Saudi Arabia Is Now Nintendo's Largest Outside Investor

Saudi Arabia Is Now Nintendo's Largest Outside Investor

Saudi Arabia Is Now Nintendo's Largest Outside Investor

Saudi Arabia has increased its stake in Nintendo for a second time, and now owns over 8% of the company.

By Darryn Bonthuys on February 17, 2023 at 5:37AM PST

For the second time this week, Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund has increased its stake in Nintendo and has become its largest outside shareholder. The sovereign wealth fund, through its Savvy Games Group division, had originally owned just over 6% of the video game company when the year began, but it now has an 8.26% investment in Nintendo.

According to Bloomberg, this puts Savvy ahead of Japan's Government Pension Investment Fund but behind Nintendo, which has a 10.35% holding of shares in itself as of September 2022. "I think PIF is not even done and wouldn't be surprised if it continues to increase its stake in Nintendo going forward," industry consultant Serkan Toto said to Bloomberg.

Saudi Arabia under the leadership of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has made a concerted effort recently to invest in the video game industry, and with a $38 billion budget earmarked for Savvy, it has been on a major spending spree. Savvy entered the Chinese gaming market this week with a $265 million investment in esports organization VSPO, which is backed by gaming giant Tencent. Beyond these two deals, the PIF recently invested $1 billion into European giant Embracer group and has acquired stakes in EA, Activision-Blizzard, and Take-Two Interactive.

These investments haven't been without controversy though, as the Saudi government's position on human rights has often been criticized. The Crown Prince has been accused of ordering the death of US-based journalist Jamal Khashoggi back in 2018 after the reporter criticized Saudi Arabia's government--he went missing after he entered the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

I want to hear Nintendoboy's opinion on the matter. So i will wait patiently for the magic to happen.

In 10 years from now, every Switch 2 will come with a Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman stamped on the system, and this is incredibly exciting.

Hey ethics and business don't mix well. You want your damn Zeldas, dontCHA?

While it maybe good for Nintendo but, this can also be dangerous should Nintendo hostile-takeover should the opportunity arrives and that's almost as bad as this whole MS hostile-takeover look like a chump to say the least.

But still, I'm interest how this plays out in the end.

Saudia arabia is one of the best country.

Well, I'm basically positive about the movement to share/expand gaming culture with people in the Middle East. I believe that creating a common ground for business and culture is a win-win situation for both sides, despite political and religious differences, which should be dealt between governments, not us ordinary people. In this sense, I have no particular objection to Nintendo accepting their investment.

@ghosts4ever: all the other countries are run by little girls

I fully expect those two sheep here to dump Nintendo now.

They're a publicly traded company, so what?

I wonder if the Prince plays Switch a lot? Maybe on his private airplane. You never know.

When Saudi Arabia takes over, they will sell the Metroid IP to Sony, and then we will see how you'll be asking your "so what?".

That's it! I'm done buying Donkey Kong and F-Zero

#Gamesarepoliticsnow

Bringing that Nintendo love to the Middle East. Saudi needs more diversity that Nintendo brings to gaming. Saudi, please enjoy strong female protagonist Samus coming soon with Metroid 4. Saudi women need more stronger role models to look up too. Thank you for you money Saudi, please buy more stock.

This is good news, hopefully it will keep Nintendo conservative like the Japanese are in their beautiful singular culture. Keep fighting the elites, keep fighting globalism and keep fighting woke!

Huh? What are you talking about?

Many of the major "global" and "woke" Western publishers, such as EA, Take-Two, Activision, Blizzard, etc., are also heavily invested by the same Saudi funds. This is one of the consequences of economic and cultural globalization, and has nothing to do with conservatism as you put it.

This is... disturbing to say the least. I would prefer it if Nintendo were not beholden to the government pushing smooth brained projects like Neom. I hope they leave Nintendo alone and don't push any random Elon Musk-tier Techbro projects on them.

But still quite ironic. Nintendo are increasingly expressing values that run very contrary to what the saudi government usually hold. Although the Japanese government do not recognize same sex marriage, Nintendo does.

HOWEVER, things are not as black and white as they may initially seem. Saudi's government is still bad, however Mohammed Bin Salman is considerably more progressive, than his elders were. In many ways he may be seen as a reformer. Allowing women to drive, work and even pursue and education. He is shifting public interests away from oil, into tech (hence the investment into Nintendo).

