Is Stealth Only Genre Already Dead???

Note:

I'm going to discuss Stealth genre here. So, this thread is about the discussion of Stealth games only. There is no room for the discussion of Action Stealth here (apart from few examples that I will give here to prove my point, when necessary) and there is also no room for those who are not into Stealth games and prefer games that don't punish you for killing enemies.

It's OK to have different taste in gaming than the other guy but here we Stealth fans are going to talk about the said genre, and won't be having a discussion about Action Stealth. We also won't be listening to people crying about Stealth games for being "boring" because they get their asses kicked and prefer Action Stealth games instead, and think that Action heavy focus is a good thing. That's discussion for another day.

On Topic:

I think the last good high profile Stealth game that I played was released freaking ten years ago, and it was Splinter Cell: Double Agent. As we all know Splinter Cell: Conviction was over hyped mess. It had a potential of being best in the series. but instead it ended up being one of the biggest disappointments for a lot of fans of the series.

Level design in the game was absolutely terrible, there were invisible walls everywhere, your pistol had unlimited ammo, there were objectives that forced you to kill every single enemy in that area and so on. The point is,,, as a Stealth game, it was a complete disaster.

Fast forward to 2013, we got Splinter Cell: Blacklist. A game that was improvement over the Conviction but still an inferior game compared to early Splinter Cell games as far as Stealth gameplay is concerned. The game had a bit better level design but still not memorable.

There were still invisible walls, which is a complete joke in a Stealth game. I was like "WTF" when in one of the early missions I tried to head towards a street to infiltrate a building from sideways, and the game pushed me back towards the main entrance full of guards everywhere, because of invisible wall.

Invisible wall in a Stealth game? Are you kidding me? There were still some objectives in the game where you are forced to confront enemies and either disarm them or kill them. The only memorable mission in the game was towards the end, where the player dodges several lasers inside an elevator shaft. That was easily one of the best experiences in Stealth games around.

The point here is that Splinter Cell: Blacklist was an Action Stealth (or call it Stealth Action) game primarily, unlike its predecessors that were pure Stealth experiences. The reason why I mentioned Splinter Cell here is because it was one of the last Stealth franchises around and the world was already moving on and leaving a lot of genres behind including the said genre.

On other hand Thief: Deadly Shadows was the last actual Thief game. Yes, it was dumbed down compared to the previous games, yes it was glitchy as hell, yes it had quite a lot half baked features and the game lacked overall polish, but make no mistake, this was an actual Thief title and a worthy sequel to The Metal Age, which is considered as the best in the genre and the series.

Then we got a trash in 2014, that was pretending to be a Thief game but it was anything but Thief. The game tried to copy every bad design choice found modern games and past it in one game. In the end what we got was a bad game with bad mission design, bad levels, bad story and bad characters.

Video Link

The game was targeted for dumb audiences and what really sucks is that, it wasn't even a good mindless game for dumb audiences. It was a poorly put together game with bad gameplay and poor writing. There were times when you were blocked by a single chair and were forced to take another route because Garrett the Master Thief couldn't climb or move that chair. These features were available in The Dark Project, almost EIGHTEEN years ago, but not in this game,,, because reasons.

We also got Dishonored. I am really excited for Dishonored 2, not because Dishonored was a masterpiece, but because it showed potential. It was decent but more importantly it showed the possibility of its sequels becoming something much better because of the feedback from community, after the release of the original title.

Now I understand that a lot of people think that it was an amazing game and one of the best among Stealth genre, but as a player who've played original Thief games, and early Splinter Cell games as well as Tenchu series, I can't help but think that Dishonored was Thief: Lite Edition. Level design is not as good as in The Metal Age and more importantly, it was also an Action Stealth game that didn't prevent you from killing enemies. TBH, the game had far more exciting killing animations and action upgrades, than it had stealth animations and stealth upgrades,

On other hand, Hitman was never a Stealth only franchise. You could always kill your target or complete other objectives by sneaking through the whole level or killing every single one of your enemies that were in your way. But the problem with Absolution was that it managed to dumb even THAT franchise down by making it more linear and cinematic experience. It really shows how much modern industry is desperate to leave Stealth and its most important pillar "non linearity" behind.

