I think my biggest problem is that so many of these voters say "sure Bonds/Clemens/Sosa have the stats, but they don't have the integrity required to get in the Hall". Ty f*cking Cobb was an inaugural member of the HoF. Now integrity is a requirement? Gaylord Perry is infamous for cheating but he's in.
I wouldn't read too deeply into Biggio's percentage. I think that was more the traditional turds who never vote for someone the first year they're on the ballot. (Think back to Roberto Alomar).
Biggio probably will get in next year, with maybe Bagwell and Piazza joining him. Master_Live
Next year's ballot is stacked, I don't like any of their chances. Some of these voters seem to think there's an imaginary limit to how many guys they can vote for per year. I want to know what they'll do with Frank Thomas. He's never been connected to steroids in any way but he was a big slugger during the steroid era. His numbers are certainly HOF-worthy.
I honestly don't have an issue with voters putting Clemens, Bonds, Sosa, etc on their ballot as long as their consistant with their decisions and don't base their voters on "would this player still be a hall of fame if..." decision making. I'm surprised Schilling didn't clock in above 50% but due to lack of any real suspicion around his career I suspect he'll be in within the next 5-8 years though will likely be preceded by Biggio (next year), Piazza (probably 2 years), and Tim Raines
[QUOTE="Master_Live"]Biggio probably will get in next year, with maybe Bagwell and Piazza joining him. JML897
Next year's ballot is stacked, I don't like any of their chances. Some of these voters seem to think there's an imaginary limit to how many guys they can vote for per year. I want to know what they'll do with Frank Thomas. He's never been connected to steroids in any way but he was a big slugger during the steroid era. His numbers are certainly HOF-worthy. I think he'll get in but will take a few years, 500 homers has lost some luster but is still widely respected by the voters. Maddux should easily pass that bar, and I think Glavine will too though that will be closer. Mussina will probably start around where Schilling did today, but otherwise I don't see a whole lot of players in next year's class who I think will be on the ballot long-term.
Yea but ped's back then were nothin compared to the stuff they use these days. Bonds and McGwire got huge and you could tell they were doin it.
36Ounces
In baseball, amphetamines are far more effective at boosting performance than steroids.
Cool... There were no rules against it at the time Aaron and Mays were playing.
I just don't think Bonds would of put up those numbers near the end of his career if he wasn't juicin.
Steroid use didn't become a punishable offense in baseball until after the 2005 season. By your reasoning, if all evidence against Bonds is prior to that change in policy, shouldn't Bonds be in the HOF?
In baseball, amphetamines are far more effective at boosting performance than steroids.
Oleg_Huzwog
Cool... There were no rules against it at the time Aaron and Mays were playing.
I just don't think Bonds would of put up those numbers near the end of his career if he wasn't juicin.
Steroid use didn't become a punishable offense in baseball until after the 2005 season. By your reasoning, if all evidence against Bonds is prior to that change in policy, shouldn't Bonds be in the HOF?
Not sure how much or what evidence they have on him. He did play 2 years after the policy change though. I don't know bc there's not much the public really knows right now.
Cool... There were no rules against it at the time Aaron and Mays were playing.
I just don't think Bonds would of put up those numbers near the end of his career if he wasn't juicin.
36Ounces
Steroid use didn't become a punishable offense in baseball until after the 2005 season. By your reasoning, if all evidence against Bonds is prior to that change in policy, shouldn't Bonds be in the HOF?
Not sure how much or what evidence they have on him. He did play 2 years after the policy change though. I don't know bc there's not much the public really knows right now.
Fair enough. How about Mark McGwire? He retired after 2001.
Lets get some things straight. This guys took PED's covertly because they knew it was wrong and because it helped them to gain an edge. There were federal laws in place against distributing this stuff so I don't all this "it wasn't against the rules" crap. Are you allowed to murder people inside the diamond even tough it is against the law? Not everyone was doing, and many of those who did when on to be rewarded with huge contracts that they might have gotten otherwise. Doubles became homers, time to recuperate shortened. Lets be intellectually honest and not try to short change the importance and clear competitive advantage steroids gave to those who used them.
