How did you do it? How do you feel about it?
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Obviously, I tend to feel like I'm right, but I acknowledge that other people have their own point of views that make sense to them.
you are one of the few. you should be proud. most people have their opinion/view but refuse to listen or consider the oposing argument.[QUOTE="viva_hate"]If you don't mind me asking, what about his work struck a chord with you? for me, it was how he pointed out that the market really isnt productive and that most of the things i value actually came from the public sector one way or the other,.I didn't really have one until I read some of Noam Chomsky's work. Now I'm an anarchist.
mattbbpl
[QUOTE="viva_hate"]If you don't mind me asking, what about his work struck a chord with you?I didn't really have one until I read some of Noam Chomsky's work. Now I'm an anarchist.
mattbbpl
It was very rebellious and reactionary at first, I sorta thought that any values that were ingrained in society were completely arbitrary and in need of constant question. The ironic part was that a lot of the values I assumed to be universal were really just socially ingrained in me. Then when i got to college I started to study different perspectives, mostly in sociology and philosophy, and my approach became a bit more methodical and objective.
I did it by following the beliefs I already had. For instance if what a politician does is something that looks out for people first I will admire it and who knows they may even get my vote.
that along with a bunch of my other beliefs is exactly how I formed my political opinions.
If you don't mind me asking, what about his work struck a chord with you?[QUOTE="mattbbpl"][QUOTE="viva_hate"]
I didn't really have one until I read some of Noam Chomsky's work. Now I'm an anarchist.
viva_hate
Edit: I got it now. Libertarian has a different meaning in the US than it has in Europe. The term is largely associated with a form capitalism in the US.
The internets, my very liberal friends, my very conservative friends, family, and bunch of random books and articles.
So I went from a moderate liberal to a Libertarian with non-interventionist leanings toa libertarian with some neoconservative ideas and I'm now a libertarian with moderate views on foreign policy. My views on the economy stayed the same when I was a libertarian but my views on social security, medicare, and medicaid changed from support to opposition.
It was a long process. When I was a young child, I was a socialist without even knowing the word meant. As I entered into my teens, I gradually became a hardcore neo-conservative. It probably was the upbringing. Had a bit of an Ayn Rand phase towards the end of high school without ever touching her book, or knowing who she was. As it stands now, I am a pragmatic libertarian. Not at all the Randian sort. I find the free market to be productive, and liberty in general to be beneficial for individuals and society as a whole.
I would say that college is the WORST place to learn different perspectives. Unless your school somehow dodged the PC police for the past 40 years or so, I would argue it's less conducive to discussion and debate than society in general. A couple of guys + a few beers= best place to hash out serious debate. I don't know if you're still in college, but if you are (or anyone else that is that thinks colleges are an open place to freely discuss ideas), in your next class where's it's appropriate, say you believe that it's better if women were solely housewives after marriage and shouldn't be in the workplace. Be prepared for some rather colorful language headed your way. (And I'm in no way responsible if you are forced to go to some gender sensitivity course as a result). Now, is that statement truly that bad? No, not even close. You didn't advocate for anyone's death or enslavement. You didn't advocate the abuse of anyone or outright torture. You just merely stated it would be better (which also suggests that women working isn't even bad...just that it's BETTER if they didn't). If university campuses were full of people truly open to fair debate, what was said a legitimate position. But I'm pretty sure you won't be getting honest debate in return. I think the only way to get an honest perspective on things is to either a) live for many years with an open mind and obtain wisdom, or b) go to a country that's very different than your own. Once there (and I'm doing this now) and you've lived there for a while, you begin to see what makes their society work well/poorly and it really puts into perspective your own country. (PS) I singled out your post since you mentioned college, but also because you didn't state any specific belief/view. I didn't want to come across as attacking your ideas since I don't even know what they are.It was very rebellious and reactionary at first, I sorta thought that any values that were ingrained in society were completely arbitrary and in need of constant question. The ironic part was that a lot of the values I assumed to be universal were really just socially ingrained in me. Then when i got to college I started to study different perspectives, mostly in sociology and philosophy, and my approach became a bit more methodical and objective.
theone86
I just formed it through a lot of reading. Milton Friedman, John Maynard Keynes, Ayn Rand, Karl Marx; I like to understand both sides of the spectrum. I get involved in political debates on this board but in reality I'm just an observer of politics.