In recent years we also got Styx: Master of Shadows that many consider as one of the better Stealth only games. The problem with Styx on launch was that it had bad controls and poor ledge detection. Poor ledge detection for a game that contains a lot of platforming is not a good idea, which became one of the reasons why the game was poorly received on launch despite having a good story, Stealth only focus, great level design and a lot of secrets.

But the good news is that developers later patched the game and fixed its controls, ledge detection and other issues that the game had. In the end it turned out to be a pretty good Stealth game, and its sequel is already in the works. But nobody knows if the devs will take the feedback seriously and will deliver a well polished worthy successor on launch instead of a buggy mess. Either way, I'm interested.

So it seems like Stealth genre overall is not doing so well, especially in mid-tier/AAA market. So, my question is, do you think that Stealth genre is already dead and we will never get a well made Stealth game ever again because pubs want to make more money, and a lot of people whine about Stealth games kicking their ass when they are detected, which leads to less sales? I find it pretty odd when people complain about lack of "good" combat in a Stealth game. Discuss.

Huh? On stealth HITMAN just released, Dishonoured 2 TBA. Last year MGS V PP was solid stealth game.

Hitman is not released. its in early access. it will be out next year january

MGS5 absolutely suck

only 2 comnig out are deus ex md and dishonored 2 and they are not even pure stealth game. that and im excited for sniper elite 4.

whatever you say we got to agree rite? :)

No, but it has become a niche genre.

Hmm, I didn't get all the way through your OP, but a couple of things regarding SC here.

The Splinter Cell games previous to Conviction/Blacklist weren't "pure stealth experiences" as you put it, unless you wanted them to be. Like for instance, you brought up Double Agent. I can gun my way through most of Double Agent. People LOVE Chaos Theory. I can successfully go guns blazing through most of Chaos Theory. The action in Blacklist is more satisfying than the past games if you choose to play that way, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it's no different from the previous entries in that you can go full stealth or action if you want. Conviction is the only game in the series that regularly forces action.

Beyond that, good lord man, when is the last time you played Double Agent? I did my SC marathon a month or two ago and that was the one game I couldn't push myself through. It's pretty terrible save for a couple of decent missions. Far inferior to Blacklist in almost every respect.

Also, you can't really start griping about invisible walls in a Conviction/Blacklist if you're just going to brush them aside in the previous games. There were plenty of "wtf" moments all throughout the earlier games like that. Remember in SC1, that mission where you're on the balconies, the street is something like 10 feet down, but you die if you try to drop? Or the herp derp, here is a piece of wood, I can no longer move through this hallway?

I think you're looking at the old games through rose tinted shades while putting the newer games under a microscope. A good series play through might put things in perspective for you.

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Anyways, there are very few "true" stealth games out there if we're holding the games to a tight definition here. Most stealth games allow for some degree of action, I find it pointless trying to draw an arbitrary imaginary line between what's acceptable and what's not.

If I can play through the majority of a game stealth and it's satisfying to do so, then that's a "true" stealth game for me.

If you're asking if the "pure" stealth genre is dead, well then yeah, it was never alive to begin with lol.

Read thread description gentlemen. Those are Action Stealth games.

So where do we draw the line then? I can gun my way through Chaos Theory, is that an Action Stealth game now?

I dont like trying to compartmentalize stealth games either. Even in Deadly Shadows you can go ham with the blackjack and other weapons. So how do you decide what is too much?

I think the first Splinter Cell required pure stealth but I cant remember its been too long.

There is a stealth game coming out on steam called Shadwen you can download the demo right now

Yeah,,, I know about it. It's made by FrozenByte. Hope it's good.

You can not gun your way through Chaos Theory. There are plenty missions where the game ends if you kill someone and in some cases even if you are detected by a single guy. Direct confrontation is discouraged especially in harder difficulties. Even in Double Agent, on hard difficulty, you are not allowed to kill anyone and you don't receive bullets either. Compare that to Conviction's hard difficulty where you still have unlimited supply of ammo.

