*SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!* Kylo Ren is one of the most interesting Star Wars villains ever.

But the prequels are mostly disappointing movies with a few positives here and there!!!

You never answered how he had depth.

Oops, sorry about that. Well, he is a trainee that chooses the dark side since he believes it's the right path(not to just be evil like the others) to complete his goal of taking over for his grandfather to fulfill what he wants done. With that in mind this allows him to think about what the consequences are for his actions when things do or don't go his way. When he gets angry he actually lushes out his anger because he wishes everything goes well or according to plan as he has a rage that needs to be controlled, which also shows a weakness of him that could be explored. It's also a nice touch because you can feel what he goes through even if some of it is evil. Sometimes he even gets subdued by the lightside of the force which means he does care but at the same time still wants to complete his goal of using the dark side as a means to complete his destiny. As I said earlier he's still a trainee as his training hasn't been complete, so it's interesting to see a villain who isn't overpowered and actually vulnerable but still a threat and formidable foe to deal with. Basically he just wants the dark side to be the source of what would get him to where he is today, even if it's technically not the right choice overall. He may not have too much depth, but he has some here and there.

Kylo Ren is a big puss. Also it just hit me, I remember him force stopping a laser beam in mid air and kept it there for awhile at the beginning of the movie. Why couldn't he do the same thing when Chewie shot at him. I can't believe they made the child of strong parents, strong characters like Han and Leia, such a wuss that throws tantrums every time something didn't go his way lol. In the next films, I hope he gets cut in half, vertically.

I liked his character, but more than anything, I really liked that his development is pretty much the opposite of most standard characterization.

At the start you think he's this mysterious, stoic badass, but the longer the movie goes on, the more you realize he's just an under-trained, emotionally unstable kid, and all of it is a desperate front because he wants to be as cool as other sith.

Thats one way to look at it, I personally I think the masses have changed, most so called men are emo/hipster his character was purposefully made that way to appeal to the current generation.

@Vaasman: Yes, if the goal of the writers was to make him a character many people would not like, they did an excellent job.

Either we have different understandings of the word wuss or you just completely dodged my question. Being childish doesn't make you a wuss and that seems to be the only thing you are saying.

As for depth, the only other villain in Star Wars with more depth than Kylo Ren is Vader and only because of the prequels. Other than that all we see are one dimensional "this guys is just bad" characters. At least this guy's got a struggle, a story, and a personality.

@ShadowsDemon:

I did like that he isn’t fully Sith, (yet) and genuinely seems to be torn between the light and dark sides. The fact that he is so torn and given to mood swings and externalizations of his anger, I thought was well done, compared to Anakin, who they just have killing hordes of random people for seemingly no reason other than “I’m pissed!”

What would really be interesting for Episode VIII would be is if Luke, potentially is able to bring Ren back towards the light side, while Rey is seduced by the dark side of the force.

@Allicrombie:

One thing Abrams said he retained from Lucas's original vision is the tension within a single person of light and dark, and how easily one becomes evil. You can clearly see Abrams respected and expanded on that with Kylo's character. Like you, I believe Ren will eventually return to the light, but as for Rey turning evil, I'm not sure they could do something that gutsy. It would be interesting for sure, but thus far she has no penchant for darkness. Not really, aside from her maybe finishing Ren off if the planet had not torn. We will see.

That's a weak justification for "lols we don't know how to decently portray human morality so we'll make characters turn bad to good and good to bad faster than a modelocking pulse".

@N30F3N1X: Given the running time of a typical movie, I don't think it's realistic to have characters on screen pondering the philosophies of morality for hours.

.. Yeah its not like we have award winning movies out there that delve into such things effectively while going through their story or anything..

@sSubZerOo: That's kind of like saying, since we have some great neurosurgeons out there, everyone can become a great neurosurgeon, which isn't even close to being true. Just because movies exist with those qualities, doesn't mean that future movies, even if they could be enhanced by such qualities, will happen.

I didn't say characters would HAVE TO delve into morality and philosophy. I said they shouldn't be portrayed in such a ridiculously binary and arbitrary way.

In the movies the only reason for having light and dark sides is to tell a good guy from a bad guy in the cheapest way it could be done without using the words "good" and "bad". What's the point of having a system like that in place if it can be cheated on a whim?

And what you are saying is if we can be butchers, why should we bother studying to become neurosurgeons?

@N30F3N1X:

You do realize it's a two hour movie, right? A lot of times, the story will feel rushed because they have to tell it to you in a fast span of time. But also, I disagree with your point anyway, because it was not a fast transition from good to bad, rather it was all over the place because the character himself is all over the place.

