anyone here still a fiscal conservative without the other crazy stuff?

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blaznwiipspman1

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#51 blaznwiipspman1
Member since 2007 • 16570 Posts

@Serraph105: the republican party has really turned to trash, honestly there's only a few good ones left. Rand Paul isn't ideal. He believes in low taxes when I believe the opposite, at least until we get our debt under control. But he's better than most other senators out there, still fighting the good fight. Sadly there's too many bums and leeches out there asking for handouts, they would never accept someone like rand paul who's trying to do the right thing.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#52 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 49576 Posts

Everyone has their varying definitions of "crazy." But I think the idea of fiscal responsibility died off many decades ago on both sides of the aisle. I don't expect it to ever be a reality, especially as we elect more and more millennials/younger generations.

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mrbojangles25

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#53  Edited By mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58402 Posts
@Stevo_the_gamer said:

Everyone has their varying definitions of "crazy." But I think the idea of fiscal responsibility died off many decades ago on both sides of the aisle. I don't expect it to ever be a reality, especially as we elect more and more millennials/younger generations.

I don't think the idea died off, I just think it is political suicide.

We clearly don't need to spend anywhere near the amount we do on our military, but what politician is going to cut the budget? They hate the troops! It is political suicide.

Ditto for increasing budget, except you're a communist lol. Oh you want to increase spending on education? You're a dirty commie that wants to indoctrinate kids.

Just my $0.02.

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comp_atkins

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#54 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 38683 Posts

@blaznwiipspman1 said:

@LJS9502_basic: I like how you derail the topic, which was about our out of control debt, the out of control spending, and $31 trillion dollars and climbing without any real plan to pay it off.

And yes regulation stops capitalism. You can call it something else, but it sure aint capitalism.

i'm really confused here. you say we don't live in a capitalistic economy, but then lament that there are mcdonalds everywhere which is EXACTLY what you'd get in a capitalistic economy.

pick a lane, man

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Solaryellow

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#55 Solaryellow
Member since 2013 • 7034 Posts

@mrbojangles25 said:

Yes and no.

I do believe in fiscal responsibility, but I don't believe that means "do not spend".

There is a lot we need to fix in this country and it requires the spending of money and investment of resources. I think taxes need to be increased across the board for the most part, while decreased in some specific cases.

At the same time, the US on average has a higher tax rate than many "socialist" countries (specifically the Scandinavian ones) while reaping none of the same benefits they have. Where else does the public pay for the construction of hospitals, and then have to pay for their use at the same time, while paying for medication whose research was likewise paid for by the public?



No one likes paying more taxes but that feeling might dilute a bit if there exists legit priorities when it comes to spending. Left and right should be able to find the common ground on necessities rather than frivolous wants. All of us can agree on many things which should be funded by resources outside of tax dollars rather than a political smorgasboard (bribery) each time a bill needs passing. You mention hospitals. How about sports arenas too? We fund so many things we still need to pay extra in order to use. Things we need we don't get.

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LJS9502_basic

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#56 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178858 Posts

@nirgal: Laptops are necessary in education for students. They are not toys.

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LJS9502_basic

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#57 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178858 Posts

@Serraph105 said:
@blaznwiipspman1 said:

@Serraph105: those are disgraced of Republicans, nobody should point to them and use them as an example, there is no real conservative that doesn't support fiscal measures. Absolutely none, and if you do, you're not a conservative, only a bum, worse than those woke liberals. Alot of conservatives are getting distracted with the other nonsense, we need to stick to our true mandate of cutting the shit out if spending, raising the shit out of taxes, on everyone, and paying down that debt. We can cut taxes again once the debt is under control. I want to see a republican candidate promise to lower the debt to 30 trillion, heck just lower it period, that would be awesome. No more spending, no more free lunch, just whack away at our debt. This nonsense free money is an absolute disgrace and it needs to end.

Also I've said it 100 times before, while I liked trump, he did alot of great things and exposed the swamp. The one thing I absolutely hated about him was how irresponsible he was with money, he should never have given out those tax cuts and instead put that money toward the debt. It would even set a great example to the kids, if the government is being responsible with money, everyone else should be too.

Yet they're the republicans in power and the ones who keep getting voted back in time and time again. Why should I believe that "real republicans" are fiscally conservative when republicans constantly prove that they are not so?

Yes. For several administrations now Republicans have outspent the Democrats that they point to for spending. They also leave the country higher in debt. Fiscally conservative has just become a talking point and nothing more.

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Zaryia

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#58  Edited By Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 21607 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@sargentd said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

Exactly. That is NOT the fair way to tax.

It would be the fair way to tax.

If the politicians who have promised to re write the tax codes for 20 years... ACTUALLY re wrote the tax code...

