Remember when we all thought EA was evil for not letting that guy play DA2?

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PBSnipes

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#1 PBSnipes
Member since 2007 • 14621 Posts

Steam user violates subscriber agreement, loses $1,800 in games

What happens if you violate Steam's Subscriber Agreement and you have a library of games worth nearly $2,000? As one user learned, you'll lose access to all of those games.

The user in question, who has a total of $1,794.52 worth of games on his or her Steam account, decided to ask how much another person might pay for such an account. "Obviously I don't want someone to pay $1,800 for my account," the gamer wrote on Reddit. "I'm looking at money of course, not full price considering I bought most of them on sale, but maybe we can come to some sort of deal...Of course if someone actually takes me up I'll be removing my credit card information from the account, along with my friends list."

That was a month ago. A little more than a week ago the user was unable to connect with Steam, and was later informed that the account had been disabled for violating the Steam Subscriber Agreement, which explicitly states "you may not sell or charge others for the right to use your account, or otherwise transfer your account." And according to this e-mail chain, the ban is permanent.

In a later Reddit post, the user claims he or she was simply "asking how much someone would pay for a profile like that" and that the account was never actually sold or traded. However, the intention to sell was clearly there, as another post reads "I WAS 'trying' to sell my Steam account on r/gameswap, but that was over a month ago, you can't even access the post now. What pisses me off is that they waited an entire month, up to last night, before disabling my account. They didn't even send me an email (explaining) why it was disabled, I was just logged off of Steam with no warning."

ArsTechnica

Valve has been conctacted by Ars but have not responded as of yet.

Long story short: in a move that would make the Thought Police proud, Valve permabanned a user just for considering selling their account.

Hopefully this turns out to just be an honest mistake, but it raises serious questions about consumer rights in the age of digital distribution and good ol' ToU agreements, and with any luck we'll get some good old fashioned SW hypocrisy (ie PC-types who railed against EA attempting to defend PC golden-boy Valve after pulling the exact same **** move) as well.

*Update*: Valve has re-activated the account.

Still, I think the incedent serves as a good example of the issues DD faces. Other distributors (*cough*MS*cough*EA*cough*Sony*cough*Acti-Bliz*cough*) aren't necessarily known for having the same consumer-friendly and understanding attitude as Valve, and we'll likely see more and more of these types of situations as DD becomes more popular. Furthermore, it raises the question of what's so wrong with selling your Steam account or why can't we transfer game licenses, considering Steam and other DD services already have the DRM in place to combat any potential abuses.

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DarkLink77

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#2 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

And this is why I buy physical copies. You have no rights as a consumer with DD.

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icyseanfitz

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#3 icyseanfitz
Member since 2006 • 2493 Posts

disgraceful :( he paid for those games so he should be able to use them however he sees fit

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PBSnipes

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#4 PBSnipes
Member since 2007 • 14621 Posts

And this is why I buy physical copies. You have no rights as a consumer with DD.

DarkLink77

Technically you don't have many more rights with the physical copy (it's just easier to enforce bull**** ToUs with DD, although even that's potentially changing as more games use persistent online features), and the distinction is becoming less and less relevant as more games move to Steamworks and similar platforms.

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Couth_

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#5 Couth_
Member since 2008 • 10369 Posts

disgraceful :( he paid for those games so he should be able to use them however he sees fit

icyseanfitz
Fine print and he agreed to it. Valve shouldn't bend
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DarkLink77

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#6 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

And this is why I buy physical copies. You have no rights as a consumer with DD.

PBSnipes

Technically you don't have many more rights with the physical copy (it's just easier to enforce bull**** ToUs), and the distinction is becoming less and less relevant as more games move to Steamworks and similar platforms.

Yeah, and it's trash. If I buy your game, it ain't yours anymore. It's mine. I don't stop magically owning my books because the author decided he wanted to make more money or make sure that no one could resell them, but apparently I do for games. It's f***ing bulls***. I'm never buying another game off of Steam again.

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KristoffBrujah

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#7 KristoffBrujah
Member since 2005 • 1860 Posts

Screw Steam. This is why I stopped using Steam- no control. With a disk I have some measure of control.

If you let a publisher invade your computer and control your content willingly, then you are partly responsible for what happens. I feel sorry for him but he decided to buy stuff on Steam where he possessed no physical copy and let some **** control his games. No thanks, Valve, you virus.

