What IS a hardcore game?

Often people will rip into a game because it isn't hardcore, or will tell people that the game they want to play is too hardcore for them.  These definitions to games tend to be a fluid idea, because opinions differ on what a hardcore game is by definition.  After some thought, I've decided to post my opinions on what a hardcore and what a casual game is.

A hardcore game is a game which demands a lot from the player to get the most out of it.  It provides an experience which is maximized when the player goes above and beyond, and often requires advanced gameplay knowledge to beat.  To beat the game requires a certain degree of skill.  The gameplay experience likewise provides a high level of depth and customizability.  This game type isn't necessarily insanely impossible, but it is fairly hard at least.  Lots of games fall into this category.

Examples of a hardcore game are:

Final Fantasy X: While this game appeals to the masses, there's no question that getting the most out of this game requires work.  With super hard optional bosses, a variety of secrets, some nigh-impossible challenges (avoiding lightning, anyone?), a degree of customization that rewards education, time and practice (like making custom weapons in FFX) and a serious time commitment to fully explore the game, it's hardcore all over.  Interestingly enough, it was very popular, proving that hardcore games can be big successes, too.

Mario 64: This game was HARD to beat.  With a variety of hard levels, secrets, tricks and trial-and-error pull-your-hair-out tasks necessary just to complete the game, it's about as hardcore as it gets.

Ninja Gaiden Sigma: Enough said. 

Galactic Civilizations 2, Super Mario World, Zelda: Majora's Mask, Star Ocean, RB6:V, CIV 4,  Tomb Raider 1, Final Fantasy Tactics, etc... 

Casual games are, however, fairly easy to beat, have relatively intiuitive and simple gameplay mechanics and can be picked up and played by anyone, including people who like games and don't love them.  The fairly good gamer can beat the great majority of the game's aspects.  These games can range from easy to mildly challenging.  It requires a minor to moderate amount of time and effort invested to get pretty much everything out of the main game.  It's definitely beatable.  It's actually harder to find games in the somewhat casual category, despite how much they appeal to people.

Examples of a semi-casual game are:

Halo: Any gamer who's willing to play this game can beat it.  It isn't intentionally designed to be a tough game.  Most every part of the game can be explored by just finishing the main path.  Granted, it has a legendary mode which is pretty hardcore, but the vast majority of people can see most major things this game has to offer with a fair degree of ease (other than multiplayer, which is player against player and not player against game).  It's designed for the average game player, not an intense game player.  Mass appeal comes before game-player demands.  It is in no way a bad game.

Very Casual Games are games a nine year old can play.

Tetris, Wii Sports, etc.

This is all my opinion, but I think it's interesting to consider what a hardcore game is and where to draw the line.  Some games, like Zelda: Majora's Mask are hardcore, but have sold very well.  Is it difficulty to beat, or difficulty to get most of the game's side quests which determine if a game is hardcore?  It definitely isn't someone's excuse to bash a game (other than the obviously super casual games).  Thinking of this also makes me think of what makes a game mature, but that one seems easier: a game whose focus segment is on adults or older teenagers and involve mature themes and mature decisions.

Da Solitaire

Silver Surfer

AVGN agrees, you're hardcore if you play that game.

Bad explanation. GTA is a casual game and Super Smash Bros. Melee is a hardcore game.

Many games are easy to pick up, ala a "nine year old can play", but hard to master. Smash Bros, any 8-16 bit Konami title, and even Wii Sports falls into this category, and that's quite a mixed audience.

Yet GTA fits your description of a hardcore game, yet, there's absolutely no denying it's a casual title.

A casual or hardcore game is defined toward which group they are appealing to, notsomuch how the game plays. Interesting, no?

Tetris is casual?

One game that I sure as heck consider "hardcore" is Jedi Outcast. >_>

Bad explanation. GTA is a casual game and Super Smash Bros. Melee is a hardcore game.