Right now I'm trying to get in to Adam Smith and Noam Chomsky.
[QUOTE="theone86"]I would say that college is the WORST place to learn different perspectives. Unless your school somehow dodged the PC police for the past 40 years or so, I would argue it's less conducive to discussion and debate than society in general. A couple of guys + a few beers= best place to hash out serious debate. I don't know if you're still in college, but if you are (or anyone else that is that thinks colleges are an open place to freely discuss ideas), in your next class where's it's appropriate, say you believe that it's better if women were solely housewives after marriage and shouldn't be in the workplace. Be prepared for some rather colorful language headed your way. (And I'm in no way responsible if you are forced to go to some gender sensitivity course as a result). Now, is that statement truly that bad? No, not even close. You didn't advocate for anyone's death or enslavement. You didn't advocate the abuse of anyone or outright torture. You just merely stated it would be better (which also suggests that women working isn't even bad...just that it's BETTER if they didn't). If university campuses were full of people truly open to fair debate, what was said a legitimate position. But I'm pretty sure you won't be getting honest debate in return. I think the only way to get an honest perspective on things is to either a) live for many years with an open mind and obtain wisdom, or b) go to a country that's very different than your own. Once there (and I'm doing this now) and you've lived there for a while, you begin to see what makes their society work well/poorly and it really puts into perspective your own country. (PS) I singled out your post since you mentioned college, but also because you didn't state any specific belief/view. I didn't want to come across as attacking your ideas since I don't even know what they are.It was very rebellious and reactionary at first, I sorta thought that any values that were ingrained in society were completely arbitrary and in need of constant question. The ironic part was that a lot of the values I assumed to be universal were really just socially ingrained in me. Then when i got to college I started to study different perspectives, mostly in sociology and philosophy, and my approach became a bit more methodical and objective.
LongZhiZi
You'll forgive me if I don't see your point of view as particularly open-minded or objective. Simply by meeting different people, getting a general sense of strengths and weaknesses, and seeing what they can do best I can tell you that there is nothing out there that says women are better suited to stay in the kitchen, besides a hegemonic view of the world which college has, in part, taught me to be wary of and to argue effectively against, thank you Foucault. If I had to generalize the abilities of one sex, in fact, based solely on my experiences I'd say men are better suited to take care of duties at home than women are better suited for professional vocation. Mind you, I don't think that's due to anything inherent in either sex, just a casual observation. At any rate, the point is not to learn perspectives, the point is to understand perspectives, and just because a perspective is understood does not mean it must be advocated as legitimate, on the contrary it could very well be deomonized. We demonize Hitler we demonize Gacy, we demonize Nixon (we'll say just for the whole Watergate thing for now to avoid political debate).They all had perspectives, we can seek to understand their perspectives, but that doesn't mean we ahve to stop demonizing those perspectives. That process is part of something called production of truth, truth is neither completely solid and knowable nor ungraspable, it is a commodity that is produced and controlled by different systems within our society, pedagogy being one of them, thank you Foucault again. In my experience college is completely open for debate, you can say anything you want to in a class short of slurring other students, but you can't expect to have your opinion universally accepted or even respected no matter what the content, and I think you'll find this holds true for the real world as well.
At any rate, I found college and continue to find it a most enlightening experience. Agree or disagree with hegemony, philosophy and sociology can teach you to understand it, same with different religions. That's much of the point of college, is to see different perspectives and learn to look at them outside of your own perception, that's not losing objectivity, that helps in gaining it.
Also, if the discourse supports a certain point of view that doesn't mean it's not objective, it simply means that in the experince of those leading the discourse the most objective conclusion is the one they are vocalizing. This could mean that discourse is objectively right, it could mean nothing, it could mean that the truth is intangible and that the discourse is simply an attempt to grasp or define it, it could simply mean that the production of truth is simply supporting this line of reasoning currently, but whatever the truth is college only helps to further your understanding of it.