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Bread_or_Decide

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#8 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29761 Posts
Yup...this is what digital downloads brings. Anyone still against hard disc media?
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Infinite_Access

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#9 Infinite_Access
Member since 2007 • 2483 Posts

This is complete ****

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fastr

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#10 fastr
Member since 2010 • 2100 Posts
This is why I laugh at the idea console games are more expensive. I can do whatever I want with my copy of a game, including selling it on ebay for as much as I purchased it off ebay for, or go trade it into gamespot if I wanted to get ripped off.
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110million

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#11 110million
Member since 2008 • 14910 Posts
One guy who was probably actually planning to sell his account losing it doesn't suddenly make a case against digital distribution, millions of players are doing just fine. This is no random act of losing you're account, its someone who could very well have had malicious intent regardless of what he says now.
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Mr_BillGates

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#12 Mr_BillGates
Member since 2005 • 3211 Posts

Give your best cheap shots to Valve because this is your only chance. :lol:

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SaltyMeatballs

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#13 SaltyMeatballs
Member since 2009 • 25165 Posts
Selling account is like the used games business of DD. Is it legal though? Sounds dodgy.
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KristoffBrujah

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#14 KristoffBrujah
Member since 2005 • 1860 Posts

One guy who was probably actually planning to sell his account losing it doesn't suddenly make a case against digital distribution, millions of players are doing just fine. This is no random act of losing you're account, its someone who could very well have had malicious intent regardless of what he says now. 110million

Reselling your games is malicious? He's just trying to do digitally what millions have done at Gamestops or on Ebay legally. The only difference is that with control over the game, Steam can call it a "violation."

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rpgs_shall_rule

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#15 rpgs_shall_rule
Member since 2006 • 1943 Posts
Meh, this is why I don't buy exclusively on Steam :D
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deactivated-63f6895020e66

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#16 deactivated-63f6895020e66
Member since 2004 • 21177 Posts
We really need to start reading the ToU we agree with.
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DarkLink77

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#17 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts
One guy who was probably actually planning to sell his account losing it doesn't suddenly make a case against digital distribution, millions of players are doing just fine. This is no random act of losing you're account, its someone who could very well have had malicious intent regardless of what he says now. 110million
The fact of the matter is he didn't do anything against the ToU. The account was not sold. The ToU doesn't allow Valve to ban you for having thoughts/asking questions.
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SaltyMeatballs

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#18 SaltyMeatballs
Member since 2009 • 25165 Posts
We really need to start reading the ToU we agree with.IronBass
Ok, you can start the trend :P
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DarkLink77

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#19 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts
We really need to start reading the ToU we agree with.IronBass
If companies would write them in English instead of legalspeak, maybe I'd be able to.
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110million

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#20 110million
Member since 2008 • 14910 Posts

[QUOTE="110million"]One guy who was probably actually planning to sell his account losing it doesn't suddenly make a case against digital distribution, millions of players are doing just fine. This is no random act of losing you're account, its someone who could very well have had malicious intent regardless of what he says now. KristoffBrujah

Reselling your games is malicious? He's just trying to do digitally what millions have done at Gamestops or on Ebay legally. The only difference is that with control over the game, Steam can call it a "violation."

Almost no one retailer buys and sells used PC games, especially not ones that use CD keys and are tied to some account. Some places like Gamestop will have a small section on used PC games, but they are often old games that just have a simple CD key check that comes with the game regardless, in modern day where you have online activations and games tied to accounts, its an entirely different kettle of fish. You have no guarantee that this user doesn't have some games tied to his EA account or whatnot, and whoever buys it would not be able to play the game anyways. There are far too many games with their own unique activation, accounts, etc, even through steam, to allow selling PC games.
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SkyWard20

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#21 SkyWard20
Member since 2009 • 4509 Posts

it's ok because it's valve and steam is awesome for pc gamers. let's go back to bashing bioware now.

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KristoffBrujah

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#22 KristoffBrujah
Member since 2005 • 1860 Posts

[QUOTE="KristoffBrujah"]

[QUOTE="110million"]One guy who was probably actually planning to sell his account losing it doesn't suddenly make a case against digital distribution, millions of players are doing just fine. This is no random act of losing you're account, its someone who could very well have had malicious intent regardless of what he says now. 110million

Reselling your games is malicious? He's just trying to do digitally what millions have done at Gamestops or on Ebay legally. The only difference is that with control over the game, Steam can call it a "violation."

