Faith School Menace?

Faith School Menace? "Professor Richard Dawkins calls on us to reconsider the consequences of faith education, which, he believes, indoctrinates and divides children, and bamboozles parents" This should be interesting to watch. I saw it being advertised on Channel 4 recently, and it showed a clip of a Muslim woman telling Richard Dawkins that they do not teach evolution. My personal opinion on faith schools is that I would agree with Richard Dawkins, and I would be supportive of them being abolished. However, the opposite is happening: the current coalition government is planning to expand them. :|michaelP4

XD I'm imagining Dawkins saying "bamboozles". It's funny to me when he says odd words in his soft accent.

I am, of course, fairly opposed to faith schools, and I certainly do not endorse leaving evolutionary process out of the curicculum. I'm not sure why a government would plan to expand them, I might need to read up on that.

Faith schools can easily indoctrinate children (though that can happen at home anyway), and it also seems to leave children with less options and less exposure to the surrounding world and people that are different from them. Never a good thing. :(

I don't see what the problem is of teaching children about their Religion, so long as they don't force them to believe everything they hear.

Regarding evolution and Islam, Islam has never really accepted it nor refuted it. Interestingly, according to the Noble Quran it states that Allah turned some people into Pigs and Monkeys as punishment for disobeying him.

"...those who are condemned by Allah after incurring His wrath until He made them monkeys and pigs..." (5:60)

Which would explain why Pig organs are frighteningly similar to our organs.

I'm not sure whether they should be abolish, but I would like to see more regulations place on them, especially on the teachers they hire. I was in a Christian private school for the last 4 years, and some of the teachers doesn't seem to bright, or are to superstitious. My last teacher said that she was possessed by demons when she actually just experienced sleep paralysis.Lonelynight

Well that's more of an issue with the school's hiring decisions. They're shooting themselves in the foot if they hire idiots for teachers (although let's be honest, since when has being stupid ever stopped a person from teaching K-12?)

Anyway, I don't have any problem with faith schools as long as they're not funded by public money. I doubt they have much of an impact on indoctrinating kids anyway since the family would have much more impact and if a kid is being sent to a religious school then odds are the family is pretty religious. Granted some kids go to religious schools despite the family not being very religious if only because the school just so happens to offer the best education in the area, but those kids usually don't come away caring about the religion any more than when they started. Some even come out of the school hating the religion even more.

As for the quote from the Qur'an, that does not support that it advocates evolution. Evolution is something that happens over a long period of time, unlike creationism, which happens (almost) instantly.michaelP4

Again, Islam simply refutes the belief that we evolved from Apes. The quote from the Quran I posted at least tries to explain why there are some close similarities between Humans and primates.

[QUOTE="michaelP4"] As for the quote from the Qur'an, that does not support that it advocates evolution. Evolution is something that happens over a long period of time, unlike creationism, which happens (almost) instantly.SpinoRaptor24

Again, Islam simply refutes the belief that we evolved from Apes. The quote from the Quran I posted at least tries to explain why there are some close similarities between Humans and primates.

I suppose the Ialsmic refutation of evolution must be rather simple; seeing as that reasoning would only be based on a conflict of established belief, rather than looking at any evidence. Your Islamic quote explains nothing about similarities between humans and primates - only about the vengefulness of your oppressor.

I am very much against the idea that we as atheists must "destroy" religious practice in all regards. This is the one thing I've never seen as positive coming from Dawkins. He may true to subdue it into a lesser form, but he is on the outright attack against religion in all his works, and won't stop until we are all godless. I would disagree entirely with his sentiment, if it weren't for the idea of indoctrination. We should allow our children to choose what is right for them, and still teach them about their heritage, just not force it down their throats and tell them its "all right."foxhound_fox

UK publically funded faith schools are a disgrace and Dawkins is right to highlight the inequality and factionalisation of children due to the UK faith school program. Why shouldn't schools be allowed to teach children about all religions and none, rather than try conditioning them to a particular flavour of faith that generates isolationism, hatred and gaps in childrens' knowledge about their peers who believe other faiths.

The UK is widely multi-cultural, but there are too many cultural ghettos on the increase. Islamic only schools are bound to generate greater numbers of Muslims who will have a direct doctrinal conflict with the kids from Christian schools, or Jewish schools from down the road. I'm not sure if Dawkins is saying "destroy religion" as you assert, since the show hasn't been broadcast yet. But the system of faith schools as existing in the UK does force religion down childrens' throats and tells them it's alright - using public funds to do so.

I suppose the Ialsmic refutation of evolution must be rather simple; seeing as that reasoning would only be based on a conflict of established belief, rather than looking at any evidence. Your Islamic quote explains nothing about similarities between humans and primates - only about the vengefulness of your oppressor.RationalAtheist

Yes it does. Humans disobeyed God, so he turned them into monkeys.

Which explains why they are rather similar to us (Pigs also).

Punishing those who disobey =/= oppressing.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I suppose the Ialsmic refutation of evolution must be rather simple; seeing as that reasoning would only be based on a conflict of established belief, rather than looking at any evidence. Your Islamic quote explains nothing about similarities between humans and primates - only about the vengefulness of your oppressor.SpinoRaptor24

Yes it does. Humans disobeyed God, so he turned them into monkeys.

Which explains why they are rather similar to us (Pigs also).

Punishing those who disobey =/= oppressing.

So monkeys and pigs didn't exist before humans then? Or did God fail in turning humans into pigs by not fully turning them into pigs or monkeys, since our dna is so similar? Did God turn people into bananas too, or into reptiles, since they also share some of our DNA, just like all other living things on Earth? The passage you refer to does not explain anything - it makes unfounded statements without explaining them at all! This leaves you to make up stuff (as you have) to fill the gaps that sounds ridiculous and non-sensical.

If you look carefully, you'll find that oppressing is "punishing those who disobey". Have you heard of "Stockholm Syndrome"?

So monkeys and pigs didn't exist before humans then? RationalAtheist

I never said that. 

Or did God fail in turning humans into pigs by not fully turning them into pigs or monkeys, since our dna is so similar? Did God turn people into bananas too, or into reptiles, since they also share some of our DNA, just like all other living things on Earth?RationalAtheist

All living things share similar DNA. Why? Because every living creature is made from water, as stated in the Quran: "Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?" (21:30) Pigs/Monkeys are similar to an extent that we can use their organs to our benefit. Pig organs have been used in human transplants.

The passage you refer to does not explain anything - it makes unfounded statements without explaining them at all! This leaves you to make up stuff (as you have) to fill the gaps that sounds ridiculous and non-sensical.

RationalAtheist

What is so ridiculous about God punishing those who turned against him? I've been pretty simple in my answers;  What, are you going to play the " I wouldn't have done that if I was God because I'm somehow morally superior" game now?

 

If you look carefully, you'll find that oppressing is "punishing those who disobey". Have you heard of "Stockholm Syndrome"?

RationalAtheist

No it isn't. Oppressing means tyrannizing individuals. When Allah forbids something he does it for your own good, not because he wants to oppress you or limit you.

For example; Alcohol and Swine meat are both forbidden in Islam (and other religions too). Why? Because Allah hates you and wants to oppress you? No. Because both Alcohol and Swine meat have been proven to be harmful to the human body and that is why Allah forbids you to consume it.

(know it is unrelated, just trying to prove a point)

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

So monkeys and pigs didn't exist before humans then? SpinoRaptor24

I never said that.