Lets get some things straight. This guys took PED's covertly because they knew it was wrong and because it helped them to gain an edge. There were federal laws in place against distributing this stuff so I don't all this "it wasn't against the rules" crap. Are you allowed to murder people inside the diamond even tough it is against the law? Not everyone was doing, and many of those who did when on to be rewarded with huge contracts that they might have gotten otherwise. Doubles became homers, time to recuperate shortened. Lets be intellectually honest and not try to short change the importance and clear competitive advantage steroids gave to those who used them. Master_Live
Amphetamines have been classifed as Schedule II under the federal Controlled Substances Act since 1971. Unless Schmidt, Aaron, Mays, Stargell, and every other user after 1971 had a valid prescription from a doctor, then they too were violating federal law.
[QUOTE="Master_Live"]Lets get some things straight. This guys took PED's covertly because they knew it was wrong and because it helped them to gain an edge. There were federal laws in place against distributing this stuff so I don't all this "it wasn't against the rules" crap. Are you allowed to murder people inside the diamond even tough it is against the law? Not everyone was doing, and many of those who did when on to be rewarded with huge contracts that they might have gotten otherwise. Doubles became homers, time to recuperate shortened. Lets be intellectually honest and not try to short change the importance and clear competitive advantage steroids gave to those who used them. Oleg_Huzwog
Amphetamines have been classifed as Schedule II under the federal Controlled Substances Act since 1971. Unless Schmidt, Aaron, Mays, Stargell, and every other user after 1971 had a valid prescription from a doctor, then they too were violating federal law.
How you know those guys used that after 71 though?
I just don't think Bonds would of put up those numbers near the end of his career if he wasn't juicin. 36Ounces
What about Craig Biggio? If you look at his numbers, his single-season highs for home runs came in his mid to late 30s. Nobody really suspects him because there's no proof and he wasn't really known as a slugger, but how do we know for sure that Biggio never roided? Not everybody who takes steroids ends up looking like a Bonds-type freak of nature.
I just feel like we have no idea who was truly 100% clean. The voters might just be voting in guys who hid their steroid use better than others.
[QUOTE="Master_Live"]Lets get some things straight. This guys took PED's covertly because they knew it was wrong and because it helped them to gain an edge. There were federal laws in place against distributing this stuff so I don't all this "it wasn't against the rules" crap. Are you allowed to murder people inside the diamond even tough it is against the law? Not everyone was doing, and many of those who did when on to be rewarded with huge contracts that they might have gotten otherwise. Doubles became homers, time to recuperate shortened. Lets be intellectually honest and not try to short change the importance and clear competitive advantage steroids gave to those who used them. 36Ounces
Amphetamines have been classifed as Schedule II under the federal Controlled Substances Act since 1971. Unless Schmidt, Aaron, Mays, Stargell, and every other user after 1971 had a valid prescription from a doctor, then they too were violating federal law.
How you know those guys used that after 71 though?
Because every single one of them has openly admitted to using them throughout their careers. Nobody ever tried to hide their use of greenies back then. It was just part of the clubhouse culture.
Amphetamines have been classifed as Schedule II under the federal Controlled Substances Act since 1971. Unless Schmidt, Aaron, Mays, Stargell, and every other user after 1971 had a valid prescription from a doctor, then they too were violating federal law.
Oleg_Huzwog
How you know those guys used that after 71 though?
Because every single one of them has openly admitted to using them throughout their careers. Nobody ever tried to hide their use of greenies back then. It was just part of the clubhouse culture.
Heck, Mike Schmidt's rookie year wasn't until 1972, so at no time in his career could he have ever used the "it wasn't against the rules" argument.
Amphetamines have been classifed as Schedule II under the federal Controlled Substances Act since 1971. Unless Schmidt, Aaron, Mays, Stargell, and every other user after 1971 had a valid prescription from a doctor, then they too were violating federal law.
Oleg_Huzwog
How you know those guys used that after 71 though?
Because every single one of them has openly admitted to using them throughout their careers. Nobody ever tried to hide their use of greenies back then. It was just part of the clubhouse culture.
Got anything to back up they admitted using after 71? Just find that hard to believe for some of them.
But yea we'll never agree on this so i'll leave it at that.
How you know those guys used that after 71 though?