Not praising the man, because he is still a horrible person. However, he is fully well aware that oil is not gonna sustain the country during his regime. So he invests into tech. And his social reforms themselves may be necessary to prevent a brain drain which would be disasterous for the tech economy he is trying to build.

While I know this is a joke and sarcasm, I always found it funny when people have those takes, regardless of whether they come from revolutionaries or reactionaries. Games have been what people would consider to be political, for at least 4 decades now, and they would know this if they actually bothered to read D&D lore or even think in ways outside of what their shock jocks tell them to.

Here is a screenshot of a game from 1983. A game that is nearly 40 years old now.

And this isn't some obscure game either. AAA games didnt exist back then, but this game would have been a AAA game had they existed. As it was mainstream, pushing tech, and coming near the top in sales charts. It was also pushing gameplay too. And would serve as a basis for a niche indie game known as Dragon Quest as well as Final Fantasy.

There's no business/culture/ordinary ties in or with SA. Everything is dictated by the royal family i.e. the government. Even China is a heaven compared to SA.

He's neither progressive nor a reformer. He's just as bad as all his predecessors. Don't confuse his act of appearing as a progressive fool you. Most of that is just charade to encourage western investment etc. Nothing really changed in SA just the face.

Well, even if the investors are from the royal family, the general workers involved in the game business there, such as trade, promotion, retail, R&D, or the organizers and players of e-sports events, the streamers and influencers who make money from games, and the consumers who just buy and enjoy games, are mostly ordinary people there. In this sense, there is business and cultural exchange with ordinary people there through video games.

Boycott Nintendo games Saudi Arabia is the worst offender of the LGBTQ+ community and women rights, where is the outage

Hey, get your theocratic-monarchy out of my video games!

@Maroxad said:

While I know this is a joke and sarcasm, I always found it funny when people have those takes, regardless of whether they come from revolutionaries or reactionaries. Games have been what people would consider to be political, for at least 4 decades now, and they would know this if they actually bothered to read D&D lore or even think in ways outside of what their shock jocks tell them to.

Here is a screenshot of a game from 1983. A game that is nearly 40 years old now.

And this isn't some obscure game either. AAA games didnt exist back then, but this game would have been a AAA game had they existed. As it was mainstream, pushing tech, and coming near the top in sales charts. It was also pushing gameplay too. And would serve as a basis for a niche indie game known as Dragon Quest as well as Final Fantasy.

I'm fine with everything in games though, doesn't bother me one bit.

What I am bothered by is every discussion being poltics. Half the threads in the steam forum of Atomic Heart are about the war.

It's my fault really for trying to come across interesting discussions/knowledge and constantly coming across comments like these:

There is only one discourse, and that discourse is politics.

Yes, games in the 80s were political, was it 90% of the discourse?

It wasn't.

@R4gn4r0k said:

I'm fine with everything in games though, doesn't bother me one bit.

What I am bothered by is every discussion being poltics. Half the threads in the steam forum of Atomic Heart are about the war.

It's my fault really for trying to come across interesting discussions/knowledge and constantly coming across comments like these:

There is only one discourse, and that discourse is politics.

Yes, games in the 80s were political, was it 90% of the discourse?

It wasn't.

Same, I am also fine with everything, in fact, II am more than fine with narratives that challenge my views. This is one reason I hold Disco Elysium and KOTOR 2 in such high regard.

I also prefer to avoid going political here, which is why I trimmed down my response in ways to only really affect Nintendo stuff itt. And in the Hogwarts Legacy thread I am ignoring the social issues entirely in favor of looking at the fact that HL looks like a boring and bland Ubilike.

I don't disagree with your general sentiment that he is a terrible person. The ongoing crimes against humanity are evidence enough of that. However, transitioning from a salafi dystopia to a keanu reeves techbro elon musk dystopia is still a reformation. Loosening the laws even if just to appeal to western investment, still doesnt change the fact that he is loosing the laws.

And there-in lies the point. I don't think he would be willing to impose Nintendo from shifting away from their own recently adopted values. Because that would be a PR disaster that would set him back from his epic scienceman dystopia. He is still just as powerhungry as the predecessors, just that he looks to assert his power through alternate means.

