Is the ps4 just for sloppy programmers?

This topic is locked from further discussion.

#1 Edited by Celtic_34 (1207 posts) -

I was reading last night the ps3 actually had 2.1 teraflops of floating point performance. And could display like 50 billion dots per second. The ps4 is basically the same, but you now have 8 independant cores running at a lower clock and higher memory bandwith which should lead to more multitasking abilities etc...

Isn't fpu performance and how much you can display pretty much the determining factor pretty much? I know the cell wasn't an out of order processor and the rsx was pretty limited as far as getting that kind of fp performance as far as certain kinds of tasks but if you can program for it you can program for it which should equal the same performance no?

obviously ps4 also has a faster bluray drive and bandwith and everything in between. Anyone want to explain how and why the ps4 will be 10 times more powerful as Jack tretton put it?

The xbox one is a bump up from the 360 but again its just more cores at a lower clock 2 of which will be utililized by the OS.

Anyways was looking at footage of uncharted 3 vs watchdogs and i dont see a huge difference in quality. Seems like we should just start seeing more consistency in games across teh board and higher bandwith between devices. Kind of like what last gen should have been. But is this really next gen?

#2 Posted by farrell2k (5031 posts) -

First off, it's got a video card almost as powerful as a HD7850, so right there it is at least 7x as powerful as the PS3. The CPU, I don't know.

#3 Posted by lglz1337 (2835 posts) -

tormentos knows the answer.

you wait

oh and never listen to Ronvalencia

#4 Edited by Celtic_34 (1207 posts) -

What we are doing for developers is basically what the nfl is doing for the players where they are changing the rules and coddling these guys. More money. Less work. Is it really getting better though?

#5 Edited by Cali3350 (16130 posts) -

FPU Performance as a generic metric is useless. Peak FPU performance requires a perfectly calibrated pipeline of instruction issues to never cause a branch prediction miss and never fill a blank op in your pipeline. Its not possible.

Besides that, Integer OPS are more common then FPU ops for almost all code.

Nvidia and AMD GPU's have 6 Teraflops+ of FPU performance but your computer is still run by a CPU.

The PS4 CPU is out of order, meaning it can more easily fill its pipeline with valid data without having no op clocks, its has a significantly better branch predictor, meaning it much more rarely has to flush its cache, and best of all its compiler is based on GNU, meaning its already wildly supported and optimized.

In real world use cases, the CPU is a huge upgrade.

Also, you are completely discounting the GPU's of these machines. They are capable in hardware of far more than the previous generations.

#6 Posted by John_Matherson (2031 posts) -

Oh God.

/thread.

#7 Posted by edwardecl (1718 posts) -

Even if the CPU was a downgrade (which it is not) tasks can be offloaded to the GPU.

#8 Edited by Gue1 (9006 posts) -

PS3 2.1 Tflops? Where did you read that nonsense TC? lol

PS3 has a max output of 230 Gflops.

#9 Edited by Heil68 (42461 posts) -

Naw, more like the PlayStation®4 system opens the door to an incredible journey through immersive new gaming worlds and a deeply connected gaming community. PS4™ puts gamers first with an astounding launch lineup and over 180 games in development. Play amazing top-tier blockbusters and innovative indie hits on PS4™. Developer Inspired, Gamer Focus.

PlayStation®4. Greatness Awaits™

#10 Edited by lglz1337 (2835 posts) -
#11 Posted by clyde46 (43269 posts) -
@Cali3350 said:

FPU Performance as a generic metric is useless. Peak FPU performance requires a perfectly calibrated pipeline of instruction issues to never cause a branch prediction miss and never fill a blank op in your pipeline. Its not possible.

Besides that, Integer OPS are more common then FPU ops for almost all code.

Nvidia and AMD GPU's have 6 Teraflops+ of FPU performance but your computer is still run by a CPU.

