"Why I don't criticize Islam"

Stumbled upon this article written by an atheist: http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/why-i-dont-criticise-islam-1747762439

Every soul on this forum ought to read this article as I think it might very well mark the beginning of a new age in OT religious debate circlejerk.

Here are some important parts:

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The more I researched, the more it became glaringly obvious that terrorism and fundamentalism are rooted less in religion and more in despair and political impotency. Later I would come to reject New Atheism for old fashioned, vanilla atheism.

I am often asked, “Why is it you don’t criticise Islam?” And until now I have never really answered that - so here goes nothing.

Firstly, I have and do criticise Islam when and where it’s practised in extreme interpretations: blasphemy laws, bigotry, honour killings, anti-intellectualism, apostasy and misogyny. It’s important to note there is no shortage of New Atheist, neo-conservative, and nationalistic writers and bloggers to criticise a form of religion we all hate – fundamentalism.

What good can come about by me piling on?

How does declaring Muslims to be “utterly deranged by their religious tribalism” help end religious extremism? How does piling on Islam help the Palestinians as they’re seized upon by the brutal and oppressive apartheid state of Israel, or the majority of secular Egyptians as they’re brutalised by Egypt’s military state?

If you believe referring to Muslims as “savages” and “suicide bombers in waiting” to be an effective strategy for a religious extremist-free world, you’re as “deranged” as the fundamentalists you mock. If you believe we are locked in a battle to cleanse the world of evil, well, that’s precisely what Islamic and Christian fundamentalists believe, too.

Far too many New Atheists naively believe education and scientific advancement is the antidote for religious extremism. This belief does not reconcile with human history, nor does it square the fact that religious extremism is practised in many highly developed nations, and that many scientists are religious. “Those who teach that religion is evil and that science and reason will save us are as deluded as those who believe in angels and demons,” notes Chris Hedges.

What is the New Atheist strategy for ending Islamic fundamentalism? Is it name calling or belittling? Is it the exultation of Western secular values – the same value system that gave us two world wars, the Holocaust, gulags, colonialism, two atomic bombs, the Cold War, resource-motivated wars, imperial projects, paid slavery, the free market fascism of globalisation and global warming?

Is it to urge mass protests in the Muslim world? Palestinian-American journalist Rula Jebreal reminds us: “There are precious few countries in the Arab world where citizens are currently free to hold a mass rally about anything. And the reason for that, of course, is that if citizens were at liberty to express themselves, they’d likely focus on mass unemployment, corruption and the authoritarianism of their rulers before they turn to the problem of ISIS.”

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To each obnoxious atheist on this site (not all), this guy is one of you. The only difference is, he's actually done his homework. He's actually read the Quran, visited Muslim countries and done an extensive search on the matter. The difference between his opinion and yours is obvious.

Tripe.

If anyone is interested the author of the piece is CJ Werleman...a known plagiarist and is essentially the Kim Kardashian of atheism. Which makes this even more ridiculous...CJ Werleman makes his living essentially nailing Christianity to the wall.

His books:

God Hates You. Hate Him Back

Jesus Lied. He Was Only Human

Which really goes to show the sheer dishonesty and hypocrisy of the OP and the other two resident wahhabist we have on these boards.

Don't draw bad picture of our prophet! Respect us! Be civilized! Oh, here's a nice article by a guy who literally publishes books that rakes your entire religious beliefs over the coals...enjoy :)

I try my best not to generalise or criticise entire religions or people because I'm aware of how ignorant I am of those subjects; not something I'm particularly proud of but at let I own it instead of pretending I'm so righteous and knowledgeable that I can tell other people how to do things right.

Also, yes, I'm an atheist...hopefully not one of the obnoxious ones though ;-)

>Doesn't read the article.

>Thinks his opinion amounts to shit.

No, you're not one of them. One is right above you though.