Nor did I - I asked it. But rather than clarify your point, you protested that I ask.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Or did God fail in turning humans into pigs by not fully turning them into pigs or monkeys, since our dna is so similar? Did God turn people into bananas too, or into reptiles, since they also share some of our DNA, just like all other living things on Earth?SpinoRaptor24

All living things share similar DNA. Why? Because every living creature is made from water, as stated in the Quran: "Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?" (21:30) Pigs/Monkeys are similar to an extent that we can use their organs to our benefit. Pig organs have been used in human transplants.

Other things are made from water, but don't have dna, or live. Water does not live - its a chemical. Why believe something just because its written in an old book? Don't you realise that discoveries have been made since then that contribute to our understanding of the world and provide us with medicine and cure for disease - just like genetics research does?

Pigs and monkeys are similar since we share similar genetic heritage, not because of some fairy story about an angry God. Were all humans turned into pigs? If not, why would we share any similarities with them - if just those who displeased your God were oppressed like that? Even the logic of your assertion fails, hence me asking the first question that you went into denial about.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

The passage you refer to does not explain anything - it makes unfounded statements without explaining them at all! This leaves you to make up stuff (as you have) to fill the gaps that sounds ridiculous and non-sensical.

SpinoRaptor24

What is so ridiculous about God punishing those who turned against him? I've been pretty simple in my answers; What, are you going to play the " I wouldn't have done that if I was God because I'm somehow morally superior" game now?

Would you be that vengeful, yourself?

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

If you look carefully, you'll find that oppressing is "punishing those who disobey". Have you heard of "Stockholm Syndrome"?

SpinoRaptor24

No it isn't. Oppressing means tyrannizing individuals. When Allah forbids something he does it for your own good, not because he wants to oppress you or limit you.

For example; Alcohol and Swine meat are both forbidden in Islam (and other religions too). Why? Because Allah hates you and wants to oppress you? No. Because both Alcohol and Swine meat have been proven to be harmful to the human body and that is why Allah forbids you to consume it.

(know it is unrelated, just trying to prove a point)

You were not talking about forbidding, but turning people into pigs instead. That's going past the forbidding bit and going straight to the smiting. Living under rules for "your good" could be called oppression, since the determiniation of "good" is the oppressor's.

You should try telling Chinese people about swine being bad for you, since the Chinese word for "meat" is "pig" - they eat so much of it. Most people in my country eat it every day for breakfast too. These statements about "proof" should really be backed up with some, well proof! Else I'll continue to believe tha pork is perfectly fine and that you are missing out. Personally, I agree about alcohol, but I believe strongly in self-reliance and accountability, rather than placing my responsibilities in the hands of one of a number of competing faiths.

Suppose you had to have a transplant, and the only available organ was a pig organ. Would Allah forbid you to consume it into your body, or would Allah be ok with you doing it for your own good (i.e. survival)? Why do the western and eastern Islamic faiths disagree about medical transplantation and organ donation in general?

Not necessarily. Just look at Gabu. Scientific thought further increases his faith.foxhound_fox

I'll wait until he answers your question in the other thread before I concede that one!

Actually, of course I will concede that not all people loose faith as they change their view from scriptural to modernist. Perhaps Mindstorm is a better example of this. I remember him being fiercely creationist way back when, but he's fiercely "emergent" now, from what I believe.

But there is the still the danger of loss of faith with a shift of thinking, since if you start abandoning some of the exacting rules of the doctrine supporting your original faith, where do you stop? What is the objective discrimination between alegory and revealed truth? Accepting a modernist perspective does rely on rationalist principles, which conflict with the rejected religious ideas.

Nor did I - I asked it. But rather than clarify your point, you protested that I ask.

RationalAtheist

I am not very knowledgeable with evolution and speciation. I know the basics as I did study biology for two years, but that is pretty much it. I only merely gave an explanation through the words of the Quran.

Other things are made from water, but don't have dna, or live. Water does not live - its a chemical. Why believe something just because its written in an old book? Don't you realise that discoveries have been made since then that contribute to our understanding of the world and provide us with medicine and cure for disease - just like genetics research does?

RationalAtheist

Again, I never said anything about water being a living thing. I merely stated that all organisms are made up of water, which is an established scientific fact, as they need some form of liquid to send needed molecules around their body. I know very well what water is.

First of all, the Quran is considered to be the final Revelation of God, so that must be taken into consideration before calling it "some old book". Second of all, it has made true statements about the Universe. How could one illiterate man living in the desert 1400 years ago make such accurate claims of the Universe?

Islam has never been against knowledge of the Universe, so long as it is beneficial. In fact many verses of the Quran and sayings of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) encourage individuals to seek knowledge. Islam is not the same as Christianity. Keep that in mind.

Pigs and monkeys are similar since we share similar genetic heritage, not because of some fairy story about an angry God. Were all humans turned into pigs? If not, why would we share any similarities with them - if just those who displeased your God were oppressed like that? Even the logic of your assertion fails, hence me asking the first question that you went into denial about.

RationalAtheist

So at some point we Humans used to be pigs? I mean, the reason why evolutionists believe we are so similar to apes is because we descended from their ancestors. Pigs are also extremely similar to us, does that mean Human Beings were at some point also Pigs? (I'm not trying to challenge you I seriously want to know).

You know, I was watching a documentary once about farm animals and about some farmer who kept his pigs in unhealthy conditions. What the farmer noticed was that Pigs were more...sentient than other farm animals such as cows, goats and sheep. They also exhibited human like intelligence such as being able to unlock doors with their snouts or something like that. Also cannibals once claimed that Human meat tastes a lot like pig meat.

Some food for though I guess?

Would you be that vengeful, yourself?

RationalAtheist

I am not God. Throughout the Quran we learn that Allah is a sole deity that has vast self respect and honor of himself, more than anyone can imagine.

Let me ask you a question; suppose you worked hard to raise $10,000 to purchase a pet dog. But this wasn't just any dog, this dog was the finest and most beautiful dog you've ever seen in your life. You shower this dog with love and mercy because of how much you spent on it.

Now imagine that one day, this dog bites you hard and runs out the front door, away from you, never to be seen again. Wouldn't you be angry and upset at that dog?

Well that is the similitude between Allah and his creation. (though probably a weak one, just trying to give an example).

You were not talking about forbidding, but turning people into pigs instead. That's going past the forbidding bit and going straight to the smiting. Living under rules for "your good" could be called oppression, since the determiniation of "good" is the oppressor's.

You should try telling Chinese people about swine being bad for you, since the Chinese word for "meat" is "pig" - they eat so much of it. Most people in my country eat it every day for breakfast too. These statements about "proof" should really be backed up with some, well proof! Else I'll continue to believe tha pork is perfectly fine and that you are missing out. Personally, I agree about alcohol, but I believe strongly in self-reliance and accountability, rather than placing my responsibilities in the hands of one of a number of competing faiths.

Suppose you had to have a transplant, and the only available organ was a pig organ. Would Allah forbid you to consume it into your body, or would Allah be ok with you doing it for your own good (i.e. survival)? Why do the western and eastern Islamic faiths disagree about medical transplantation and organ donation in general?

RationalAtheist

If Allah was the one who created you and the entire universe, then wouldn't it be logical that he would know more about you than you do about yourself?