Almost no one retailer buys and sells used PC games, especially not ones that use CD keys and are tied to some account. Some places like Gamestop will have a small section on used PC games, but they are often old games that just have a simple CD key check that comes with the game regardless, in modern day where you have online activations and games tied to accounts, its an entirely different kettle of fish. You have no guarantee that this user doesn't have some games tied to his EA account or whatnot, and whoever buys it would not be able to play the game anyways. There are far too many games with their own unique activation, accounts, etc, even through steam, to allow selling PC games.

Okay, but they're doing it with console all the time and older PC games.

I fail to see the inherent ethical goodness of selling console games and older PC games, and at the same time see what you described as "maliciousness" of reselling newer PC games. You can't possibly call one malicious and the other perfectly acceptable based solely on which license agreements and DRM are on each game.

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SkyWard20

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#23 SkyWard20
Member since 2009 • 4509 Posts
One guy who was probably actually planning to sell his account losing it doesn't suddenly make a case against digital distribution, millions of players are doing just fine. This is no random act of losing you're account, its someone who could very well have had malicious intent regardless of what he says now. 110million
i don't see the problem anyway.. valve should be free to prohibit account selling, but to me, it's like reselling the games you bought so morally, I don't see it as much of a big deal. valve just wants a bigger piece of the pie. either way, this is no reason to lose access to all of your games.
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deactivated-63f6895020e66

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#24 deactivated-63f6895020e66
Member since 2004 • 21177 Posts
Ok, you can start the trend :PSaltyMeatballs
D:
If companies would write them in English instead of legalspeak, maybe I'd be able to.DarkLink77
Use wikipedia!
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Couth_

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#26 Couth_
Member since 2008 • 10369 Posts

If companies would write them in English instead of legalspeak, maybe I'd be able to.DarkLink77
Actually Valve's is pretty easy to understand.
[QUOTE="110million"]One guy who was probably actually planning to sell his account losing it doesn't suddenly make a case against digital distribution, millions of players are doing just fine. This is no random act of losing you're account, its someone who could very well have had malicious intent regardless of what he says now. DarkLink77
The fact of the matter is he didn't do anything against the ToU. The account was not sold. The ToU doesn't allow Valve to ban you for having thoughts/asking questions.

Actually it states: You are entitled to use the Software for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Software to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Software to others without the prior written consent of Valve or or (iii) exploit the Software or any of its parts for any commercial purpose.

He had obvious intent.

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110million

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#27 110million
Member since 2008 • 14910 Posts
[QUOTE="SaltyMeatballs"]Ok, you can start the trend :PIronBass
D:
If companies would write them in English instead of legalspeak, maybe I'd be able to.DarkLink77
Use wikipedia!

The real solution is think before you act, if you have to consider whether something is against the TOU, it probably is. I don't think he should have necessarily lost his account, but people shouldn't use this as an attack on digital distribution, because its not like he was a random target.
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DarkLink77

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#28 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts
[QUOTE="Couth_"] Actually it states: You are entitled to use the Software for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Software to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Software to others without the prior written consent of Valve or or (iii) exploit the Software or any of its parts for any commercial purpose. He had obvious intent.

Intent is not the same as action.
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lawlessx

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#29 lawlessx
Member since 2004 • 48753 Posts
This guy should have known it's against TOS to sell your account. To post a thread (on steam's message board no less) asking how much your account is worth is just asking for your account to be banned.
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SkyWard20

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#30 SkyWard20
Member since 2009 • 4509 Posts
[QUOTE="KristoffBrujah"]

[QUOTE="110million"]One guy who was probably actually planning to sell his account losing it doesn't suddenly make a case against digital distribution, millions of players are doing just fine. This is no random act of losing you're account, its someone who could very well have had malicious intent regardless of what he says now. 110million

Reselling your games is malicious? He's just trying to do digitally what millions have done at Gamestops or on Ebay legally. The only difference is that with control over the game, Steam can call it a "violation."

Almost no one retailer buys and sells used PC games, especially not ones that use CD keys and are tied to some account. Some places like Gamestop will have a small section on used PC games, but they are often old games that just have a simple CD key check that comes with the game regardless, in modern day where you have online activations and games tied to accounts, its an entirely different kettle of fish. You have no guarantee that this user doesn't have some games tied to his EA account or whatnot, and whoever buys it would not be able to play the game anyways. There are far too many games with their own unique activation, accounts, etc, even through steam, to allow selling PC games.

so it's okay to prevent someone from reselling their games because it *might* be a scam. we don't know if that guy was about to scam anyone anyway.
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110million

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#31 110million
Member since 2008 • 14910 Posts

[QUOTE="110million"][QUOTE="KristoffBrujah"]

Reselling your games is malicious? He's just trying to do digitally what millions have done at Gamestops or on Ebay legally. The only difference is that with control over the game, Steam can call it a "violation."

