DonExodus2 (From you toobs)

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Frattracide

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#1 Frattracide
Member since 2005 • 5395 Posts

Anyone familiar with this guy's videos? He has a biology background and does a lot of counter YEC stuff. HIs stuff tends to be more educational than insulting albeit a bit dry. I can honestly say I learned a lot form his videos. 

 

Anyway, the reason I bring this up is because he has accepted a challenge to debate a creationist (this guy.) It probably won't be very sporting but I am eager to see the debate. It is supposed to happen on blog TV on Sunday.

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domatron23

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#2 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts

Anyone familiar with this guy's videos? He has a biology background and does a lot of counter YEC stuff. HIs stuff tends to be more educational than insulting albeit a bit dry. I can honestly say I learned a lot form his videos. 

 

Anyway, the reason I bring this up is because he has accepted a challenge to debate a creationist (this guy.) It probably won't be very sporting but I am eager to see the debate. It is supposed to happen on blog TV on Sunday.

Details 

Frattracide

Yeah I'm a big fan of Don and he's made several excellent videos (the series on how evolution works being my favourite). Nephilim_Free creeps me the hell out but it'll be good to see him getting stomped. Not too sure how don is on the age of the earth and evidence for the flood.

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deactivated-5a79221380856

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#3 deactivated-5a79221380856
Member since 2007 • 13125 Posts

That sounds interesting. I'll make sure that I try to watch. Anyway, I have a question that I've never seen a creationist asked and pounded on it as an area of concern for evolution, so if anyone can answer it, please do so.

Okay, let first describe the mechanics of evolution. Evolution occurs at conception with a change in alleles, correct? Let's assume that for one species, an animal of an entirely new species is conceived. However, for this new species to live on, it must find a mate, unless it asexually reproduces. That would be rather difficult though, since evolution is based on chance and for there to be two similar organisms of the same new species to be located close to each other and find each other and be sexually attracted with other and deligent enough to go through with the act of reproduction seems too unlikely. The question is, am I right in assuming this or am I missing something here? I did not take this from Answers in Genesis or any other YEC site. I thought of the problem on my own, although I wouldn't be surprised if it can be found elsewhere.

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domatron23

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#4 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts

That sounds interesting. I'll make sure that I try to watch. Anyway, I have a question that I've never seen a creationist asked and pounded on it as an area of concern for evolution, so if anyone can answer it, please do so.

Okay, let first describe the mechanics of evolution. Evolution occurs at conception with a change in alleles, correct? Let's assume that for one species, an animal of an entirely new species is conceived. However, for this new species to live on, it must find a mate, unless it asexually reproduces. That would be rather difficult though, since evolution is based on chance and for there to be two similar organisms of the same new species to be located close to each other and find each other and be sexually attracted with other and deligent enough to go through with the act of reproduction seems too unlikely. The question is, am I right in assuming this or am I missing something here? I did not take this from Answers in Genesis or any other YEC site. I thought of the problem on my own, although I wouldn't be surprised if it can be found elsewhere.

Genetic_Code

Ray Comfort has asked that same question here and frankly it's no better than the banana argument. That is to say it's a really bad, uneducated, ill conceived argument. (Sorry G_C)

The problem is that your scenario involves speciation occuring in one individual and in one generation. If that's the way that it happened then yeah, the new species in question, confined entirely to this one individual, is kind of screwed when it comes to sexual reproduction. That isn't how speciation occurs though, it occurs in a population of many individuals over many successive generations.

So, like you say, evolution occurs at conception with a change alleles. This doesn't happen all at once though. One generation you'll have an individual born with a small but favourable change to their genetic makeup. This isn't enough to make them a new species but it is enough to give them a selective advantage that allows the new trait to become dominant in their population. Given a large enough number of favourable mutations and a large enough succession of generations you will end up with a population of animals that can breed with each other but which are a different species to the population that we stared off with.

If you want a real world example of that look up ring species.

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domatron23

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#5 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts
As for the debate I'm guessing that it's not going to happen. Don and Neph have both uploaded videos stating that the other has altered the conditions (question, medium, moderator) too much and that if they don't accept their mutually contradictory terms the debate will not happen.
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GabuEx

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#6 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts
[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]

That sounds interesting. I'll make sure that I try to watch. Anyway, I have a question that I've never seen a creationist asked and pounded on it as an area of concern for evolution, so if anyone can answer it, please do so.

Okay, let first describe the mechanics of evolution. Evolution occurs at conception with a change in alleles, correct? Let's assume that for one species, an animal of an entirely new species is conceived. However, for this new species to live on, it must find a mate, unless it asexually reproduces. That would be rather difficult though, since evolution is based on chance and for there to be two similar organisms of the same new species to be located close to each other and find each other and be sexually attracted with other and deligent enough to go through with the act of reproduction seems too unlikely. The question is, am I right in assuming this or am I missing something here? I did not take this from Answers in Genesis or any other YEC site. I thought of the problem on my own, although I wouldn't be surprised if it can be found elsewhere.

domatron23

Ray Comfort has asked that same question here and frankly it's no better than the banana argument. That is to say it's a really bad, uneducated, ill conceived argument. (Sorry G_C)

The problem is that your scenario involves speciation occuring in one individual and in one generation. If that's the way that it happened then yeah, the new species in question, confined entirely to this one individual, is kind of screwed when it comes to sexual reproduction. That isn't how speciation occurs though, it occurs in a population of many individuals over many successive generations.

So, like you say, evolution occurs at conception with a change alleles. This doesn't happen all at once though. One generation you'll have an individual born with a small but favourable change to their genetic makeup. This isn't enough to make them a new species but it is enough to give them a selective advantage that allows the new trait to become dominant in their population. Given a large enough number of favourable mutations and a large enough succession of generations you will end up with a population of animals that can breed with each other but which are a different species to the population that we stared off with.

If you want a real world example of that look up ring species.

I think it should also be stated that the question of the exact division between species is one that still has no definitive answer.  Variations within a species are just subspecies, but enough variations and you've got a new species.  At what point is it a new species?  Well, we can't really say for sure.  The line that is often drawn as a general rule of thumb is the ability to interbreed, but lion and tigers can interbreed, and they're definitely not the same species.  So even the concept itself of a new species arising is nebulous and not really something that can be easily determined.  You can't watch two groups of animals accumulate slowly divergent traits, but still being the same species one second, and then the next suddenly exclaim, "Aha!  They are now two separate species!"  It really doesn't work that way.

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RationalAtheist

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#7 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts

What? This from DonExodus2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdSpR6TF3og

Then this, from NephilimFree:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kjzzsaJLk8

Its like a soap opera!

I hope it does go ahead, but I think one of the comments hit the nail on the head: "Mystics are defined by their dishonesty".

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Frattracide

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#8 Frattracide
Member since 2005 • 5395 Posts
How sad that it did not happen. Nephillim free is already claiming victory.
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RationalAtheist

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#9 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts

How sad that it did not happen. Nephillim free is already claiming victory. Frattracide

Its a shame he keeps deleting his videos. Fortunately, others save them for evidence. Here's the latest clip-show of Nephie's crapulence exposed. Should we invite him to join Gamespot?