Hmm, yeah, no dice bro. I play these games a lot lol.

Yes, aside from a few scenarios, you can gun your way through most of CT. I just played this game not even two months ago, you're not gonna BS me on this one. Alerts? On the 2nd mission of the game Lambert and Sam joke about it. It's not as strict as you remember at all.

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Not allowed to kill in Double Agent? Serious bro? You're encouraged to do so very often lol.

At one point, early on, the game even rubs your nose in it.

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Now if you're going to shift the goal posts here and bring up higher difficulties, then we'd have to include the one series you were trying to exclude from this thread, MGS. European Extreme difficulty. BOOM. Instant fail state upon detection.

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Every time you and I get into these stealth game discussions, you try to draw these arbitrary lines as to what does and does not constitute a "True" stealth game. It's not that I'm happy to point out the inconsistencies or contradictions in your view points, I'd just like for you to draw a definite line. At what point does the ability to incapacitate your enemies become too much? I'm genuinely curious.

From what I've seen though, reading between the lines, it goes like this.

- If the option for action is actually fun and satisfying? Not a true stealth game.

- If the option for action sucks? OMG true stealth game lol.

I don't think a game should be excluded for handling both aspects well, but that seems to be your point of view. Similar to how you call the Souls games hack nd slash rather than rpgs simply because they actually have good combat unlike many ARPGs.

Don't tell me you play Stealth games on Normal difficulty. Even in Thief, you can kill enemies in Normal difficulty, even though direct confrontation is still discouraged. On hardest difficulty, you have extra objective "Don't Kill Any One".

Just watch the whole video and you'll see what I'm talking about. Some clips are funny on purpose but you'll get the point. So, your "gun your way through" excuse is just wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfXW7UIwtvo

Expecting a true pure Stealth game in this day and age is nonsensical , let's admit that.

It should be both stealth and action. Because simply ppl like action way more and after all publishers' main priority is money !

Anyways, i'm in line with you , unless we consider Action stealth games as stealth games , i mean you can pretty much play them in Stealth mode if you want. Even in that case , there aren't too many solid games and i really hope upcoming games do well, like Hitman, Dishonored 2 (which i loved the first one) or maybe another SC?

i liked SC Black List , wasn't a "masterpiece" or sth but i liked it, hope they announce another one in E3 this year.

I liked Blacklist too. It was a good game.

@Cloud_imperium:

Which part of that video did you want me to watch exactly? I skipped around and saw a whole lot of player error deaths, not instant fail states based on detection.

I play stealth games from normal difficulty all the way up, but that's just the point here. You're trying to set up rules that suit your argument, you're not being objective here at all.

Let me remind you that you're the guy who would argue against games like MGS2 and MGS3 being "true" stealth games. Yet on their highest difficulties, you instantly get a game over upon detection... so which is it then? Do those games now fit your definition of true stealth games?

Also, the reverse. If I show you a killing spree on Chaos Theories highest difficulty, will it no longer be a "true" stealth game?

Anyways, I don't think you understand how the difficulty levels work in SC. Here is a brief overview of each game.

Seriously man, when is the last time you played these games?

You would think so lol.

Even on highest difficulty, MGS forces you to fight boss battles with rocket launchers. And that video clearly shows that you can't gun your way through Chaos Theory. Some missions fail when detected, others fail if you kill someone, rest of them can't be completed if you are running and gunning on hardest difficulty. That's a fact.

I just don't think this thread is on a level playing field when you're neglecting MGSV, which more or less represents the peak of its genre. It's hard to say the stealth genre is dead and buried when that game came out last year and provided you the option to experience pure and exceptional stealth gameplay.

It also doesn't help when you're using Dishonored as an example of a pure stealth game when it had plenty of action elements.

I didn't use Dishonored as an example for Stealth game. I said, it's Action Stealth game where Action upgrades and animations were more interesting than the Stealth part.

Cool, so... even though boss fights account for less than 5% of MGS games (if even that) we're just going to ignore the actual meat of the games? Gotcha. Because firing a rocket launcher at a boss for a few minutes absolutely negates the long stretches of the core game. lol whatever.

