Doubts

They affect every area of our life. Not everything one says/does can leave the person with certainty that he/she is correct. Have you ever had any serious doubts about whatever it is that you do/don't believe? how did you deal with those doubts?

Recently I had a heated argument with a close friend of mine that ended really bad. Something was said that shook me to the core; and I didn't know whether to be angry or to cry. I had thought about killing myself, but I was confronted by thoughts about the abrahamic realm of Hell. Normally the concept of hell has no dominion over me because I see it as a primitve myth, but for a small period of time I couldn't set my mind off of fear of that place. I couldn't fight off those images manually, so I did some other things to take my mind off of it.

I would like this to be a thread about experiences like that. Do you guys have any similar stories in which you went through a period of doubt?

A few years ago I constantly wondered whether or not there was a God.  I'd lay awake at night hours each night pondering whether there was a God, whether we could trust our senses, how to make sense of various contradictions in my mind, etc.  At that point in my life I would probably be considered some weird mix between a theistic evolutionist, an agnostic, and a Christian.  I had accepted the resurrection of Christ but had a Naturalistic view of everything else within Scripture.

Since that time in my life I have adapted my beliefs, changed them, and have made them concrete.  While I will certainly continue changing some views, I am certain of certain things such as the authority of Scripture, the deity and resurrection of Christ, the central message of the Gospel, etc.

These days I no longer lay awake at night wondering if there is a God but rather, I lay awake at night wondering how I might share said God.

Well my mind works through alot of skepticism nowadays. Always about something or other. I've stopped doubting atheism in general, though. I'm quite concrete in my belief that no currently existing belief system fits what I know, and that will not change in the future. Maybe someday logic, proof, and emotion will coincide around a new spiritual being we somehow haven't yet concieved, but I have a feeling I will find a way to doubt that also, and revert to atheism.

I'm not sure it is physically possible for me to accept a spiritual belief. :P

When it comes to religion, my mind is set. I rarely have doubts. Of course, it was my doubt that made me an atheist in the first place, but once I became comfortable with atheism, I no longer had doubts.Genetic_Code

As for "fear" well the process of death is enough of a fear for me. Heck leave death there are so many other terrible things that can happen to you in life, there is already so much to fear in this life for me to bother with what happens afterward.

As a finite being in the real of space-time, I would hope you would be doubting at points in your life. If you didn't doubt, there'd be something terribly wrong with you. Even Jesus himself needed some sort of reassurance (and by proxy, some sort of doubt), which is why he constantly prayed. 

The issue you faced is what happens when the currently accepted form of hedonism in today's world is faced with reality. I would suppose that for most of your life, whether events have been tragic or joyful, you've tried to keep your life physically (and mentally) pleasurable. Confronted with the very reality of death, however, any previous notion that you had during your hedonistic lifestyIe was thrown away to be replaced by superstition (the concept itself may not be superstitious, but your acceptance is probably based on superstition i.e your own credulous belief, independent on the reality (or non-reality) of the existence of Hell). I'm sorry to hear that you went through such an event, and I only hope your friend didn't wish anything evil on you. It's bad enough pushing you to the edge like that. But I digress.

Essentially yes, everyone has doubts. It's natural. As a Catholic steeped deep in the faith, even so much as to agree and adore sociology, psychology, and physics (Astronomy is one of the most awesome pursuits of knowledge, ever), sometimes I just have to wonder if what I believe really is worthwhile or even true.

Maybe doubts are cosmic bar exams that a mandatory in order to get to the next stage in life. Who knows :P 

I don't think anyone who has actually seriously contemplated things has not experienced doubts about what they believe to be true about the world.  In fact, I would say that there are only two states that a person can possibly exist in: a state of ignorance and/or denial, or a state of uncertainty.  I think it's one of those things that a person just has to learn to live with.  We can't know everything there is to know, so as a result there will always be that giant elephant in the room of things we don't know.

Skepticism defines the nature of enquiry for me. I think it is healthy to doubt.

The Christian version of "hell" has little bearing on my thinking, since I've had decades of atheist free-thinking and see all faiths as equally unjustified and illogical, so all forms of post-death analysis are equally invalid to me.

Its easy for me to retain my moral compass without being bound by fear. Rather continually questioning my actions and motives makes for a seemingly more objective stance.

I don't think anyone who has actually seriously contemplated things has not experienced doubts about what they believe to be true about the world.  In fact, I would say that there are only two states that a person can possibly exist in: a state of ignorance and/or denial, or a state of uncertainty.  I think it's one of those things that a person just has to learn to live with.  We can't know everything there is to know, so as a result there will always be that giant elephant in the room of things we don't know.

GabuEx

I heavily agree with you here.  However, I'd like to add that there can be varying degrees of gray between those two states you mention.  One can easily take a middle ground between the two just as much as a person can go into an extreme state of uncertainty/denial.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I don't think anyone who has actually seriously contemplated things has not experienced doubts about what they believe to be true about the world. In fact, I would say that there are only two states that a person can possibly exist in: a state of ignorance and/or denial, or a state of uncertainty. I think it's one of those things that a person just has to learn to live with. We can't know everything there is to know, so as a result there will always be that giant elephant in the room of things we don't know.

mindstorm

I heavily agree with you here. However, I'd like to add that there can be varying degrees of gray between those two states you mention. One can easily take a middle ground between the two just as much as a person can go into an extreme state of uncertainty/denial.