I also do realize length had nothing to do with what I said, and I haven't once talked of the story. I was talking about your mention of the "original vision".

@N30F3N1X:

How is that weak AT ALL? They literally took the concept from the creator and expanded on in a way which the creator himself could not do in three movies. They outshine the good idea by making it even better than the author of the good idea could. If you wanted another Vader, then yeah, you'll be brutally disappointed. And then again, Rey herself said the most insightful thing about Ren to Ren: that he is afraid he will never measure up to the legacy of his grandfather.

........ Wait what? Are people just completely oblivious to the expanded universe of Star Wars? Kylo Ren is basically a watered down version of Revan.. He even looks like him.. Its painful to see people actually think Ren is actually some kind of new and unique character.. He isn't.. Nothing he says, does, is terribly deep or insightful.. And his internal turmoil was incredibly shallow and not very believable what so ever.. Which made matters far worse with the entire forced dialogue between Solo and him.

@sSubZerOo:

I've loved KOTOR since launch. I am well aware of the similarities, which are actually mainly cosmetic.

How is he not new?

How is not deep or insightful to be riddled with confusion upon having a primarily evil grandfather, a primarily good uncle, and a fairly ambivalent-leaning-good father and so not knowing where to land yourself? It makes A LOT of sense for him to be confused, and, not to mention, we know little to nothing about the backstory of how he ended up upon a darker trajectory in his journey. Whether or not it was believable, is again, totally subjective, as most of the people I've talked to actually found his character quite compelling.

Again, let's just shit on what people and critics like, because that's the cool thing to do.

Not everyone reads every novel, short story, comic book, and cereal box insert that has anything to do with Star Wars.

Did you even read what I said? Like, AT ALL? My point was precisely that it wasn't a good idea. It's a sh!t idea, because morality simply doesn't work that way.

The only reason Kylo Ren outshines Vader as a villain is because Vader couldn't be any worse as a villain. He's neck deep in a childish representation of a "good/bad" dichotomy and on top of that he's a wimp that can't walk to the bathroom without asking daddy Sidious first. Kylo also suffers from the second problem but at least he (rightfully so) makes a mockery of what the light and dark sides are.

lol Kylo Ren is not a Revan. In the expanded universe (which the new trilogy ignores) he's mirrors Han Solo's son who also turned to the dark side named Jacen. The only similarity to Revan is a stupid mask.

How does morality work then? Explain it.

Tell me of a good villain then, and explain why he is a good villain. Otherwise, again, let's just shit on what people like because it's the cool thing to do...

I don't know how you can say Kylo Ren has no depth. He's has more depth than Vader in the Original Trilogy. Darth Vader, while being a badass, is your typical archetype villain: stoic, menacing, represents evil. He didn't show any development until Return of the Jedi when Luke was trying to get him to come back to the light side.

Kylo Ren is SUPPOSED to be a "wimp". I don't know how people complain that Force Awakens is too much like a New Hope, but complain that Ren isn't as cool as Vader. Isn't it a GOOD thing that we have a different angle on a villain?

You're the one who's shitting on what people like because it's the cool thing to do here kid. I have stated precisely what I dislike and I haven't "taken a sh!t" on anything else in the entire Star Wars franchise.

"explain it"

If that's how far your understanding of the over two millennia of philosophy we've had goes, it's no wonder you think the ridiculous and whimsical switches from light side to dark side are a good idea. I'm not going to bother explaining anything else about this just like I wouldn't explain bremsstrahlung or molecular orbitals to a guy who doesn't know how sums work.

And as far as good villains go, both Darth Traya and Darth Nihilus are good villains. Reason enough for them to stomp any villain the movies (or BioWare) came up with is that they have purpose in their villainy, as opposed to the "moar power" mantra the aforementioned villains adhered to.

Perhaps for you. The prequels are stunning pieces of work. The people I've talked to that claim they are bad seem to not even see what is going on with them. Some of the most complex film making ever produced. The amount of care given to Palpatine and Anakin is something that these new ones won't ever reach. The people behind the Force Awakens don't have the knowledge or the balls to do what Lucas did. Most of it went over peoples heads. Every aspect of the prequels serves a purpose.