Many games are easy to pick up, ala a "nine year old can play", but hard to master. Smash Bros, any 8-16 bit Konami title, and even Wii Sports falls into this category, and that's quite a mixed audience.

Yet GTA fits your description of a hardcore game, yet, there's absolutely no denying it's a casual title.

A casual or hardcore game is defined toward which group they are appealing to, notsomuch how the game plays. Interesting, no?

NECR0CHILD313

Did you say SSB was a hardcore game..? The same people who play every mario party and pokemon plays that game.. even peope without a gamecube play it. Might as well call halo hardcore

I'd like to think of it more as amazing games that rarely anyone knows about or plays.

Panzer Dragoon for instance? 

[QUOTE="NECR0CHILD313"]

Bad explanation. GTA is a casual game and Super Smash Bros. Melee is a hardcore game.

Many games are easy to pick up, ala a "nine year old can play", but hard to master. Smash Bros, any 8-16 bit Konami title, and even Wii Sports falls into this category, and that's quite a mixed audience.

Yet GTA fits your description of a hardcore game, yet, there's absolutely no denying it's a casual title.

A casual or hardcore game is defined toward which group they are appealing to, notsomuch how the game plays. Interesting, no?

DoctorBunny

Did you say SSB was a hardcore game..? The same people who play every mario party and pokemon plays that game.. 

I think Melee falls into the category of both....

One game that I sure as heck consider "hardcore" is Jedi Outcast. >_>

PannicAtack

Oh I love that game.

Did you say SSB was a hardcore game..? The same people who play every mario party and pokemon plays that game.. even peope without a gamecube play it. Might as well call halo hardcore

DoctorBunny

I think a part of me died a little bit reading that post. Curse you System Wars, you take pieces of my life away every time I log in.

I think the TC's folly is focusing overly on the complication of the game in determining it's appeal. Of course the two are related, but it's definitely not the only factor, or with games like GTA, not a factor at all. I'd say a game is optimal if it's both easy to pick up while incorporating challenging factors, that's game quality, not game appeal.

Tetris is NOT a pure casual game, like the TC states. Tetris may be casual friendly, but along the lines of hardcore, it's more along the lines of a digital cult. I know people that have it programmed on just about everything it can be programmed on, calculators, cell phones, consoles, computers, handhelds, PDAs, you name it. That **** is scary.

[QUOTE="DoctorBunny"]

Did you say SSB was a hardcore game..? The same people who play every mario party and pokemon plays that game.. even peope without a gamecube play it. Might as well call halo hardcore

NECR0CHILD313

I think a part of me died a little bit reading that post. Curse you System Wars, you take pieces of my life away every time I log in.

I think the TC's folly is focusing overly on the complication of the game in determining it's appeal. Of course the two are related, but it's definitely not the only factor, or with games like GTA, not a factor at all. I'd say a game is optimal if it's both easy to pick up while incorporating challenging factors, that's game quality, not game appeal.

Tetris is NOT a pure casual game, like the TC states. Tetris may be casual friendly, but along the lines of hardcore, it's more along the lines of a digital cult. I know people that have it programmed on just about everything it can be programmed on, calculators, cell phones, consoles, computers, handhelds, PDAs, you name it. That **** is scary.

People still play halo 1, who still plays SSB on the n64? Difference is it has no sequel so of course people are still going to play it. How many of these people do you think still will when brawl releases? 

I am quite fond of the definition of "simple to pick up and nearly impossible to master."foxhound_fox

it does not work though for playing against human players. How can you master it when someone will always be better than you? 

a game for hardcore and death metal people such as myself

no seriously they should make a game like that, i'd be the first to buy it

hell, i'll set up the soundtrack for them for free \m/

it does not work though for playing against human players. How can you master it when someone will always be better than you? DoctorBunny

[QUOTE="DoctorBunny"]it does not work though for playing against human players. How can you master it when someone will always be better than you? foxhound_fox

That would include every single multiplayer game then.. which is now 90% of games then. Meaning just about every single casual game is a hardcore game 

exceedingly difficult, appeals to a small section of the gaming public, and is obtuse in some way or another, whether through its mechanics or theme.

it does not work though for playing against human players. How can you master it when someone will always be better than you? 