But I'll give you a reason why Pork is harmful anyway. Pork is harmful because it contains a variety of diseases. Not only that, but it also contains far more unhealthy fat and cholesterol than other kinds of edible meat (beef, mutton, chicken etc)

An interesting article:

Lard contains 2800 units of vitamin D per 100 grams and no vitamin A at all. Lately vitamin D has been held responsible for atheroma, by causing increased absorption of calcium in the blood vessels. In human beings, serum cholesterol is not dependent on the intake of cholesterol in the diet, but depends upon the proportion of animal fats in the diet, which elevates the beta-lipo protein level in the blood. Animal fats contain saturated fatty acids and these saturated fatty acids have been found to be as one of the causes of atheroma in man. Medium fat bacon contains 25% proteins and 55% fat".

"According to medical research, the fat content in pork is more than any other meat (beef, mutton etc.) and it takes longer to digest. Dr. M Jaffer in an article in the Islamic Review (London) of January 1997 issue has listed 16 kinds of harmful germs, which have been discovered in pork in modern researches and the diseases, which could be caused by them. The number of patients suffering from tapeworm disease is the highest in the world among pork eating nations. Other diseases attributed to pigs are caused by tri-chinelia spirates and intestinal worms occupy first place among such nations too"

As far as I know, only ingestion of Pork is forbidden. If it was a matter of life or death, then I would consider taking an organ transplant from a pig.

You are also allowed to eat pork if you are in the brink of starving to death. 

And I don't know much about transplants and Islamic faith. I'll get back to you on that later.

Of course, in the end, just because a holy text may contain a piece of material that in some way relates to a modern scientific discovery, does not prove that line of reasoning correct; it only proves that at the time it was written, was it true. I understand your intentions SpinoRaptor, but I personally don't see why it is such an importance to justify a religious text within a modern, objective setting.

If the Qur'an is the Word of God, and the absolute truth of the universe, then shouldn't your faith alone allow you to accept it? Or is it something that is only universally true for a time period long past? Must you adopt a more modern hermeneutics (explanatory system) that helps contextualize the belief, in a less literal fashion, and give you more reason to see your faith as a means to mystical experience, and less a means to explain the objective universe?

foxhound_fox

Fox I am not saying that the Quran is the word of God because it is compatible with science, I am saying that all of these modern scientific discoveries such as the Big Bang, Expansion of the Universe, Supernovas, the water cycle, orbits of the planets etc. that were only recently found out was already known by Muslims these past 1400 years. And that just begs the question of how an illiterate man living in extreme poverty in one of the worlds harshest environments manage to make such accurate statements about the Universe.

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it" (15:9)

I would never follow a religion by blind faith. I believe that if your Religion is the true religion of God, then you must have some form of proof (such as a Sacred Book) to prove it so. And it must have logical answers to common questions such as who created us and why, what our purpose is, what happens to us once we enter the grave etc.

Also, if it is the word of God, then it must be free from inconsistencies and contradictions, which is the reason why I dismiss the Bible as the word of God.

Fox I am not saying that the Quran is the word of God because it is compatible with science, I am saying that all of these modern scientific discoveries such as the Big Bang, Expansion of the Universe, Supernovas, the water cycle, orbits of the planets etc. that were only recently found out was already known by Muslims these past 1400 years. And that just begs the question of how an illiterate man living in extreme poverty in one of the worlds harshest environments manage to make such accurate statements about the Universe.

We believe that the Quran is the final revelation sent down by God and it will remain that way until the Day of Judgement.

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it" (15:9)

I would never follow a religion by blind faith. I believe that if your Religion is the true religion of God, then you must have some form of proof (such as a Sacred Book) to prove it so. And it must have logical answers to common questions such as who created us and why, what our purpose is, what happens to us once we enter the grave etc.

Also, if it is the word of God, then it must be free from inconsistencies and contradictions, which is the reason why I dismiss the Bible as the word of God.

SpinoRaptor24

Oh how did I miss what is going on in this thread?

SpinoRaptor24 the discussion you have invoked is a very time consuming one, I will respond to all of your posts as soon as I have the time to.

Regarding evolution and Islam, Islam has never really accepted it nor refuted it. Interestingly, according to the Noble Quran it states that Allah turned some people into Pigs and Monkeys as punishment for disobeying him.

"...those who are condemned by Allah after incurring His wrath until He made them monkeys and pigs..." (5:60)

Which would explain why Pig organs are frighteningly similar to our organs.

SpinoRaptor24

What about the similarity of dolphins and humans? They are the only species which do sex for pleasure IIRC.

And which scientific theory says that humans can or did change into monkeys and pigs? If there isnt one than what is your point?

and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?" (21:30) SpinoRaptor24

How exactly can this statement be proven wrong? We need water to survive, that alone would have saved that verse from being "proven" wrong no matter what science had found out of the human body.

Had the verse specifically said that water constitutes a large percentage of the materials from which life is made, I could take it seriously. But something which is non-falsifiable is hardly something you should use to "prove" something.

For example; Alcohol and Swine meat are both forbidden in Islam (and other religions too). Why? Because Allah hates you and wants to oppress you? No. Because both Alcohol and Swine meat have been proven to be harmful to the human body and that is why Allah forbids you to consume it.

(know it is unrelated, just trying to prove a point)

SpinoRaptor24

Why do diabetic muslims still eat sugar? Surely it should be haram considering that is what really can instantly kill you. And how come the developed world eats alot more pork and drink more alcohol than the muslim world and yet their average life expectancy is much higher than in the muslim worlds? 

I am saying that all of these modern scientific discoveries such as the Big Bang, Expansion of the Universe, Supernovas, the water cycle, orbits of the planets etc. that were only recently found out was already known by Muslims these past 1400 years. And that just begs the question of how an illiterate man living in extreme poverty in one of the worlds harshest environments manage to make such accurate statements about the Universe.

SpinoRaptor24

And "extreme poverty" lolwtfbbq?? Muhammad married an extremely rich woman at the age of 25, yes poverty indeed.:|

And he might be illiterate but he was very intelligent and also had many learned people around him to guide.

as stated in the Quran: "Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them,SpinoRaptor24

Also, if it is the word of God, then it must be free from inconsistencies and contradictions, which is the reason why I dismiss the Bible as the word of God.SpinoRaptor24

If this isnt creationism in it's absolute literal form than I dont know what is. "Be" and "it was" is nowhere to be found in the history of biological and physical science. So why exactly do you reject human evolution? Why do you accept the other scientific things just because they seem to agree with the quran? Are you aware that evolution is one of the most established facts in science today? Ok forget I dont want an evolution debate here, I have much more stuff for you.

He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.Qur'an 2:29

Earth wasnt created before the heavens so there we have another error.

In polar regions, the longevity of day and night vary during summer and winter. Muhammad didn't know about this and he only repeated earlier geocentric ideas:

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit. Qur'an 36:40

Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does any one know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: Nor does any one know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things). Qur'an 31:34

Current technology, such as sonography, has enabled observation of baby's gender through ultrasonic imaging. There are also sex selection clinics that allow gender determination nowadays.

And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction.Qur'an 51:49

Not every creature procreates or reproduces through male and female sexual relationship. The whiptail lizard in the U.S. Southwest, Mexico, and South America, which consists only of females who reproduce by parthenogenesis. Allah does not know anything about the biological process by which new individual organisms are produced. Today we know you can find an organism which creates a genetically-similar or identical copy of itself without a contribution of genetic material from another individual. There's also hermaphrodites. 

So now do you dismiss the quran as well??

I'm bored, so I think I'll chime in here. :P

"To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is"Qur'an 2:117

Gambler_3

That verse just emphasises that God has limitless power. 

He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.Qur'an 2:29

Earth wasnt created before the heavens so there we have another error.

