Do you beleive in god OT ?

@EPICCOMMANDER: But then the discussion would be; what would God consider faith? Would he only welcome people who loved him or would he consider the "let's go to church just in case God is real and I don't want to go to hell" crowd worthy of going in? Also, would you be comfortable with follow a God who supposedly is our father but had no problem murdering almost all of his children in a flood because he was disappointed at us? A father who would condemn us to eternal damnation because we didn't do things exactly the way he wanted? Who would give up on you because you didn't worship him? Is that really what a parent demands of their children? You would look past all that in order to spend eternity with him?

I don't want to spend eternity with someone who will take me in not based on my actions but based on how much I please him. If hell is real, at least the devil doesn't discriminate...

Also, I'm not an atheist...I'm not saying a god doesn't exist, or several gods...I just don't want to cater to any of them. If any of them accepts me it'll be for what I did for the world and who/what lives here.

No because i don't believe that something can be absolute, i believe in action/reaction. I also believe that religious people are either scared of hell (being punished in the afterlife), want to believe in something bigger than them, or just want to play it safe in case there is a "god".

I guess in the same sense he exists like Santa and the Easter Bunny; they're all man made constructs.

As for the bolded, who is saying randomness created everything we know? I certainly don't know any scientists that believe this.

I agree.

I'd consider myself a realist, alright? But in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist... I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everbody's nobody... I think the honorable thing for our species to do is to deny our programming. Stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction - one last midnight, brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.

@Aljosa23: I'm always curious, how can someone who considers their own race as unworthy/better off extinct/disgusting/whatever continue living? And more than that, continue to be social? Would you be kind enough to clarify?

science is mostly theories, they can't even prove evolution. I believe that animals and plants have adapted and evolved over time, yes. But who set all these things in motion? In order to be created you have to have a creator; God. If anything science makes the case that God is real because if the universe is constantly in motion, then something had to set it in motion. A ball doesn't just start rolling on its own, someone has to give it a push.

A scientific theory is different from the regular use of the word of theory

I don't know m8, I was just quoting Rush Cohle from True Detective lol.

@Aljosa23: lol shit, it's 4am and I'm half asleep working at the computer. You could probably quote my favourite movie and I wouldn't see it. Carry on, nothing to see here =P

That was the high point, the best episode was the first. It didn't live up to its promise.

No, it did not.

I only follow the religion of the Holy Fonz:

@LittleMac19: That's great, and if that ever stops working for you....just punch it.

Nope.

Well you certainly didn't understand my post.....

@ps4hasnogames: because we don't understand something don't just throw a creator in to explain it. All that does is pose a harder question of "what created the creator" that's pretty much a god of the gaps argument.

No, because lack of evidence.

@LittleMac19 said:

I only follow the religion of the Holy Fonz:

But he's not Immortal

I don't think that there would be so many people suffering on this planet if there really was a God. The existence of human agony and inevitable death to me kind of shows that there is no God.

The existence of extreme pain and agony and an eventual death to me kind of proves that God does not exist.

Of course I'm assuming here that God would want to eradicate extreme human pain and suffering if he could do that but there is also the possibility that God does not want to eradicate human suffering which in my opinion would make him malevolent but then again a God doesn't necessarily have to be good. A God could also be malevolent.

@pariah3: Thank you for the mental image of a huge God looking down on Earth like it's a crystal ball, rubbing his/her hands and cackling "Dance, my puppets, dance!!". It's all your fault...or all mine, still trying to decide.

It was Epicurus who once said:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then where does evil come from?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/819...-not-able-then

While I think that makes a good point on the impossibility of square triangles, but it really is all dependent on our assumptions.

Of course, the usual main assumption is that any god(s) exist yet assumptions of what some god(s) must be like is also quite a problem.

Being loving is not a necessary inclusion in the definition of a god. And neither is not being malevolent. Of course I can conceive of a God who is both malevolent and non-loving.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080812073645AAZVPgI

@pariah3: My comment was merely meant as a small joke, but yes, I agree with you. As a child growing up in a deeply Christian home I often tried to question my mother on those same subjects (although a little less eloquently =p) and was always met with your standard "It is not our place to question. Be quiet and pray." and she would not be amused when I'd ask her who's place was it to question.

Yes I believe in God. I'm old and have lived through a lot of good times and bad. And if I hadn't truly believed that God was with me and had his hand on my shoulder every step of the way, I probably would have offed myself a long time ago.Yes he's real. Yes I believe.

So what gave God a push?

@Detroit222: While not a believer myself, I want to say "Good for you!" (not in a sarcastic way, either). I have absolutely no problem with people who use their faith as strength to continue living and maybe improve somebody else's life along the way. We all need something that keeps us going. For me it's my family, for you it's God (and probably your family too); why would anyone have a problem with it? =)

"when your lord said to the angels: 'I am placing on the earth a caliph (viceroy) , ' they replied: 'will you put there who corrupts and sheds blood, when we exalt your praises and sanctify you? ' he said: 'I know what you do not know."