The PS4 CPU is out of order, meaning it can more easily fill its pipeline with valid data without having no op clocks, its has a significantly better branch predictor, meaning it much more rarely has to flush its cache, and best of all its compiler is based on GNU, meaning its already wildly supported and optimized.

In real world use cases, the CPU is a huge upgrade.

Also, you are completely discounting the GPU's of these machines. They are capable in hardware of far more than the previous generations.

/Thread

#12 Posted by Gue1 (9006 posts) -

@lglz1337 said:

tormentos knows the answer.

you wait

oh and never listen to Ronvalencia

you're right considering ron was wrong about everything concerning the PS4 and XB1 spec wise. Even about he CPU he said so many times it was faster on the XB1 while benchmarks proved him wrong too. The PS4 is more powerful than the XB1 at every single component piece by piece from bandwidth to CPU to GPU, everything. And the thing it was so obvious but people kept clinging to some stuff Carmack said about both consoles being equal but at the end they did have similar components but the gap is much bigger than the PS3 vs X360.

I used to respect ron but not anymore. He posts a lot of links and charts that half the time don't have anything to do with what's being discussed like expecting that you don't understand anything so he wins the argument by default.

#13 Posted by k2theswiss (16586 posts) -

don't think you understand the logic of the hardware

#14 Edited by mynamesdenvrmax (2191 posts) -

@Heil68 said:

Naw, more like the PlayStation®4 system opens the door to an incredible journey through immersive new gaming worlds and a deeply connected gaming community. PS4™ puts gamers first with an astounding launch lineup and over 180 games in development. Play amazing top-tier blockbusters and innovative indie hits on PS4™. Developer Inspired, Gamer Focus.

PlayStation®4. Greatness Awaits™

I hope this was a joke. If not, do you want a wet nap and a place to spit? You added the "TM" and "R" to your posts? I can't tell if that was a commercial or an opinion. If anyone here said that about any other corporation than Sony, they'd have a bounty put on them.

#15 Edited by Celtic_34 (1207 posts) -

I do understand but was more asking the question. The ps4 and xbox one are traditional pc architecture with x86 archictecture with a high powered gpu and a lot of memory bandwith between the two. The ps3 was a single cpu core with 7 spe's attached for loading specific tasks like media streaming and physics calculations. It also didn't have the memory bandwith or features to maxmize it's potential. It's a very differnet design.

Right now we aren't seeing a huge difference in real world performance though. Games look so good as it is it's difficult to tell. You should be able to achieve more textures at higher framerates on the ps4 though. Plus the cpu should be much more capable of handling different tasks at the same time.

FPU performance is FPU performance though. Whether you can achieve that in a real world setting is something else.

I just don't get Jack Tretton saying it's 10 times more powerful? Seems like marketing speak to me. It's a nice evolution and what the ps3 should have been imo. It will also serve well with developers which is what you want if you want to succeed. Who's to say they couldn't have done something even more radical though?

#16 Edited by Dreams-Visions (26569 posts) -

The OP in this topic gave me a headache. As does the post above me.

It's like you're eye-balling it. Forget the millions more pixels being pushed through resolution. Forget the advanced lighting and anti-aliasing technologies. Forget the enhanced physics calculating engines, rendering processes, shading, and mapping techniques.

Forget all that. Let's eyeball it. "Looks about the same!"

Your level of understanding of this topic is so embryonic, it's difficult to engage you in conversation at all. You need to study the subject and understand what it is you want to ask questions about so that at the very least, you can ask intelligent questions. If you'd like some links to at least the basics, I'll be happy to provide, as well as some book links.

#17 Posted by Celtic_34 (1207 posts) -

As far as the ps4 its basically more powerful than the xbone one in every wayt. They are the same architecture. It also isn't tapping an addition cpu to control 2 operating systems. The ps4 has faster memory. A custom cpu and a more featured gpu. The difference is going to come in the apps and how they are utilized. I personally have no interest in the stuff microsoft is trying to sell me and just wnat to play games so the ps4 fits my needs.