Gambler_3

It's "all that is in the earth", not the earth itself. It's possible that God created trees before creating the heavens, and just put the trees on earth when he created it. So, this isn't an error, either.

In polar regions, the longevity of day and night vary during summer and winter. Muhammad didn't know about this and he only repeated earlier geocentric ideas:

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit. Qur'an 36:40

Gambler_3

This one perplexed me for a while, but it's really not that hard to understand. It has been proven that the sun also has its own orbit. In light of that, there is nothing implied here that suggests the sun revolves around the Earth.

Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does any one know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: Nor does any one know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things). Qur'an 31:34

Current technology, such as sonography, has enabled observation of baby's gender through ultrasonic imaging. There are also sex selection clinics that allow gender determination nowadays.

Gambler_3

It doesn't say that God is the only one who knows what is an mother's womb. And perhaps there's something else implied here, but I can't see it. There's nothing wrong with this verse as far as I can tell.

And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction.Qur'an 51:49

Not every creature procreates or reproduces through male and female sexual relationship. The whiptail lizard in the U.S. Southwest, Mexico, and South America, which consists only of females who reproduce by parthenogenesis. Allah does not know anything about the biological process by which new individual organisms are produced. Today we know you can find an organism which creates a genetically-similar or identical copy of itself without a contribution of genetic material from another individual. There's also hermaphrodites. 

Gambler_3

I'm not sure about that one, but here's another translation:

And of everything, spiritual, animate and inanimate, did We create pairs complementing each other: (night and day, positive and negative, love and aversion, rest and fatigue, mercy and punishment, sea and land, light and darkness, belief and disbelief, life and death, happiness and misery, heaven and Hell, male and female, …). (And when We come to the universe as a whole, there is He Who complements it and sustains it; He is One and He does not need anything to complement Him), that you people may hopefully ponder.

I know this is just one interpretation, but by reading this page, one can see that "things" is used very broadly, and may not only apply to creatures.

You seem to be a bit agitated Gambler so I'll reply to your post.

What about the frighteningly similar DNA of humans and mice?

What about the similarity of dolphins and humans? They are the only species which do sex for pleasure IIRC.

And which scientific theory says that humans can or did change into monkeys and pigs? If there isnt one than what is your point?

Gambler_3

Again, as far as I know Pigs are one the rare species that have organs very similar to ours, so similar that many scientists are looking at them for human organ transplants (which they have succeeded mind you)

What about carbon? Is it implying that living things are made only from water or water is just an ingredient? The latter is not much difficult to say for a layman seeing how much blood we have and how much water we need to drink in order to survive, the former is obviously false.

How exactly can this statement be proven wrong? We need water to survive, that alone would have saved that verse from being "proven" wrong no matter what science had found out of the human body.

Had the verse specifically said that water constitutes a large percentage of the materials from which life is made, I could take it seriously. But something which is non-falsifiable is hardly something you should use to "prove" something.

Gambler_3

I never said that water was the only thing contributing to life, nor did the Quran say it either. Allah is telling you that every living organism has water in it. That is it. Which is true. Can you bring me a living organism that does not require water?

Sugar has also been proven to be more harmful for diabetic patients than pork will ever be for someone, why didnt god forbid that? My father is also not allowed by his doctor to eat beef, why did god allow it? Why didnt god specifically prohibit smoking since he is so fond of guiding us to the right path when it comes to health?:roll:

Why do diabetic muslims still eat sugar? Surely it should be haram considering that is what really can instantly kill you. And how come the developed world eats alot more pork and drink more alcohol than the muslim world and yet their average life expectancy is much higher than in the muslim worlds? 

Gambler_3

Why? Because not everyone in the world is a diabetic, nor are they allergic to beef. In fact, you'll find those types of people in the minority.

Alcohol and Swine meat however, affects everyone, regardless of their health. See my previous link.

Easy there you are going too fast, you are talking like it's some established fact that quran has knowledge of all those things. Please post the relevant verses before we can go furthur on this.

And "extreme poverty" lolwtfbbq?? Muhammad married an extremely rich woman at the age of 25, yes poverty indeed.:|

And he might be illiterate but he was very intelligent and also had many learned people around him to guide.

Gambler_3

"Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or unwillingly. They said: We come, obedient." (Noble Quran 40:11)

Scientists often observe new stars forming out of the remnants of what appears to be "smoke".

"The Lagoon nebula is a cloud of gas and dust, about 60 light years in diameter.  It is excited by the ultraviolet radiation of the hot stars that have recently formed within its bulk." (Horizons, Exploring the Universe, Seeds, plate 9, from Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy, Inc.)

"And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are its expander." (Noble Quran 51:47)

"Soon after Hubble published his theory, he went on to discover that not only were galaxies moving away from the Earth, but were also moving away from one another.  This meant that the universe happened to be expanding in every direction, in the same way a balloon expands when filled with air.  Hubble's new findings placed the foundations for the Big Bang theory."

Muhummad (peace be upon him) often had a lot of possessions, yet he rarely used them on himself. In fact he would give others much more than he would give to himself. He was often struck with hunger so severe that his voice would become weak.

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Abu Talha said to Um Sulaim, "I have heard the voice of Allah's Apostle which was feeble, and I think that he is hungry. Have you got something (to eat)?" (Sahih Bukhari 65, 293)

Aishah reports: "God's Messenger did not have his fill of bread made of barley on two consecutive days until his death." (Related by Muslim, Ahmad, Al-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah.) This Hadith describes a life of real poverty.

And to answer your argument against pairs:

"According to Baumann, A. tesselata is lucky: It appears to be descended from a union of two related species, giving it a hybrid vigor. As for populations lacking built-in durability, he said asexual reproduction may be a useful short-term strategy. It could maintain lineages through periods of isolation, with species reverting to sexual reproduction when suitable partners were available."

The only reason the whiptailed lizard were able to reproduce asexually was because of a shortage of males. It also states that they often change sex under extreme temperatures

I've said it before that I am not trying to prove the Quran is the word of God through science, I am saying that most of these rather accurate statements were already known by Muslims 1400 years ago.

It just begs the question of how the Prophet (peace be upon him) managed to concoct all of this if he wasn't the Messeneger of God as he claimed to be.

1. That verse just emphasises that God has limitless power. 

2. It's "all that is in the earth", not the earth itself. It's possible that God created trees before creating the heavens, and just put the trees on earth when he created it. So, this isn't an error, either.

3. This one perplexed me for a while, but it's really not that hard to understand. It has been proven that the sun also has its own orbit. In light of that, there is nothing implied here that suggests the sun revolves around the Earth.

It doesn't say that God is the only one who knows what is an mother's womb. And perhaps there's something else implied here, but I can't see it. There's nothing wrong with this verse as far as I can tell.

4. I'm not sure about that one, but here's another translation:

And of everything, spiritual, animate and inanimate, did We create pairs complementing each other: (night and day, positive and negative, love and aversion, rest and fatigue, mercy and punishment, sea and land, light and darkness, belief and disbelief, life and death, happiness and misery, heaven and Hell, male and female, …). (And when We come to the universe as a whole, there is He Who complements it and sustains it; He is One and He does not need anything to complement Him), that you people may hopefully ponder.

I know this is just one interpretation, but by reading this page, one can see that "things" is used very broadly, and may not only apply to creatures.

ghoklebutter

2. But trees werent just "put" there.:|

Or wait you are now going to reject the evolution of trees?? If you are going to pick and choose what scientific things you approve of than whats the point of this discussion?

