The biggest reason for the frequent hardware failure this gen (RROD and YLOD)

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Timstuff

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#1 Timstuff
Member since 2002 • 26840 Posts

Back in the SNES days, the worst thing you had to worry about was your console getting a suntan. Now, it's all RROD this and YLOD that. It seems like everyone knows someone whose console broke on them. Remember all the fuss recently over Mattel selling toys that may have contained led from Chinese factories? Well ever since then, everyone has been trying to go "green and clean" and not including toxic things like lead or PVC in their products.

Unfortunately for consumer electronics, including video games, this means using lead-free solder when assembling our consoles. Why is this bad, you might ask? Because the lead-free solder is much more brittle, and when it's frequently re-heated and cooled by a console's processors, it starts to crack. When the motherboard warps due to prolonged heat exposure, this can cause the connections between the GPU and the motherboard to break, resulting in the red rings of death on the Xbox 360 or the yellow light of death on the PS3.

If console manufacturers were to treat us like adults and assume that we won't let our toddlers open up our game consoles and put their mouths all over the circuit boards, they would be using high-quality lead solder which can bend and flex with the motherboard without breaking their connections. There are some third party repair services that will replace the solder on your console for you, however these services cost a fair dime, and it doesn't change the fact that the companies are giving us poor quality products that will not stand up to years of use because of a stupid, minor problem.

Microsoft lost billions on replacing faulty Xbox 360s when they could have just flipped off Green Peace and used good solder. Now, pretty much every console this gen, whether it's a fat or a slim, PS3 or Xbox 360 is more or less a ticking time bomb waiting to go off, no matter how well ventilated or dust free your gaming area is. Eventually the solder on your GPU is going to be compromised, and you're going to have to either have the system replaced or fixed. I think it's a shame that we've all accepted such poor quality craftsmanship this generation as being a fact of life, and that manufacturers waste so much of their customers' money (and their own) repairing consoles that should not have broken in the first place.

I'm all for keeping TOYS non-toxic, but game consoles are not toys for toddlers. Not using lead solder because it's toxic is like not using batteries because they contain acid, and I think that it's high time console makers wisened up and gave us products that are built to last rather than built to break.

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SaltyMeatballs

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#3 SaltyMeatballs
Member since 2009 • 25165 Posts
There is more stuff to fail.
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Timstuff

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#4 Timstuff
Member since 2002 • 26840 Posts

I agree that they are foolish for not forseeing this ... but on the other hand using good hardware/components would increase price: See sony for releasing > $400

Console gamers HATE spending money, look at all the "financial savings" threads around here....

haberman13
It would hardly increase the price at all if they would just switch to leaded solder instead of lead-free solder. They are doing this because lead is the bogeyman silent killer that will murder your children, and no-one wants to have Green Peace or some other such group protesting their products because they use lead.
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haberman13

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#5 haberman13
Member since 2003 • 2414 Posts

[QUOTE="haberman13"]

I agree that they are foolish for not forseeing this ... but on the other hand using good hardware/components would increase price: See sony for releasing > $400

Console gamers HATE spending money, look at all the "financial savings" threads around here....

Timstuff

It would hardly increase the price at all if they would just switch to leaded solder instead of lead-free solder. They are doing this because lead is the bogeyman silent killer that will murder your children, and no-one wants to have Green Peace or some other such group protesting their products because they use lead.

MS took each component, calculated the cost of 1million units and started trimming from there .... *maybe* the solders are the same cost, and maybe not.

I doubt it was "the children" that forced the decision, regardless of what they say; so I have to conclude it was a money saving bid. (but again, who knows, I certainly don't trust their word when it says anything but "maximum profits" though)

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Locutus_Picard

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#6 Locutus_Picard
Member since 2004 • 4159 Posts

Even a Sega Genesis bought in 1989 is more reliable than a 360;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEBkL4D9skI

It's just means Microsoft is King of Cutting Corners. Inflate the prices but cut corners to reduce cost in order to maximize profits.

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turtlethetaffer

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#7 turtlethetaffer
Member since 2009 • 18973 Posts

I agree that they are foolish for not forseeing this ... but on the other hand using good hardware/components would increase price: See sony for releasing > $400

Console gamers HATE spending money, look at all the "financial savings" threads around here....

haberman13

Well not everyone has infinite money lying around to keep spending on hardware.