DoctorBunny

First, I think you are being purposefully difficult, but that in itself isn't totally wrong on SW. The problem is that humans are not "the game". They are using it, but their brain and fingers are not controlled by developers or the console hardware. The AI is the only competition I would deem as being associated with the game.

[QUOTE="NECR0CHILD313"][QUOTE="DoctorBunny"]

Did you say SSB was a hardcore game..? The same people who play every mario party and pokemon plays that game.. even peope without a gamecube play it. Might as well call halo hardcore

DoctorBunny

I think a part of me died a little bit reading that post. Curse you System Wars, you take pieces of my life away every time I log in.

I think the TC's folly is focusing overly on the complication of the game in determining it's appeal. Of course the two are related, but it's definitely not the only factor, or with games like GTA, not a factor at all. I'd say a game is optimal if it's both easy to pick up while incorporating challenging factors, that's game quality, not game appeal.

Tetris is NOT a pure casual game, like the TC states. Tetris may be casual friendly, but along the lines of hardcore, it's more along the lines of a digital cult. I know people that have it programmed on just about everything it can be programmed on, calculators, cell phones, consoles, computers, handhelds, PDAs, you name it. That **** is scary.

People still play halo 1, who still plays SSB on the n64? Difference is it has no sequel so of course people are still going to play it. How many of these people do you think still will when brawl releases?

What? Both Halo and SSB have sequels. Would you to debate on what color the sky is before you go outside and check?

[QUOTE="DoctorBunny"][QUOTE="NECR0CHILD313"][QUOTE="DoctorBunny"]

Did you say SSB was a hardcore game..? The same people who play every mario party and pokemon plays that game.. even peope without a gamecube play it. Might as well call halo hardcore

NECR0CHILD313

I think a part of me died a little bit reading that post. Curse you System Wars, you take pieces of my life away every time I log in.

I think the TC's folly is focusing overly on the complication of the game in determining it's appeal. Of course the two are related, but it's definitely not the only factor, or with games like GTA, not a factor at all. I'd say a game is optimal if it's both easy to pick up while incorporating challenging factors, that's game quality, not game appeal.

Tetris is NOT a pure casual game, like the TC states. Tetris may be casual friendly, but along the lines of hardcore, it's more along the lines of a digital cult. I know people that have it programmed on just about everything it can be programmed on, calculators, cell phones, consoles, computers, handhelds, PDAs, you name it. That **** is scary.

People still play halo 1, who still plays SSB on the n64? Difference is it has no sequel so of course people are still going to play it. How many of these people do you think still will when brawl releases?

What? Both Halo and SSB have sequels. Would you to debate on what color the sky is before you go outside and check?

And did you read the post before replying?

/end 

[QUOTE="NECR0CHILD313"][QUOTE="DoctorBunny"][QUOTE="NECR0CHILD313"][QUOTE="DoctorBunny"]

Did you say SSB was a hardcore game..? The same people who play every mario party and pokemon plays that game.. even peope without a gamecube play it. Might as well call halo hardcore

DoctorBunny

I think a part of me died a little bit reading that post. Curse you System Wars, you take pieces of my life away every time I log in.

I think the TC's folly is focusing overly on the complication of the game in determining it's appeal. Of course the two are related, but it's definitely not the only factor, or with games like GTA, not a factor at all. I'd say a game is optimal if it's both easy to pick up while incorporating challenging factors, that's game quality, not game appeal.

Tetris is NOT a pure casual game, like the TC states. Tetris may be casual friendly, but along the lines of hardcore, it's more along the lines of a digital cult. I know people that have it programmed on just about everything it can be programmed on, calculators, cell phones, consoles, computers, handhelds, PDAs, you name it. That **** is scary.