Best take a look at human rights in your own country before pointing the finger at others.

The fake outrage aimed at my football team Newcastle United since the Saudis took over has been pitiful.

Crying about human rights but watching ppv heavyweight boxing and the world cup 🤣

The UK and the USA are the last countries to play the human rights card ffs

That's the misunderstanding. The 'general workers' will be at best the ones that were 'filtered' for these kind of events or worse mostly the elites/relatives/having ties to the royal family. You're delusional if you think most of the common people would be allowed to take part.

That is my point. He's not transitioning away at all from the Salafi dystopia. This is where he and the Saudis in general draw their power and legitimacy from. It's all just a facade to put wool on the eyes of outsiders. The loosening of the laws are/will be nothing but on paper. Just look at 'allowing women to drive' driving as an example, there was a lot of hoopla and PR by Saudis regarding that but in practice it didn't change much. Nothing has changed or will change for the vast majority of the population. As for the elites and royals, well, it's not like the laws ever applied to them in the first place.

Oh I didn't mean that he will force or impose these things on Nintendo when I wrote all this. He will have a hands-off approach and I'm quite sure he just wants to profit from Nintendo, even if that goes against the Salafi or Saudis beliefs in general. It's not like they aren't hypocrites of the highest order or anything. At best, he will try to do subtle things like white washing SA's outlook and try to present it in a more positive light etc etc. Not anything drastic that affect or goes against the accepted social norms in the wider world.

It's amazing watching people in here flip flopping.

Neom is probably going to end up in development hell... But it would at least make a good video game setting. Maybe not a Nintendo game, but probably a Sony movie game set in a fictional Neom.

But yeah, Bin Salman is fairly progressive and Westernized by Saudi standards. He's spoken about how he dislikes Salafism, his appreciation of Western and Japanese cultures, and his vision to make Saudi Arabia like a Western country or the UAE by 2030. In the last five years since he came to power, a lot has changed in Saudi Arabia: women now work and drive, they can pursue education and careers, Hijab is no longer mandatory, cinemas and concerts have re-opened, and he's cracking down on the "religious police" enforcing Sharia laws. That's quite a lot of changes in just five years.

But that comes at the cost of facing rebellions from religious conservatives... who the Prince has been incarcerating and executing in droves. He's also taken cues from the US and UK on how to be a neo-con warmonger, waging his own "War on Terror" in neighbouring Yemen (using weapons purchased from the US and UK). He's definitely not a nice guy. But then again, the same could be said for many Western leaders.

Except he is, which is why he is facing a lot of backlash from Salafists.

For sure, Neom could be an interesting setting for a system shock 2 like game.

And that is ultimately the thing. He is pretty darn repressive when you look at western standards, but not by Saudi standards, quite the opposite in fact. The fact that he is at constant odds with the Salafists should be telling enough. And his repressive values don't really seem to have a negative impact on any of the companies he is investing in.

Govs need to sanction the Saudis and non-Saudi investors need to step up their game.

@Maroxad said:

@R4gn4r0k said:

That's it! I'm done buying Donkey Kong and F-Zero

#Gamesarepoliticsnow

While I know this is a joke and sarcasm, I always found it funny when people have those takes, regardless of whether they come from revolutionaries or reactionaries. Games have been what people would consider to be political, for at least 4 decades now, and they would know this if they actually bothered to read D&D lore or even think in ways outside of what their shock jocks tell them to.

Here is a screenshot of a game from 1983. A game that is nearly 40 years old now.

And this isn't some obscure game either. AAA games didnt exist back then, but this game would have been a AAA game had they existed. As it was mainstream, pushing tech, and coming near the top in sales charts. It was also pushing gameplay too. And would serve as a basis for a niche indie game known as Dragon Quest as well as Final Fantasy.

Ultima III: Exodus wasn't mainstream though. It was quite niche, barely selling just over 100,000 copies in the US and a similar amount in Japan. It didn't come close to the original Dragon Quest, which sold 1.5 million in Japan and 500,000 in the US.

But I get your point though. Richard Garriott was ahead of his time in that regard. And his political views on Twitter tend to be more left-leaning (he's very anti-Trump), so I'm not surprised he's had similar left-leaning views since the '80s.

