Can someone enlighten me on how AZ's law is horrible?

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Squall18

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#1 Squall18
Member since 2004 • 3756 Posts

I'm NOT a big politician, and neither am I choosing sides. I just need more info. since this debate is heating up.

From MY stand point, the USA has an immigration problem w/ illegals, so how is this such a horrible law?? People came in illegally....I understand it "seems" wrong to take these people out. However, they have TONS of opportunities to do the legal registration system. Whats so hard about that?

There's consequences for actions I guess.. Can ya'll please inform me more... Maybe I mis-interpreted the new law.... thanks in advance

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Snipes_2

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#2 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

Prepare for flammage. I don't see it as Horrible either.

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Squall18

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#3 Squall18
Member since 2004 • 3756 Posts

Prepare for flammage. I don't see it as Horrible either.

Snipes_2

Haha, I started my day with Sunny D, so I'm fine :)

I'm not taking sides here, and I just don't know much about politics. But I recently got into this law, and I don't understand why people go nuts over this. Maybe I'm missing something tho

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Lethargika

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#4 Lethargika
Member since 2009 • 1666 Posts

I find the law is perfectly legit. Arizona was experiencing some pretty rediculous problems, the had to lock it down...or else. The law is the law.

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majoras_wrath

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#5 majoras_wrath
Member since 2005 • 6062 Posts
First off: It's incredibly difficult to become a citizen. Which admittedly isn't such a bad thing...most of the time. Second off: As for the law in its previous form, it created no basis of control for the officers. The only requirement for an officer to stop someone was "legal contact" something that is not at all defined in the Arizona Code of Law. Meaning, an officer could very well stop anyone who looked hispanic and detain them. Not ok. The amended law, however, I completely agree with. It explicitly states the requirements for detainment now.
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njean777

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#6 njean777
Member since 2007 • 3807 Posts

its not imo, i dont know why people have a problem with it. If you are in the state illegally then you are breaking the law. Nothing more to say.

The real problem is we are not fixing our immigration system which needs to have a major revamp imo.

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markop2003

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#7 markop2003
Member since 2005 • 29917 Posts
Seems fine to me too but a lot of Americans seem to pull out the racist card far too readily.
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Agent-Zero

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#8 Agent-Zero
Member since 2009 • 6198 Posts
It's unfair to Hispanics(regardless if they are citizens or not); not carrying papers is not illegal there, and police can detain anyone they suspect is an illegal alien even if they were born here but just doesn't have their liscense on them and they look Mexican.
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scorch-62

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#9 scorch-62
Member since 2006 • 29763 Posts
[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]First off: It's incredibly difficult to become a citizen. Which admittedly isn't such a bad thing...most of the time. Second off: As for the law in its previous form, it created no basis of control for the officers. The only requirement for an officer to stop someone was "legal contact" something that is not at all defined in the Arizona Code of Law. Meaning, an officer could very well stop anyone who looked hispanic and detain them. Not ok. The amended law, however, I completely agree with. It explicitly states the requirements for detainment now.

This is what I found wrong with it, however, I do not know the details of the amended version.
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Wings_008

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#10 Wings_008
Member since 2008 • 3813 Posts

to be honest i think it's just the start soon maybe Texas will adopt a similar law, and i don't have a problem with it btw

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scorch-62

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#11 scorch-62
Member since 2006 • 29763 Posts
Seems fine to me too but a lot of Americans seem to pull out the racist card far too readily.markop2003
The problem with it before was that ALL Hispanics (legal or not) were capable of being victims. Apparently that changed, though.
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Agent-Zero

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#12 Agent-Zero
Member since 2009 • 6198 Posts
[QUOTE="markop2003"]Seems fine to me too but a lot of Americans seem to pull out the racist card far too readily.scorch-62
The problem with it before was that ALL Hispanics (legal or not) were capable of being victims. Apparently that changed, though.

But how is an officer going to tell the difference between illegal and legal. What if they are just walking down the street, and don't have their license with them?
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JML897

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#13 JML897
Member since 2004 • 33134 Posts

However, they have TONS of opportunities to do the legal registration system. Whats so hard about that?