>Read the article

>Also knows who the author is

>Also notices the generalizations about other cultures in it

>Sees the blatant hypocrisy in it and your posting of it

Next time, don't assume ;)

Some Muslims are lovely people, some are absolute scum. Generalisations are dumb.

However don't confuse that with saying Islam as an ideology is free from criticism or that you must respect all Muslims even if they are bat shit crazy ISIS supporters.

Criticism is fine. Generalizations and ignorance, which are mainly what the author is getting at, are bad.

Criticizing and attacking an entire religion or religion in general is probably counter-productive for many atheists. If you think about there is probably quite a bit of common ground that most atheists and most believers can work on, but when New Atheists start ridiculing religion en masse they lose an opportunity they had to work together and dialogue with people of faith on issues such as poverty, terrorist, and environmental conservation for example.

Also I like that the atheist article author is skeptical of the secular supremacism that seems common among many "new" atheists. Though I must ask what is a vanilla atheist? Are there chocolate, strawberry, rocky road and Neapolitan atheists?

Criticizing religion in general as the obviously fictional wish-thinking that it is kinda goes hand-in-hand with accepting an atheistic view of things. The same way you believe every religion but yours is false, so atheists believe they all are false. As someone said before, I just believe in one less God than you.

@br0kenrabbit: but see that insulting tone and poor word choice "obviously fictional" that you guys use alienate people of faith and reduce your ability to find common ground with us.

And I think if this keeps up, the religious left may have to break with the secular left.

So you accept that atheism is a set of beliefs and not just a lack of belief? I'm relieved.

Not all atheists are 'intellectual atheists'. And what I mean by that, is that they are not so much concerned about the facts of things than they are by their lack of belief. They simply don't care what the facts are, they just lack belief in religion.

Then there's the rest...people like myself who are after the truth. We study, we comprehend, we debate and we learn. We find the universe amazing just how it is, with all its mathematic intricacies and details, and begin to see a different kind of relationship between humans and our environs and fellow man. The kind of relationship the religious right seems hell-bent on usurping.

The religious believe we can't remove ourselves from existence because that's a power only God has. We atheists stand in awe-struck fear of such attitudes, as we see how truly fragile our existence here is. It (existence) is a balancing act that most species lose, and we're leaning too far to one side of the tightrope for safety.

When I say 'obviously fictional', I'm saying so from the view of my knowledge of history, language, peoples and religion. I know Yahweh's story as it existed before being adopted by the Jews, for instance. It's obvious in light of this knowledge, is what I'm saying, not that it should be clearly obvious to anyone. Like anything, you have to educate yourself to be aware.

Atheism is lack of religious belief. Period.

Just because I can explain 'the divine' with math and physics doesn't mean I've substituted one belief for another: it simply means I've educated myself on the practical aspects of existence to have an understanding of the facts.

I wish I knew what you're talking about right now but unfortunately I'm listening to some really calm classic songs atm and it feels like being on drugs so what you're saying is seeming too deep :-P

if your beliefs ( or lack thereof ) are used to try to justify hurting other people, your beliefs are shit.

Maybe Muslims could just try growing up and taking criticism?

I'm seeing more and more that this culture of feeling like they should be free of criticism.

Every time I see debate break out I see non stop finger pointing. Something I don't see when I argue with christian fundamentalists.

I'm beginning to think maybe this is a major reason why the middle east doesn't seem to evolve as the world evolves around it.

I feel like if you can't criticize yourself or your beliefs even a little, you will not grow, and the same may be true among a group of people.

@br0kenrabbit: You consider yourself to be an intellectual atheist, right? I think most people aren't intellectuals. Just as there are among atheists, there are also intellectual and non-intellectual believers? For instance Benedict XVI and John Paul II would be intellectuals, but I'm not sure about Pope Francis, he did teach chemistry, but he seems more of a common man than an intellectual.