36Ounces
Because every single one of them has openly admitted to using them throughout their careers. Nobody ever tried to hide their use of greenies back then. It was just part of the clubhouse culture.
Got anything to back up they admitted using after 71? Just find that hard to believe.
But yea we'll never agree on this so i'll leave it at that.
There's no shortage of evidence, but here are some samples for you:
Willie Mays always had a bottle of amphetamines on display in his locker, and never really bothered trying to hide it, including as late as 1973. Link
Mike Schmidt (whose career started in 1972) acknowledges that he knew you're only supposed to have them with a doctor's prescription, but admits "the name on the bottle didn't always coincide with the name of the player taking them." Link
During the cocaine trials back in the 80's, players testified that Willie Stargell openly distributed greenies to teammates in the clubhouse during the 70's. To be fair, Stargell denied that he distributed (but I don't believe he has ever denied to keeping and using his own supply) Link
Hank Aaron's admission came in his autobiography. He insists he only used in the 60's, so I guess I'll retract his name from the post-71 users, and stick him with Mickey Mantle, Ted Williams, and the other pre-71 users.
Because every single one of them has openly admitted to using them throughout their careers. Nobody ever tried to hide their use of greenies back then. It was just part of the clubhouse culture.
Oleg_Huzwog
Got anything to back up they admitted using after 71? Just find that hard to believe.
But yea we'll never agree on this so i'll leave it at that.
There's no shortage of evidence, but here are some samples for you:
Willie Mays always had a bottle of amphetamines on display in his locker, and never really bothered trying to hide it, including as late as 1973. Link
Mike Schmidt (whose career started in 1972) acknowledges that he knew you're only supposed to have them with a doctor's prescription, but admits "the name on the bottle didn't always coincide with the name of the player taking them." Link
During the cocaine trials back in the 80's, players testified that Willie Stargell openly distributed greenies to teammates in the clubhouse during the 70's. To be fair, Stargell denied that he distributed (but I don't believe he has ever denied to keeping and using his own supply) Link
Hank Aaron's admission came in his autobiography. He insists he only used in the 60's, so I guess I'll retract his name from the post-71 users, and stick him with Mickey Mantle, Ted Williams, and the other pre-71 users.
I can't win with you :lol: But thanks for the info, didn't know that. At least my boy Hank "clean" after 71 supposedly.
the writers are idiots....ive been hearing their reasonings but in the end its not justified, but there is no governing body over them for abusing their priviledge...utterly stupid, if it wasn't illegal, why was it considered cheating?
Oleg, you seem to be the resident baseball fan (and the only Mariners fan). Why isn't our man Edgar getting into the HOF? They named the damn DH award after him. Is there something I'm missing?
Cooperstown is a museum. Its main purpose is to record the history of the game. Even if Bonds, Clemens, Sosa etc don't get in the "Steroids Era" should get their own wing. You just can't ignore 20-30 years of baseball.
Cooperstown is a museum. Its main purpose is to record the history of the game. Even if Bonds, Clemens, Sosa etc don't get in the "Steroids Era" should get their own wing. You just can't ignore 20-30 years of baseball. Master_Live
Cooperstown is a museum. Its main purpose is to record the history of the game. Even if Bonds, Clemens, Sosa etc don't get in the "Steroids Era" should get their own wing. You just can't ignore 20-30 years of baseball. Master_Live
Word. Jayson Start made the same point on ESPN. I agree with him. If it's the hall of "good guys", then Ty Cobb and many others SURE as hell shouldn't be in it.
To quote Jon Stewart from The Daily Show, ""These guys gotta feel bad. Locked out of the Hall for just shooting a little moose semen between their toes."
I'd wish Jack Morris in if it meant that at least 1 person got in :| The no go on the first ballot is beyond stupid, and most of these guys never even got busted for taking PEDs so stfu Peter Gammons "The integrity of the game is preserved" or whatever the hell he said. Under the circumstances now i don't think it's that big of a deal, hell most people in their shoes would probably have cheated as well and there are much worse people in the Hall. Even Bob Costas is now saying he would vote for these guys......
[QUOTE="Master_Live"]Cooperstown is a museum. Its main purpose is to record the history of the game. Even if Bonds, Clemens, Sosa etc don't get in the "Steroids Era" should get their own wing. You just can't ignore 20-30 years of baseball. 36Ounces
I can go with that.