No it's not even close to being fair.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/05/26/the-flat-tax-falls-flat-for-good-reasons/

https://www.thebalancemoney.com/flat-tax-pros-cons-examples-compared-to-fair-tax-3306329

https://www.usnews.com/debate-club/is-a-flat-tax-a-good-idea/flat-tax-will-benefit-only-the-rich

I'm not sure why you want to benefit the wealthy at the expense of the middle class.

Brainwashing by far right media.

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Maroxad

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#59  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23944 Posts

To get good policy in, you have to first understand the local situation. Under spoilers I have a short analysis of the fiscal situation in sweden

When it comes to our national spending, our largest spending comes in the form of General Grants to Local Governments, this goes towards things like Infrastructure, Libraries and other nice amenities. The spending for this comes at around 157 Billion SEK. Southern Sweden is

After this our biggest expenditure is Healthcare at 123 Billion SEK, it is worth noting that Sweden unlike the US, employs a Universal Healthcare system, and this system is met with strong bipartisan support. Therefore trying to get rid of our Universal Healthcare would be political suicide.

Other strong areas of spending include financial aid for those with disabilities and illnesses, at 114 Billion, and this is an issue where Sweden and otehr European Countries may ahve gone a bit too far left. While I do believe there should be a safety net. A lot of people who could potentially work, choose not to, and instead opt to live on welfare funds citing a disability, sometimes even very minor.

We also spend an increasing amount on our military. The increased military spending makes sense due to the recent Russian Invasion of Ukraine. Russia has been known to violate our airspaces too. However, it is worth noting that Military Might wont do much to counter China's Soft Power Strategy. Our current projections are at 81 Billion, but expected to grow to 123 by 2025.

We also spend 62 Billion on Justice, a number that is expected to increase quite a bit. In Sweden, we are dealing with increased issues with Criminality stemming from Gangs. When no court will hear your case, many criminals will resort to joining gangs to deal with disputes.

Now, for my armchair politician solutions

  1. First we need to look at infrastructure. Swedish Infrastructure is really good, but there is a lot of unnecessary spending here. Because southern sweden has a very low density, we should aspire to increase population density by phasing out suburbs. Build far more housing which emphasize the Missing Middle So to speak, homes that aren't detatched single family homes. Building these has more benefits too outside of infrastructure costs. Public Amenities will serve a greater ammount of people. Increased walkability will result in more people getting more exercise (thus reducing healthcare spending). Energy costs will also reduce, due to less energy lost from heat dispertion when heating homes or driving cars. More homes will provide more taxeable households, while also reducing the ammount of homeless. As californian studies have shown, even free housing relieves taxpayers more money than the costs that leaving them homeless would bring. All in all, this is a fiscallyconservative policy.
  2. I would make sure we have tighter controls on who can claim unemployment benefits on cause for disability.

    While there are those who have legit reasons not to be able to work, and they still deserve a comfortable life. We have plenty of individuals who managed to exploit the system. If we can get unproductive for no reason citizens to work, we could save a lot money and make more in tax revenue. This is also a fiscally conservative policy.

  3. We should fully support Ukraine. Letting Ukraine use our weapons to defeat the Russians is going to be a MAJOR relief for us in the long run. And better yet, they will do so for a fraction of the damages that we would endure, should Russia continue to their quest to destabilize the west. Hell it is possible we already lost a lot of money from the political instability they export worldwide. This would be a fiscially centrist policy.
  4. We should decriminalize all drugs, turn it into a health issue as opposed to a criminal issue like Portugal did. This is something I would do, if at all possible early on in my term. As Nils Bejerot's ideas for drug control are still REALLY popular here, and it would have to be done early on when I have strong political capital in my political honeymoon. Although socially liberal, this also is a fiscially conservative policy. As it would deregulate markets quite a bit.
  5. And lastly. We need to look at our healthcare. You see, in Sweden We have Universal Healthcare, when one person is fat, all of us pay extra in taxes. And my solutions for this are 2-fold. First we need to improve access to healthy food. Both in terms of education and access in stores. And second, we need to stop encouraging people to cook unhealthy junk that they feed themselves and their kids with. In Hemkunskap class, all cooking taught there should emphasize only plant based and traditional swedish meals. We should also ban all meat subsidies (save for fish), so they have to fairly compete against far superior alternatives. This would be a mixture of fiscially liberal and conservative positions.

All in all, while I am fairly left wing. Fiscially Right Wing positions make sense from time to time. People on the left should not be afraid to use Right Wing Solutions for Left Wing concerns.

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mattbbpl

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#60 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23046 Posts

@Maroxad said:

All in all, while I am fairly left wing. Fiscially Right Wing positions make sense from time to time. People on the left should not be afraid to use Right Wing Solutions for Left Wing concerns.