And that video clearly showed me a bunch of player error unless there is some specific part of the video you want me to watch, just let me know what time to skip to. Also, tell me which missions in CT you're talking about specifically. I'll be sure to run through them tonight and get back to you.

Also, less focus on the guns and more focus on incapacitation here. It's important that we're talking about taking an enemy out of the game, not necessarily how they go down. You can clear every enemy out of a level in CT. That's a FACT.

Anyways. You're engaging in a whole lot of double think here. That's all I take issue with. Too many contradictions for me to take this discussion seriously.

How in the same post you said "only 2 coming out" you said Hitman isn't out yet, therefore disproving your own argument.

MGS5 is a bad MGS game, it's a great game.

Btw, you sound like some hipster trying to act like a smug know it all on a topic that you're incorrect on, the fact is that you might not like a game but it's still stealth, it's time for you to stop whining like a baby.

Another relatively recent big stealth game:

And also the sequel to said game is coming this year, Styx: Shards of Darkness

@ConanTheStoner:

Yeah,,, thanks for admitting that the game forces you to fight boss battles, and let's not even mention scenes where you are forced to confront enemies in some sequences.

So, you haven't watched the entire video yet. You should.

The very source that you posted above says this about Chaos Theory's expert difficulty "Extremely difficult: Damage taken is severe", which is also shown in the video. Just two bullets can kill you. So, you can't complete then game guns blazing. Why are you denying this fact? Yes, there are players error and I pointed that out early that some clips/parts are purposely funny, and show failure on player's part. But as stated above, they also show that you can't fool around.

The video also showcases plenty of scenarios where the game ends when he is detected or kills someone. As for other missions where you are allowed to take lethal action, you have to do it way too carefully and you simply can not "gun your way through". Again, as I stated above, it discourages direct confrontation. So, all things considered, your early point that you can complete the entire CT by killing everyone is just wrong. You can't even progress in some missions if you kill someone.

I used to love the Splinter Cell series but really, that's where I got burned out of the stealth genre. I dunno, I guess I just don't have the patience for'em anymore.

Ownage.

He hates MGS series, clearly.

I think you're wrong, on the hardest difficulty Black List was probably only topped by III. It's way better than I/II.

Bro, this is becoming mind numbing lol.

1. Yes, of course I admit to that, why wouldn't I? I'm just pointing out the futility of your argument(s), as well as your contradictions. How are you not seeing this??

2. No, I'm not going to watch a 12 minute video of a guy dying due to player error. I want to see instant fail states for detection or killing. If that video shows examples of those, then do tell me the time stamp, PLEASE. I was kind enough to link you directly to the exact time stamps I wanted you to see in my videos, you could at least return the courtesy.

3. Yes, the source about difficulty does say exactly that. So what are you trying to say then? That if you're not good enough at the game then you will get killed? OF COURSE MAN! Hahahaha. Holy shit. I don't even know where to begin with you lol. When I say player error I'm not talking about the guy dying in stupid or funny ways. I'm saying that he died because of his own gameplay mishaps. The point here is that the game does not go into an instant fail state upon detection or kills. (As an aside, this brings back to Blacklist in which the highest difficulty is even more demanding than CT lulz).

4. All stealth games discourage direct confrontation lol.

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Let's clean the slate here man. Get back to the basics. It's clear that Chaos Theory allows for action, correct? For the majority of the game, no matter the difficulty, taking out your enemies is an option right? Also, most of the time, you're free to rack up a certain amount of alerts, right? The very fact that those aspects of the game hold true automatically keep it from meeting your holy grail definition of a "true" stealth game. It is no longer "purely" stealth. It's just another stealth action game.

It's always an odd discussion, way too much personal investment, not enough objective though.

You're god damn right, Blacklist is fucking brutal on Perfectionist difficulty.

You mean like the original Splinter Cell did on several occasions?

@R10nu: I haven't played original Splinter Cell in a long time, so if there were some places where you are forced to fight enemies then sure why not. We were mainly discussing Chaos Theory, boss battles in MGS and some scenes where you forced to kill, like Metal Gear Rex section in MGS4, freeing Meryl in MGS 1 etc.