There's reason's for that. He's an newby, a sith padawan essentially. Also the latest thing to come out is his Lightsaber crystal is cracked, making it unstable, the hilt is designed to exhaust extra energy making it more like a broad sword. He rebelled against Luke early in his training, I personally think Snoke is the actual reason Luke is defeated, not Kylo Ren. Kylo just helped Snoke destroy Luke's academy (that part is purely my thoughts, they could be wrong, but I feel it might be a case, we won't know for sure until the new trilogy is complete)

This. It's why you surf the net for theories and expanded depth for characters after seeing the movie. It's part of the fun for me honestly.

sadly all of that is no longer canon since Disney bought the rights. The whole expanded universe is obsolete. No Star Wars novels, comics, or lore other than Episodes I-VII, The Clone Wars, and Rebels.

@mrbojangles25: Yep, that's why I said they could just rewrite him but Disney seemed so terrified of displeasing the old fans (they were more concerned with fan service than story) I doubt they'll want to piss off the newer generation of fans by messing with Revan.

Word!

That would make sense. Guess up until Rey, there would be no need to rectify that. Thing is though, surely with a broken crystal, Kylo would have to recitfy that in the following films. It would be like having a racing car on a grid, but with some cylinders down. It would cough and splutter but work, but not at the level required to win. Anyway Snoke seems intriguing to me. Looking forward to finding out where he came from in terms of using the force.

I can't believe my eyes.... I have NEVER talked to a person who held the prequel trilogy to such a high regard. "The amount of care given to Anakin"? I mean come on man, every time he was on screen it was cringe worthy. The prequels had some of the worst writing and acting I have seen in any movie, not just a Star Wars flick.

“I’m haunted by the kiss that you should never have given me.”

"Do you like sand? I hate sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere."

ANAKIN - Don't you see, we don't have to run away anymore. I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him, and together you and I can rule the galaxy.

PADME - I don't believe what I'm hearing... Obi-Wan was right. You've changed.

ANAKIN - I don't want to hear any more about Obi-Wan. The Jedi turned against me. Don't you turn against me.

PADME - I don't know you anymore. Anakin, you're breaking my heart.


The step up in writing in The Force Awakens was pretty obvious early on. Lucas can't write dialog and he sure as hell can't write a love story. I'm glad you enjoyed the prequels as much as you did. But I promise you that you are in the minority here.

All of this dialogue has purpose. The acting in Star Wars is not meant to overtake the other elements of the film. Lucas is a masterful director, an art which has been lost amongst glorified dramatic acting, which is a trend further glorified by the Oscars, entertainment shows, and magazines. When people hear the word "director" in this day and age, they think that this person watches the actors and decides whether or not such and such scene was a good take.

Lucas is a filmmaker which pushes the boundaries while retaining the core of what a film is--a picture. The moving picture should be able to tell the story without anything else. That is a good film. With the prequels, Lucas does this. Not only does he do it, but he also uses the musical score, sound effects, editing, stage, and color as characters within the films. You can watch the prequels with no sound or in a different language and things will still make sense because of his close attention to detail.

And Hayden was great as Anakin. Over the course of the trilogy Anakin is given the same speech cadence as Darth Vader. He speaks like Darth Vader. Simple motions become more Darth Vader. The complexity of his turn was missed by the majority. It is a process that starts with episode one, with not only anakin himself, but other characters he comes into contact with--both through script elements and whats visually presented. Qui Gons stature even mimics what Darth Vader might have been had he not been turned. Everything from the hair to his resilience regarding how things work relating to the force and other living beings. By episode 3, Hayden is Vader to a T in terms of dialect and visual stature.

That is only scratching the surface.

The prequels are brilliant.

@Heirren: you have got to be joking.

They're great characters, but the actors portraying them, and the director leading the actors, were terrible. Which is sad, because both Ewan McGregor and Natalie Portman are excellent actors; it takes a lot to make them look bad, either that or a terrible director.

I will always be thankful to Lucas for creating Star Wars, but that's as far as my gratitude goes; the less he has to do with Star Wars, the better the films are. Case in point: Episode V and Episode VII are the best of the seven installments, and he had little to do with the former, and nothing to do with the latter.

Now...with all that said....Star Wars has never really been about the acting. The movies are about an interesting universe, good vs evil and the wonderful grey area in between, cool aliens, and amazing special effects.

Kylo Ren reminds me of Zuko, from Avatar: The Last Airbender.