Squall18

Well, that usually takes ages. There are a lot of desperate families in Mexico who are struggling to survive, and they have a better chance to do it by coming into the states as quickly as possible (which means illegally for many). Not all illegal immigrants are drug smugglers; there are many who are pretty honest but desperate people.

That said...I usually side with the left, but I don't really agree with them on the Arizona law unless I'm missing something. It would be one thing if the police could just go up to anyone on the street and make sure they have an ID on them. I would be 100% against a law that allowed that. But from my understanding, that's not what the law states.

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majoras_wrath

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#14 majoras_wrath
Member since 2005 • 6062 Posts

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]First off: It's incredibly difficult to become a citizen. Which admittedly isn't such a bad thing...most of the time. Second off: As for the law in its previous form, it created no basis of control for the officers. The only requirement for an officer to stop someone was "legal contact" something that is not at all defined in the Arizona Code of Law. Meaning, an officer could very well stop anyone who looked hispanic and detain them. Not ok. The amended law, however, I completely agree with. It explicitly states the requirements for detainment now.scorch-62
This is what I found wrong with it, however, I do not know the details of the amended version.

Here's the law with the green text representing changes.

Lawful contact is removed, and it explicitly states that no racial profiling can take place, creating a basis for punishing officers who violate it. Makes sense now.

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z4twenny

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#15 z4twenny
Member since 2006 • 4898 Posts

[QUOTE="Squall18"]

However, they have TONS of opportunities to do the legal registration system. Whats so hard about that?

JML897

Well, that usually takes ages. There are a lot of desperate families in Mexico who are struggling to survive, and they have a better chance to do it by coming into the states as quickly as possible (which means illegally for many). Not all illegal immigrants are drug smugglers; there are many who are pretty honest but desperate people.

That said...I usually side with the left, but I don't really agree with them on the Arizona law unless I'm missing something. It would be one thing if the police could just go up to anyone on the street and make sure they have an ID on them. I would be 100% against a law that allowed that. But from my understanding, that's not what the law states.

i'm desperate to leave the US for holland b/c i don't like the laws and living conditions here, so is that ok for me go ahead and move to holland illegally?

i don't have a problem with the law. in fact i didn't have a problem with the racial profiling, no i don't want the cops to racially profile people but guess what i don't want more? illegal immigrants

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HerrJosefK

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#16 HerrJosefK
Member since 2009 • 444 Posts

Economically, legal immigration has had no known aggregate negative effects on the U.S. economy (the impact varies depending on country). This assumption is backed up by an astonishing amount of research throughout the past century. This is an extremely important point to remember....

Between 1990-2000, had illegal immigration not occurred, there would have been a labor shortage in unskilled labor (the numbers provided by the U.S. department of labor and statistics don't lie like the popular media does). Furthermore, almost all illegal immigrants are entering the unskilled (or sometimes semi-skilled) labor market. Which means that they are competing with only a select few native U.S. citizens anyway (who have been provided the means to acquire the skills necessary to enter the skilled labor force). Likewise, even when illegal, it could be argued (but isn't proven) that the impact on factors of production (such as the lowering of the wage rate) substantially outweighs the loss of tax revenue due to untaxed income and increased expenditures in the social welfare system. That is to say that there may actually be a net gain from illegal immigration, and if there isn't, it is more likely to be a breakeven than a net loss (and if it were a net loss, that loss would be minimal). Likewise, between 2008-2009 we have experienced a decrease in illegal immigration on average (year over year), to the tune of about 150,000 people (meager compared to the 14 million illegal immigrants currently residing in the U.S., but even so...) It has been proven relatively soundly that legal immigration in the U.S. typically affects the wage rate (but not the labor force participate rate) of unskilled workers almost exclusively (and this depends on immigration policy from country to country - in Canada immigration largely impacts the wage rate of skilled labor). Given the lack of statistical data (because they're undocumented), no conclusions can be drawn about the impact of illegal immigration, at least not quantitatively. We can do qualitative sociology based research though, and this research tends to support the assumption that illegal immigrants are here for the same reason as legal immigrants - unskilled labor. Thus, they impact the labor force (and the economy) in much the same way as legal immigrants, the only difference being the nominal loss of tax revenues and the nominal increase in tax expenditures.