People still play halo 1, who still plays SSB on the n64? Difference is it has no sequel so of course people are still going to play it. How many of these people do you think still will when brawl releases?

What? Both Halo and SSB have sequels. Would you to debate on what color the sky is before you go outside and check?

And did you read the post before replying?

/end

Did you read your post before you posted it?

*squints*

If what you're trying to say, ignoring your second sentence, is that people don't play N64 SSB, then you're comparing Apples with Oranges, Halo 2 sucked for everything but the multiplayer aspect, and Halo CE was great all around. SSBM was better than SSB is every aspect. I'm going out on a limb here, considering I have no idea what you're talking about with the "Difference is it has no sequel so of course people are still going to play it." thing.

[QUOTE="DoctorBunny"][QUOTE="NECR0CHILD313"][QUOTE="DoctorBunny"][QUOTE="NECR0CHILD313"][QUOTE="DoctorBunny"]

Did you say SSB was a hardcore game..? The same people who play every mario party and pokemon plays that game.. even peope without a gamecube play it. Might as well call halo hardcore

NECR0CHILD313

I think a part of me died a little bit reading that post. Curse you System Wars, you take pieces of my life away every time I log in.

I think the TC's folly is focusing overly on the complication of the game in determining it's appeal. Of course the two are related, but it's definitely not the only factor, or with games like GTA, not a factor at all. I'd say a game is optimal if it's both easy to pick up while incorporating challenging factors, that's game quality, not game appeal.

Tetris is NOT a pure casual game, like the TC states. Tetris may be casual friendly, but along the lines of hardcore, it's more along the lines of a digital cult. I know people that have it programmed on just about everything it can be programmed on, calculators, cell phones, consoles, computers, handhelds, PDAs, you name it. That **** is scary.

People still play halo 1, who still plays SSB on the n64? Difference is it has no sequel so of course people are still going to play it. How many of these people do you think still will when brawl releases?

What? Both Halo and SSB have sequels. Would you to debate on what color the sky is before you go outside and check?

And did you read the post before replying?

/end

Did you read your post before you posted it?

*squints*

If what you're trying to say, ignoring your second sentence, is that people don't play N64 SSB, then you're comparing Apples with Oranges, Halo 2 sucked for everything but the multiplayer aspect, and Halo CE was great all around. SSBM was better than SSB is every aspect. I'm going out on a limb here, considering I have no idea what you're talking about with the "Difference is it has no sequel so of course people are still going to play it." thing.

DId I say that? your ignorance is showing. 

I think one of the problems is that many people think casual and hardcore are complete opposites, but they really have nothing to do with each other.  This means a game can be hardcore and casual at the same time.

Casual tends to be a game that's easy to pick up, and appeals to a large audience (even non-gamers).  If a player can't pick up your game and instantly enjoy it, well then you failed as a developer.

Hardcore is a bit difficult to define since developers are changing the meaning of hardcore.  Old school hardcore was any game you had to spend what seemed like forever on to beat.  Most of this was left over idealogy from the arcade days where a developers main goal was to keep the quarters coming.  No longer do developers feel the need for that philosophy and have started to adapt game depth and the new meaning of hardcore.  Now I'm sure some of you are probably aready misreading depth as the length of a game, but that's wrong.  Depth is more about how long a game can stay challenging and entertaining.  Some games with great depth have been counter strike, Halo/2, and starcraft because despite millions of hours on these games I rarely hear "I'm tired of this" from someone who initially liked the game.

I think one of the problems is that many people think casual and hardcore are complete opposites, but they really have nothing to do with each other. This means a game can be hardcore and casual at the same time.

Casual tends to be a game that's easy to pick up, and appeals to a large audience (even non-gamers). If a player can't pick up your game and instantly enjoy it, well then you failed as a developer.