My mind is blown. I don't even know how to respond to this. I mean I have friends that like the prequels, some that don't, but I have NEVER heard anyone call them "brilliant." And you are the first to say Hayden Christensen was great at anything. I understand that you are passionate about George Lucas and you really love the Star Wars prequel trilogy. I think everyone has a movie series they enjoy to this level. I love the Back to the Future Trilogy. The first 2 are probably my favorite movies of all time. I'm also a huge Sylvester Stallone fan and love the Rocky series, Demolition Man, Over the Top, Rambo etc. But I am more than capable of pointing out the films faults and I don't give them any unwarranted praise. You seem to have HUGE fanboy goggles on when you watch the prequel trilogy. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the prequels. I saw all 3 at midnight premiers. I probably saw Episode One 15 times at the theaters. But I was in high school at the time. Now that I'm an adult with more mature taste and a much wider knowledge of movies, I can admit that Episode One is bad. If you take out the Darth Maul fight scenes and the pod race, Episode One is probably un-watchable. But as a movie fan I have no problem sitting down, turning myself back into 16 year old me and enjoy Star Wars Episode One from time to time. But every time that kid talks, Jar Jar is on screen, or Nute Gunray delivers a line I cringe.

Lucas gave us Star Wars. I will forever be thankful for that. But the man nearly ruined Star Wars and Indiana Jones. He is an OK director and a bad writer that hit gold with 2 movie franchises. It happens. Look at the Wachowski's and the Matrix. They struck gold and haven't been able to reproduce the magic again since. I would even say Abrams outdid Lucas at his own creation.

What makes Kylo Ren great is his potential. He's the first big screen Star Wars villain who has potential for character development. Vader was vader the whole time until his sudden change of mind at the end of episode VI. Palpatine was always Palpatine. Kylo Ren? He's young, brash, and imperfect. We'll see him grow and change over the course of the next few films. We'll see him make self defining decisions that back his future choices. He has far more potential for depth because of this.

Holy crap, I didn't expect to get so many replies...especially since this was just a repost of a blog post ;).

Obviously I fall into the liking Kylo camp and I can't really add much more than my first post. I apologize for not putting a spoiler tag in the title as I didn't really think it needed one, did anyone really not know Kylo was a villain? Also I don't post a lot so I don't know how to go back and edit it :/ (Nevermind, figured it out)

This is a pretty good comparison actually, I like it. Although as I said I don't think Kylo will end up getting redeemed. My personal theory is he will end up killing Snoke in the next movie and will end up being the main evil...of course that's based on absolutely nothing ;)

From what I understand the KOTOR stuff is inbetween actually being canon and all the scrapped EU stuff. The reason it is in more of a limbo is because all new Star Wars stuff going forward is supposed to be canon and Star Wars: The Old Republic is still ongoing so it's in a weird spot. Certain things from the old republic era are canon though, for instance Kylo's saber is based on an ancient design that was used during "The Great Scourge of Malachor" (the Scourge was also mentioned in the Clone Wars series). The planet of Malachor was first named in KOTOR 2. Basically don't totally write off the old republic stuff yet.

@shadow_cse: omfg you made my day.

If they hold on to TOR material, I will be so happy. There is so much to do with it and, imo, is a far richer setting than found in Episodes I-VII

@Pikminmaniac: completely agree: Ren is the epitome of what a Sith is; constantly at war with him- or herself and, as a result, at war with the world.

There's no sense in them tossing aside TOR or KOTOR stuff. It predates Episode 1. Scrapping post VI stuff makes sense, but just out and slashing the wealth of Star Wars EU that predates the films? It would reduce their profits, if only very marginally, and we know Disney hates any reduction of profit.

But you know what would be really cool? If Disney pressured Bioware (which I know is unlikely and seemingly impossible, but in my nerdy dreams it is feasible) to give us KOTOR III instead of wasting money on TOR. KOTOR > TOR by a million miles.

No. As has been pointed out ad nauseam he got his butt whipped by two people who had never used a light saber before. Also, vader had his helmet/armor as a life support breathing device and exoskeleton. Ren has his armor helmet because?

...to be more like Vader, who he clearly worshiped. Plus it's far cooler looking than without his helm, which has him looking like Severus Snape's son or something. That being said I stand by what I said earlier, Ren is the worst Star Wars villain ever.

@sayyy-gaa: Kylo was not only physically wounded but emotionally wounded from killing his father, he was OBVIOUSLY not at 100%. Also it's pretty obvious that he is basically playing with Finn for most of the fight, after Finn gets a lucky hit Kylo shuts him down right away. Rey is not only very strong with the force but is also very good at fighting with her staff which I'm sure gives her an edge with learning the lightsaber. Finally it seems Kylo wants to turn Rey to his side more than kill her at first. With all that in mind I don't really have an issue. As has already been pointed out he wears the mask to look more intimidating and to be more like his idle.