This issue is largely (and some might say exclusively) political. Politics often includes fabrications, exaggerations, and constituent pandering. Economics does not. The hard science says that illegal immigration should be of no concern, especially to a nation like the U.S. (in contrast, illegal immigration of unskilled labor in Japan, if it were to occur, could have disastrous consequences). Generally speaking, they're not taking our women, and they're not taking our jobs (though I'm sure both occur occasionally).

The law is, of course, now technically constitutional; but it remains misguided, and will always be political pandering.

Anyone that is legitimately concerned about job losses in the U.S. should be more concerned with the state of our social welfare system, our tax system, and labor unions (and their extended impact on the operating costs of U.S. firms).

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scorch-62

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#17 scorch-62
Member since 2006 • 29763 Posts
But how is an officer going to tell the difference between illegal and legal. What if they are just walking down the street, and don't have their license with them?Agent-Zero
That was exactly the problem. [QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]Here's the law with the green text representing changes. Lawful contact is removed, and it explicitly states that no racial profiling can take place, creating a basis for punishing officers who violate it. Makes sense now.

That is certainly far more reasonable.
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z4twenny

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#18 z4twenny
Member since 2006 • 4898 Posts

Economically, legal immigration has had no known aggregate negative effects on the U.S. economy (the impact varies depending on country). This assumption is backed up by an astonishing amount of research throughout the past century. This is an extremely important point to remember.... Between 1990-2000, had illegal immigration not occurred, there would have been a labor shortage in unskilled labor (the numbers provided by the U.S. department of labor and statistics don't lie like the popular media does). Furthermore, almost all illegal immigrants are entering the unskilled (or sometimes semi-skilled) labor market. Which means that they are competing with only a select few native U.S. citizens anyway (who have been provided the means to acquire the skills necessary to enter the skilled labor force). Likewise, even when illegal, it could be argued (but isn't proven) that the impact on factors of production (such as the lowering of the wage rate) substantially outweighs the loss of tax revenue due to untaxed income and increased expenditures in the social welfare system. That is to say that there may actually be a net gain from illegal immigration, and if there isn't, it is more likely to be a breakeven than a net loss (and if it were a net loss, that loss would be minimal). Likewise, between 2008-2009 we have experienced a decrease in illegal immigration on average (year over year), to the tune of about 150,000 people (meager compared to the 14 million illegal immigrants currently residing in the U.S., but even so...) It has been proven relatively soundly that legal immigration in the U.S. typically affects the wage rate (but not the labor force participate rate) of unskilled workers almost exclusively (and this depends on immigration policy from country to country - in Canada immigration largely impacts the wage rate of skilled labor). Given the lack of statistical data (because they're undocumented), no conclusions can be drawn about the impact of illegal immigration, at least not quantitatively. We can do qualitative sociology based research though, and this research tends to support the assumption that illegal immigrants are here for the same reason as legal immigrants - unskilled labor. Thus, they impact the labor force in much the same way as legal immigrants, the only difference being the nominal loss of tax revenues and the nominal increase in tax expenditures. This issue is largely (and some might say exclusively) political. Politics often includes fabrications, exaggerations, and constituent pandering. Economics does not. The hard science says that illegal immigration should be of no concern, especially to a nation like the U.S. (in contrast, illegal immigration of unskilled labor in Japan, if it were to occur, could have disastrous consequences). Generally speaking, they're not taking our women, and they're not taking our jobs (though I'm sure both occur occasionally).HerrJosefK

this isn't terribly accurate which is a shame b/c you spent a lot of time typing it up. you're just looking exclusively at the employment side of it, you didn't recognize the strain being put on welfare and health care system. if unskilled labor would have been at an all time low at that point then its up to the employers to give a reason for NATURALLY BORN CITIZENS to work. its not ok to just take up an illegal labor force because you don't want to pay people a decent living (which is what that boils down to)

