Final fantasy 7 is fantastic game that deserve more than generic open world/movie games.

FF7 was an over-rated game when it was released, and it's over-rated now. One character dies and everyone's like 'Masterpiece!"

Best looking cut scenes at the time but with four discs it'd better have something, cause it sure wasn't gameplay.

@ghosts4ever: Ghost you traitor, now I have to be the only one on here that hates JRPG's.

@br0kenrabbit: FFVII had tons of gameplay across its three CD-ROM discs. Even if you didn't like the turn-based combat, materia micromanagement, or world exploration, you could always just hang out at the Gold Saucer arcade and play lots of minigames... I remember playing the snowboarding game with my mates for nights on end.

I can’t yet say I prefer STALKER 1 over 2 as the latter has yet to be released (though I am certain it won’t compare to what mods have afforded the original). I’ve only expressed serious doubts towards what I’ve seen from the trailer, the NFT announcement, and am overall skeptical the philosophy of the first’s design which makes it so phenomenal will be compatible and accepted in today’s broader market, and hence its design will capitulate to the lesser to appease market trends.

As for OG FFVII, I’ll admit it has aged roughly over the years (even polished up with PC mods), but at release, it was mind-blowing to JRPGS analogous to what Mario 64 was to platformers. Quake, HL and MGS are different genres, so not really comparable.

A Happy New Year to all! 🎉🥂

@br0kenrabbit: Why do clueless people always try to throw their two cents in? No gameplay 🤣 That's officially the dumbest comment of 2022 this far.

I prefer Deus Ex 1 to HR. but I also consider HR a masterpiece. but Deus Ex 1 is still best game ever made.

same thing can happen to STALKER 2. you only talking about NFT this that which they cancelled before try yet not talk about positive things like graphics, atmosphere, modding as priority and so fourth.

It's not the fact that they cancelled the NFTs, it's that they even attempted them in the first place. Their retraction does not absolve them of their thinking towards the game's design in humoring such an inclusion, it's only evidence they don't want to upset the base.

Not to get too far off topic, but I don't think I'm going to be proven wrong on STALKER 2. I think ultimately, while it will share some things that the first is loved for (such as its A-life system), it will be a player-centric, power fantasy, scripted experience like Metro. The world won't be the focus, the player will be. And if that's the case, it will destroy what STALKER is and why it's so loved. And no, mods won't be able to fix such a fundamental approach to design.

I know my opinion is cynical, but only a natural result of what the market is today.

It's an alright game. I'd say it's enjoyable overall. I didn't beat it, got around half way through before I put it on hold. I really don't get the whole Japanese character metrosexual art style for their protagonists.

End of the day it doesn't touch halo though.

A life system still exist. sandbox still exist. atmosphere still exist, inventory still exist (most likely), so yes everything exist yet you still living in delusion. remind me of before the release of Doom 2016 that it was hated before release and then proven to be wrong.

you are 101% proven to be wrong.

only thing we can agree that STALKER 2 cant be better than STALKER 1 and thats very hard thing to do.

today market if not AAA can deliver masterpieces. stuff like Prey, Doom, Deathloop, Hitman, System shock (yes demo exist) exist. STALKER 2 can take place in those category. they all exist in today market and still old school.

You are very difficult to debate with.

exactly. im not blind hater who jump to conclusion before seeing anything.

Its still have all elements of STALKER 1. accept maybe dialogue cutscene which happen in every game since 2007.

Deus Ex HR had a long dialogue cutscene yet it still manage to capture original spirit.

All im saying that STALKER has place in today market just like said games in recent year.

Try Prey 2017. you will understand. its most old school game out of all modern games.

What you're missing in attempting to draw a comparison to those games is that STALKER has a very different approach to its game design than Doom, Prey, Hitman, Deus Ex. It's one I've elaborated on prior, and one I'm not going to repeat.

I'm not a blind hater, nor am I delusional. What is delusional is to believe that the market hasn't changed since STALKER's release to today, and that it will be designed as it was way back when.

Nope. more dumbed down games we find during gen 7 the peak time.

things get improved since last gen despite AAA market get bad.

and yes Deus Ex is more deeper than STALKER and it works.

so what you mean is STALKER 2 should never being made because if it made it will "suck" because today market despite it can be improved in lot of ways. but still suck.

STALKER 2 can work. just like Prey and System shock work. case close.

If you consider an ordered itinerary gameplay, I guess. I understand that's part and parcel of JRPGs but that falls right into my point: the only thing special about FF7 were the cinematics.

Some of the things that made FF7 special in terms of gameplay:

• Limit breaks, which added a new level of depth to the series' Active Time Battle (ATB) combat system.
• Materia system, with deep customization and micromanagement comparable to FF5's job system.
• Largest game world ever seen on consoles up until that time.
• Strong pacing, moving from location to location in a timely manner.
• Many puzzles to solve along the journey.
• More than 30 mini-games along the way, more than anything else seen in a video game up until then.
• Some mini-games are great games in their own right, e.g. motorbike, snowboarding, tower defense, etc.