Biggio should get in though. thats almost as bad a reason as to keeping these people out
I'd wish Jack Morris in if it meant that at least 1 person got in :| The no go on the first ballot is beyond stupid, and most of these guys never even got busted for taking PEDs so stfu Peter Gammons "The integrity of the game is preserved" or whatever the hell he said. Under the circumstances now i don't think it's that big of a deal, hell most people in their shoes would probably have cheated as well and there are much worse people in the Hall. Even Bob Costas is now saying he would vote for these guys......X360PS3AMD05
Yeah, I hate that <1% garbage. David Wells belongs in but because he got less than 1% he's off future ballot. At least the NFL does it right...
Cooperstown is a museum. Its main purpose is to record the history of the game. Even if Bonds, Clemens, Sosa etc don't get in the "Steroids Era" should get their own wing. You just can't ignore 20-30 years of baseball. Master_Live
I read a blog that said the Hall of Fame is about honoring the history of the game, not recording it. Inducting steroid users like Bonds, Clemens and Sosa would bring dishonor to the HoF and it would lose its integrity.
Inducting steroid users like Bonds, Clemens and Sosa would bring dishonor to the HoF and it would lose its integrity.The-Apostle
I hate this argument so much. You can't use a player's integrity as a reason for keeping them out of a Hall of Fame where Ty Cobb is an inaugural member.
It just seems really inconsistent to me. 20 years ago Gaylord Perry was inducted even though everyone knew he cheated. He even wrote a book talking about how he cheated while he was still playing.
Oleg, you seem to be the resident baseball fan (and the only Mariners fan). Why isn't our man Edgar getting into the HOF? They named the damn DH award after him. Is there something I'm missing?monkeytoes61
TLDR version: he'll be borderline and it'll take several years, but I think he eventually gets in.
Longer version: [spoiler]
Arguments against putting Edgar Martinez in the HOF:
He's a DH; a part-time player. Unlike other DH's already in the hall (Paul Molitor), Edgar Martinez didn't transition from the field to DH late in his career.
His "counting" stats are good, but not great. He only had 2247 hits in his career. That's nowhere near the magic number of 3000. For a guy whose job was designated HITTER, he really didn't tally that many hits.
Counter arguments to the above:
They've already opened the doors to relief pitchers (Bruce Sutter), so voters aren't completely against the concept of part-time specialty players getting in. If barely cracking 1000 innings is enough for enshrinement, it seems almost hypocritical to penalize a player for not standing out in left field shagging routine flyballs. The vast majority of plaques in the Hall don't even make mention of a player's fielding. With a few exceptions (Ozzie Smith, Roberto Alomar, etc.), the only accomplishments the Hall felt worth mentioning were hitting stats. Some Hall of Famers (Ted Williams for example) were notoriously bad in the field. If the DH rule was around back then, is there any doubt that some of them would've been career DH's too?
Don't forget the walks! Edgar Martinez's hit totals were deflated partly because he had such a great eye and knew how to take a walk. Consider the following:
Roberto Clemente 3000 hits, Edgar Martinez 2247. Huge difference.
Reasons to be optimistic that he'll eventually get in:
Old-school voters will slowly fade away, and be gradually replaced by more sabermetric disciples. Sabermetric junkies are the ones who love Edgar the most. OBP (.418, 21st all time) and OPS+ are probably the best stats he has going for him. He had 8 seasons with an OPS+ of over 150. Compare that to some of the other great hitters of his generation: Alex Rodriguez (7), Chipper Jones (7), Ken Griffey Jr (6), Mike Piazza (6), Jeff Bagwell (6), Sammy Sosa (5)
His vote totals so far have been very similar to other inductees. Jim Rice hung around the 30-35% range for about 5 years before more writers starting talking about him, compared him to other hitters of his time, and gradually bumped up his vote totals. It took him over a decade, but he eventually got in.
Yeah, I hate that <1% garbage. David Wells belongs in but because he got less than 1% he's off future ballot. At least the NFL does it right...The-Apostle
The only time character should keep someone out of any HOF is if it negatively impacted their play or their team. That's why I think Terrell Owens isn't a HOFer.
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