I'm not sure where you live, but in the southern states its turning more into north mexico and less of "southern united states"

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GhoX

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#19 GhoX
Member since 2006 • 6267 Posts
-This law was made with the intention of targeting a specific group of people. -This law strips away some rights of this specific group of people. Unless being arrested, a person has the right to ignore a police officer's question/request, remain silent, slowly back away and dance a jig. This law undermines that right. -This law undermines the assumption of "innocent until proven guilty". -Mexicans aren't the only illegal immigrants, there are plenty Caucasian illegal immigrants. For these reasons, actual citizens may be negatively affected simply due to having the ethnic background of potential illegal immigrants.
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theone86

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#20 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

[QUOTE="Squall18"]

However, they have TONS of opportunities to do the legal registration system. Whats so hard about that?

JML897

Well, that usually takes ages. There are a lot of desperate families in Mexico who are struggling to survive, and they have a better chance to do it by coming into the states as quickly as possible (which means illegally for many). Not all illegal immigrants are drug smugglers; there are many who are pretty honest but desperate people.

That said...I usually side with the left, but I don't really agree with them on the Arizona law unless I'm missing something. It would be one thing if the police could just go up to anyone on the street and make sure they have an ID on them. I would be 100% against a law that allowed that. But from my understanding, that's not what the law states.

As I saw it, that was exactly what the law states. Before, officers had the right to question those they suspected of being illegal if they had PROBABLE CAUSE, basically what this law does is do away with that. It states that officers not only can, but are obliged to ask for ID of anyone they suspect of being illegal, given the location I really don't see how that isn't a charge for them to operate based on sterotypes. Officers in Arizona even detained a Native American based on this law, they're definitely operating with a degree of racial profiling, and if the person in question doesn't have ID, mind you doesn't mean they're necessarily illegal, the police are obligated to detain them, sounds dangerously close to Jews being required to carry papers in Nazi Germany (Godwin's Law, blah, blah, but this time it's apt).

Furthermore, this law allows for individual citizens to sue police officers if they think they're not being active enough in questioning citizens. This means if a police officer walks down the street and DOESN'T question someone who even looks Latino anyone who witnesses this can sue that officer. On top of that, this puts the burden of dealing with immigrants on the state. Intead of detaining the illegal and calling immigration services the state officers are supposed to process these claims, which means more manpower, which means more spending, and Arizona is already in a budget crisis. It's just a crappy law, and even most of the law officers who are supposed to be enforcing this law disagree with it not because it does something substantive about immigration but because it is a reactionary and ill-conceived law made to gather up votes and further political polarization.

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dann14v

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#21 dann14v
Member since 2005 • 689 Posts

Fixing up the border and re-evaluating the methods in which someone can become a citizen is still, in my mind, a better solution to the problem of illegal immigration.

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HerrJosefK

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#22 HerrJosefK
Member since 2009 • 444 Posts

z4twenny
I did include concerns for the welfare system (and by extension, welfare-funded health care programs), and it is accurate (theoretically accurate, because there isn't enough raw data available on undocumented workers). I also made an edit to include more complete considerations for other factors that impact the current state of our welfare system, which are far more detrimental, and of our own design. Likewise, outside of welfare-funded care, illegal immigrants don't have much of an impact on the health care industry. Read it one more time. :) For the record, I'm ethnically British and Swedish, and I love living in Mexifloricuba. Me gusta son bonita chicas. Spanglish is fun! :)

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xhellcatx

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#23 xhellcatx
Member since 2006 • 9015 Posts
All I know is it is freaking hard for someone to come to the US Legally... impossible for some, even tho they may be an asset. ..... yea its hit home for me, and the laws making it SO hard destroyed my relationship with my boyfriend of 1 year :( ... broke up with me last night over it actually. Some times people who would give or do anything to be in the US would do anything to get here, even if it is illegally. I do believe in the law... If you are an Illegal immigrant.. then you are here illegally... breaking the law is not good. its there for a reason. .. I do believe though, that the immigration needs to fix their processing, and make it a little easier for those who would like to come here, to work and be an asset to the economy instead of a drain on it, should be allowed to do so, and at a reasonable cost (as some are coming here because they have no money or hope in their home country). To move here with the hopes of opening your own business, ....it costs 150,000. USD. .... i mean you could buy a cute lil house for that. Then.. thats just the forms... that doesnt include the wait process, and money to be able to start your business. Its ridiculous really.
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firedonut