Aren't these two states exclusive and therefore polar? Surely its either/or and not both!

There are degrees of uncertainty, but you're still uncertain. Acceptance means no doubt at all, or enforced ignorance/rejection of uncertainty. I see your "middle gound" more as denial.

Aren't these two states exclusive and therefore polar? Surely its either/or and not both!

There are degrees of uncertainty, but you're still uncertain. Acceptance means no doubt at all, or enforced ignorance/rejection of uncertainty. I see your "middle gound" more as denial.

 

 

RationalAtheist

I disagree actually.  For example, I'm certain of my beliefs enough to have gone through 9 semesters of schooling in response to them and am only about halfway finished.  Do I still seek to understand these beliefs and make certain that they are still valid?  Of course.  Do I believe my understanding of such things are still perfect? No.  Do I have enough belief to devote my entire life to the subject?  Yes.

Personally I believe I take a middle road. At the least, it certainly is my intention to neither be arrogant nor ignorant.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Aren't these two states exclusive and therefore polar? Surely its either/or and not both!

There are degrees of uncertainty, but you're still uncertain. Acceptance means no doubt at all, or enforced ignorance/rejection of uncertainty. I see your "middle gound" more as denial.

mindstorm

I disagree actually. For example, I'm certain of my beliefs enough to have gone through 9 semesters of schooling in response to them and am only about halfway finished. Do I still seek to understand these beliefs and make certain that they are still valid? Of course. Do I believe my understanding of such things are still perfect? No. Do I have enough belief to devote my entire life to the subject? Yes.

Personally I believe I take a middle road. At the least, it certainly is my intention to neither be arrogant nor ignorant.

Are you certain of your core beliefs that you'd take 9 semesters to enforce them? ... Certainty - No doubt.

Do you still seek to find more evidence to support your core belief (i.e. more guided religious study) ... Certainty - No doubt.

Do you think you have a perfect understanding? ... Certainty - No doubt that you disbelieve this statement.

Are you devoting your entire life to seeking more support for your core belief? ... Certainty - No doubt.

I think the doubts you have are about how your view from scripture fits with the reality you now find yourself in. I think the first statement of yours is the important one here and I can't see how you do have certainty about it, given your previous disclosures about being "emergent". Also, the second statement does nto follow. You would more logically try and find evidence to disprove your view, so as to ensure your view is robust.

I certainly see doubt as part of emergent Christianity; if not about its core values, then about the relevence and meaning of its doctrine. You've also had some certainty over creationism if I remember well, but are now rather more obtuse over its meaning. Is there still doubt over this stuff?

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

I disagree actually. For example, I'm certain of my beliefs enough to have gone through 9 semesters of schooling in response to them and am only about halfway finished. Do I still seek to understand these beliefs and make certain that they are still valid? Of course. Do I believe my understanding of such things are still perfect? No. Do I have enough belief to devote my entire life to the subject? Yes.

Personally I believe I take a middle road. At the least, it certainly is my intention to neither be arrogant nor ignorant.

RationalAtheist

Are you certain of your core beliefs that you'd take 9 semesters to enforce them? ... Certainty - No doubt.

I am not going through so much schooling to reinforce my already set beliefs but to learn.  If this were not the case then why has my opinion about many matters changed over the years?

Do you still seek to find more evidence to support your core belief (i.e. more guided religious study) ... Certainty - No doubt.

RationalAtheist

I do continue to seek evidence but I also try to examine evidence that might point otherwise.  I do not study for the sole purpose of making my already set understanding stronger, I study to find the strongest argument available.

 

Do you think you have a perfect understanding? ... Certainty - No doubt that you disbelieve this statement.

RationalAtheist

I only claim to understand the core message of Scripture to a strong degree.  Many of the details I am less certain of.  One of the many major issues I have with many Protestant churches is that they so quickly divide over secondary issues.  Of those issues, I do not claim to have a perfect understanding but I do still have views on those subjects.

 

Are you devoting your entire life to seeking more support for your core belief? ... Certainty - No doubt.

RationalAtheist

Not exactly.  I have enough certainty to continue despite whatever doubt I might have.  I don't devote my life to supporting my core belief but I devote my life to spreading the message that I think to be true.  Could I be wrong? Yes.

 

I think the doubts you have are about how your view from scripture fits with the reality you now find yourself in. I think the first statement of yours is the important one here and I can't see how you do have certainty about it, given your previous disclosures about being "emergent". Also, the second statement does nto follow. You would more logically try and find evidence to disprove your view, so as to ensure your view is robust.

I certainly see doubt as part of emergent Christianity; if not about its core values, then about the relevence and meaning of its doctrine. You've also had some certainty over creationism if I remember well, but are now rather more obtuse over its meaning. Is there still doubt over this stuff?

