No real MMO's left.

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#1 Posted by Evan21 (86 posts) -

This is not a trolling thread. If you disagree with me, ( which I'm sure there will be those that do ) if you can't articulate yourself in an appropriate manner don't bother. Also if you are one of those pretentious people that love to try to argue people into submission, do us all a favor and leave. This is for the gamers that have been around for a while, the gamers what experienced early MMOs and fell in love with the genre before it's demise, not in actuality but in principal. Fair warning, this thread will probably be longer than most.

With the eminent shut down of vanguard I began asking myself a question, what in the world happened to the real MMO? Most of you that have gotten passed the first paragraph already know what I'm talking about, but by the off chance you don't I will elaborate. MMOs began their decent down a slippery slope ( starting with Everquest 2 and accelerated by the unfortunate success of WoW ) of catering to the masses and becoming linear grind bore-fests, and have rendered the genre unrecognizable. The real MMOs being those in the same lineage as ( to name a few ) Runescape, Asheron's Call, and Everquest.

What made them different? I understand that the core concept has not changed much over the years, but the principal has. I remember the first time playing Asheron's Call. ( It was my favorite MMO of all time so I will reference it ) I was dropped off in a large world with nothing to go off of, half naked and afraid. No question marks on my map. No exclamation marks over the surrounding NPC's, NOTHING. I remember I thought at this point " What SHOULD I do?" I decided to walk along a random road ( those that have played the game know this was a bad idea ) and wound up running into a level 15 or so armadillo of sorts that made short work of me. Upon respawning I realized I was naked and had nothing. In a panic I asked someone in a local town ( who was working on CREATING SPELLS ) what to do, he laughed and escorted me to my remains where all my items still were. Why bother telling the story? It brings me to my first difference, CONSEQUENCES. In AC I quickly realized that I would have to not only think carefully about what enemies I engaged but also where I traveled alone. This consequence system added an element of fear and strategy that has not been seen in the genre for some time. This was only amplified when considering what dungeons and instanced quests to embark on, since sometimes it would be nearly impossible to get back to without a substantial party. All this contributed to a sense of immersion that doesn't exist in the genre today. In today's MMO all I have to worry about is a few durability points of armor taken away at death, or a few minutes of decreased stats which can easily be overlooked as I go grab a drink and a snack

Now that I have hit on the topic of consequence I would like to advance to questing. Questing isn't questing in today's MMO. Let's look at the definition of quest in proper context for a moment. Medieval Romance. an adventurous expedition undertaken by a knight or knights to secure or achieve something. What exists now hardly fits this definition, you're not finding or achieving anything worth mentioning. A quest by today's standards is an NPC with a sign over his head meaning "Talk to me" that usually has a problem with a random indigenous creature, and gives you an arbitrary number to kill. Once finished you usually head back to the same spot and say "Yup, killed ( insert arbitrary number here ) of them" at which time the NPC responds with " Thanks here is the piece of gear you see every other "adventurer" wearing in this vicinity!". At this time your hand is held to the next NPC with a sign so you can kill the next arbitrary amount of creatures. BORING! It used to be you could talk to almost any NPC and they would have something to say, a location where you could search to find a dungeon to explore, or a general location to find a monster ( a lot of times elite ) which you would have to hunt down and kill. Maybe the NPC would give you a clue on the right ingredients to create ( not to be confused with being handed generously as you level up ) a spell! Those were quests! This also all but guaranteed you would not encounter some random dude that looked just like you, with the same gear as you, which I might add is an epidemic in today's MMO. This again added to the immersion, giving you a sense that you might find anything anywhere, and you were on your own distinct path.

The last part of the previous paragraph brings me to my next point. Player progression is now pointless. You are given a set number of levels with a set number of stats ( which are usually allocated for you ). Even if the stats are not distributed the game's structure forces you to put them somewhere. i.e. archer putting stats in dexterity. This did not used to be the case. In AC I could distribute my points to ANY stat and have it matter. I remember putting lots of points in jumping so I could make it to an obsidian dagger in a dungeon that had large chasms to cross. Later on I found an ever so useful strategy of jumping on top of structures or trees to kill enemies above my level or to avoid PKs. ( That's right, true player kills, which was activated by a quest, where you became a red dot on the map and PVE players parted like the Red Sea ). I would simply like to iterate that any player of any class could level any attribute and could play the way THEY wanted to. This again, added to immersion by giving you the illusion that you were your own, unique, hero OR villain.

I planned to present all the points I could think of that the original genre excelled over their current counter parts, but writing this thread has made me realize it would only make this already long thread longer. There are so many more elements that I wish still existed. There were raids on other guilds houses randomly, there were trading towns that actually traded, houses to be bought in game not instanced ones, there were spells that HAD to be created to be learned, different weapons would effect different enemies in different ways, and communicating with others was essential not a tacked on mechanic with a match making server. I miss the days of being invested in my character. I remember how sad I was to delete "Areion" from AC when the time came. It seems as if I could go on forever. Since Everquest 2 I have jumped from game to game hoping for the same type of experience and have yet to find it. I am not saying there is no place for the "modern" MMO, I'm saying there still IS a place for the old school one. Let me know what you think. Here is to hoping I'm not alone.