It's all on rails. I had already been playing games like Wizardry and Ultima by that point, and other than the graphics FF7 was far more simplified and offered little by way of character customization or influence over the story.

Sorry mini-games aren't gonna do it.

Huh? Since when did "on rails" mean "no gameplay"? The games with the best gameplay design are usually "on rails" arcade-style games, not any of that "open world" crap... I'll take "on rails" arcade-style games over "open world" borefests any day...

Anyway, back on topic... No, FF7 is not "on rails" at all, by definition. The fact that it even has explorable towns and an overworld map automatically excludes it from being an "on rails" game (you don't get an overworld or towns in "on-rails" action games). But I wouldn't exactly call it an "open world" borefest either. It strikes a solid middle-ground in terms of world design, open-ended enough to allow a certain degree of exploration, but with some sense of direction so it doesn't become an "open world" borefest like so much of the "open world" crap we have today...

As far as character customization goes, I'm obviously talking about combat customization, not customization outside of combat (which I presume is what you're referring to when bringing up Ultima). As far as character customization in combat goes, FF7 has some of the deepest character customization seen in the genre up until that time. You could freely mix and match materia however you want, and get whatever results you want in combat.

And finally, I thought you were talking about gameplay? What does "influence over the story" have to do with the gameplay? Are we talking about visual novels now?

And finally, you can't just pick-and-choose which parts of the gameplay count and which don't. The mini-games are part of the gameplay, whether you like it or not. They're littered all over the game.

Sorry, but your arguments are completely irrational and make no sense whatsoever. Unlike VFighter who completely dismissed your comment, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt... But now I'm starting to agree with VFighter. I'm starting to wonder if you've even played FF7, because it sure sounds like you haven't played it.

FF7 is on rails now? 😀

Influencing the game is the point of gameplay. In something like FF7, you're following a mostly-ordered and preordained set of encounters and maps regardless of your actions. The only consequences to your actions are failure or success, that's it.

For something like a First Person Shooter that's fine, because the gunplay is itself a learned skill set dependent on the players experience and natural talent. But for a menu-driven game, with no option to truly influence the direction or situation of the story, you're simply stuck experiencing exactly what the developers want you to and no more. There's no dynamics to the gameplay, is what I'm getting at. Even your level-up stats are predetermined.

And FYI I played to the point meteor appeared in the sky. Couldn't do it after that. I have seen the ending on Youtube. Didn't miss much.

was looking forward to Halo infinite (not hype just looking) yet FF7 impressed me in the end.

Such a wierd time. a JRPG impressed me more than FPS.

Good for you for accepting the fact that you like bad gameplay, movie games and cutscenes with waifus.

It has better gameplay than most of third person games.

That's not the point of gameplay. The vast majority of video games have you "following a mostly-ordered and preordained set of encounters and maps regardless of your actions." And guess what, those games usually have the best gameplay. Usually, the more non-linear a game, the worse the gameplay. That's why most open-world games have trash gameplay.

Clearly, you don't like turn-based combat. That's a different ball park from real-time combat. Turn-based combat is not about timing or twitch reactions, but about careful planning, strategy and micromanagement. FF5 had little in the way of storytelling, yet is considered one of the best games in the series, because of its turn-based combat and deep job system. What makes FF7's turn-based combat so dynamic is the materia system, which is a spiritual successor to FF5's job system. Level-up don't mean a thing in FF7, but it's all about materia. You can equip and combine materia in hundreds of different ways, resulting in the combat turning out different every time you change up the materia.

If you don't like turn-based combat, then you don't need to play turn-based RPGs. The genre is clearly not for you. And that's perfectly fine. Not every game is for everyone. But don't try act like turn-based combat is "no gameplay"... You're conflating your personal preferences with reality.

Wait, what? Final Fantasy VII is an on rails game now? Am I reading this right? 😐

Nah, character deaths have been done before in the FF franchise (2, 4, 5, 6 depending on your actions), let alone the jRPG genre as a whole, whom had had far more significant deaths than what was an easily predicted character death in FF7.

FF7's writing and setting remains strong, not only was it a rare case of a modern era RPG, as opposed to the typical fantasy setting that was all too common at the time. But the shinra sections of the game remain some of the most tightly paced moments I have seen in any RPG.

As for FF7's character system, it isnt very permanent, but Materia was such a good system that devs, most notably the Grinding Gear Games devs copied the materia system, alongside FF10's sphere grid, for Path of Exile.

That said, I agree with you, menu based battle systems, especially those in real time (like FF7's) drives me nuts.

Most 'third person' games just like most games has sh*t gameplay. Congratulations on the discovery. Just so you know FF is among those sh*t games.

You’re not even understanding my point, and if you think you are, I’d appreciate an elaboration on your take on it.

Back up. Chrono Trigger was awesome, but look how much influence you have over that story. Follow up CT with FF7 and it's a step back in gameplay. Can't be argued.