SkyWard20

Almost no one retailer buys and sells used PC games, especially not ones that use CD keys and are tied to some account. Some places like Gamestop will have a small section on used PC games, but they are often old games that just have a simple CD key check that comes with the game regardless, in modern day where you have online activations and games tied to accounts, its an entirely different kettle of fish. You have no guarantee that this user doesn't have some games tied to his EA account or whatnot, and whoever buys it would not be able to play the game anyways. There are far too many games with their own unique activation, accounts, etc, even through steam, to allow selling PC games.

so it's okay to prevent someone from reselling their games because it *might* be a scam. we don't know if that guy was about to scam anyone anyway.

I did not mean to necessarily imply he would scam, but its a reason its justified that steam has such a clause, it prevents this sort of behavior.

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Shielder7

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#32 Shielder7
Member since 2006 • 5191 Posts
Just another reason why DD is a ripoff.
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Couth_

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#33 Couth_
Member since 2008 • 10369 Posts
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Couth_"] Actually it states: You are entitled to use the Software for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Software to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Software to others without the prior written consent of Valve or or (iii) exploit the Software or any of its parts for any commercial purpose. He had obvious intent.

Intent is not the same as action.

So better to ban the account after someone pays $1800 for it? While this guy makes $1800 and is free to go. There's a reason the policy is in place the way it is. The guy deserves it
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SkyWard20

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#34 SkyWard20
Member since 2009 • 4509 Posts
This guy should have known it's against TOS to sell your account. To post a thread (on steam's message board no less) asking how much your account is worth is just asking for your account to be banned. lawlessx
No one cares if it's against their TOS. I want to know if what they're doing is against the law.
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DarkLink77

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#35 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts
[QUOTE="Couth_"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Couth_"] Actually it states: You are entitled to use the Software for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Software to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Software to others without the prior written consent of Valve or or (iii) exploit the Software or any of its parts for any commercial purpose. He had obvious intent.

Intent is not the same as action.

So better to ban the account after someone pays $1800 for it? While this guy makes $1800 and is free to go. There's a reason the policy is in place the way it is. The guy deserves it

Yes, because reselling games is wrong. :roll:
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110million

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#36 110million
Member since 2008 • 14910 Posts
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Couth_"] Actually it states: You are entitled to use the Software for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Software to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Software to others without the prior written consent of Valve or or (iii) exploit the Software or any of its parts for any commercial purpose. He had obvious intent.

Intent is not the same as action.

Did you read the quote? "Obviously I don't want someone to pay $1,800 for my account," the gamer wrote on Reddit. "I'm looking at money of course, not full price considering I bought most of them on sale, but maybe we can come to some sort of deal...Of course if someone actually takes me up I'll be removing my credit card information from the account, along with my friends list." Its not like he just asked "what is my account worth?", he very seemed very willing to sell it, whether he got stopped before or after doesn't really seem to matter.
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fastr

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#37 fastr
Member since 2010 • 2100 Posts
They just created a pirate.
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dRuGGeRnaUt

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#38 dRuGGeRnaUt
Member since 2006 • 1637 Posts
this is not "intent" anymore than someone asking how to commit a murder on the internet.. if no crime takes place, its hard to charge ppl with murder. that is EXACTLY what they are doing. This person "asked" or "listed" about selling... same as me saying "i will kill Aquaman!" unless i actually kill said Aquaman, no harm done no dmg... oh wait.. i dont think anyone would care if i Aquaman were killed... if anything the fish could sleep easier.. lol ;)
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110million

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#39 110million
Member since 2008 • 14910 Posts
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Couth_"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Intent is not the same as action.

So better to ban the account after someone pays $1800 for it? While this guy makes $1800 and is free to go. There's a reason the policy is in place the way it is. The guy deserves it

Yes, because reselling games is wrong. :roll:

Breaking a terms of use is wrong when you agreed to it. :| I don't know any PC gamer these days who considers they have any chance of selling a game when they are done with it, I'm a PC gamer with the knowledge that I probably can't sell any of my games, because there are so many other aspects to it beyond console games. When you don't need the disk to play, many things can happen.
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SkyWard20

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#40 SkyWard20
Member since 2009 • 4509 Posts
[QUOTE="Couth_"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Couth_"] Actually it states: You are entitled to use the Software for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Software to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Software to others without the prior written consent of Valve or or (iii) exploit the Software or any of its parts for any commercial purpose. He had obvious intent.