By having an IQ above 70. Sorry to those who put their blind faith into any single party's ideology, or even worse, their demagogues/leaders.
My beleif that nature and everything in the universe depends on balance, and i hate the country i live in.
Forming a political opinion seems a no-brainer to me- you either value Humans working together (left) or you think progress can only be derived through ruthless competition (right), which divides and isolates.
[QUOTE="theone86"]I would say that college is the WORST place to learn different perspectives. Unless your school somehow dodged the PC police for the past 40 years or so, I would argue it's less conducive to discussion and debate than society in general. A couple of guys + a few beers= best place to hash out serious debate. I don't know if you're still in college, but if you are (or anyone else that is that thinks colleges are an open place to freely discuss ideas), in your next class where's it's appropriate, say you believe that it's better if women were solely housewives after marriage and shouldn't be in the workplace. Be prepared for some rather colorful language headed your way. (And I'm in no way responsible if you are forced to go to some gender sensitivity course as a result). Now, is that statement truly that bad? No, not even close. You didn't advocate for anyone's death or enslavement. You didn't advocate the abuse of anyone or outright torture. You just merely stated it would be better (which also suggests that women working isn't even bad...just that it's BETTER if they didn't). If university campuses were full of people truly open to fair debate, what was said a legitimate position. But I'm pretty sure you won't be getting honest debate in return. I think the only way to get an honest perspective on things is to either a) live for many years with an open mind and obtain wisdom, or b) go to a country that's very different than your own. Once there (and I'm doing this now) and you've lived there for a while, you begin to see what makes their society work well/poorly and it really puts into perspective your own country. (PS) I singled out your post since you mentioned college, but also because you didn't state any specific belief/view. I didn't want to come across as attacking your ideas since I don't even know what they are. College is better than drunken people. Cognitive ability is important when discussing viewpoints. Ive found no college bias. it just so happens every time a conservative view point was brought up it was easily dismissed by logic. Theres a reason the right is anti-intellectual.It was very rebellious and reactionary at first, I sorta thought that any values that were ingrained in society were completely arbitrary and in need of constant question. The ironic part was that a lot of the values I assumed to be universal were really just socially ingrained in me. Then when i got to college I started to study different perspectives, mostly in sociology and philosophy, and my approach became a bit more methodical and objective.
LongZhiZi
I think you misunderstood my point. My point wasn't that I'm advocating in this thread that the world would be better if women were housewives. My point was that you can't say that at a college campus and get a fair an honest debate. You would be attacked verbally for uttering such a thing, despite the fact that the opinion offered isn't saying, "hey, let's go wipe out race X." While I'd be happy to debate the merits of women working in a separate thread, that's not the purpose of this thread. Furthermore, I get the feeling that your post highlights exactly what I was getting at- you said I wasn't open-minded or objective. I stated a reasonable opinion- saying that I'm not open-minded is an unrelated issue to the matter at hand. i could be right about women staying at home and closed-minded at the same time. Likewise, I could be a very open minded person but be wrong about the matter. To call me closed-minded simply because I stated a different opinion than yours comes off as closed-minded....especially because I wasn't trying to debate that issue at all and used it merely as an example.You'll forgive me if I don't see your point of view as particularly open-minded or objective. Simply by meeting different people, getting a general sense of strengths and weaknesses, and seeing what they can do best I can tell you that there is nothing out there that says women are better suited to stay in the kitchen, besides a hegemonic view of the world which college has, in part, taught me to be wary of and to argue effectively against, thank you Foucault. If I had to generalize the abilities of one sex, in fact, based solely on my experiences I'd say men are better suited to take care of duties at home than women are better suited for professional vocation. Mind you, I don't think that's due to anything inherent in either sex, just a casual observation. At any rate, the point is not to learn perspectives, the point is to understand perspectives, and just because a perspective is understood does not mean it must be advocated as legitimate, on the contrary it could very well be deomonized. We demonize Hitler we demonize Gacy, we demonize Nixon (we'll say just for the whole Watergate thing for now to avoid political debate).They all had perspectives, we can seek to understand their perspectives, but that doesn't mean we ahve to stop demonizing those perspectives. That process is part of something called production of truth, truth is neither completely solid and knowable nor ungraspable, it is a commodity that is produced and controlled by different systems within our society, pedagogy being one of them, thank you Foucault again. In my experience college is completely open for debate, you can say anything you want to in a class short of slurring other students, but you can't expect to have your opinion universally accepted or even respected no matter what the content, and I think you'll find this holds true for the real world as well.
