benevolent interference?

Your argument over perfection becomes circular when you see the supposed "perfection" claimed in the bible is plainly not what actually transpires. It would be lovely to think of some fluffy benevolent overseer, but when such tragedy and suffering occurs on earth, the disparity to what's been promised and what's being delivered makes rational questioning appropriate.

I'm not talking about talking orders - only about offering some explanation the gaps in the doctrine to the realities of life. A four year old should not constantly ask for lollipops, but should have a valid desire not be drowned in a tsunami.

I'm glad you do agree that the world your God created does suck. I hope your God doesn't take offense at your merely "human" opinion of your God's creation for you. I don't think the world sucks thankfully, since I'm an atheist.

I'm a Catholic. Unfortunately, I don't fit the bill. I respect God, out of Love, Awe, and Fear. Before you cherry pick that I fear God, fear without love is irrational. Love without fear is irrational. Fear and love together are completely rational. It's a digression, but think about it in your own time.

I would argue that your reading of the Bible (and Qu'ran, though you show no examples) was in error. Firstly, there's nothing worse than Hell, and it's dangerous to feed into your own ignorance. True, God does have the power to put us in Heaven or Hell. And you have, on average, 70-80 years of your life (if you live that long) to make sure you don't choose the latter. Yes, Heaven and Hell is a choice on YOUR part. You don't choose by meeting St Peter at the pearly gates and saying "Yep, Heaven looks good!", you do it by your actions throughout this life. Heaven is complete existence with God, Hell is complete existence without God. It's as simple as that. The question is, where do you want to end up?

FrozenLiquid

Love without fear is irrational? What the? Please explain your rationality here. If you believe in the wrong God, you may be worse off - come the end of your life. Most religions punish followers of false idols more harshly than people who've led morally good lives. How does Catholic "rationality" fare with these questions?:

Do you really believe that the Pope is infallible? (Especially this current one!)

Do you really think Catholic priests are closer to God than you are?

Was it really ok for the Pope to underwrite Fascism in 1936?