EDIT:

Just looked up Garriott's Twitter account, and he addressed the Exodus gender thing just a few hours ago, coincidentally...

https://twitter.com/RichardGarriott/status/1628830542337548289

Sounds like he came up with the "Other" gender because of technical limitations, as he couldn't tell the gender from the sprites... which sounds similar to how Shigeru Miyamoto came up with Mario's moustache because of technical limitations.

For the time 100k copies sold was huge for PC gaming. Just goes to show how much gaming has grown since.

Edit: As for the other gender. It was indeed inspired by the tech limitations. And then later tech limitations also resulted in the other sex being removed for Ultima 4 and up. Ultima 1 and 2 did not let you put other as your sex though. So it was cool that for Ultima 3, he added that feature.

That said, I don't consider 'Other' as an option to be a political move. What was however a political move was Lord Blackthorn's regime in Ultima 5. Which was almost certainly in part inspired by the Moral Majority and the rest of the religious right Ronald Reagan had nurtured.

That's certainly true for PC gaming. 100K wasn't much by NES or Atari 2600 standards, but it was massive for a PC game at the time. In the US, Ultima III was a big hit at 100K in the early '80s, yet Dragon Warrior (US name for Dragon Quest) was considered a failure at 500K in the late '80s... though that's mainly because Nintendo over-estimated US demand and manufactured a million cartridges, eventually giving half of them away for free with Nintendo Power subscriptions.

Didn't Ultima IV also have political themes? Haven't really played it (only watched gameplay footage online), but that game seems to lean heavily into religion, especially Christianity and Hinduism. Could there be some politics there too?

@Maroxad said:

@R4gn4r0k said:

That's it! I'm done buying Donkey Kong and F-Zero

#Gamesarepoliticsnow

While I know this is a joke and sarcasm, I always found it funny when people have those takes, regardless of whether they come from revolutionaries or reactionaries. Games have been what people would consider to be political, for at least 4 decades now, and they would know this if they actually bothered to read D&D lore or even think in ways outside of what their shock jocks tell them to.

Here is a screenshot of a game from 1983. A game that is nearly 40 years old now.

And this isn't some obscure game either. AAA games didnt exist back then, but this game would have been a AAA game had they existed. As it was mainstream, pushing tech, and coming near the top in sales charts. It was also pushing gameplay too. And would serve as a basis for a niche indie game known as Dragon Quest as well as Final Fantasy.

And there is Fallout. Was re-playing New Vegas recently (ended again with NCR/Boomer/Brotherhood/Followers alliance, the two independence options turn out to not be anything I can agree with between the scumbag billionaire and being run by an AI... screw the Legion anytime though, never playing as them).

And Civilization where you can choose the many ways of ruling the world. Like having Indigenous cultures get back at Washington or London.

CDPR with the messaging in Witcher and Cyberpunk. Etc, etc.

Good point. What's more effective than boycotts or sanctions is building bridges via cultural exchange. If you can influence the ordinary people, that's going to eventually impact the governments in the long run. Saudi Arabia is already a billion-dollar market for video games. There's a lot of gamers there already being influenced by video games from abroad.

Well, that's not always the case. While it's true that the royal family and related elites are leading their investments in the gaming industry, that doesn't mean the average worker is cut off. For example, they plan to invest heavily in the eSports industry, including hosting international competitions, which are estimated to create 39,000 jobs in the country.

Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince has announced a plan to develop the country’s gaming and esports industry, aiming to create 39,000 jobs and boost GDP by $13.3 billion (50 billion riyals) by 2030.

The new National Gaming and Esports Strategy will involve business incubators, new educational academies, and regulation intended to stimulate growth of the industry, the Saudi Press Agency (SPA) reported Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman as saying on Thursday.

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/gulf/2022/09/15/Saudi-esports-and-gaming-strategy-expects-to-boost-GDP-by-13-3-bln-add-39-000-jobs

Given the much smaller number of royalty, it is self-evident that not all of them are connected to royalty and that such jobs are open to the public, albeit gradually. If you say otherwise, feel free to provide your sources.

Nah, Ultima 4 was more akin to a Self Help video game. Except unlike the Self Help books polluting the US. Ultima 4 actually did a pretty good job. There were some religious imagery. But it wasnt particularly religious messaging.