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GunSmith1_basic

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#8 GunSmith1_basic
Member since 2002 • 10548 Posts
yup I had a YLOD on my PS3 and the issue was the soldering. It's stupid to think that kids could get inside a console and I didn't know that was the issue. Pure sillines!
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EmperorSupreme

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#9 EmperorSupreme
Member since 2006 • 7686 Posts
Actually it's not a cost issue it's a regulation issue. I believe all electronics have to be ROHS compliant which means no lead among other toxic substances. It's funny because I think a lot of people thought this would be better for the environment, but I don't see how throwing away entire pieces of electronics is any better because you are worried about a little bit of lead.
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osan0

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#10 osan0
Member since 2004 • 17814 Posts
i think in some parts of the world lead based solder is not allowed anymore.....though im not 100% on that. so electronics companies need to design their hardware under the assumption that they cant use lead based solder. the biggest reason the 360 had a monumental failure rate and the origonal PS3s models suffered from YLOD was lack of testing under different conditions. this should have been caught long before either console went into mass production.
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Androvinus

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#11 Androvinus
Member since 2008 • 5796 Posts
you see the difference between the RROD and YLOD, is that microsoft gives 360 gamers nice long warranties, while sony does not. Ps3s last longer than 360s but its like if the ps3 is designed to break shortly after the warranty is up. Therefore sony actually makes a profit from all the ps3s that are repurchased and sent in for repairs for $150.
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T-Aldous

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#12 T-Aldous
Member since 2006 • 1244 Posts

[QUOTE="Timstuff"][QUOTE="haberman13"]

I agree that they are foolish for not forseeing this ... but on the other hand using good hardware/components would increase price: See sony for releasing > $400

Console gamers HATE spending money, look at all the "financial savings" threads around here....

haberman13

It would hardly increase the price at all if they would just switch to leaded solder instead of lead-free solder. They are doing this because lead is the bogeyman silent killer that will murder your children, and no-one wants to have Green Peace or some other such group protesting their products because they use lead.

MS took each component, calculated the cost of 1million units and started trimming from there .... *maybe* the solders are the same cost, and maybe not.

I doubt it was "the children" that forced the decision, regardless of what they say; so I have to conclude it was a money saving bid. (but again, who knows, I certainly don't trust their word when it says anything but "maximum profits" though)

I work for a electronics company and I run the machines that place these parts on the boards and I can tell you that lead-free solder is more expensive than lead solder. I use both types everyday at work and know the prices.
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T-Aldous

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#13 T-Aldous
Member since 2006 • 1244 Posts

Even a Sega Genesis bought in 1989 is more reliable than a 360;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEBkL4D9skI

It's just means Microsoft is King of Cutting Corners. Inflate the prices but cut corners to reduce cost in order to maximize profits.

Locutus_Picard

hate to break it to you and your anti-MS campaign but the Genesis used lead solder AND didn't get nearly as hot. MS didn't save a penny using lead-free solder.

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warmaster670

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#14 warmaster670
Member since 2004 • 4699 Posts

Even a Sega Genesis bought in 1989 is more reliable than a 360;


Locutus_Picard

common sense suggests a more complicated prodcut has a higher chance of something going wrong.

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warmaster670

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#15 warmaster670
Member since 2004 • 4699 Posts

you see the difference between the RROD and YLOD, is that microsoft gives 360 gamers nice long warranties, Androvinus

After years of ignoring the problem, and even then it only covers there screw up.

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#16 Pug-Nasty
Member since 2009 • 8508 Posts

Consoles are less reliable than they used to be because they are more complicated and advanced (technilogically, that is). The same is true of many things, from cars to appliances. You used to be able to count on a refrigerator lasting 20 years, now it's around 7. TVs... well, I don't think I've ever actaully witnessed the death of a CRT TV that didn't involve physical damage due to misuse, but I've had two Samsung LCDs crap out on me in the span of three years.

The other factor at work here is cost of production, as the cost gets driven down by using cheaper components the over all build quality suffers. But, as I said before, this is a universal characteristic of all industries.

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antifanboyftw

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#17 antifanboyftw
Member since 2007 • 2214 Posts
3 RRODs and 1 YLOD for me : (
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delta3074

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#18 delta3074
Member since 2007 • 20003 Posts
although lead free solder was part of the problem with the 360 ,it wasn't the biggest one, the substrate layer in between the GPU and the motherboard was not resistant enough to handle the heat and warped and cracked from cyclic heat damage, which,in turn,resulted in the cracks in the ball grid array, the jasper model sported a much better substrate material which is why square trade found the RROD plummeted below 5% shortly after the jaspers release., although the lead free solder was partly to blame it was more to do with a dodgy substrate layer
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#19 radoman
Member since 2008 • 297 Posts

Yep. There were also problems in manufacturing where many of the earlier consoles where shipped with defects in the bga. Small bubbles and cracks. These units would pass quality control but fail months later.