3. What does "cant overtake" means? It obviously is suggesting both sun and moon are circling the earth but they are running in turns so the system of night and day is maintained. Someone obviously didnt know about the north pole.:lol:

4. It's clear that "only" god knows it. Did you miss out "nor does anyone know"?? Why would it then it say "nor"? "IT IS HE WHO KNOWS" From that alone we can say only god knows or else if others know as well then what's the point of saying that god knows as well? The NOR then only confirms that it meant that.

5. "Everything" may not only apply to creatures but it "includes" creatures as well so what is your point?

You seem to be a bit agitated Gambler so I'll reply to your post.

SpinoRaptor24

Again, as far as I know Pigs are one the rare species that have organs very similar to ours, so similar that many scientists are looking at them for human organ transplants (which they have succeeded mind you) SpinoRaptor24

I never said that water was the only thing contributing to life, nor did the Quran say it either. Allah is telling you that every living organism has water in it. That is it. Which is true. Can you bring me a living organism that does not require water?

SpinoRaptor24

Why? Because not everyone in the world is a diabetic, nor are they allergic to beef. In fact, you'll find those types of people in the minority.

Alcohol and Swine meat however, affects everyone, regardless of their health. See my previous link.

SpinoRaptor24

1. Beef contains significant quantities of the most toxic organic chemical known - dioxin. This chemical is toxic in the trillionths of grams. (A trillionth of a gram, called a picogram, is one million millionth of a gram. A gram is about 1/30th of an ounce.) Dioxin has been linked to cancer, endometriosis, Attention Deficit Disorder (hyperactivity in children), reproductive systems defects in children, chronic fatigue syndrome, immune system deficiency, and rare nerve and blood disorders. A single hamburger (a little less than 1/4 lb, or 100 grams) contains up to 100 picograms of dioxin. That is 300 times as much as the EPA says is "acceptable" for a daily dose for an adult! There are some scientists who say that there is no acceptable dose; they say that any dose can cause toxic effects, because dioxin is a hormone disrupting chemical which changes the functioning of our cells, against which we have no defense. The dioxin comes from microscopic particles of ash from incinerators that have settled on grass and crops eaten by the beef cattle, pigs, and chickens. All farm animals are affected - even herds grown on "all-natural" feed. See dioxin.

6. Beef can harbor a deadly new germ, called e. coli O157:H7. This new germ is now a major cause of serious food poisoning. Beef and dairy cattle can carry the germ with no apparent adverse health effects. The germ, found in cattle feces, has contaminated beef and produce grown with cow manure. So far it has killed dozens of people and sickened thousands. In August, 1997, 25 million pounds of beef were recalled, the largest food recall in the world's history, because of O157:H7 contamination of beef destined to Burger King restaurants. The precautions against the germ - including cooking to 160º F (71º C) - reveals a disgusting side of beef production - there is no way to prevent fecal contamination during slaughter. See O157:H7.

http://www.cqs.com/beef.htm

So why should I accept your article anymore than this??

I'll respond to the rest of your post later.

"Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or unwillingly. They said: We come, obedient." (Noble Quran 40:11)

SpinoRaptor24

Seems like superstitious nonsense to me, where is the evidence that the earth and heavens can "speak"? And where were they before "coming" as apparantly they were alive and talking? According to the scientific model the earth didnt "come" but was formed over a long period of time.

"And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are its expander." (Noble Quran 51:47)

SpinoRaptor24

Ya sorry I cant take such an unclear and vague verse seriously.

Muhummad (peace be upon him) often had a lot of possessions, yet he rarely used them on himself. In fact he would give others much more than he would give to himself. He was often struck with hunger so severe that his voice would become weak.

SpinoRaptor24

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Abu Talha said to Um Sulaim, "I have heard the voice of Allah's Apostle which was feeble, and I think that he is hungry. Have you got something (to eat)?" (Sahih Bukhari 65, 293)

SpinoRaptor24

Aishah reports: "God's Messenger did not have his fill of bread made of barley on two consecutive days until his death." (Related by Muslim, Ahmad, Al-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah.) This Hadith describes a life of real poverty.

SpinoRaptor24

The only reason the whiptailed lizard were able to reproduce asexually was because of a shortage of males. It also states that they often change sex under extreme temperatures

SpinoRaptor24

I've said it before that I am not trying to prove the Quran is the word of God through science, I am saying that most of these rather accurate statements were already known by Muslims 1400 years ago.SpinoRaptor24

It just begs the question of how the Prophet (peace be upon him) managed to concoct all of this if he wasn't the Messeneger of God as he claimed to be. SpinoRaptor24

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Hadith

Someone got a bit butthurt with my responses isnt it?

Gambler_3

Not at all. If anything, it seems like you are the one who is rather upset, judging by your replies.

What is so difficult about saying that every living thing has water? You drink water, your cattle drinks water, your camel drinks water kinda obvious eh?

Gambler_3

It's just one of the verses in the Quran, which is true. I'm not basing my entire argument on that verse alone.

Not at all. If anything, it seems like you are the one who is rather upset, judging by your replies.

SpinoRaptor24

It's just one of the verses in the Quran, which is true. I'm not basing my entire argument on that verse alone.

SpinoRaptor24

Did you read it? It presented some valid reasons to abstain from Pork. Your article had some highly debatable points. First, the way Muslims slaughter cows is different to the way non muslims slaughter them, as in we slit the throat to remove as much blood from the animal as possible because blood is a proved toxin. Second, the rest of those points were economical issues, not health hazards (apart from that supposed disease, which didn't seem like an epidemic concern).

SpinoRaptor24

Are you trying to say pork is an epidemic concern?

Wait lets get to the point here. Pork is forbidden in the quran and doesnt give a reason. You make up a reason yourself that it is because it is unhealthy. Ok then following this it must be true that if something is halal then it must also not be unhealthy for humans? If there are halal things which are not good for you(tobacco, red bull anyone?) then what is your basis for saying that pork is forbidden because of health issues?

That wasn't the point. Surely if God gave Humans the power to speak then he certainly can do the same with other creations of his.

And I don't have much knowledge on how the Earth was formed. Are you willing to provide some sources?

SpinoRaptor24

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geological_history_of_Earth

No. I'm not misguided. Refrain from making groundless accusations. Those other translations you posted had the same meaning, just a different choice of words. It didn't contradict with the verse I provided.

SpinoRaptor24

Nowhere does it say that it's expanding.

We have made the heavens with Our own hands and We expanded it.

Nowhere does it say that it is "currently" expanding.

We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it. 

When did "sky" start expanding?

With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

God can do anything and it doesnt say that god is actually doing that.

We have built the heavens with Our hands, for We have the power to do so.

lol? Do I need to go furthur? I demand an explanation here of why you couldnt see the obvious conflict in the translations? Are you trolling?

I'm not naive. I have done a lot of research on Islam and the Prophet (peace be upon him) so I would greatly appreciate it if you refrained from making baseless assumptions.

Apart from Aisha, all of the Prophet's wives were widows or divorcees. The reason why he had so many wives was because of political reasons; to help spread Islam, to invite people to Islam and to gain favor of the Arab tribes who were mostly against him.

Throughout the Prophet's (peace be upon him) youth he only married one women, despite the fact that a man's sexuality is at its peak during that period. Polygamy and and divorce were common and easy back then too, yet he didn't marry other women until after his first wife's death.

Most sources I provide regarding Hadiths are from Sahih Bukhari, which many scholars agree is the most credible and reliable Hadith book there is.