#2 Posted by FelipeInside (25036 posts) -

I too think there is a place for both types of MMOs (sandbox old style and themepark newer style), but I don't reckon the old style is the "true real" MMO like you and many others label it. Themepark MMOs can do a lot of wonderful things too.

#3 Posted by Evan21 (86 posts) -

@FelipeInside: People call it true, I feel, because the old was first and it feels like I have been robbed of the genre all together. Because "themepark" name has to be given to differentiate from the old, and the old doesn't exist anymore. I stand by my classification. However I don't deny that some games have introduced some interesting elements, real time world instances etc. ( Rift's model, not GW2 ) I feel they are wasted on the foundation of the new aged MMO. I still don't feel invested. Now imagine adding some of these elements to the old, it would be great.

#4 Edited by KHAndAnime (13150 posts) -

Meh. MMORPGs are still made directly in the vein of Asheron's Calls, Runescape, and Everquest. The only difference is that the MMORPGs in that style are more streamlined. Instead of allocating permanent stat points, you allocate changeable talent points. This is supposedly a superior system because instead of people creating characters based entirely on the game's idea of balance and an "ideal build", players can focus more on customizing their character as opposed to focusing on the avoidance of mispent stat points. Instead of the traditional questing and grinding structures of old, they now more or less combined grinding and questing so now you grind quests instead of grinding mobs directly (though in the end, you're still grinding). This is also supposedly superior because the game holds your hand and you never have to spend as much as a second figuring out where to go or what to do next.

I don't consider classic grind-centric MMORPGs or descendants of such to be "real MMORPGs". Ultima Online was closer to being a "real MMORPG" than any of the games you listed, providing players an unmatched sandbox experience. Eve Online is closer to Ultima Online in nature than any other MMORPG out, so real MMORPGs are still out there and people are still playing them.

#5 Edited by Evan21 (86 posts) -

@KHAndAnime: I agree with you on Ultima is in the same class as Asheron's Call, I don't agree it's more like what I'm trying to describe. Eve, eh, you have to be interested in it. It's pretty much a pay to win environment. However, I disagree with these notions that any of the new school methods are superior. They just make gameplay repetitive. I understand that there are still servers hosting some of the old school MMOs, but when are the fans of them going to get a new game with new experiences, updated graphics and animations, all the things that new hardware has to offer? We are a terribly neglected demographic, although it appears I am in the minority here.

#6 Edited by lawlessx (46249 posts) -

@Evan21 said:

@KHAndAnime: I agree with you on Ultima is in the same class as Asheron's Call, I don't agree it's more like what I'm trying to describe. Eve, eh, you have to be interested in it. It's pretty much a pay to win environment. However, I disagree with these notions that any of the new school methods are superior. They just make gameplay repetitive. I understand that there are still servers hosting some of the old school MMOs, but when are the fans of them going to get a new game with new experiences, updated graphics and animations, all the things that new hardware has to offer? We are a terribly neglected demographic, although it appears I am in the minority here.

Im so tempted to ask what makes eve online P2W,but im gonna let it go.

they're some indie teams working to develop sandbox MMOs that try to relive the golden years of Ultima online (ex:repopulation) ,but they will never use the full potential of the PC's hardware without real funding from publishers.

also truth of the matter is this generation of gamers still can't handle being told that they aren't awesome. Most gamers don't want to learn..don't want to read..and most importantly don't want to die. my biggest beef with most MMO's coming out is end game content. My "endgame" in an MMO should be what i bloody want it to be..not what some guy created.

#7 Posted by Evan21 (86 posts) -

@lawlessx: I agree with everything you said. For the life of me I can't figure out why no one will take advantage of this niche. We are so starved I honestly believe anything that meets the requirements would make tons of money. As far as eve, ok, I know you don't have to pay to win, this brings us to the argument of what pay to win is, but the tendency of those that pay are going to win is extremely high. Several things are extremely expensive in eve and hard to get at all if you're just starting now. Some people spend thousands on Eve.

#8 Edited by lawlessx (46249 posts) -

@Evan21 said:

@lawlessx: I agree with everything you said. For the life of me I can't figure out why no one will take advantage of this niche. We are so starved I honestly believe anything that meets the requirements would make tons of money. As far as eve, ok, I know you don't have to pay to win, this brings us to the argument of what pay to win is, but the tendency of those that pay are going to win is extremely high. Several things are extremely expensive in eve and hard to get at all if you're just starting now. Some people spend thousands on Eve.

and those are things newbies shouldn't be concerning themselves with if they're still learning about the game. To be frank with you spending thousands in eve online is ridiculous. i don't know what you might have read online,but if anyone is truly spending that kind of money on eve online that person would represent a tiny fraction of the eve community. Going back to my point...in the time i have spent playing eve online the one thing that i think everyone playing and those who are interested in eve should know is that just because you're in a bigger ship doesn't mean you will faceroll someone in a ship that is a tier lower. That type of mindset has gotten me killed more times then i can count

when a player is first starting out he should figure out what he wants to be in the game and work for it. If the player wants to pvp he will have to start on the ground floor and get a frigate and train skills to to affective in one before working on other ship types. thinking about the 400 million isk ships during your first week in the game will only discourage you.