Hardcore is a bit difficult to define since developers are changing the meaning of hardcore. Old school hardcore was any game you had to spend what seemed like forever on to beat. Most of this was left over idealogy from the arcade days where a developers main goal was to keep the quarters coming. No longer do developers feel the need for that philosophy and have started to adapt game depth and the new meaning of hardcore. Now I'm sure some of you are probably aready misreading depth as the length of a game, but that's wrong. Depth is more about how long a game can stay challenging and entertaining. Some games with great depth have been counter strike, Halo/2, and starcraft because despite millions of hours on these games I rarely hear "I'm tired of this" from someone who initially liked the game.

jrhawk42

Hardcore is Warcraft, Starcraft, CS, ETpro etc. Games that are played for years on end due to deep mechanics and constant balancing. Games that have been scritinised constantly by players but have not been abandoned due to quality of design. Games that can be played to a professional level. I guess SSBM and alot of fighting games fit into the catagory as well, but mario platformers and whatnot are pretty casual, even if it is Iconic.

RPG's are hardcore i guess, but theres shallow and deep in every genre, few RPG's are skill based and offer depth. 

Hardcore is Warcraft, Starcraft, CS, ETpro etc. Games that are played for years on end due to deep mechanics and constant balancing. Games that have been scritinised constantly by players but have not been abandoned due to quality of design. Games that can be played to a professional level. I guess SSBM and alot of fighting games fit into the catagory as well, but mario platformers and whatnot are pretty casual, even if it is Iconic.

 

RPG's are hardcore i guess, but theres shallow and deep in every genre, few RPG's are skill based and offer depth. 

ChinoJamesKeene

So you are arguing that Mario games are not hardcore games because they appeal to casuals....or are saying that they are hardcore, but just happen to appeal to casuals as well.?

[QUOTE="ChinoJamesKeene"]

Hardcore is Warcraft, Starcraft, CS, ETpro etc. Games that are played for years on end due to deep mechanics and constant balancing. Games that have been scritinised constantly by players but have not been abandoned due to quality of design. Games that can be played to a professional level. I guess SSBM and alot of fighting games fit into the catagory as well, but mario platformers and whatnot are pretty casual, even if it is Iconic.

 

RPG's are hardcore i guess, but theres shallow and deep in every genre, few RPG's are skill based and offer depth.

whoisryanmack

So you are arguing that Mario games are not hardcore games because they appeal to casuals....or are saying that they are hardcore, but just happen to appeal to casuals as well.?

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"][QUOTE="ChinoJamesKeene"]

Hardcore is Warcraft, Starcraft, CS, ETpro etc. Games that are played for years on end due to deep mechanics and constant balancing. Games that have been scritinised constantly by players but have not been abandoned due to quality of design. Games that can be played to a professional level. I guess SSBM and alot of fighting games fit into the catagory as well, but mario platformers and whatnot are pretty casual, even if it is Iconic.

 

RPG's are hardcore i guess, but theres shallow and deep in every genre, few RPG's are skill based and offer depth.

subrosian

So you are arguing that Mario games are not hardcore games because they appeal to casuals....or are saying that they are hardcore, but just happen to appeal to casuals as well.?

Well, you have me questioning equally. I take from this that you have a hard time including Mario 64, and other mario platforms in the "hardcore" realm. I couldn't disagree more with this claim. Mario 64 single-handedly established 3d platforming (maybe the biggest innovation since polygons) and the earlier Marios displayed visuals, level design, and gameplay that could not be described by anthing less than "art" IMO.

Hardcore gamers are the conissuers. Their taste is what defines the needs and wants of the lesser strata. When a game is so well done that the hardcores are on cloud 9, the masses take notice. I think this is what happens with the Marios. The game isn't aimed at the casual, but becomes a casual favorite because it served those with the most sophisticated taste so well....making it a great game. In this way, the games' casual popularity is only an effect, not the intent.