Ehhh, the original is a JRPG for sure.

The newer one? It doesn't cary over the same combat that defines JRPGs.

It has a more western real time combat style.

Again, you're conflating interactive storytelling with gameplay. Chrono Trigger would still have great gameplay even if it didn't have visual novel like interactive storytelling elements.

There's nothing Western about the real-time combat style... The combat style is straight-up Japanese arcadey hack & slash, Kingdom Hearts style with some Devil May Cry elements.

@br0kenrabbit: You're so all over the place with your "argument" do you even know what you're arguing about anymore?

I sure do. Please stick to the subject instead of personal insults, thanks.

Gameplay isn't regulated to control inputs, it's any method the user can manipulate the presentation with. Mutating the story is indeed a gameplay element, one which FF7 sorely needs and is sorely lacking.

I'm not saying the combat isn't Japanese.

I'm saying the original style of combat in FF7 (the original game) is what defines JRPG.

At least for me: when I think JRPG, and when people talk JRPG, it always has the turn based combat.

So yeah, I'm poking holes into Ghosts saying "zomg, I'm liking a JRPG, how can that be?"

@br0kenrabbit: Why does it need a "mutating" story exactly? What is a mutating story exactly?

Looping around to my first post here: It's (FF7) an itinerary. You just go down the checklist checking off ordered event after ordered event until you reach the end. There's nothing unique about any individual playthrough.

@br0kenrabbit: So you don't even know what you're talking about, gotcha.

You're focusing on the minutiae and missing the bigger picture. Narrative choices are only a small part of the gameplay in almost any game you find them (except for visual novels, where choices are the entire gameplay). The narrative choices are not what makes Chrono Trigger a great game. The choices certainly enhance the experience, but it would've still been a great game even if it didn't have narrative choices. Gameplay is so much more than just narrative choices... First you reduce the gameplay down to cinematics, and now you're reducing gameplay down to story choices.

It's not like FF7 doesn't have narrative choices. It just has choices on a micro scale, rather than a macro scale. It has many micro-level choices, with micro-level consequences. For example, depending on how you interact with characters, that determines who Cloud goes on a date with at the Gold Saucer. So there's a choice-driven dating sim minigame embedded into the game. Then there's the optional side quests, including character quests to unlock Vincent or Yuffie, which influences how the story unfolds in subtle ways. But ultimately, the main story is linear.

Right but you're also missing the other half of my argument that hasn't been discussed since the first few posts, and everyone started focusing on interactive story.

The other half of my argument was that little else was under player control. Materia and mini-games and I guess equipment but can I be a mage? Can I get rid of that plastic He-Man sword? Gimme a gun pl0x.

This is a novel you click through. You just have to grind the chapters.

There is no correct definition of a "JRPG" but we all have our own personal definitions:

• To you, "JRPG" means a traditional '90s Japanese console-style turn-based RPG.
• To me, "JRPG" means any style of RPG from Japan.
• To Ghost, "JRPG" means a "weeb" RPG with girly "animu" characters.

Translation: Ghost was trying to say that he's shocked he's actually enjoying a "weeb RPG with girly animu characters."

Yes, you can be a mage. Just equip magic materia... and voila, you're a mage! Materia is a very flexible character combat customization system. By mixing and matching materia, you can assign virtually any character role to any character, whether it's a mage, healer, thief, mimic, summoner, etc. The only combat elements unique to each character are the weapon types and the limit breaks. Every other combat element for each character can be altered by materia.

So I can throw a robe on, wield a staff and collect reagents? Even the Barbarian in Diablo II could use three magical elements on his weapon, that does not a mage make him.

You can make any character into a mage by equipping magic materia and leveling-up their magic materia. FFVII doesn't have traditional RPG character classes, but the materia system is a free-for-all system where you can assign virtually any combat role to any character. The only things that stay unique to each character are the weapon type and limit breaks... and the clothing, which is just window-dressing that has no impact on gameplay.

BTW, Diablo II came out in 2000, three years after FFVII, so that's a poor comparison. At least try compare it to something that came out in 1997 or earlier... But speaking of Diablo, its spiritual successor Path of Exile adopted FF7's materia system (as Maroxad already mentioned above). Clearly because it's a very flexible character customization system.

As always, your opinion is completely irrelevant. Well, actually, maybe not completely. You saying a game is good is detrimental to the game.

Doesn't get my interest, and I love micromanagement (Civ, Stellaris, Total War, etc.)

Understand I opened this discussion called the game over-rated, not bad. The cutscenes were a big draw at the time, and sold the game. Take away those CGI cutscenes and you may still have something decent but it wouldn't have got the attention that it did at the time.

Materia system is one of the best parts about 7, it opens up customization so much, not to mention party comps

The big-budget CGI cinematics and visuals certainly helped sell the game to the masses... But it was the story, gameplay and music that gave it tremendous staying power over the next 25 years.

At least make fair comparisons. 4x sims is whole different genres entirely.