#9 Edited by Evan21 (86 posts) -

@lawlessx: I'm not trying to argue with you, but I've played Eve but not in a couple years, ( like 2011 ) and a couple years ago it was annoying to lose when you worked so hard. Some people can just buy it back. That to me is pay to win. Not to mention it is pay to play in the first place, and new players are encouraged to buy plex obtain in game money for items.There are a lot of arguments for pay to win on Eve. The recent stuff I read about people spending thousands wasn't online, it was an article written in game informer. It was actually an article about free to play, or pay to win. I'll look for the issue if I can still find it. However I don't consider Eve to even be the same genre, because it's set in space it doesn't play very much like what you would consider MMO. Your avatar is basically your ship, your avatar doesn't matter, race doesn't matter, moving around plays more like an RTS than a RPG. You are obviously passionate about it, all I can say is I'm jealous, I wish I could be passionate about a game again.

#10 Posted by neatfeatguy (3410 posts) -

@Evan21: I suppose it all depends on your point of view.

I personally did not like WoW - it was dull, too easy and questing was very uninteresting. I tried Asheron's Call and it did catch my attention. I enjoyed Asheron's Call 2 more, but to each their own.

I think a true MMO still exists, but not in a graphical game. I still enjoy playing my first true love in a multi-player experience game - a MUD. I don't play it as much as I used to, but I still go back to it agian and again. Granted MUDs are played less and less, but true role-playing exists and you actually help create the moments. You can place stats, choose skills availalble to your build in any sort of manner you choose.

For example: you could build a cookie-cutter Warrior - strong, ability to wield different weapons and excel at physical feats of strenth. Or if you dare and are willing to put the hard work into it, you can build a Warrior that excels in Magic (compared to other Warriors, but pales in comparison to a Wizard or Sorcerer's magic abilities), but lacks in a the hitting/tanking power of the cookie-cutter Warriors.

Or maybe you want to travel the road of a War Mage - harness the striking power of your weapon, while relying on your Magic as a secondary attack. Whereas a true Mage dominates with Magic while lacking the ability to utilize their weapon as an attack option.

Maybe you want to play a Rogue that trains heavly in stealth and picking pockets while dabbling in the ability to pick locks and disarm traps....perhaps you wish to have your Rogue dabble in Magic while neglecting their ability to pick/disarm as well as other Rogues. Then again, maybe you want a Rogue that excels in ranged combat (bow & arrow) and stealth.....

You could just be someone that likes the idea of playing a gnome race and could care less about your class and skills, you just want to roleplay. Then again, maybe you want a big, dumb-type race to play an idiot savant of a Magic wielding character. You can pick and choose your path - how you plan your character build, who you want to interact with and how you want to approach the world. A MUD is the last true MMO left out there in my opinion.

#11 Posted by Evan21 (86 posts) -

@neatfeatguy: What little I know about MUDs I can say it isn't an MMORPG. I lost my childlike imagination ages ago. I need a graphical representation. Although most of the elements you speak of existed in the games I spoke of. Which is why I miss them so.

#12 Posted by gadrincarrot (8 posts) -

I fully agree with you, modern MMORPG's are not what they used to be, and I do feel like all of this is going to get even worse. I had faith in some of the upcoming mmo's, you know.. maybe it will be something different, something like it should be. But unfortunately, all I was left with was dissapointment. My future goal is to make an MMORPG like that, something that other mmo games lack ;)

#13 Edited by MBirdy88 (7146 posts) -

You have to have a lot of free time, and an imagination to make games like Ultima and EVE worthwhile.... another problem with the older model is, the later you join... the harder time you will have catching up. Also the cut throat nature of open-pvp .... everyone who has power just murders everyone... because why not?

I've got over the days where I pined for the same thing as you.... but having seen my friend group think they are amazing because they raid and whenever I bring up "Theme Park" I get incredible verbal abuse as if I insulted their families... and questions like "whats the point in playing EVE?" ... and the guy who thinks hes the smartest in the group goes on about "Games where players have to make the content are badly designed, empty and pointless." "Games need high linear challenges to make them worthwhile" (yet plays minecraft ironically) are the kinda guys that dominate this genre now.... the kind that have played World of Warcraft for the last 10 years... said its getting old... and now switched to WildStar, rushed to max level in like 4 days and will no repeat that same "raiding is the only worthwhile thing in MMOs" mentallity for probably another 10 years.

I just play FFXIV: ARR now, semi-casual ... because I love the FF universe and its very polished for what it is. but MMORPG now is just RPG-Co-OP with large static virtual lobbys in between. and sadly no game on the horizon looks to change that. unless you count lesser low-production value titles like repopulation.... in all reality its not going to do anything.