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#24 firedonut
Member since 2007 • 390 Posts

If anyone has heard stories of people already being detained based on this law, i just want to point out that those stories are completely false, since the new law doesn't go into effect until the end of July. Furthermore, it's a federal law (since 1940) for non-citizens to always carry legal papers with them, which the entire bill is based on.

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Buttons1990

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#25 Buttons1990
Member since 2009 • 3167 Posts

I see no problem with it... If a police officer sees you and thinks you're illegal, he simply ask "Can I see some ID"... Only a problem if you are an illegal immigrant and don't have ID...

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JML897

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#26 JML897
Member since 2004 • 33134 Posts

If a police officer sees you and thinks you're illegal, he simply ask "Can I see some ID"... Only a problem if you are an illegal immigrant and don't have ID...

Buttons1990

First off, the law doesn't allow that.

Second, you really don't have a problem with that? :? Let's say you're just walking to your neighbor's house but you didn't bring your ID with you...you're fine with a cop stopping you and asking for ID? If the law allowed for things like that, it would be really easy for some police officers to just harass people.

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Vandalvideo

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#27 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]First off: It's incredibly difficult to become a citizen. Which admittedly isn't such a bad thing...most of the time. Second off: As for the law in its previous form, it created no basis of control for the officers. The only requirement for an officer to stop someone was "legal contact" something that is not at all defined in the Arizona Code of Law. Meaning, an officer could very well stop anyone who looked hispanic and detain them. Not ok. The amended law, however, I completely agree with. It explicitly states the requirements for detainment now.

Legal Contact is a really simple legal term. It just means a regular, lawful stop. Meaning; any and all regular stops recognized by statute. Legal contact is not a vague term.
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Montaya

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#28 Montaya
Member since 2005 • 4269 Posts

The law requires police officers to proactively seek down illegals requires them to profile the entire hispanic population as well as other minority ethnicities, creating a racism conflict against hispanics and their entire community. It is also speculated that it would cost much more to find and deport illegals on a grander scale then to keep them because of their benefit to the economy as cheap labor and consumers.

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xhellcatx

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#29 xhellcatx
Member since 2006 • 9015 Posts

[QUOTE="Buttons1990"]

If a police officer sees you and thinks you're illegal, he simply ask "Can I see some ID"... Only a problem if you are an illegal immigrant and don't have ID...

JML897

First off, the law doesn't allow that.

Second, you really don't have a problem with that? :? Let's say you're just walking to your neighbor's house but you didn't bring your ID with you...you're fine with a cop stopping you and asking for ID? If the law allowed for things like that, it would be really easy for some police officers to just harass people.

I completely honestly wouldnt mind. ... I should know better, and bring my ID with me. If I am truly legit, then I should be in the system, especially if I have a drivers license. If I dont have it on me, I should get a fine for it. Like $10.00, so next time maybe I wont be so careless and forget it. .... you know, no one seems to remember that these illegals came here illegally... and they SNUCK IN.... so... think about terrorists for a second... hmmmmmmmmmm .....
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Engrish_Major

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#30 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

I see no problem with it... If a police officer sees you and thinks you're illegal, he simply ask "Can I see some ID"... Only a problem if you are an illegal immigrant and don't have ID...

Buttons1990
What if you're a legal citizen and don't have ID?
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Pixel-Pirate

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#31 Pixel-Pirate
Member since 2009 • 10771 Posts

[QUOTE="Buttons1990"]

I see no problem with it... If a police officer sees you and thinks you're illegal, he simply ask "Can I see some ID"... Only a problem if you are an illegal immigrant and don't have ID...