At any rate, I found college and continue to find it a most enlightening experience. Agree or disagree with hegemony, philosophy and sociology can teach you to understand it, same with different religions. That's much of the point of college, is to see different perspectives and learn to look at them outside of your own perception, that's not losing objectivity, that helps in gaining it.
Also, if the discourse supports a certain point of view that doesn't mean it's not objective, it simply means that in the experince of those leading the discourse the most objective conclusion is the one they are vocalizing. This could mean that discourse is objectively right, it could mean nothing, it could mean that the truth is intangible and that the discourse is simply an attempt to grasp or define it, it could simply mean that the production of truth is simply supporting this line of reasoning currently, but whatever the truth is college only helps to further your understanding of it.
theone86
[QUOTE="LongZhiZi"][QUOTE="theone86"]I would say that college is the WORST place to learn different perspectives. Unless your school somehow dodged the PC police for the past 40 years or so, I would argue it's less conducive to discussion and debate than society in general. A couple of guys + a few beers= best place to hash out serious debate. I don't know if you're still in college, but if you are (or anyone else that is that thinks colleges are an open place to freely discuss ideas), in your next class where's it's appropriate, say you believe that it's better if women were solely housewives after marriage and shouldn't be in the workplace. Be prepared for some rather colorful language headed your way. (And I'm in no way responsible if you are forced to go to some gender sensitivity course as a result). Now, is that statement truly that bad? No, not even close. You didn't advocate for anyone's death or enslavement. You didn't advocate the abuse of anyone or outright torture. You just merely stated it would be better (which also suggests that women working isn't even bad...just that it's BETTER if they didn't). If university campuses were full of people truly open to fair debate, what was said a legitimate position. But I'm pretty sure you won't be getting honest debate in return. I think the only way to get an honest perspective on things is to either a) live for many years with an open mind and obtain wisdom, or b) go to a country that's very different than your own. Once there (and I'm doing this now) and you've lived there for a while, you begin to see what makes their society work well/poorly and it really puts into perspective your own country. (PS) I singled out your post since you mentioned college, but also because you didn't state any specific belief/view. I didn't want to come across as attacking your ideas since I don't even know what they are. College is better than drunken people. Cognitive ability is important when discussing viewpoints. Ive found no college bias. it just so happens every time a conservative view point was brought up it was easily dismissed by logic. Theres a reason the right is anti-intellectual. Because you agree with the typical college opinion, there's no bias? Your post says what I want to say far better than I ever could.It was very rebellious and reactionary at first, I sorta thought that any values that were ingrained in society were completely arbitrary and in need of constant question. The ironic part was that a lot of the values I assumed to be universal were really just socially ingrained in me. Then when i got to college I started to study different perspectives, mostly in sociology and philosophy, and my approach became a bit more methodical and objective.