#18 Edited by Celtic_34 (1207 posts) -

@Dreams-Visions said:

The OP in this topic gave me a headache. As does the post above me.

It's like you're eye-balling it. Forget the millions more pixels being pushed through resolution. Forget the advanced lighting and anti-aliasing technologies. Forget the enhanced physics calculating engines.

Forget all that. Let's eyeball it. "Looks about the same!"

I think you are eyeballing it because I didn't say that and mentioned all the additional features. I was actually agreeing that the ps4 should be able to achieve much greater heights as far as performance where the ps3 in a real world setting was not. I also didnt forget the dual shock 4 and the faster connections everywhere. The bluray drive itself is much faster and newer. It's also going to be much easier for developers to get their hands around.

I'm just not sure i'm getting 10 times faster. we will see i guess but not sure anyone has explained how it is.

#19 Edited by dbtbandit67 (353 posts) -

@Celtic_34: Yes, it's next gen. Have you had a chance to see the PS4 in person yet?

The performance and graphical improvement, from the PS3, is comparable to a PC Gamer upgrading their video card at the same price.

Since it also comes with a new CPU and OS and RAM, I'd say it's even a better deal.

#20 Posted by PAL360 (26524 posts) -

The infinite power of PS3 strikes again!

#21 Edited by Celtic_34 (1207 posts) -

@dbtbandit67 said:

@Celtic_34: Yes, it's next gen. Have you had a chance to see the PS4 in person yet?

The performance and graphical improvement, from the PS3, is comparable to a PC Gamer upgrading their video card at the same price.

Since it also comes with a new CPU and OS and RAM, I'd say it's even a better deal.

I own one and love it. I'm just a bit concerned that because it's traditional architecture that it wont have the same staying power as some of these previous consoles. It seems rock solid though adn everything it should be so i'm not that concerned.

I even went as far to sell my ps3 and 360 to pay for it and am just making sure it was the right thing to do. It seems like the ps4 basically combines everything that was good about both and takes it to a new level.

#22 Posted by eNT1TY (965 posts) -

Responding to Gue1 in regards to the ron vs torm everlasting arguments... maybe i am a dummy but ron never said x1 was stronger even with all the copy/pasted charts and such. He even acknowledged pre launch that ps4 was stronger. What he wanted to illustrate was that the gap wasn't as big as tormentos suggested or even big at all by taking into account ms proprietary methods, techniques and/or solutions for accomplishing tasks that would serve to negate any hardware disadvantage. They both failed to convey their points of view clearly to each other and thus continue to argue about different things. Ron may have tried to undersell the spread of the gap as launch approached but i don't recall ever seeing him dismiss its presence. Torm on the other hand likes to think a vast valley separates the 2 making one significantly stronger than the other rather than moderately stronger.

#23 Edited by Celtic_34 (1207 posts) -

@PAL360 said:

The infinite power of PS3 strikes again!

you have to admit some of the ps3 exclusives are amazing and like something from the future. I would even go as far to say consistantly they are that way. Demons Souls, Uncharted 3, MLB the show, Last of us, Infamous 2, down the line are ahead of their time. I'm not seeing this jump in graphics that leads me to believe it is 10 times mroe powerful. It seems really good across the board even still.

Cleaner textures, higher framerates. Different color pallete. Certain things are more flushed out and running at a higher resolution with more going on on screen. But even killzone which is probably the best of the lot right now isn't leaps and bounds better than what's on current consoles. If you look at watchdogs and compare it to gta 5 its the same thing. Does it look more real and less cartooney? Yes. That's not an artistic choice either. they are able to make it look more real. but there is more detail in a lot of the current gen titles currently and they are more developed.

I'm not saying hte new consoles aren't better. The ps4 feels next gen. But it's still just a pc wrapped in a black box. Definately more optimized. Playing some of the videos are so crisp on the ps4 where i cant even get my i5 haswell to stop from stuttering around.