Engrish_Major

What if you're a legal citizen and don't have ID?

Not a problem if you arn't hispanic.

If you are....well I hope you didn't have anything planned that day!

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Buttons1990

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#32 Buttons1990
Member since 2009 • 3167 Posts

[QUOTE="Buttons1990"]

If a police officer sees you and thinks you're illegal, he simply ask "Can I see some ID"... Only a problem if you are an illegal immigrant and don't have ID...

JML897

First off, the law doesn't allow that.

Second, you really don't have a problem with that? :? Let's say you're just walking to your neighbor's house but you didn't bring your ID with you...you're fine with a cop stopping you and asking for ID? If the law allowed for things like that, it would be really easy for some police officers to just harass people.

Um... It is different when half the hispanic population in the state is illegally in the country...

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Agent-Zero

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#33 Agent-Zero
Member since 2009 • 6198 Posts

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="Buttons1990"]

I see no problem with it... If a police officer sees you and thinks you're illegal, he simply ask "Can I see some ID"... Only a problem if you are an illegal immigrant and don't have ID...

Pixel-Pirate

What if you're a legal citizen and don't have ID?

Not a problem if you arn't hispanic.

If you are....well I hope you didn't have anything planned that day!

That what makes it unfair...It's not fair for citizens of Hispanic descent, or white people with a tan
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xhellcatx

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#34 xhellcatx
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[QUOTE="Buttons1990"]

I see no problem with it... If a police officer sees you and thinks you're illegal, he simply ask "Can I see some ID"... Only a problem if you are an illegal immigrant and don't have ID...

Engrish_Major
What if you're a legal citizen and don't have ID?

Social Security Cards, Birth Certificates, Regular ID, Drivers License, Military ID.. those can be used as forms of ID. If you forget your ID at home, a regular ID can be traced through the DMV. A drivers license can be traced through the police computers/dmv. I had my first ID when i was 16, cause to go to some of the clubs, you had to be 16+. Think it was only like 10 bux. *shrugs*
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majoras_wrath

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#35 majoras_wrath
Member since 2005 • 6062 Posts
[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]First off: It's incredibly difficult to become a citizen. Which admittedly isn't such a bad thing...most of the time. Second off: As for the law in its previous form, it created no basis of control for the officers. The only requirement for an officer to stop someone was "legal contact" something that is not at all defined in the Arizona Code of Law. Meaning, an officer could very well stop anyone who looked hispanic and detain them. Not ok. The amended law, however, I completely agree with. It explicitly states the requirements for detainment now.

Legal Contact is a really simple legal term. It just means a regular, lawful stop. Meaning; any and all regular stops recognized by statute. Legal contact is not a vague term.

Er I meant lawful contact, the actual wording of the law which is nowhere defined in the Arizona Code of Law or anywhere I can find online.
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#36 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"] Er I meant lawful contact, the actual wording of the law which is nowhere defined in the Arizona Code of Law or anywhere I can find online.

Lawful/legal contact are the same thing. It is a procedural definition. It just means a legal stop by the officer. IE: Speeding on a highway or a drunk check-point or running around nude on the street. That is lawful contact. Stopping a guy because he looks poor and foreign =/= lawful contact.
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#37 majoras_wrath
Member since 2005 • 6062 Posts
[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="majoras_wrath"] Er I meant lawful contact, the actual wording of the law which is nowhere defined in the Arizona Code of Law or anywhere I can find online.

Lawful/legal contact are the same thing. It is a procedural definition. It just means a legal stop by the officer. IE: Speeding on a highway or a drunk check-point or running around nude on the street. That is lawful contact. Stopping a guy because he looks poor and foreign =/= lawful contact.

Well obviously the Arizona legislation disagreed, since they changed the bill's wording to "lawful stop, detention or arrest."
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LJS9502_basic

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#38 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178873 Posts
[QUOTE="markop2003"]Seems fine to me too but a lot of Americans seem to pull out the racist card far too readily.scorch-62
The problem with it before was that ALL Hispanics (legal or not) were capable of being victims. Apparently that changed, though.