Intent is not the same as action.

So better to ban the account after someone pays $1800 for it? While this guy makes $1800 and is free to go. There's a reason the policy is in place the way it is. The guy deserves it

it doesn't matter. he didn't make 1800% on valve's behalf in the first place so that is a non-issue. the issue is that access to any of his games has been cut, which should be ground for legal action against valve.
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DarkLink77

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#41 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts
[QUOTE="110million"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Couth_"] Actually it states: You are entitled to use the Software for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Software to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Software to others without the prior written consent of Valve or or (iii) exploit the Software or any of its parts for any commercial purpose. He had obvious intent.

Intent is not the same as action.

Did you read the quote? "Obviously I don't want someone to pay $1,800 for my account," the gamer wrote on Reddit. "I'm looking at money of course, not full price considering I bought most of them on sale, but maybe we can come to some sort of deal...Of course if someone actually takes me up I'll be removing my credit card information from the account, along with my friends list." Its not like he just asked "what is my account worth?", he very seemed very willing to sell it, whether he got stopped before or after doesn't really seem to matter.

Didn't happen, though, did it? The account was not actually sold.
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HoolaHoopMan

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#42 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Couth_"] Actually it states: You are entitled to use the Software for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Software to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Software to others without the prior written consent of Valve or or (iii) exploit the Software or any of its parts for any commercial purpose. He had obvious intent.

Intent is not the same as action.

In some cases it is. If you hire an undercover cop to kill your spouse you're going to jail solely on intent to kill.
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SkyWard20

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#44 SkyWard20
Member since 2009 • 4509 Posts

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Couth_"] So better to ban the account after someone pays $1800 for it? While this guy makes $1800 and is free to go. There's a reason the policy is in place the way it is. The guy deserves it110million
Yes, because reselling games is wrong. :roll:

Breaking a terms of use is wrong when you agreed to it. :|

no. some laws should be above any terms of use... I at least hope Valve doesn't have much of a case of enforcing this legally.

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110million

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#45 110million
Member since 2008 • 14910 Posts
[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Couth_"] Actually it states: You are entitled to use the Software for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Software to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Software to others without the prior written consent of Valve or or (iii) exploit the Software or any of its parts for any commercial purpose. He had obvious intent.

Intent is not the same as action.

In some cases it is. If you hire an undercover cop to kill your spouse you're going to jail solely on intent to kill.

Lets not compare digital games and murder...
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#46 110million
Member since 2008 • 14910 Posts

You guys know his account was re-enabled, right?

Slashkice
Well this thread now seems silly.
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#47 SkyWard20
Member since 2009 • 4509 Posts
[QUOTE="Slashkice"]

You guys know his account was re-enabled, right?

110million
Well this thread now seems silly.

it means they admitted to being wrong.
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#48 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts
[QUOTE="110million"][QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Intent is not the same as action.

In some cases it is. If you hire an undercover cop to kill your spouse you're going to jail solely on intent to kill.

Lets not compare digital games and murder...

Well intent is a large part of LAW, no matter what "crime" is being examined.
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#49 Ballroompirate
Member since 2005 • 26695 Posts

[QUOTE="IronBass"]We really need to start reading the ToU we agree with.DarkLink77
If companies would write them in English instead of legalspeak, maybe I'd be able to.

Haha that made my day, so sad cause its true also.

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#50 110million
Member since 2008 • 14910 Posts
[QUOTE="110million"][QUOTE="Slashkice"]

You guys know his account was re-enabled, right?

SkyWard20
Well this thread now seems silly.

it means they admitted to being wrong.

Valve does more good than bad, they often let people get away with things. Lots of posts on places like reddit where someone tells valve they bought a game and then it went down in price a few days later, and they get money back in their steam wallet for it, or people say they accidentally bought games or whatnot, and as long as you don't do it a lot, they will go to the trouble of removing the game from your account and giving money back. Its stuff like this that makes me trust their judgment on things such as this, if they believed he should have it back, they would have re-enabled it, it probably took some discussion, they had no such requirement to re-enable it.