#24 Posted by kemar7856 (11506 posts) -

the higher power is needed for AI calculations,physics,textures,lighting I admit it doesn't seem like a huge leap from the top games on ps3 for the inital games released but if you look at the tech demos the potential is there and its far exceeds ps3

#25 Edited by remiks00 (1497 posts) -

The OP in this topic gave me a headache. As does the post above me.

It's like you're eye-balling it. Forget the millions more pixels being pushed through resolution. Forget the advanced lighting and anti-aliasing technologies. Forget the enhanced physics calculating engines, rendering processes, shading, and mapping techniques.

Forget all that. Let's eyeball it. "Looks about the same!"

Your level of understanding of this topic is so embryonic, it's difficult to engage you in conversation at all. You need to study the subject and understand what it is you want to ask questions about so that at the very least, you can ask intelligent questions. If you'd like some links to at least the basics, I'll be happy to provide, as well as some book links.

^ This

#26 Posted by Celtic_34 (1207 posts) -

I think dreamvisions is talking out of his butt and doesn't understand the topic. I probably know more than he does which is the issue. Stop bitching and come up with a valid response. Do you know my level of understanding of the topic you little twit?

#27 Edited by PAL360 (26524 posts) -

@Celtic_34 said:

@PAL360 said:

The infinite power of PS3 strikes again!

you have to admit some of the ps3 exclusives are amazing and like something from the future. I would even go as far to say consistantly they are that way. Demons Souls, Uncharted 3, MLB the show, Last of us, Infamous 2, down the line are ahead of their time. I'm not seeing this jump in graphics that leads me to believe it is 10 times mroe powerful. It seems really good across the board even still.

Cleaner textures, higher framerates. Different color pallete. Certain things are more flushed out and running at a higher resolution with more going on on screen. But even killzone which is probably the best of the lot right now isn't leaps and bounds better than what's on current consoles. If you look at watchdogs and compare it to gta 5 its the same thing. Does it look more real and less cartooney? Yes. That's not an artistic choice either. they are able to make it look more real. but there is more detail in a lot of the current gen titles currently and they are more developed.

I'm not saying hte new consoles aren't better. The ps4 feels next gen. But it's still just a pc wrapped in a black box. Definately more optimized. Playing some of the videos are so crisp on the ps4 where i cant even get my i5 haswell to stop from stuttering around.

I admit that some PS3 exclusives do look great, but i can't admit they look 'like something from the future' or 'ahead of their time' lol

They look as good as they do because of a clever use of hardware mixed with very good art direction. But nothing you didn't see in some 360 games too and, obviously, many PC games.

As for PS3 vs PS4, you should compare their launch games, not the best on PS3 against the worst on PS4. PS4 games in 5 years will make Shadow Fall and BF4 look almost one gen old, just like TLoU compared to launch PS3 games.

#28 Posted by The_Last_Ride (68582 posts) -

How is it lazy if it is easier on both the x1 and PS4? It's a win-win

#29 Posted by jsmoke03 (12456 posts) -

im leaving the thread...its too smart for me =/

#30 Edited by Celtic_34 (1207 posts) -

@PAL360 said:

@Celtic_34 said:

@PAL360 said:

The infinite power of PS3 strikes again!

you have to admit some of the ps3 exclusives are amazing and like something from the future. I would even go as far to say consistantly they are that way. Demons Souls, Uncharted 3, MLB the show, Last of us, Infamous 2, down the line are ahead of their time. I'm not seeing this jump in graphics that leads me to believe it is 10 times mroe powerful. It seems really good across the board even still.

Cleaner textures, higher framerates. Different color pallete. Certain things are more flushed out and running at a higher resolution with more going on on screen. But even killzone which is probably the best of the lot right now isn't leaps and bounds better than what's on current consoles. If you look at watchdogs and compare it to gta 5 its the same thing. Does it look more real and less cartooney? Yes. That's not an artistic choice either. they are able to make it look more real. but there is more detail in a lot of the current gen titles currently and they are more developed.