#14 Posted by jairogeorge (3 posts) -

I've dabbled in various different MMORPGs over the years, though the one I put significant time into was Shadowbane. There was no real questing to speak of, just grinding to increase in levels. Where the game shone though was in its PVP element. Everywhere was PVP, you couldn't avoid it. There was also nothing to stop you from attacking people from another guild who were 20 levels lower than you. The game also allowed the guilds to build their own cities and facilities and to control their own areas. That's what a MMORPG should be for me, if I want a PVE experience I'll play a single player game with a decent story.

I haven't paid close attention to MMORPGs over the years but I'd be surprised if there was a game like Shadowbane out there now. All new MMORPGs just seem to protect the players too much. If anyone can recommend me a game that will give me a Shadowbane like fix I'd appreciate it :)

#15 Posted by -wildflower- (2842 posts) -

If Turbine would remake Asheron's Call with modestly updated graphics (nothing "next-gen") and a tweaked skill system but keep the item randomization, evolving world and story, I think I would play that game, like, forever.

#16 Posted by blueinheaven (53 posts) -

I never played Asheron's Call because it was so ugly. I started to play it but the graphics really were abysmal even for the time. I was into Ultima Online in a big way and tried AC but just couldn't get past the fact it looked like multiplayer shareware.

Everquest was the first real big one and I really loved it. Everyone played together and bartered together and guilded together and helped each other yes total strangers go out of your way for them we really did do all that and if you didn't know how to play your class and couldn't be bothered to learn you got shunned. Pretty much the opposite to WoW and even moreso the online games that preceded both games. They are now so easy there's no point thinking about anything other than hmmm.... what uber crap shall I buy in the item mall today? Pathetic.

Today's MMO's are single player games in an online chat room. Even people in guilds don't play together much they just chat in guild chat about what they're doing on their own. Massively Singleplayer Online games do absolutely zilch for me.

#17 Posted by Cruxis27 (1902 posts) -
#18 Edited by cyloninside (390 posts) -

wildstar is a real MMO... and it is doing very well. it is probably your best bet right now.

#19 Posted by lawlessx (46249 posts) -

wildstar is a real MMO... and it is doing very well. it is probably your best bet right now.

except wildstar is exactly the kind of MMO the TC isn't interested in playing.

#20 Edited by MBirdy88 (7146 posts) -

wildstar is a real MMO... and it is doing very well. it is probably your best bet right now.

.... pretty much WoW in space. but with a harsher difficulty.

A hard theme park, is still just a theme park.

#21 Edited by NeoGen85 (4137 posts) -

What you all miss is the time-sink which not only created your experience but a community. The first generation of MMORPGs had ways of making you interact with players and subscribe longer. This just isn't limited to expansions, and content patches but the game design itself.

The TC said that while playing Asheron's Call, he requested help from a individual who was creating spells. You had to not only invest time in your skills per magic school and the attributes aligned with them; but actually take up a wand and consume ingredients to create spells to use. This moment of downtime was a excellent way to familiarize yourself with other players. The same thing with resting between battles; literally having to /sleep, /laydown, or /rest to regenerate health faster over time. And you were doing this for every handful of mobs, so if you're with a party you spend a considerable amount of time chatting.

Having no auction house made crafting and bartering even more important. Hell, linking items in chat is more of a luxury. The Elder Scrolls Online at least puts some emphasis on that(although that could be changing). And then we have the world map. Asheron's Call did have this from launch, but Everquest did not. In fact, there use to be a website that had these horrible drawn maps which helped players navigate through zones. You pretty much hat to alt tab out of the game to figure out where you were. I don't remember how many times I got lost in my first adventures in Norrath. At the same time it provided a wow factor when it came to discovery.

Even though some of these games had quests, many of them were poorly designed. But since direction was lacking, there's also a sense of mystery which we really don't see in today's MMORPG. With that said, your experience became your quest and your adventure. Here's a good example. If you are near death, and someone comes to your rescue in a theme park MMORPG you're still going to be grateful for the help. But it isn't as dynamic since the odds of this happening are increased because everyone is "adventuring" in the same area and doing the same task. There were times in Asheron's Call and Everquest where I decided to explore beyond the boundaries of my own level and trek into remote territory that was dangerous. The keyword is "remote".

A perfect example of this is a level 1 player crossing the river at the foot of Holtburg, going into the woods, and heading southeast towards the Arwic Mountains in AC. While there are other safe ways to get there(by road or portal), I guarantee you this particular path will give a newbie little to no encounters with another player, let alone a helpful NPC. Plus the trek is a good 15 to 20 minutes if he or she doesn't get lost. Now pair this with a night sky, and a monitor with a !&^% up contrast. Imagine being on the verge of death from a higher level set of enemies knowing people can't see your /shout. You think it's over, but out of NOWHERE your guardian angel appears striking down your foes. He or she fits the part. The cool armor set, the amazing sword that shines bright, and the power to back it up. You're both are headed in the same direction. You not only found the perfect travel guide but the help you so desperately needed. I can't make this $%^& up. Granted, this same type of experience can happen in a MMORPG today. But I haven't been able to tell a story like that since Star Wars Galaxies.