RationalAtheist

I'm technically not of the Emergent Church, I merely sympathize with the struggles of those who are.  They rightly see many of the faults within the Western church but they often respond to it wrongly.  It is not my goal to either have a modern mindset or a post-modern mindset but the mindset of Christ according to Scripture.  It is my goal to not let such cultural understandings of such things warp my thinking but let Scripture alone.  Is there a chance of Scripture being wrong? Certainly.  Do I find more difficulty believing it might be wrong the more I seek to let the Scriptures change my worldview? Certainly.

Should Christians (and everyone else for that matter) question their beliefs in an effort to seek the truth? Yes.  Does this mean they should live in a constant state of doubt?  Not at all.

(Why am I asking so many questions in this post in order to get my points across? I don't know. :P )

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]

I disagree actually. For example, I'm certain of my beliefs enough to have gone through 9 semesters of schooling in response to them and am only about halfway finished. Do I still seek to understand these beliefs and make certain that they are still valid? Of course. Do I believe my understanding of such things are still perfect? No. Do I have enough belief to devote my entire life to the subject? Yes.

Personally I believe I take a middle road. At the least, it certainly is my intention to neither be arrogant nor ignorant.

mindstorm

Are you certain of your core beliefs that you'd take 9 semesters to enforce them? ... Certainty - No doubt.

I am not going through so much schooling to reinforce my already set beliefs but to learn. If this were not the case then why has my opinion about many matters changed over the years?

You may recall I mentioned this first item was the only real item I thought you did doubt, rather than were certain about (as you wrote). I wholeheartedly agree with your argument here - positioning your opinions in line with "established" and mainstream theology.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Do you still seek to find more evidence to support your core belief (i.e. more guided religious study) ... Certainty - No doubt.

mindstorm

I do continue to seek evidence but I also try to examine evidence that might point otherwise. I do not study for the sole purpose of making my already set understanding stronger, I study to find the strongest argument available.

Your "need" is in no doubt - it is certain. If your statement about other faiths (and none) is true, why not study other religions with as great a focus as Christianity? I 've noticed you "come out" into society from a life of particular Christianv seminarial study, but not by your choice, since I recall you wanted to go straight into preaching.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Do you think you have a perfect understanding? ... Certainty - No doubt that you disbelieve this statement.

mindstorm

I only claim to understand the core message of Scripture to a strong degree. Many of the details I am less certain of. One of the many major issues I have with many Protestant churches is that they so quickly divide over secondary issues. Of those issues, I do not claim to have a perfect understanding but I do still have views on those subjects.

So this is more agreement with me in that you don't think that you do have a perfect understanding?

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Are you devoting your entire life to seeking more support for your core belief? ... Certainty - No doubt.

mindstorm

Not exactly. I have enough certainty to continue despite whatever doubt I might have. I don't devote my life to supporting my core belief but I devote my life to spreading the message that I think to be true. Could I be wrong? Yes.

There is no doubt from me that you devote your life to this extent. Doubts over your core beliefs go back to statement #1, that I found doubtful myself!

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I think the doubts you have are about how your view from scripture fits with the reality you now find yourself in. I think the first statement of yours is the important one here and I can't see how you do have certainty about it, given your previous disclosures about being "emergent". Also, the second statement does nto follow. You would more logically try and find evidence to disprove your view, so as to ensure your view is robust.

I certainly see doubt as part of emergent Christianity; if not about its core values, then about the relevence and meaning of its doctrine. You've also had some certainty over creationism if I remember well, but are now rather more obtuse over its meaning. Is there still doubt over this stuff?

mindstorm

I'm technically not of the Emergent Church, I merely sympathize with the struggles of those who are. They rightly see many of the faults within the Western church but they often respond to it wrongly. It is not my goal to either have a modern mindset or a post-modern mindset but the mindset of Christ according to Scripture. It is my goal to not let such cultural understandings of such things warp my thinking but let Scripture alone. Is there a chance of Scripture being wrong? Certainly. Do I find more difficulty believing it might be wrong the more I seek to let the Scriptures change my worldview? Certainly.

Should Christians (and everyone else for that matter) question their beliefs in an effort to seek the truth? Yes. Does this mean they should live in a constant state of doubt? Not at all.

(Why am I asking so many questions in this post in order to get my points across? I don't know. :P )

I think we are getting really of track here. Isn't this about the grey area (if there is one) between certainty and doubt. If its your goal not to let your cultural understanding warp your scriptural understanding, then how do you know that you're not really enforcing an out-dated scriptural understanding over your real-life cultural understanding.

How can you really question the truth if you already know the answer is true? Doubt is the prime motivator for questioning. I like you bringing up "states" of doubt, since people don't often wrestle with doubt all the time - they can ignore it or reject it.

The doubt you do have over the various core and supplimentary beliefs associated with Christianity is natural. I think it is also quite natural to find solace and comfort in a single area of study while rejecting all others. Doubt starts coming in when you open yourself up to equally possible alternatives.

Questioning is a most excellent way of registering your doubt.