By existence, are you talking about the possibility of humans going extinct as a species? I would agree that Christians, Jews and Muslims generally don't believe that humans will go extinct from natural or man-made causes.

nine tenths of Egyptians think apostates should be put to death. sooo......I'd say these secular Egyptians are a very small minority.

There are two types of intellectual theists: the majority, who focus their study on affirmation (studying materials vetted by their faith) and the few truly honest who have no choice but to openly declare "much of what is written wasn't so, but I still believe in the overall message".

It's the difference between people who say "Genesis was written by Moses" and those who know who 'J, E, and P' are.

The first, the majority, I wouldn't consider true intellectuals. They're affirmists, they only have knowledge of their particular viewpoint of their religion and that's all they study. Very few people who consider themselves intellectual theists fall outside of this scope. These are Sunday School teachers and Deacons and what have you...the true devotees...the ignorant.

And yes, I mean extinct as a species.

Yeah no, there is something wrong with Islam itself considering the crazy amount of violence in this world that is committed by people on behalf of their Islamic beliefs.

Shit will not change until the Muslim community recognizes the shitty parts of their beliefs and does away with them. The religion needs to grow up already. Christianity has changed much over the centuries and it STILL is working on improving itself (I.e. actually accepting the gay community).

Aaaand Thread/

>Title of the article : "Why I don't criticize Islam"

>Your argument: "He criticizes Christianity but not Islam blabla"

The article itself is the reason why he doesn't criticize Islam. I could only have made one assumption off of it: you didn't read the article.

While I view religion as a whole as complete hogwash and the organizations it involves using it for power and wealth, I do respect those that find comfort in it and/or use it to do positive things towards people. Such as organize soup kitchens, canned food gathering for the poor, and overall things that help others despite differences.

It's when it's used to point fingers at others, used as an excuse to do violent acts, promote discrimination and intolerance. Then I'll speak out against it and those whom voice or act in such poor ways, often harshly and sometimes in a very disrespectful and rude manner. It does not matter what religion one follows at that point.

Nice one. Muslims still believe that the punishment for apostasy is death... I wish if only we could make education more common here.

Why I do: because it's a vapid morally bankrupt philosophy where you take payment in the afterlife for behavior, y'know just like christianity.

Also lol athiesm. nothing shows how rational and superior you are in not beliveing in unprovable bullshit than by wholeheartedly believeing in something that is competely unprovable and based entirely in faith.

oh shit i posted that in the wrong thread.

I had two windows open

I criticize all dogmatic belief systems. Some I criticize more than others because they have more impact on my day-to-day existence. Islam rarely has any quantifiable affect on daily life.

I'm an agnostic "atheist". I really don't care about belief systems and I wish they would all just leave me the alone.

Oh look, OT arguing over fairy tales again. So cute.

Just don't care about people's problem, gotta look out for myself.

@gwynnblade I think the idea that gets pegged the most, is that Muhammed was a pedophile or was into really young children. Maybe since you're more versed than people on this site that just cherry picks quotes; you can put into perspective or clear up the misconception of the idea itself.

@n64dd: I'd love to do that but the thing is, most people are willfully ignorant. Being ignorant is one thing, but being willfully ignorant is another. How exactly am I supposed to clear up the idea when the other part isn't even willing to listen?

Talk to just me. I will listen.

And those lovely people who are Muslim can take being criticized with out killing people over it.... This fucking apologist attitude trumpeted by many people is absolutely disgusting.. IF your faith is so unshakable than it shouldn't matter what is said about you or what you believe in.. In fact when you try to silence some one for it, it only illustrates how weak your conviction is.. Everything is criticized now a days, and I as a atheist really don't give a **** what radical Muslims think because if they had their way they would put me to death.

This article is tantamount to not disciplining a child because he may have a temper tantrum. And the more articles I have seen like this and the more "Muslims" I see like Gwyn, the more negative my view of this specific religious faith as a whole has become...