And someone already mentioned endgame in this topic. While raids and instant PvP are great additions for endgame, no MMORPG should rely on just those two. That's one of the reasons why I'm looking forward to Archeage. While the game initially offers what you come to expect from the traditional themepark MMORPG, you'll begin to realize how deep Archeage can be as it slowly begins to introduce the player to tools that provide a sandbox experience. I'm only level 23 in the alpha but I am definitely liking what I see.

#22 Edited by krazyorange (2608 posts) -

I can't agree with you more, and yet I don't see this changing any of the big publisher's minds. WoW is ten years old and still has millions of active accounts. TORtanic, ESO, and Destiny is/are/will be among the most expensive games in history and yet they're nothing but themeparkage. The only horizon I see is with Kickstarter and/or Shroud of the Avatar. This kind of system lets players pay for exactly what they want and not what the publisher/dev thinks they want.

It's almost like you're speaking about the Gothic series though, or Morrowind. Before all this level scaling shit that plagues MMOs, because people can't be bothered with a challenge. But the grinding was always there, even back in the old days. It was disguised as something else, but the mechanics were the same. It's the only way to make an MMO in any case, unless you have a team of ten thousand designers and ten years of time. I mean EQ2 has like eight or nine thousand quests and from what I've seen at least 75% are fetch or grinds. It makes up for it in other areas, but it's the same deal. I've not played EVE thanks to the mountain of research required to get into it, but Star Trek Online is proving to be fairly solid. I'm only 30 or so hours in on my second character but so far there are hardly any fetch or grinding quests......or rather, there are, they are simply more obtuse than "Go kill eight red-scaled lizards." I could just be seeing the game through cat's eyes, who knows.

I tried to get into Rift recently too, but three hours in (I know, I know) and literally every single quest was a "go here, kill x of y." Great intro to the world.

#23 Edited by Evan21 (86 posts) -

"If Turbine would remake Asheron's Call with modestly updated graphics (nothing "next-gen") and a tweaked skill system but keep the item randomization, evolving world and story, I think I would play that game, like, forever."

@-wildflower- THIS^^^^

#24 Edited by Evan21 (86 posts) -
@NeoGen85 said:

What you all miss is the time-sink which not only created your experience but a community. The first generation of MMORPGs had ways of making you interact with players and subscribe longer. This just isn't limited to expansions, and content patches but the game design itself.

The TC said that while playing Asheron's Call, he requested help from a individual who was creating spells. You had to not only invest time in your skills per magic school and the attributes aligned with them; but actually take up a wand and consume ingredients to create spells to use. This moment of downtime was a excellent way to familiarize yourself with other players. The same thing with resting between battles; literally having to /sleep, /laydown, or /rest to regenerate health faster over time. And you were doing this for every handful of mobs, so if you're with a party you spend a considerable amount of time chatting.

Having no auction house made crafting and bartering even more important. Hell, linking items in chat is more of a luxury. The Elder Scrolls Online at least puts some emphasis on that(although that could be changing). And then we have the world map. Asheron's Call did have this from launch, but Everquest did not. In fact, there use to be a website that had these horrible drawn maps which helped players navigate through zones. You pretty much hat to alt tab out of the game to figure out where you were. I don't remember how many times I got lost in my first adventures in Norrath. At the same time it provided a wow factor when it came to discovery.

Even though some of these games had quests, many of them were poorly designed. But since direction was lacking, there's also a sense of mystery which we really don't see in today's MMORPG. With that said, your experience became your quest and your adventure. Here's a good example. If you are near death, and someone comes to your rescue in a theme park MMORPG you're still going to be grateful for the help. But it isn't as dynamic since the odds of this happening are increased because everyone is "adventuring" in the same area and doing the same task. There were times in Asheron's Call and Everquest where I decided to explore beyond the boundaries of my own level and trek into remote territory that was dangerous. The keyword is "remote".

A perfect example of this is a level 1 player crossing the river at the foot of Holtburg, going into the woods, and heading southeast towards the Arwic Mountains in AC. While there are other safe ways to get there(by road or portal), I guarantee you this particular path will give a newbie little to no encounters with another player, let alone a helpful NPC. Plus the trek is a good 15 to 20 minutes if he or she doesn't get lost. Now pair this with a night sky, and a monitor with a !&^% up contrast. Imagine being on the verge of death from a higher level set of enemies knowing people can't see your /shout. You think it's over, but out of NOWHERE your guardian angel appears striking down your foes. He or she fits the part. The cool armor set, the amazing sword that shines bright, and the power to back it up. You're both are headed in the same direction. You not only found the perfect travel guide but the help you so desperately needed. I can't make this $%^& up. Granted, this same type of experience can happen in a MMORPG today. But I haven't been able to tell a story like that since Star Wars Galaxies.