Word on the street is, if you play Chaos Theory on the right level, at the right difficulty, under the light of a full moon, rubbing your toes together, wearing a blindfold, it's a pure stealth experience.

@Cloud_imperium:

And Pandora Tomorrow has the Saulnier Cryogenics section. Chaos Theory has stuff like Kokubo Sosho. And you already know about at least one section in Double Agent that posted above.

These forced sections don't take away from the SC games being stealth games. We're just saying that the same applies to MGS. You can't make a mountain out of a molehill for one series and then change your tune when it comes to another. That's all.

Damn, this brings back memories. The Chaos Theory soundtrack is simply incredible. It's a damn fine stealth game too.

Double Standards: The Topic.

This was a fun morning read.

I don't remember any objectives from CT where it says "Kill all enemies".

Mark of the Ninja, Alien Isolation (horror game, but lets get real primarily you are hiding and running away from things, that's a stealth principle), Hitman, and as Conan pointed out (albeit I don't agree completely), Splinter Cell always had a hint of action moves as well, you're just being arbitrary.

Thief is the only series, maybe Tenchu, and even that's pushing it that I would argue was pure stealth, larger issue with the modern games is that they are better at the stealth fueling the action, then the stealth dictating the overall gameplay. Which for all of Metal Gear's previous sins, no, on the highest difficulties, those are absolutely stealth games. Them having boss fights to mix the game up shouldn't be a detriment to the large stretches of gameplay where you do nothing, but hide behind shit. Hitman was always friendly to people who want to dick around, but true mastery of that game is Silent Assassin.

That said I don't need Dishonored to necessarily become a stealth game, I think it's core gameplay loop of making me a killer is perfectly fine. I think it needs to drop the stupid morality system, and it's level design needs a bit more detail, otherwise the many options it presents for some quality killing are hype as ****. Styx sequel is looking nice and tight, and all that.

The other large reality is that stealth games were in vogue, it was a select few franchises that really gave us a stealth fix: Tenchu, Thief, Metal Gear, HItman, and Splinter Cell. There was a syphon filter or whatever in between, but on balance the genre rarely had the blow up other genres are (I could name off more 3d beat-em ups off the top of my head). And looking back on it, that's what made it fucking great. The few stealth games we did get, were wildly fucking different from each other. The core principle was similar, but the execution allowed for different things. Thief was more pure and immersive on a whole different level, Metal Gear several layers of bat shit, Hitman was a sandbox, Splinter Cell was some Clancy styled spyfiction, and Tenchu was fucking ninjas.

Metal Gear Solid V while also being very action friendly, is also probably the most pure stealth friendly that franchise has been since 3, but whatever that franchise is dead now, Splinter Cell has been dumbed the **** down and become more Jason Bourne meets Fringe, and less about the subtleties of that style of play ala Pandorra Tomorrow and Chaos Theory, and the recent Thief is made for assholes. Tenchu has been dead for awhile since From is a Souls game factory, and well Hitman is bouncing back I guess.

It's just been bad design in most cases, but we're seeing more stealth gameplay systems coming back, I would argue it's just a matter of time someone takes a shot at a stealth game proper or two. Hell I still think Eidos Montreal can nail a good Thief game, just back to the drawing board with them.

@putaspongeon: MGS5 is not even a good game. its snoozefest, boring, dull, or what can i describe. its most repetetive game ever. not even ubisoft games are that repetetive. its basically third person far cry with some splinter cell mechanics thrown in.

Now this is an excellent post, I wish, they didn't cut Hitman in pieces though. Waiting for that complete edition. And thanks for staying on topic.

To be fair you sort of went off topic with him, because your initial write up lacks a bit of clarity. Which is really where his beef is, too much focusing on "pure stealth", which I get, I sort of do it too with the genre, because I do think tone wise Splinter Cell is more that at heart than MGS, but he's not wrong that we got stealth games, that's the more important part. The problem is again, centrally outside of the stealth franchises of yesteryear, we're getting action games that have a stealth component, and only Batman is really good at it, to an extent The Last of Us, but not because the stealth is great or something. It's more how it compliments the rest of the game.