Atheists_Pwn
[QUOTE="theone86"]I think you misunderstood my point. My point wasn't that I'm advocating in this thread that the world would be better if women were housewives. My point was that you can't say that at a college campus and get a fair an honest debate. You would be attacked verbally for uttering such a thing, despite the fact that the opinion offered isn't saying, "hey, let's go wipe out race X." While I'd be happy to debate the merits of women working in a separate thread, that's not the purpose of this thread. Furthermore, I get the feeling that your post highlights exactly what I was getting at- you said I wasn't open-minded or objective. I stated a reasonable opinion- saying that I'm not open-minded is an unrelated issue to the matter at hand. i could be right about women staying at home and closed-minded at the same time. Likewise, I could be a very open minded person but be wrong about the matter. To call me closed-minded simply because I stated a different opinion than yours comes off as closed-minded....especially because I wasn't trying to debate that issue at all and used it merely as an example.You'll forgive me if I don't see your point of view as particularly open-minded or objective. Simply by meeting different people, getting a general sense of strengths and weaknesses, and seeing what they can do best I can tell you that there is nothing out there that says women are better suited to stay in the kitchen, besides a hegemonic view of the world which college has, in part, taught me to be wary of and to argue effectively against, thank you Foucault. If I had to generalize the abilities of one sex, in fact, based solely on my experiences I'd say men are better suited to take care of duties at home than women are better suited for professional vocation. Mind you, I don't think that's due to anything inherent in either sex, just a casual observation. At any rate, the point is not to learn perspectives, the point is to understand perspectives, and just because a perspective is understood does not mean it must be advocated as legitimate, on the contrary it could very well be deomonized. We demonize Hitler we demonize Gacy, we demonize Nixon (we'll say just for the whole Watergate thing for now to avoid political debate).They all had perspectives, we can seek to understand their perspectives, but that doesn't mean we ahve to stop demonizing those perspectives. That process is part of something called production of truth, truth is neither completely solid and knowable nor ungraspable, it is a commodity that is produced and controlled by different systems within our society, pedagogy being one of them, thank you Foucault again. In my experience college is completely open for debate, you can say anything you want to in a class short of slurring other students, but you can't expect to have your opinion universally accepted or even respected no matter what the content, and I think you'll find this holds true for the real world as well.
At any rate, I found college and continue to find it a most enlightening experience. Agree or disagree with hegemony, philosophy and sociology can teach you to understand it, same with different religions. That's much of the point of college, is to see different perspectives and learn to look at them outside of your own perception, that's not losing objectivity, that helps in gaining it.
Also, if the discourse supports a certain point of view that doesn't mean it's not objective, it simply means that in the experince of those leading the discourse the most objective conclusion is the one they are vocalizing. This could mean that discourse is objectively right, it could mean nothing, it could mean that the truth is intangible and that the discourse is simply an attempt to grasp or define it, it could simply mean that the production of truth is simply supporting this line of reasoning currently, but whatever the truth is college only helps to further your understanding of it.
LongZhiZi
First off, that's not a reasonable opinion, a reasonable opinion is formulated based on sound logic and I defy you to find any sound logic that states that women are inherently better suited to be working in the home than they are to be pursuing a career. Second, I think it's you who are misunderstanding the point, college is not about the acceptance of your opinion, it's about learning how to analyze the world in the most objective manner and think critically. Like I said before, there are a few possibilities as to why an opinion would not be very accepted within a college setting, one of those being that said view is objectively wrong. At any rate, it's not the purpose of college to gain acceptance for any one viewpoint. I didn't call you close-minded because you had a different opinion than me, I called you close-minded because your view on the purpose of college seemed to be extremely narrow, you expected near universal validation of your views and when you didn't receive that you automatically make the assertation that college is completely flawed and a horrible place to learn. That is narrow-minded.
[QUOTE="Atheists_Pwn"] Ive found no college bias. it just so happens every time a conservative view point was brought up it was easily dismissed by logic. markop2003That is bias, you should aim to understand each others views and use such views to improve your own. You shouldn't dismiss any beliefs because you don't agree with them.
A. Bias is such an overused word, if these points really were defeated by logic than there is no bias there, objective investigation simply led them to a conclusion that refutes a conservative viewpoint. Having an opinion leaning one way or another is not bias, arriving at that opinion with more conjecture than fact simply because one already supports it is bias.
B. Understanding viewpoints does not mean concurring with them, you can understand the position of the opposite side and still disagree completely with it. The benefit to understanding is that you understand what motivates the opposite side, so if you know what their concerns are you can try to address those concerns while still maintaining your original position.
both left and right fail hard
Right: conserivism=fail
fascism=fail
nazism= fail
left:
soicalism=fail
liberalism=fail
[QUOTE="Atheists_Pwn"] Ive found no college bias. it just so happens every time a conservative view point was brought up it was easily dismissed by logic. markop2003That is bias, you should aim to understand each others views and use such views to improve your own. You shouldn't dismiss any beliefs because you don't agree with them.So logical reasoning is now liberal bias? Nice.
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