SpinoRaptor24

I find it so funny that people actually believe someone married 12 women simultaneously for politcal reasons and not for sex and lust. I mean why deny the sex, party and lust part? I really cant say what I truly think about that opinion as I'll be modded so I guess you are entitled to your opinion. But dont try to present it as some undeniable historical fact as to what a person's "intentions" were cuz it is not provable either way.

Man's sexuality is at it's peak in youth? Do you mean sexual desires are at it's peak? Got some evidence? 

Understand that Mecca and Medinah were some of the harshest lands in the world. Famine and poverty were quite common back then. Again, he had a lot of possessions which he would donate to charity.

Narrated Amr bin Al-Harith:
(The brother of the wife of Allah's Apostle. Juwaira bint Al-Harith) When Allah's Apostle died, he did not leave any Dirham or Dinar (i.e. money), a slave or a slave woman or anything else except his white mule, his arms and a piece of land which he had given in charity. (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 51, Number 2)

Does that sound like a King to you?

SpinoRaptor24

They most certainly do have a Male sexuality. Only a selected few can reproduce asexually, but these still belong to the same species.

SpinoRaptor24

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/135/3499/212

They had no intention of hiding it because they didn't hide it from anyone. They were simply there, in the Quran, which devout Muslims recited. I never implied that they hid it from the rest of the world. Anyone is free to read the Quran.

SpinoRaptor24

Because quran doesnt actually have that knowledge and is only interpreted as such when a discovery is made. It seems a very powerful argument and I hung onto it for a long time before I became an ex-muslim. The arguments in religion are presented by some very intelligent people who modify and improve them with time, it takes some deep looking into the matter to know that their utterly biased interpretations is a big deception.

That is an extremely anti Islamic site. And those aren't contradictions. I could try answering them to the best of my knowledge. (PM me if you want)

SpinoRaptor24

Btw that site always uses authentic hadith references and authentic translations of the quran to prove their points so it's not exactly as biased as you may think at first.

Haha, awesome. Muslim evolution/creation debate GO.

I have an agressive s.tyle of online debating, it's nothing personal with you.Gambler_3

You won't do yourself any favors if you're going to aggravate people with your sarcastic and condescending replies. Show politeness please.

Whoever said everything in the quran is false? I showed you there's nothing significant about that verse so I am not sure why you would use it as even part of an argument. Gambler_3

It's only one of the 6236 verses in the Quran. I was only trying to prove a point. As I stated before, my argument isn't based on that verse alone. So we'll leave it at that.

Your article has no debatable points then? Can you then give me a credible source like a WHO report on pork?

Are you trying to say pork is an epidemic concern?

Wait lets get to the point here. Pork is forbidden in the quran and doesnt give a reason. You make up a reason yourself that it is because it is unhealthy. Ok then following this it must be true that if something is halal then it must also not be unhealthy for humans? If there are halal things which are not good for you(tobacco, red bull anyone?) then what is your basis for saying that pork is forbidden because of health issues?

Gambler_3

"Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been invoked a name other than that of Allah". (Noble Quran 5:3)

It's pretty well known that Pork has very little muscle building material and contains an excess of fat, causing more cholesterol to build up in blood vessels. And among that, it also contains far more diseases than other types of meat, such as various types of dangerous tapeworms ( Trichinella Spiratis, Taenia Solium)

And I didn't "make up" these reason either. There are plenty of articles out there that state why Pork is unhealthy.

And intoxicants are already addressed in the Quran:

"They ask you (O Muhammad) about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: 'In both of them there is a great wrong and a means of (some) profit for men; but their sin is greater than their profit.'"
(Noble Quran 2:219)

O you who believe! Intoxicants and games of chance, and idolatrous practices, and the divining of the future are but a loathsome evil of Satan's doing: shun it, then, so that you might attain to a happy state! By means of intoxicants and games of chance Satan seeks only to sow enmity and hatred among you, and to turn you away from the remembrance of God and from prayer. Will you not then desist?"
(Noble Quran al-Ma'idah 90-91.)

I think this pretty much refers to Tobacco and Alcohol, as both of those are known to be harmful to the body. Though I don't understand why you insist on eating Pork when the Quran has clearly forbidden and why you have to question it. Do you also question instruction manuals when they tell you what to and what not to do when setting up something?

Instruction manual: "To activate this Computer, put power cable in the power outlet."
You: "Why do I have to do that? Why didn't it give me a good reason to do so? Why can't I just put the cable in the sink? Who is this book to tell me what to do?"

But I thought all living things were made of water? Is the whole universe made of water then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geological_history_of_Earth

Gambler_3

I never said that. Thank you for the link, I'll read it when I have the time.

lol? Do I need to go furthur? I demand an explanation here of why you couldnt see the obvious conflict in the translations? Are you trolling? Gambler_3

No I am not. None of those verses conflicted with the original verse I put up. Again, many of those have the same meaning, just a different choice of words.

That is all your belief. I believe he didnt marry again cuz khadija was very rich and influential and he needed her on his side, obviously it was only in his own interests to not upset her.

I find it so funny that people actually believe someone married 12 women simultaneously for politcal reasons and not for sex and lust. I mean why deny the sex, party and lust part? I really cant say what I truly think about that opinion as I'll be modded so I guess you are entitled to your opinion. But dont try to present it as some undeniable historical fact as to what a person's "intentions" were cuz it is not provable either way.

Man's sexuality is at it's peak in youth? Do you mean sexual desires are at it's peak? Got some evidence? 

Gambler_3

You dismiss my statements because it's "only my belief" and then post up your opinion while touting it as a fact?

First, he didn't marry them simultaneously. All minus one of his wives were either widows or divorcees. If he truly was this "lustful and sexual" man that you're trying to portray him as he would've easily married young virgins, yet he didn't. That alone should tell you something. 

 

Man's sexuality is at it's peak in youth? Do you mean sexual desires are at it's peak? Got some evidence? 

Gambler_3

Joke? Or are you serious? It's called Puberty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty

He had all the riches he wanted once he had conquered macca. Just because he decided to live a moderate life doesnt mean he was poor, someone who has the oppurtunity is NOT poor.

Gambler_3

He most certainly was a poor person, often giving most of his possessions to the needy. Understand that times were tough back then. Famine, illness and poverty were all too common. Even when he was offered riches, he still chose poverty:

"...The Prophet smiled again. When I saw him smiling, I sat down and cast a glance at the room, and by Allah, I couldn't see anything of importance but three hides. I said (to Allah's Apostle) "Invoke Allah to make your followers prosperous for the Persians and the Byzantines have been made prosperous and given worldly luxuries, though they do not worship Allah?' The Prophet was leaning then (and on hearing my speech he sat straight) and said, 'O Ibn Al-Khatttab! Do you have any doubt (that the Hereafter is better than this world)? These people have been given rewards of their good deeds in this world only.'Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 648 

 

No there are species with all female population. They dont need males at all thus quran proven wrong.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/135/3499/212

Gambler_3

No. According to this rather interesting article, some biologists examined the lizards and saw the despite that fact that they were all female, there were still some who exhibited male like characteristics (including mating). So yes, the lizards do come in pairs.

Read it here.

 

You didnt get the point. If the quran as people claim has all that scientific knowledge then why werent those discoveries made through the quran? If the quran knew that sun doesnt circle the earth then why did it actually took years of scientific research to show that? Why werent muslims claiming all that scientific knowledge before those discoveries were made?

Gambler_3

I don't know much regarding this issue you've presented. I don't speak for the entire Muslim community.

If you're having doubts, read some of these scientific consistencies with the Quran.