And someone already mentioned endgame in this topic. While raids and instant PvP are great additions for endgame, no MMORPG should rely on just those two. That's one of the reasons why I'm looking forward to Archeage. While the game initially offers what you come to expect from the traditional themepark MMORPG, you'll begin to realize how deep Archeage can be as it slowly begins to introduce the player to tools that provide a sandbox experience. I'm only level 23 in the alpha but I am definitely liking what I see.

This is someone who gets it. Remember how long it took to get from place to place? It was a real decision to move or stick around your current familiar situation. I have hope for Archeage but I don't think it will satisfy the cravings I have for that old school adventure. I don't understand why there isn't at least one game like this out there of any recent date. I guess I can only blame WoW for it's success. Everyone tries to mimic success and we all pay for it. If they recreated the EXACT same game with better visuals, animations etc. I would be playing it right now. I don't know why they don't. 15 years later people are still paying to play, or were, as of recent developments.

#25 Posted by Blutfahne (162 posts) -

I remember the first few years of SWG, twas amazing. This grand sandbox experience ruined all future mmo's for me. I try some trials and they all do not have that sense of wonder/danger. They are are safe little rides where anybody can ride no matter their height.

#26 Edited by FelipeInside (25036 posts) -

They are are safe little rides where anybody can ride no matter their height.

Try Wildstar and see how safe you feel...

#28 Posted by Blutfahne (162 posts) -

@blutfahne said:

They are are safe little rides where anybody can ride no matter their height.

Try Wildstar and see how safe you feel...

Looks like you missed it.

#29 Posted by FelipeInside (25036 posts) -

@FelipeInside said:

@blutfahne said:

They are are safe little rides where anybody can ride no matter their height.

Try Wildstar and see how safe you feel...

Looks like you missed it.

Missed what?

#30 Edited by lawlessx (46249 posts) -

@blutfahne said:

@FelipeInside said:

@blutfahne said:

They are are safe little rides where anybody can ride no matter their height.

Try Wildstar and see how safe you feel...

Looks like you missed it.

Missed what?

pretty much the entire point of his post and this thread. Themepark MMOs are for the most part very controlled and safe.

#31 Posted by FelipeInside (25036 posts) -

@lawlessx said:

@FelipeInside said:

@blutfahne said:

@FelipeInside said:

@blutfahne said:

They are are safe little rides where anybody can ride no matter their height.

Try Wildstar and see how safe you feel...

Looks like you missed it.

Missed what?

pretty much the entire point of his post and this thread. Themepark MMOs are for the most part very controlled and safe.

I didn't miss that, I just recommended Wildstar cause even though it's a themepark MMO, it tries to cater towards the original themepark MMOs where there was danger everywhere... and battles weren't as easy as today's MMOs are.

#32 Edited by Maroxad (7834 posts) -

@FelipeInside said:

I didn't miss that, I just recommended Wildstar cause even though it's a themepark MMO, it tries to cater towards the original themepark MMOs where there was danger everywhere... and battles weren't as easy as today's MMOs are.

Maybe it changes later on, but WildStar was an utter breeze throughout the entire time I played before I quit and uninstalled, which was about a week before exams took priority. Hell, on one of the boards I have (mostly) migrated to, people would solo WildStar's elite mobs, mobs that mind you were meant to be taken out by a group.

#33 Posted by FelipeInside (25036 posts) -

@Maroxad said:

@FelipeInside said:

@lawlessx said:

pretty much the entire point of his post and this thread. Themepark MMOs are for the most part very controlled and safe.

I didn't miss that, I just recommended Wildstar cause even though it's a themepark MMO, it tries to cater towards the original themepark MMOs where there was danger everywhere... and battles weren't as easy as today's MMOs are.

Maybe it changes later on, but WildStar was an utter breeze throughout the entire time I played before I quit and uninstalled, which was about a week before exams took priority. Hell, on one of the boards I have (mostly) migrated to, people would solo WildStar's elite mobs.

I was strictly comparing it to other themeparks MMOs. It's more challenging, especially in some dungeons (people actually die on boss fights). Not saying it has the difficulty of something like Original Sin, just that at least it tries to provide a challenge.

#34 Edited by bussinrounds (1973 posts) -

Never got into mmos. Everything from the shitty treadmill design, horrible 'collect 10 wolf pelt' quests, exploiting the juvenile desires to flaunt dressed up characters in an attempt to gain some kind of online "cred" or gain attention from players with inferior equ..

I did hear that Ultima Online was very different from all the WoW/clones, ect... though.

Plus most of the time I play games to get away from ppl, not be thrown in with a whole bunch of random jerkoffs. Partying up with a small group of friends or playing co-op always appealed to me more, as far as having to play mp goes.

#35 Posted by NeoGen85 (4137 posts) -

@bussinrounds Thanks for your input. Will you be playing Destiny?