I'm not saying hte new consoles aren't better. The ps4 feels next gen. But it's still just a pc wrapped in a black box. Definately more optimized. Playing some of the videos are so crisp on the ps4 where i cant even get my i5 haswell to stop from stuttering around.

I admit that some PS3 exclusives do look great, but i can't admit they look 'like something from the future' or 'ahead of their time' lol

They look as good as they do because of a clever use of hardware mixed with very good art direction. But nothing you didn't see in some 360 games too and, obviously, many PC games.

As for PS3 vs PS4, you should compare their launch games, not the best on PS3 against the worst on PS4. PS4 games in 5 years will make Shadow Fall and BF4 look almost one gen old, just like TLoU compared to launch PS3 games.

The whole reason I asked this question though was because last gen every mainstream developer it seemed like said the ps3 was too difficult to develop for. Yet companies like Naughty Dog were able to make some really amazing games when they delved into the hardware. I'm just wondering what EA's excuse this gen is going to be if Madden still looks and plays exactly the same and has the same issues it always has had.\

Developers b asically got what they were clammoring for. Ease, speed and cost of development on the ps4 should be right up their alley. So is madden now going to be better? Or are they still going to be lazy? Some of these developers really are great. I know people will say these developers work really hard. But some of them really don't. EA is one of them.

It basically took EA all last gen to get even remotely up to speed with madden, and the ps3 still received crappy ports of the game. So now since they have the hardware to really make a good football game they should be able to right?

#31 Edited by PAL360 (26524 posts) -

@Celtic_34 said:

@PAL360 said:

@Celtic_34 said:

@PAL360 said:

The infinite power of PS3 strikes again!

you have to admit some of the ps3 exclusives are amazing and like something from the future. I would even go as far to say consistantly they are that way. Demons Souls, Uncharted 3, MLB the show, Last of us, Infamous 2, down the line are ahead of their time. I'm not seeing this jump in graphics that leads me to believe it is 10 times mroe powerful. It seems really good across the board even still.

Cleaner textures, higher framerates. Different color pallete. Certain things are more flushed out and running at a higher resolution with more going on on screen. But even killzone which is probably the best of the lot right now isn't leaps and bounds better than what's on current consoles. If you look at watchdogs and compare it to gta 5 its the same thing. Does it look more real and less cartooney? Yes. That's not an artistic choice either. they are able to make it look more real. but there is more detail in a lot of the current gen titles currently and they are more developed.

I'm not saying hte new consoles aren't better. The ps4 feels next gen. But it's still just a pc wrapped in a black box. Definately more optimized. Playing some of the videos are so crisp on the ps4 where i cant even get my i5 haswell to stop from stuttering around.

I admit that some PS3 exclusives do look great, but i can't admit they look 'like something from the future' or 'ahead of their time' lol

They look as good as they do because of a clever use of hardware mixed with very good art direction. But nothing you didn't see in some 360 games too and, obviously, many PC games.

As for PS3 vs PS4, you should compare their launch games, not the best on PS3 against the worst on PS4. PS4 games in 5 years will make Shadow Fall and BF4 look almost one gen old, just like TLoU compared to launch PS3 games.

The whole reason I asked this question though was because last gen every mainstream developer it seemed like said the ps3 was too difficult to develop for. Yet companies like Naughty Dog were able to make some really amazing games when they delved into the hardware. I'm just wondering what EA's excuse this gen is going to be if Madden still looks and plays exactly the same and has the same issues it always has had.\

Developers b asically got what they were clammoring for. Ease, speed and cost of development on the ps4 should be right up their alley. So is madden now going to be better? Or are they still going to be lazy? Some of these developers really are great. I know people will say these developers work really hard. But some of them really don't. EA is one of them.

It basically took EA all last gen to get even remotely up to speed with madden, and the ps3 still received crappy ports of the game. So now since they have the hardware to really make a good football game they should be able to right?

There's no negative way to look at friendly hardware. Lazy devs will still be lazy, but they will reach the same, or better, results in less time and will less costs. Proactive devs will make even better games. There's still place for some experimentation, something most devs wouldn't dare with complicated hardware.