As for Hitman, I get why it happened, Hitman for its time was never a triple A production. Splinter Cell was, Metal Gear was (I don't think Kojima knows what a budget is), even Thief, I mean for that era Thief is totally a triple A production. Independent studio or not. Hitman was always sort of this middle market game, and then under Eidos and Square required them to spend a bit of money on Absolution with a new graphics engine. Because that market died on consoles, we had years of the middle market just being ignored on consoles because of the nature of retail from 08-present. So the bet was bigger, which led to some "how do we train people to play Hitman". First round was dumb it down, didn't make a lot of money, okay Square and Eidos go with an episodic format and develop as we go.

It's not ideal, I don't necessarily like it as I like to play my games in one go over the course of a few days or a few weeks, or in some cases a month. Um but it's actually a format that more or less fits Hitman, and in a weird it is teaching people the greater depth of Hitman. Because since they have no other content to play, they are discovering all the different ways to play those initial missions. If the overall game comes together, I don't mind them making money and waiting for a Hitman complete. We get a really good game out of it, and the pub has a method to make a good game successful. I think that's a win-win.

Now, this format would never work for Thief, you'd lose the atmosphere and immersive factor and interconnected nature of those games if you did that. Splinter Cell being mission by mission might work, but it being less of a sandbox would give it some limitations in that format.

Tenchu series are great and Highly underrated stealth ninja action games. Albeit Challenging. Hope they make a new Tenchu game for PS 4 :)

I dunno, seemed to score pretty high

But i dont play scores. look at recent 10/10 games

MGS5 - Terrible

Witcher 3 - Average/slighlty mediocre

lol k, just know you are a very small minority here

@jg4xchamp:

Looks like your post got through somehow lol. Now it's ok to say MGS games are legit stealth in their higher difficulties and that these other games do bring some action to the table.

I need to start putting my posts through the champ filter.

I'm just not a fan of these convoluted, arbitrary, often contradictory rules when it comes to classifying games in this genre. It's like watching someone say "Console Sci-Fi Shooter Graphics King!".

When you have to narrow your argument down to a pile of meaningless qualifiers to make a point, then add in a healthy dose of bias, there isn't much of a point to be made.

I do get what Cloud Imperium is going for here, I just don't like the picking and choosing when to blow up "issues" with some games while sweeping them under the rug with others.

They're all bringing different things to the table, and to varying degrees. It's not so black and white with this genre. No clearly defined line that says "Hold it bud, you've had one action option too many, YOU'RE FUCKIN OUT!!!"

You and I both like complaining to be super precise, especially in English lol.To be fair, I think Cloud's native language isn't English, so I always took some of his stuff as something being lost in translation. General point Metal Gear is more willing to highlight action than Thief and Splinter Cell are. Tone and systems wise, they are a bit further on the stealth heavy side. Metal Gear tries to maintain a reasonable balance of the two, not dead even ala Batman or something, but more so like a 70/30 split, where the action is functional, even fun, but you're just making shit harder on yourself.

So it's more a direction thing, and really it speaks to how homogenized games are, Uncharted 4 has that marking system from Far Cry and MGSV. And naturally people go "That naughty dog, taking established ideas and improving them flawlessly", where as I go, yeah, why keep Uncharted a little bit different from the rest, it should have more features like other games. Like detective vision is actually a good thing in Batman, it makes sense in Batman, even how that combat works makes perfect sense for what you want in Batman.

Detective vision in Hitman? Batman combat which is pure one man army badass power fantasy in a fucking franchise like Lord of the Rings (shadow of mordor), where power fantasy actually isn't an element of that series? Are you fucking serious?

Tbh, i enjoyed stealth sections of Batman Arkham series more than stealth games lol

Good stealth games need good action at overwhelming odds. It is the repercussions of being found that heightens the stealth aspect.

The Talent just isn't in the genre anymore.

You're likely gonna have to look for some Indies if you want a real stealth game that awards you for not being seen.

Also wtf MGS5 wasn't good?