Wildstar is definitely has challenging dungeons. I definitely felt a sense of accomplishment after completing them. However, the game also made me realize that I've been playing themepark MMORPGs for too long. This includes The Elder Scrolls Online. While I may have enjoyed ESO because I'm a big TES fan, the lacklustered veteran rank content(which in my mind should have been designed differently) is a waste of time!

#36 Edited by bussinrounds (1973 posts) -

@NeoGen85 said:

@bussinrounds Thanks for your input. Will you be playing Destiny?

Just googled it and that would be a definite negative.

Not into competitive FPS online at all.

#37 Posted by lawlessx (46249 posts) -

@NeoGen85 said:

@bussinrounds Thanks for your input. Will you be playing Destiny?

Just googled it and that would be a definite negative.

Not into competitive FPS online at all.

there is also a big co-op aspect in the game. doing quests and such

#38 Edited by Evan21 (86 posts) -
@bussinrounds said:

Never got into mmos. Everything from the shitty treadmill design, horrible 'collect 10 wolf pelt' quests, exploiting the juvenile desires to flaunt dressed up characters in an attempt to gain some kind of online "cred" or gain attention from players with inferior equ..

I did hear that Ultima Online was very different from all the WoW/clones, ect... though.

Plus most of the time I play games to get away from ppl, not be thrown in with a whole bunch of random jerkoffs. Partying up with a small group of friends or playing co-op always appealed to me more, as far as having to play mp goes.

This is because you didn't play the older ones like Ultima. Probably too young, but all of the newer MMOs feel just as annoying to me as they appear to you.

#39 Edited by Evan21 (86 posts) -

@lawlessx said:

@FelipeInside said:

@blutfahne said:

@FelipeInside said:

@blutfahne said:

They are are safe little rides where anybody can ride no matter their height.

Try Wildstar and see how safe you feel...

Looks like you missed it.

Missed what?

pretty much the entire point of his post and this thread. Themepark MMOs are for the most part very controlled and safe.

I didn't miss that, I just recommended Wildstar cause even though it's a themepark MMO, it tries to cater towards the original themepark MMOs where there was danger everywhere... and battles weren't as easy as today's MMOs are.

Wildstar is the same crap, you do seem to be missing the point a little.

#40 Posted by bussinrounds (1973 posts) -

@Evan21 said:

This is because you didn't play the older ones like Ultima. Probably too young

I'm 39. Always been more of a sp guy. Like I said, I want to get away from ppl when I play games, for the most part, not meet them. lol

#41 Posted by Evan21 (86 posts) -

@bussinrounds: HA! I understand that, still, even without the people, there was a sense of danger, and a sense of discovery that doesn't exist today. Also the loot and progression systems made you feel unique in the world. Just better games.

#42 Edited by FelipeInside (25036 posts) -

@Evan21 said:

Wildstar is the same crap, you do seem to be missing the point a little.

Your point was about sandbox MMOs, and that themepark MMOs aren't the "real" MMOs (whatever that means).

My post was just responding saying that themepark MMOs are usually safer than sandbox. This is true but Wildstar makes it a bit more challenging in parts.

#43 Edited by NeoGen85 (4137 posts) -

I will admit that even though I do enjoy those old MMORPGs, I do appreciate some of the changes that we have seen in today's generation. While I do miss the mystery, wonder, and adventure there are some gameplay mechanics that were flawed.

#44 Posted by FelipeInside (25036 posts) -

@NeoGen85 said:

While I do miss the mystery, wonder, and adventure

Try The Secret World and LOTRO. They both do a fabulous job at giving you that mystery and wonder and adventure from the old days.

#45 Edited by NeoGen85 (4137 posts) -
@FelipeInside said:

@NeoGen85 said:

While I do miss the mystery, wonder, and adventure

Try The Secret World and LOTRO. They both do a fabulous job at giving you that mystery and wonder and adventure from the old days.

I've played both[and pretty much every major retail release since 2000]. The Secret World has some interesting quests, a good story, and lore. I am not too fond of LOTRO but it is a pretty decent MMORPG. What I miss about the genre is large landscape design. I don't find the worlds of today's MMORPGs as immersive. While these games are still fun to me, streamlining the genre has put everything in close proximity to each other. You never really see a smooth transition from one type of biome to another. One zone it's snowing, and the next zone over is filled with ash and volcanoes.

While I'm not a big fan of DayZ, I love how a new player can walk into the forest and be lost for hours. I had similar experiences in Asheron's Call while exploring. Several day and night cycles going by without seeing another player, a quest giver, or even the next town. Just a bunch of !@(&^ sand, mountainous terrain, jungles, swamps, or forest for miles! Not to mention, the further I would wander the tougher everything got. I'm thinking, how the #*&^ do you get out? You might have some luck and stumble across something amazing; or perhaps have no luck at all. There were many times where after dying miles away from safety, I refuse to go back for my corpse because I couldn't pin point it's exact location.

While I dislike the idea of corpse runs, and a lack of transportation there are some positives to having longer time-sinks.