That's not usually a problem here in the States. Most of the Democratic legislation passed has right wing components, and often right wing foundations.

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Maroxad

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#61  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23944 Posts
@mattbbpl said:
@Maroxad said:

All in all, while I am fairly left wing. Fiscially Right Wing positions make sense from time to time. People on the left should not be afraid to use Right Wing Solutions for Left Wing concerns.

That's not usually a problem here in the States. Most of the Democratic legislation passed has right wing components, and often right wing foundations.

You are not wrong about that.

Say what you will about the Democrats. But I do appreciate them for being a lot more pragmatic than most voters. Problem is... the political pundits and purists, found all over the internet.

In Sweden, the Left Party almost accidentally gave the prime ministry to the far right Sweden Democrats last year, over a dispute with some retirement policies. Whoops.

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horgen

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#62 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127517 Posts

@Serraph105 said:

I don't believe that fiscal conservatives really exist. It's only a talking point for when Republicans are out of power. Once they're in power it's all about giving as much money as possible to the richest class of America at the expense of the poor and middle class.

Well the closest you come in US are Democratic party to fiscal conservatives.

@Maroxad said:

You don't need to raise taxes, because you have already built a surplus from when times are good.

This isnt some voodoo economics I am proposing either. This is standard fiscal policy in a lot of industrialized countries.

What you are proposing is exactly what voodoo economics is in US. :P

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blaznwiipspman1

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#63  Edited By blaznwiipspman1
Member since 2007 • 16570 Posts
@comp_atkins said:
@blaznwiipspman1 said:

@LJS9502_basic: I like how you derail the topic, which was about our out of control debt, the out of control spending, and $31 trillion dollars and climbing without any real plan to pay it off.

And yes regulation stops capitalism. You can call it something else, but it sure aint capitalism.

i'm really confused here. you say we don't live in a capitalistic economy, but then lament that there are mcdonalds everywhere which is EXACTLY what you'd get in a capitalistic economy.

pick a lane, man

I don't believe in complete deregulation in a healthy free market. I believe regulation should only be used to reduce harm and to bring back balance to the market.

The patent/IP/trademark/intellectual property system is just one area where things have gotten out of control, and now we're left with a few companies that are acting as literal monopolies. This has done tremendous damage and the fact is, its a literal communist practice because it would not exist at all without government intervention.

If you break something at the store you pay for it. If you or your dog shits on the side of the road, you clean it up. If I go downtown, I park in the handicap zone, I get ticketted. If a company dumps toxic sludge in the water, they're fined and made to clean it up. You crash into a car, your insurance pays the cost. If you use a road, you pay the toll. You pay for the harm you cause, this is pretty much fundamental in every free market.

Some companies though seem to be exempt from this fundamental rule of the free market. Companies like mcdonalds are allowed to profit in the billions of dollars, and mislead people that eating their food isn't unhealthy. At the same time they don't pay a single dime to our out of control healthcare costs. They caused the damage, but we pay the price.

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mattbbpl

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#64  Edited By mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23046 Posts

@blaznwiipspman1: Have you read any of Dean Baker or followed up on his recommended economists to read? I think he'd be right up your alley, and it might give you more nuanced positions than "end IP protections."

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blaznwiipspman1

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#65 blaznwiipspman1
Member since 2007 • 16570 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

@blaznwiipspman1: Have you read any of Dean Baker or followed up on his recommended economists to read? I think he'd be right up your alley, and it might give you more nuanced positions than "end IP protections."

yeah, I'll have to look him up actually.

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mattbbpl

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#66 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23046 Posts

@blaznwiipspman1 said:
@mattbbpl said:

@blaznwiipspman1: Have you read any of Dean Baker or followed up on his recommended economists to read? I think he'd be right up your alley, and it might give you more nuanced positions than "end IP protections."

yeah, I'll have to look him up actually.

Here's where you would start. It's his most recent book. It's free, available in a format of your choosing, and I've been told presents a good overview of his economic worldview.

Note that I have not read this yet and thus am not endorsing it. I'm recommending it based on what I know about Dean Baker's and your viewpoints matching up, and that this book is supposed to give a great overview of Dean Baker's economic worldview.

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lamprey263

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#67 lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 44616 Posts

Whining about the deficit is just conservatives cover for cutting entitlements to working class Americans to pay for tax cuts for the filthy rich but there really is no concern over debt and most times they'll cut taxes anyways with no concern for the debt. That itself is crazy talk but it sadly seems rather tame to where the GOPs proud celebration of boastful ignorance has taken itself where they now celebrate incompetent imbeciles like Kanye West and Alex Jones and Elon Musk.