The cause of all the suffering on earth is man. Stop blaming God. If a kid is dying of starvation in Africa it's not God's fault it's his viceroy's fault so instead of blaming him, blame yourselves for not doing your job. And give that whole "we westerns earned it let the rest rot" a break.

Yes, I believe in God. I was raised Catholic and never regret being brought up in faith.

(I wish my bro was on these boards right now, I think he would shed some interesting light on the subject since he's going for his PhD in theology).

false. you're alive. you've already won

^^^^Oh, we got our very own PhD/ordained something something on OT. Where are you dude, we need you. *lights up the God-signal*

Not really, but I have an open mind if new, actually any, evidence surfaces.

@Master_Live: You called?

(Not trying to insult anyone; I happen to think the image is awesome XD)

Yes, I believe in God, and I believe that Jesus existed on this Earth and had a divine purpose. I don't have a lot of respect for the way modern churches operate, nor do I believe the Bible is an accurate document, word for word.

My core belief in God is bolstered by personal experiences more so than any convincing empirical evidence. I would say that people tend to look at God the wrong way when asking questions. If there is in fact a being which has such power that it created everything as we know it, I doubt we could ever hope to understand it on such a level as to question its benevolence. We would, as an above poster argued, be like ants or mindless drones by comparison.

I'll tackle this one...

Since reality is subjective to each individual's perception of reality, if God exists in someone's reality, God exists in that reality. Since we cannot prove or disprove God's existence, whether or not God exists is up to each individual's subjective perception of reality.

It's existential mumbo-jumbo, basically, and it's the reason I'm agnostic rather than atheist: intellectual honesty.

You misunderstand, the life after death rationale is merely an application of the wager itself.

Pascal's argument is that you have infinite to gain, and only finite to chance (to bet) on the existence of God. Therefore, it would be utter foolishness to not bet on the existence of God.

infinite is illogical

as a practical matter, wouldn't infinite existence get a little tired after a few hundred-quadrillion lifetimes?

@comp_atkins: Well, if you go by Christian belief, eternity is not a choice; where you spend it is.

Forgive me but this way of thinking reminds me of that stripper thread, Sure she earns a lot of money but what about her dignity? If the reason for believing in God is mere profit then I rather not believe in him at all.

Nope

@alim298: Thank you. Glad someone agrees with me. I think that "faith" through fear is not faith at all, just people covering all angles.

@korvus: I think pretty much everyone here can agree that Pascal's Wager is basically useless. If a God that saves us from damnation based on faith does exist, he'd hardly be fooled by the fact that one goes to church every Sunday and occasionally thumbs through the Bible just to cover their own ass.

@Assassin_87: I think you'd be surprised how many people believe (no pun intended) that it'll work. I mean, Pascal himself said that you should pretend to believe and mimic believers until you finally become a believer yourself. If it was good enough for Mr. Pascal...hehe

@alim298: Oh boy. So I started this conversation over a statement that Korvus made that said he's never thought about the existence of God, and I brought up the Wager to try to convince him to at least think about it. I don't know why the topic of faith was integrated into this discussion, and you misunderstand me if you think I want to actually talk about faith here.

Have you even read the argument? Rational reasoning isn't part of your decision because you are forced to wager to begin with, and either choice is irrational because God cannot be proved or disproved. Try actually reading it and come back.

I know you're probably tired of replying to me, and if so I apologise, but I have to chime in again. I think that the "You are forced to wager" part of the argument is one of the many ways the argument falls apart. You are NOT forced to wager...you might have no way of escaping the consequences but you're not forced to choose.

If you come to me and say "I'm flipping this coin; if you guess correctly nothing will happen, otherwise I'll punch you in the face". If I don't wager I will lose by default (assuming I'd have to let you punch me for some reason...bear with me with the stupid example =P), but I'm still not forced to; I'll just have to deal with the consequences of my (in)action.

Theologians have nothing interesting to say, they do not use scientific method its not a Science.

It would be like asking an Specialist in Acupuncture to shed some light on Modern Medicine issues.

I love C.S. Lewis and his thoughts on Christianity and God. I should make mention that C.S. Lewis was an atheist turned Christian and these excerpts are from his book 'Mere Christianity':

“If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.”

― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

“A Christian society is not going to arrive until most of us really want it: and we are not going to want it until we become fully Christian. I may repeat "Do as you would be done by" till I am black in the fact, but I cannot really carry it out till I love my neighbour as myself: and I cannot learn to love my neighbour as myself till I learn to love God: and I cannot learn to love God except by learning to obey Him. And so, as I warned you, we are driven on to something more inward - driven on from social matters to religious matters.”

― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

“The Christian is in a different position from other people who are trying to be good. They hope, by being good, to please God if there is one; or — if they think there is not — at least they hope to deserve approval from good men. But the Christian thinks any good he does comes from the Christ-life inside him. He does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us; just as the roof of a greenhouse does not attract the sun because it is bright, but becomes bright because the sun shines on it.”

― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

Yes, because you've heard every Theologian in the world talk and can make that assessment. Seems legit.

@jasean79: theology does not use scientific method, so why should anyone care about theologians say when they challenge evolution etc.

Nope.