I think you underestimate the number of royals. Their family members number in the thousands if not tens of thousands. As for creating 39000 jobs etc. Well, I'm 100% sure most of these will be filled by migrant workers with cutthroats timings, working conditions and the few top positions will be handled by the Saudis (most probably royals themselves or their friends) etc. Most of the participants in these events, as I said above will be from outside world, mostly Western, Chinese or other rich gulf Arab states or again close relatives/friends of the royals.

You're just seeing them from your western lens. These gulf states are completely different and SA is an even more extreme example. You could only understand all that once you have been to any of the gulf states, and even then, it depends if you will be exposed to all the bullsh*t that goes in there. Think of some of the worst examples of colonial rule but with 21st century flavor. I can't recall the name of the exact event but there was one I think in Dubai where they literally, openly and in broad daylight, didn't allow black/brown other people of color to attend it, and only the local Arabs (yes, not even the Arabs from other poor countries) or white people were allowed.

@pc_rocks: So you are assuming that they are investing in the video game industry just for the money games of the royalty/elites and to create jobs for the immigrants there?

But their deregulation seems to be clearly aimed at exposing the entire nation to a gaming culture and market that was previously regulated by strict rules, isn't it?

It seems to me that the current top leadership is trying to incorporate the video game culture into their country as part of an effort to open up their country economically and culturally more than their leaders did in the past.

I think it is more your way of looking at it through the lens of the common stereotype that their leaders are always oppressors, which makes even a positive change seem like something different.

saudi prince is a scumbag, but hes smart. Oil is going down, so hes investing like crazy. This is a smart strategy, that will keep their country from going down with oil. But end of the day, they still need to solve their industry issues, building other industries aside from oil.

Yes. There economy is run by immigrants conditions. You will only find the native people in military, police, immigration, top level executives (more like just people providing capital) or at best as doctors.

But their deregulation seems to be clearly aimed at exposing the entire nation to a gaming culture and market that was previously regulated by strict rules, isn't it?

That's the point. It's all just a ruse. Poeple who had access to games and gaming culture will continue to have it and people who didn't will not suddenly get exposed to it. It's not like gaming was banned there or you couldn't play it before. Now you will just have public events openly. You somehow think that before, the elites there never had access to all the 'vice' common in the western world. Newsflash the rules never applied to them in the first place and they have been doing all that inside their palaces.

It seems to me that the current top leadership is trying to incorporate the video game culture into their country as part of an effort to open up their country economically and culturally more than their leaders did in the past.

Economically, yes. Culturally, no. Different rules for different people. Your and apparently many others in this thread think that rules apply equally to everyone there.

I think it is more your way of looking at it through the lens of the common stereotype that their leaders are always oppressors, which makes even a positive change seem like something different.

I'm not looking at any lens but can see right through all the bullsh*t and PR. Everything I said isn't just a stereotype. It's a fact of life. I spent three months for a project in one of the gulf states (Qatar) and saw/experience everything with my own eyes. I still have friends/former colleagues there and in SA with whom I can still find out what's actually happening.

@pc_rocks:

Well, your understanding seems a bit old-fashioned. The current government has been implementing an initiative since 2016 to create large scale jobs for Saudi nationals, including women, in various fields of professions and services. It is called Saudization or Saudi nationalization scheme. Google it.

The point is that the government has openly started investing heavily in Western and Asian gaming companies and eSports with their games, which is evidence that they are becoming more permissive in exposing the public to foreign entertainment, which is pretty simple.

Dude, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are different countries even though they are geographical neighbors, the ignorance to claim you understand Saudi Arabia because you went to Qatar for a bit is just as ridiculous as claiming you know about Iraq because you traveled to Iran. It just shows your very biased views of their cultures, haha.

But in any case, I'm done here because further discussion would not be useful anyway.

I know about all the initiatives, I don't need to google it. I know from people who experience all of that, on a daily basis, first hand, not from the news or the Saudi's PR dept. As for me confusing Qatar with SA and how they are not same. Well, congratulations, you just proved my point on how little you know about these states. I used Qatar as an example because it's actually and factually much more 'moderate' than SA. Oh and your Iran/Iraq example doesn't work because unlike the oil rich gulf Arab states. Iran and Iraq are completely different, from culturally, ethnically, linguistically, historically, economically and socially.