I don't criticize Islam because blanketing an entire complex system of beliefs would b stupid and ignorant of me, especially since the only Islamic folk that make headlines are the ones that make me want to vomit.

Pretty much. It's weird how low peoples standards are for Islam. It seems most of the time someone says "moderate Muslim" all they mean is someone who hasn't killed anyone directly. Yet when it comes to Christianity groups like the Westboro Baptist Church, who have never laid a finger on anyone, are considered extremists.

I strongly believe in treating everyone equally. No special treatment for anyone. A good Muslim is not someone who is good compared to other Muslims, they're a good person who happens to be a Muslim. If this way of defining people ends up labelling 99% of Muslims as extremists then so be it, but at least it is fair and equal.

I´m pretty much in the same position as you are.

You're suggesting that criticism be met with violence.

Why would anybody who isn't a sociopath recognize that as a legitimate view?

@n64dd: That's really nice of you. But this topic has already been discussed to death on here before.

If only it was Criticism though.

even if it is slander, that doesn't justify violence.

Look at the '04 elections in the united states. Some people came up with and spread outright lies about presidential candidate John kerry about his military record. It was met with John Kerry and his group denouncing it along with George Bush who he was running against.

That was the correct reaction. Not violence.

People should be allowed to say what they want about religion and political figures without repercussion. What you're suggesting is like where a child hits another for being called a bad word; it's not a proportional response, it muffles legitimate criticism and it causes violence.

Just look at the middle east. Incredible levels of violence, that's what your way of thinking produces.

... Then by all means go the legal route and press charges towards these people in a court of law.. Your a sociopath if you seriously think that this justifies murdering people.

You still didn't read the conversation.

Except it was.

and like I said, it doesn't matter, it doesn't justify violence.

Here we go ... again.

Its hilariously ironic really.. Followers get angry when their religion is criticized or made fun of for what is thought to be deranged aspects of it.. They respond in kind by showing how deranged they are by condoning violence to out right supporting it.. You cannot write better comedy than this.. If they don't want to be criticized, have some fucking class and character by ignoring it, not threatening people with violence.. Basically proving EVERY criticism leveled at it, playing into the hands of the people who are saying such negative things of their beliefs.

Surah 4:34

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Islam condones beating your wife if she disobeys you.

I will continue to criticize Islam until Muslims give up on the idea that their Qur'an is the literal word of God and was in fact a book written by an illiterate war chief who starved himself and had hallucinations in a cave and is based entirely on the morality of the time it was created and has little to nothing to offer a modern, sensible person in terms of spiritual or moral guidance.

People who cherry pick verses are miserable. People who don't even understand the verse they cherry pick are furthur miserable. People who don't even bother reading the verse they cherry pick are even more miserable. Miserable because they've got nothing else against Quran except cherry picking.

Quran is not created. It's the word of God.

Lies. God demands a shrubbery.

Speaking of Islam, when are the Khasum (short black people with lions claws) going to come from planet Ajiba that Muhammad ibn 'Abd Allah al-Kisa'i said would surely defeat Gog and Magog?

What about that planet with bird people? Sijjin was it?

Oh, religion...you so silly.

There was no cherry picking here. That was the entire verse quoted in context of the rest of the verse. It clearly said you can strike your wife if she disobeys you, along with withholding sex and showcasing the Qur'an's running theme of women being subservient to men.

And don't even get me started on the verse that talks about men and women being "spiritually equal" or whatever, that just proves a massive contradiction with the rest of the text and lends credence to the theory that it was in fact a book created by an illiterate war chief after hallucinating in a cave.

If people started looking past the literal, and drawing inspiration from the morally positive messages in the text, and ignoring the morally repugnant passages, I'd be more willing to give Muslims a fair chance at impressing me (in fact, I don't doubt a lot of them do this, but they don't advertise it) but they still hold fast to the idea that the entire text is perfect, unchanging, and an example of what a perfectly moral human being should be like.