#46 Posted by Gammit10 (2233 posts) -

I wish the cost to develop these games wasn't so insane, because I only see more middle-road and indie groups as those who would likely make a niche MMORPGs, such as one OP is describing. I too wish for more variety in MMORPGs, and that's the main reason I stopped playing them.

#47 Posted by Klyern (115 posts) -

I agree totally with you, games like Lineage 2, Mu online, Ragnarok online, those were real morpgs, games were roaming was encouraged, were you could go anywhere you want and level with anyone. I was mindlessly grinding and i knew the difference, but It didnt dawn on me until i played Ragnarok 2 last year that this was truly a descent into obscurity and not just a trend, It dawned on me because even a great game and franchise like it was Ragnarok, decided to "take a bullet" for profits, or "sell out" for what was new and popular in the market, and chose the linear streamlined approach to "gaming", and that to me isnt a real morpg.

A morpg that doesnt encourage random/spontaneous social grouping should not be called a morpg in my opinion, guild wars 2 kind of found a way to return to that glory with downscaling, but its a farcry in a world full of shameful streamlined products.

#48 Posted by MBirdy88 (7146 posts) -

@NeoGen85 said:

While I do miss the mystery, wonder, and adventure

Try The Secret World and LOTRO. They both do a fabulous job at giving you that mystery and wonder and adventure from the old days.

-_-; you are really missing the point.

They both lead you.... a sandbox doesn't lead you through a story, that's not the mystery, thats the theme park.

The sense of mystery and danger he is refering to is being thrown into a seemless huge world where you use your own inititive to improve your character in many different ways, every zone you go to is dangerous... and I dont mean "oh an elite mob" I mean dangerous as in enemies of very varied levels, unusual extras and the thread of losing your gold/gear to a murderer(player) or evil guilds in general. Where the "good and evil" outside of monsters and story content was the Good Guilds vs the Criminal guilds ect. and then there is the large element of "traveling long distances is a big deal" has completely gone.

None of the modern MMO's do this. they are all "enter level 1-10 area zone.... follow quest trail... fear nothing... just look at the pretty scenery, kill til done... move to next ride, rince and repeat".

#49 Posted by NeoGen85 (4137 posts) -
@MBirdy88 said:

@FelipeInside said:

@NeoGen85 said:

While I do miss the mystery, wonder, and adventure

Try The Secret World and LOTRO. They both do a fabulous job at giving you that mystery and wonder and adventure from the old days.

-_-; you are really missing the point.

They both lead you.... a sandbox doesn't lead you through a story, that's not the mystery, thats the theme park.

The sense of mystery and danger he is refering to is being thrown into a seemless huge world where you use your own inititive to improve your character in many different ways, every zone you go to is dangerous... and I dont mean "oh an elite mob" I mean dangerous as in enemies of very varied levels, unusual extras and the thread of losing your gold/gear to a murderer(player) or evil guilds in general. Where the "good and evil" outside of monsters and story content was the Good Guilds vs the Criminal guilds ect. and then there is the large element of "traveling long distances is a big deal" has completely gone.

None of the modern MMO's do this. they are all "enter level 1-10 area zone.... follow quest trail... fear nothing... just look at the pretty scenery, kill til done... move to next ride, rince and repeat".

Exactly. Imagine Goldshire being 5 to 7 times larger. It would be a dense forest. And those NPCs offering quest are just a bit harder to find in the thick of it. Those enemies even tougher.

#50 Posted by FelipeInside (25036 posts) -

@NeoGen85 said:
@MBirdy88 said:

@FelipeInside said:

@NeoGen85 said:

While I do miss the mystery, wonder, and adventure

Try The Secret World and LOTRO. They both do a fabulous job at giving you that mystery and wonder and adventure from the old days.

-_-; you are really missing the point.

They both lead you.... a sandbox doesn't lead you through a story, that's not the mystery, thats the theme park.

The sense of mystery and danger he is refering to is being thrown into a seemless huge world where you use your own inititive to improve your character in many different ways, every zone you go to is dangerous... and I dont mean "oh an elite mob" I mean dangerous as in enemies of very varied levels, unusual extras and the thread of losing your gold/gear to a murderer(player) or evil guilds in general. Where the "good and evil" outside of monsters and story content was the Good Guilds vs the Criminal guilds ect. and then there is the large element of "traveling long distances is a big deal" has completely gone.

None of the modern MMO's do this. they are all "enter level 1-10 area zone.... follow quest trail... fear nothing... just look at the pretty scenery, kill til done... move to next ride, rince and repeat".

Exactly. Imagine Goldshire being 5 to 7 times larger. It would be a dense forest. And those NPCs offering quest are just a bit harder to find in the thick of it. Those enemies even tougher.

I see what you guys mean.

I guess MMOs aren't as big anymore due to game size. Before the textures, animations, sounds etc were all lower quality so you could fit a bigger map.

I still would prefer to have a smaller map with more detail and immersion rather than a huge map with copy and paste where you walk for hours just to get to the next quest.