Either way man, got way off-topic and it's not like you're gonna accept it no matter whatever I say. So go ahead and believe what you want. It's just depressing to know that their tactics are working.

Are you sure it wasn't? Richard Garriott has said a bunch of times Ultima IV was heavily inspired by world religions, especially Hinduism. Apparently, the strong Hindu influences offended some of his Christian fans who "cancelled" him even back in the '80s:

https://twitter.com/RichardGarriott/status/672070496155017217

That makes me wonder... What does he identify as? Christian, Hindu, Atheist, or Agnostic?

It certainly used the imagery. But the christian references were mostly just some imagery, and the 3 founding principles were based on a classic (The Wizard of Oz). But the game itself never really preached hindu values. But more took some inspiration from the Dharmic Structures.

The 8 virtues, were his own. Based on what was practical to put in a game, and were still good liife advice in general.

@st_monica:

@pc_rocks:

As someone who has been to the Gulf region, including Saudi Arabia... I'd have to mostly agree with Monica here.

I agree with pc_rock's point that racism/xenophobia in the Arabian Gulf region is a serious problem that often gets overlooked in Western media. There is a lot of favouritism towards Western tourists/expats in the region, and a lot of racism/discrimination against migrant workers from South/Southeast Asia and Africa. The irony is that the same Western media which criticizes Saudi Arabia when it comes to women's rights, and the Gulf region in general when it comes to LGBT rights... are mostly silent when it comes to racism/xenophobia against South/Southeast Asian and African workers.

However, if you rewind the clock back a few decades... The racism/xenophobia was worse in Western countries. Here in the UK, there were white-supremacist skinheads who routinely assaulted black/brown/Asian people back in the '70s and '80s. And it was worse in the US, where you had KKK white supremacists who routinely lynched blacks and other minorities in the '50s and '60s. The racism/xenophobia in the Gulf region hasn't reached anywhere near those extreme levels. While immigrants certainly have fewer rights in the Gulf than in the West today, it will take some time for the Gulf region to catch up with the West. And that can be achieved with cultural exchange, as that will put pressure on the Gulf countries to make reforms. We've already seen this with the Qatar World Cup, where they were forced to make some labour reforms because of international pressure. That's what it takes to bring change to the region.

I'm pretty sure some of those eight virtues were borrowed from either Christianity or Hinduism, as that's what Garriott himself seems to imply in interviews and tweets. Either way, regardless of his influences, Ultima IV had an interesting unique concept for its time. Are later Ultima games similar, or more like traditional Tolkien-esque plots?

Well, he basically took general good advice, and saw what would work in a video game. But it is likely that some of these virtues may have been inspired by Christianity or Hinduism. But still, it doesnt explicitly promote any religion itself which is why I didnt find it particularly political compared to the next 3 entries.

Ironically enough, the first 4 Ultima games (0-3) were the most tolkien like. With the exception of spacefaring and a computer. You even fought a Balrog in the first two. After 3, most of the Tolkien elements went away, gone were the hobbits, elves and dwarves. Instead we were more exploring Richard Garriott's personal interests and worldviews. After 4, things got a lot more topical, and generally referenced Garriott's real world concerns. And still maintained his own flavor of worldbuilding, the interesting concepts you saw in Ultima 4 were later on built on in later games, rather than tolkien.

Edit: Cut out things to shorten my post to stick more directly to answering the question.

Well, it is interesting that both you and PC_Rock have actually been to some of the Gulf countries. I only interacted with exchange students from Saudi Arabia and Iran in college (although they were very westernized in their thinking as being elites, and both liking video games and anime, haha). I'd also love to go there someday if I get the chance.

I agree with all your points about their problems and problems in the West, and I understand what you say about international pressure working, as seen in the Qatar World Cup.

Even looking at it from the outside, I can actually see positive changes that have never been seen before, such as female players playing in eSports tournaments in Saudi Arabia and being publicly honored for their achievements.

Btw, I'm playing Lika A Dragon: Ishin this weekend, which is about the social changes that forced the Japanese to become westernized at the end of the 19th century due to international pressure. But personally, as a fan of samurai culture, it is also a sad story about Japan's abandonment of samurai culture in favor of Western civilization, which makes me question whether all Westernization can be justified, haha.