There are other things as well which cause only fat and no muscle. Tobacco does not intoxicate you so it is not haram sorry.

Because I dont consider quran to be some authority? When I read an instruction manual, I acknowledge it to have a superior knowledge of how to use the product than me. Quran does not superior have knowledge than me on how to live a life.

The verses were clearly in conflict, some said "heaven" which you interpreted as universe and some said "sky" which cant really be interpreted as anything else. Then some verses are using the past tense and some are using the present, clear conflict, I dont understand why you are hell bent on ignoring it.

By simulateously I meant he had more than 10 wives AT A TIME.

What does puberty has to do with what you said? Does man's sexuality decrease with old age? The wiki article never says such a thing....

Having male like characteristics doesnt prove anything and females mate as well. Quran remains in error. Your PDF document isnt opening....

Tobacco does not intoxicate you so it is not haram sorry.

Gambler_3

It's forbidden because it's unhealthy; intoxication isn't the reason.

"And do not kill yourselves; indeed, Allah is ever Merciful to you. (4:29)" 

This verse means, among other things, that doing anything deliberately that can cause you to die is prohibited. Of course, smoking gives you lung cancer, which causes you to die. Therefore, smoking is forbidden.

Here's another verse:

And do not be cast into ruin by your own hands.... (2:195)

I think that verse speaks for itself. Smoking is a harmful activity that is done consciously, so by this verse smoking is forbidden.

You can also prove that smoking is prohibited with an axiom in Islamic law: anything that has more negative effects than positive effects is considered forbidden. Smoking clearly has only a few benefits, which are overshadowed by its harmful long-term effects. Therefore, smoking is forbidden.

On top of that, smoking is a waste of money, and wasting money is clearly prohibited in the Qur'an and Sunnah.

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

Tobacco does not intoxicate you so it is not haram sorry.

ghoklebutter

It's forbidden because it's unhealthy; intoxication isn't the reason.

"And do not kill yourselves; indeed, Allah is ever Merciful to you. (4:29)" 

This verse means, among other things, that doing anything deliberately that can cause you to die is prohibited. Of course, smoking gives you lung cancer, which causes you to die. Therefore, smoking is forbidden.

Here's another verse:

And do not be cast into ruin by your own hands.... (2:195)

I think that verse speaks for itself. Smoking is a harmful activity that is done consciously, so by this verse smoking is forbidden.

You can also prove that smoking is prohibited with an axiom in Islamic law: anything that has more negative effects than positive effects is considered forbidden. Smoking clearly has only a few benefits, which are overshadowed by its harmful long-term effects. Therefore, smoking is forbidden.

On top of that, smoking is a waste of money, and wasting money is clearly prohibited in the Qur'an and Sunnah.

That second verse is like an advice, it doesnt prohibit anything. Going into the streets and breathing the polluted envirnonment can give you cancer as well. Cars have got to be forbidden as well then?:lol: Oh no basically life itself is forbidden:o cuz in todays world it's practically impossible to be safe from cancer.

Ya smoking has more negative effects but how does that make it forbidden? And if a smoker were forced to quit then for him the benefits may actually be far less than the drawbacks, some people just cant quit it ever.

lol who are you to say it's a waste of money? There arent that many things that I enjoy more than my pack of ciggarretes.:|

I have been smoking for 7 years, why am I not dead?:shock:

That second verse is like an advice, it doesnt prohibit anything. Going into the streets and breathing the polluted envirnonment can give you cancer as well. Cars have got to be forbidden as well then?:lol: Oh no basically life itself is forbidden:o cuz in todays world it's practically impossible to be safe from cancer.

Ya smoking has more negative effects but how does that make it forbidden? And if a smoker were forced to quit then for him the benefits may actually be far less than the drawbacks, some people just cant quit it ever.

lol who are you to say it's a waste of money? There arent that many things that I enjoy more than my pack of ciggarretes.:|

Gambler_3

Smoking has long-term effects that can kill you. Key word: long-term.

The verse implies that you should not do anything deliberately that can cause you to die. And smoking has no real benefits (no need to flame me; that's just my opinion), unlike the things you mentioned, which a lot of people use as necessities. 

If one cannot get rid of the habit of smoking--after having tried to do so--,then he there is no blame on him. The negative effects of quiting smoking are only temporary, so that doesn't matter.

As for your last point: I'm not going to tell you how to live your life. You're not a Muslim anyway.

Smoking has long-term effects that can kill you. Key word: long-term.

ghoklebutter

Sugar kills diabetic patients faster than smoking will ever kill anyone. A very huge number of older people suffer from diabetics. It is only today that we can actually monitor sugar levels, previously people didnt know and those who believed in the quran would think that there's nothing wrong since sugar is halal.:lol:

Overconsumption of red bull will kill you faster than over smoking. I can think of a few things as well but it's enough. Quran's laws of what to eat and what not to have absolutely nothing to do with giving people a healthy diet.

You know medicines have alcohol, the same ingredient which is loathed upon among muslims is used to cure you. Seriously try to think about the irony....

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

Smoking has long-term effects that can kill you. Key word: long-term.

Gambler_3

Sugar kills diabetic patients faster than smoking will ever kill anyone. A very huge number of older people suffer from diabetics. It is only today that we can actually monitor sugar levels, previously people didnt know and those who believed in the quran would think that there's nothing wrong since sugar is halal.:lol:

Overconsumption of red bull will kill you faster than over smoking. I can think of a few things as well but it's enough. Quran's laws of what to eat and what not to have absolutely nothing to do with giving people a healthy diet.

You know medicines have alcohol, the same ingredient which is loathed upon among muslims is used to cure you. Seriously try to think about the irony....

It doesn't matter. You know very well that Tobacco is a harmful substance. Allah forbids you to ingest something that is harmful to your body. You don't smoke because you're sick, you smoke for your own enjoyment.

You don't drink Red Bull because you're sick, you do it for your own pleasure. I don't understand how anyone can spin this into "well it's not mentioned specifically in the Quran, so I guess it's ok". It's clear in the above verse that Allah forbids you to harm yourself. Smoking tobacco harms your body, therefore it is forbidden.

Over-consumption of any liquid will kill you (including water). As far as I know, it takes around 12 cans of Red Bull a day to kill you. So unless you're drinking 12 cans of red bull (which means you're not mentally straight) you should be fine (personally I wouldn't even drink one, considering all the crap they put in it and all the stories I've heard).

Again, not everyone in the world is a diabetic. Sugar is good for you. The Prophet (peace be upon him) mentioned that Allah has made the Halal and the Haram clear to you in the Quran, but between there are some things that are not mentioned out of Allah's mercy. Therefore, if you're having doubts about something, it's best that you stay away from them.

On the authority of Abu Hurairah, who said : I heared the messenger of Allah say :

"What I have forbidden to you, avoid; what I have ordered you [to do], do as much of it as you can. It was only their excessive questioning and their disagreeing with their prophets that destroyed those who were before you."

related by Bukhari and Muslim

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

Smoking has long-term effects that can kill you. Key word: long-term.

Gambler_3

Sugar kills diabetic patients faster than smoking will ever kill anyone. A very huge number of older people suffer from diabetics. It is only today that we can actually monitor sugar levels, previously people didnt know and those who believed in the quran would think that there's nothing wrong since sugar is halal.:lol:

If one is in a condition such that ingesting certain things may be harmful, then said things are impermissible.

Overconsumption of red bull will kill you faster than over smoking. I can think of a few things as well but it's enough. Quran's laws of what to eat and what not to have absolutely nothing to do with giving people a healthy diet.