The only 'con' i see by having easy to develop for hardware, is the fact devs will max it out sooner...but that's not exactly a bad thing!

#32 Posted by kinectthedots (1269 posts) -

@Gue1 said:

@lglz1337 said:

tormentos knows the answer.

you wait

oh and never listen to Ronvalencia

you're right considering ron was wrong about everything concerning the PS4 and XB1 spec wise. Even about he CPU he said so many times it was faster on the XB1 while benchmarks proved him wrong too. The PS4 is more powerful than the XB1 at every single component piece by piece from bandwidth to CPU to GPU, everything. And the thing it was so obvious but people kept clinging to some stuff Carmack said about both consoles being equal but at the end they did have similar components but the gap is much bigger than the PS3 vs X360.

I used to respect ron but not anymore. He posts a lot of links and charts that half the time don't have anything to do with what's being discussed like expecting that you don't understand anything so he wins the argument by default.

You've done it now, he's going to respond to you with a bunch of links.

#33 Edited by ronvalencia (15106 posts) -

@Celtic_34 said:

I was reading last night the ps3 actually had 2.1 teraflops of floating point performance. And could display like 50 billion dots per second. The ps4 is basically the same, but you now have 8 independant cores running at a lower clock and higher memory bandwith which should lead to more multitasking abilities etc...

Isn't fpu performance and how much you can display pretty much the determining factor pretty much? I know the cell wasn't an out of order processor and the rsx was pretty limited as far as getting that kind of fp performance as far as certain kinds of tasks but if you can program for it you can program for it which should equal the same performance no?

obviously ps4 also has a faster bluray drive and bandwith and everything in between. Anyone want to explain how and why the ps4 will be 10 times more powerful as Jack tretton put it?

The xbox one is a bump up from the 360 but again its just more cores at a lower clock 2 of which will be utililized by the OS.

Anyways was looking at footage of uncharted 3 vs watchdogs and i dont see a huge difference in quality. Seems like we should just start seeing more consistency in games across teh board and higher bandwith between devices. Kind of like what last gen should have been. But is this really next gen?

~The 1.8 TFLOPS number from NVIDIA RSX includes it's fix function hardware.

1.84 TFLOPS number for PS4 is just for programmable stream processor side not including it's fix function hardware e.g. texture decompression, triangle setup, tessellation hardware (i.e. 1.6 billion triangles per second calculator), ROPS** and 'etc'. A CPU emulating GPU's fix function hardware is not efficient.

AMD GCNs also has pretty good programmable integer processing e.g. alt-coin mining and encryption/decryption/password cracking.

**Includes the following

1. Multiple MSAA processors with floating point data and integer processing.

2. Multiple Z-ROP units with floating point data and integer processing. Also includes Z compression processor.

3. Color-ROP units with floating point data and integer processing. Also includes color compression processor.

AMD GCN also includes other co-processors for video encoding, decoding, DRM and a cut-down X86 style MMU hardware. Some AMD GCN has AMD's TruAudio hardware.

Intel Larrabee and IBM CELL has shown that the "GPU" is not made from just from the programmable stream processor units. The "GPU" IP are heavily patented by AMD and NVIDIA.

#34 Posted by ronvalencia (15106 posts) -

@lglz1337 said:

tormentos knows the answer.

you wait

oh and never listen to Ronvalencia

Let's convert system wars into personality war.

Since you started this personality war, I'll continue it.

Example of Tormentos' memory bandwidth math stupidity.

From http://au.gamespot.com/forums/topic/29451500/xbox-one--7790-confirmed-by-xbox-one-architec.

X1 can add memory bandwidth since it has two memory pools (think of L-shaped multi-memory controller setups) while PS4 has a single memory pool.

You can join Tormentos' stupidity camp.

#35 Posted by EZs (1309 posts) -

ronvalencia VS. tormentos

Hell yeah!