You know medicines have alcohol, the same ingredient which is loathed upon among muslims is used to cure you. Seriously try to think about the irony....

I agree, and i know a lot of people who are smoking that haven't died yet. All that matters, however, is that smoking is clearly unhealthy. And if it doesn't kill you, it will surely lower your lifespan. That's the reason tobbaco is forbidden.

Overconsumption of anything will harm you. However, that doesn't mean smoking is okay, especially since it can take a toll on one's life even if one smokes in "moderation".

Medicine containing alcohol is permissible so long as it's absolutely necessary. That's because of another axiom in Islam: That which is fobidden may be allowed in tight circumstances (e.g. drinking alcohol when there is no other drink available to quench one's thirst).

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"][QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

Smoking has long-term effects that can kill you. Key word: long-term.

ghoklebutter

Sugar kills diabetic patients faster than smoking will ever kill anyone. A very huge number of older people suffer from diabetics. It is only today that we can actually monitor sugar levels, previously people didnt know and those who believed in the quran would think that there's nothing wrong since sugar is halal.:lol:

If one is in a condition such that ingesting certain things may be harmful, then said things are impermissible.

Overconsumption of red bull will kill you faster than over smoking. I can think of a few things as well but it's enough. Quran's laws of what to eat and what not to have absolutely nothing to do with giving people a healthy diet.

You know medicines have alcohol, the same ingredient which is loathed upon among muslims is used to cure you. Seriously try to think about the irony....

I agree, and i know a lot of people who are smoking that haven't died yet. All that matters, however, is that smoking is clearly unhealthy. And if it doesn't kill you, it will surely lower your lifespan. That's the reason tobbaco is forbidden.

Overconsumption of anything will harm you. However, that doesn't mean smoking is okay, especially since it can take a toll on one's life even if one smokes in "moderation".

Medicine containing alcohol is permissible so long as it's absolutely necessary. That's because of another axiom in Islam: That which is fobidden may be allowed in tight circumstances (e.g. drinking alcohol when there is no other drink available to quench one's thirst).

This is absolutely true. You're allowed to eat Pork if it's absolutely necessary (eg. starving to death). Otherwise , stay away from it.

This is absolutely true. You're allowed to eat Pork if it's absolutely necessary (eg. starving to death). Otherwise , stay away from it.SpinoRaptor24

The countless billions of healthy people that have and do eat pork are enough for me to to think what you say is complete rubbish (about pork, that is). In the UK, we've had a greater threat of disease from cows and sheep (via BSE and foot and mouth disease). I can't see why you try and justify outmoded thinking about food standards, disease, safety and hygene while dressing them up in some sort of theological mystique. It's far better to really understand the nature of nutrition and disease, rather than blind yourself to the obvious safety of pork, based on your particular 1600 year-old writings.

We share carbon with all other life forms on Earth. Is that particularly relevent to you? Its as relevent to me as your assertion that since all us living things process water, so have dna, therefore pigs are like people (or however your connecting those disparate things together goes). Would one reason that pigs are used for transplant research be that we don't tend to eat mokeys, so pigs have a far more plentiful availability (because of them being farmed for human consumption), perhaps?

Aren't you being a hypocrite, having a dirty pig organ inside you? Wouldn't you fear the same infection as from eating pig? After all it would be uncooked!

The countless billions of healthy people that have and do eat pork are enough for me to to think what you say is complete rubbish (about pork, that is). In the UK, we've had a greater threat of disease from cows and sheep (via BSE and foot and mouth disease).

RationalAtheist

Billions of healthy people? You mean the overwhelming number of obese people in the western world where eating Pork is a norm. Fact: America, Australia and the UK are some of the most overweight countries in the world. Obesity is a severe problem here in Australia. Again, the way you slaughter cows and sheep is different to the way Muslims slaughter them (you don't drain the blood from the meat. Blood is a toxin and prime area for bacterial formation, so it's reasonable to see why your meat would be more diseased)

I can't see why you try and justify outmoded thinking about food standards, disease, safety and hygene while dressing them up in some sort of theological mystique. It's far better to really understand the nature of nutrition and disease, rather than blind yourself to the obvious safety of pork, based on your particular 1600 year-old writings.

RationalAtheist

I've already provided proof as to why Pork is unhygienic. See my previous article I posted.

  

Aren't you being a hypocrite, having a dirty pig organ inside you? Wouldn't you fear the same infection as from eating pig? After all it would be uncooked!

 RationalAtheist

If it's necessary for my survival, then yes I would eat pork and use Pig organs for transplant. Islam most definitely allows it. The Prophet (peace be upon him) advised people not to burden themselves with Religion.

But it's not the case here. You eat pork for your own pleasure, not for your survival. There are plenty of other types of meat for you to consume. It's not like Pork is the only meat in the world.

It doesn't matter. You know very well that Tobacco is a harmful substance. Allah forbids you to ingest something that is harmful to your body. You don't smoke because you're sick, you smoke for your own enjoyment.

You don't drink Red Bull because you're sick, you do it for your own pleasure. I don't understand how anyone can spin this into "well it's not mentioned specifically in the Quran, so I guess it's ok". It's clear in the above verse that Allah forbids you to harm yourself. Smoking tobacco harms your body, therefore it is forbidden.

Over-consumption of any liquid will kill you (including water). As far as I know, it takes around 12 cans of Red Bull a day to kill you. So unless you're drinking 12 cans of red bull (which means you're not mentally straight) you should be fine (personally I wouldn't even drink one, considering all the crap they put in it and all the stories I've heard).

Again, not everyone in the world is a diabetic. Sugar is good for you. The Prophet (peace be upon him) mentioned that Allah has made the Halal and the Haram clear to you in the Quran, but between there are some things that are not mentioned out of Allah's mercy. Therefore, if you're having doubts about something, it's best that you stay away from them.

On the authority of Abu Hurairah, who said : I heared the messenger of Allah say :

"What I have forbidden to you, avoid; what I have ordered you [to do], do as much of it as you can. It was only their excessive questioning and their disagreeing with their prophets that destroyed those who were before you."

related by Bukhari and Muslim

SpinoRaptor24

By over consumption I mean drinking a litre a day and not 12.:|

Tell that to the 220 million people who suffer from it. Did you just say sugar is good? You are complaining about obesity and then praise the one prime ingredient which causes it.:lol:

Fact: America, Australia and the UK are some of the most overweight countries in the world.SpinoRaptor24

Care to give evidence that these countries are more overweight then a country which doesnt eat pork AND has a similar standard of living?

Why do these countries have some of the highest age of expentency in the world? Why dont muslim countries have the highest since they have the ALMIGHTY food guide in the quran.:shock:

I've already provided proof as to why Pork is unhygienic. See my previous article I posted.

SpinoRaptor24

http://www.aicr.org/site/PageServer?pagename=recommendations_05_red_meat

I guess hinduism must be the right religion as it prohibits all sorts of meat.:shock:

If it's necessary for my survival, then yes I would eat pork and use Pig organs for transplant. Islam most definitely allows it. The Prophet (peace be upon him) advised people not to burden themselves with Religion.

But it's not the case here. You eat pork for your own pleasure, not for your survival. There are plenty of other types of meat for you to consume. It's not like Pork is the only meat in the world.

SpinoRaptor24

Are you even aware about the status of the pig among muslims? They'll much rather put animal feces in their bodies to survive than a pig organ.Gambler_3

It doesn't matter what its status is; if it's a matter of life and death, it's okay to use pig organs.