Well no. The law applies to checking anyone stopped by the police for a reason. Which is pretty much what happens anyway. If they find the individual is here illegally...they deal with that in the already established legal manner. There is actually nothing wrong with their law and I expect we'll eventually see other states adopt something similar since the feds aren't doing anything about the problem.
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#39 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"] Well obviously the Arizona legislation disagreed, since they changed the bill's wording to "lawful stop, detention or arrest."

All that means is they were spelling out the definition. Lawful contact = lawful stop, detention, or arrest.
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#40 scorch-62
Member since 2006 • 29763 Posts
[QUOTE="scorch-62"][QUOTE="markop2003"]Seems fine to me too but a lot of Americans seem to pull out the racist card far too readily.LJS9502_basic
The problem with it before was that ALL Hispanics (legal or not) were capable of being victims. Apparently that changed, though.

Well no. The law applies to checking anyone stopped by the police for a reason. Which is pretty much what happens anyway. If they find the individual is here illegally...they deal with that in the already established legal manner. There is actually nothing wrong with their law and I expect we'll eventually see other states adopt something similar since the feds aren't doing anything about the problem.

As I said, I saw nothing wrong with the amended version.
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#41 Ninja-Hippo
Member since 2008 • 23434 Posts
All it will achieve is running half their work force out of the state and making life harder for the police because the massive hispanic population will refuse to co-operate with them for fear of being asked to show their ID.
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#42 majoras_wrath
Member since 2005 • 6062 Posts
[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="majoras_wrath"] Well obviously the Arizona legislation disagreed, since they changed the bill's wording to "lawful stop, detention or arrest."

All that means is they were spelling out the definition. Lawful contact = lawful stop, detention, or arrest.

If the definition is so simple, why would they need to spell it out?
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#43 moe_rice
Member since 2004 • 2081 Posts

i think the law has it pros and cons, i knw theere are alot of illegal immigrants that just want the quite life work and hope for their kids to go to college and be someone and there others that just want to come here and just mess everything so i heard about a girl who had a 4.2 or so gpa and she applied for her to have grants to berkley college and she got denied because she was illegal but is not her fault since she was brought here when she was 8 so i dont really take sides but our goverment need to do something about it.

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EVOLV3

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#44 EVOLV3
Member since 2008 • 12210 Posts

As a Canadian I support Arizona and their efforts to deal with illegal immigration.

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#45 vidplayer8
Member since 2006 • 18549 Posts

Alright, I'm having less of a problem with this law now that I've read the newest changes.

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#46 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"] If the definition is so simple, why would they need to spell it out?

Probably because all of the legal illiterates out there were blasting them for something which for all intents and purposes wasn't all that bad.
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#47 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178873 Posts
[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="majoras_wrath"] If the definition is so simple, why would they need to spell it out?

Probably because all of the legal illiterates out there were blasting them for something which for all intents and purposes wasn't all that bad.

Ouch.....actually I don't see any change in the actual law...perhaps the wording but it doesn't look like it changed the law.
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#48 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="majoras_wrath"] If the definition is so simple, why would they need to spell it out?

Probably because all of the legal illiterates out there were blasting them for something which for all intents and purposes wasn't all that bad.

Ouch.....actually I don't see any change in the actual law...perhaps the wording but it doesn't look like it changed the law.

You're correct. The revised copy is almost the same law as before, made palatable for the average joe.
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#49 Ninja-Hippo
Member since 2008 • 23434 Posts
[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="majoras_wrath"] Er I meant lawful contact, the actual wording of the law which is nowhere defined in the Arizona Code of Law or anywhere I can find online.

Lawful/legal contact are the same thing. It is a procedural definition. It just means a legal stop by the officer. IE: Speeding on a highway or a drunk check-point or running around nude on the street. That is lawful contact. Stopping a guy because he looks poor and foreign =/= lawful contact.

Lawful contact is not limited to stopping someone for doing something wrong. That is the problem people have with it, and it IS a vague and far-reaching term. It is not limited just to those who have been stopped for violations, but to witnesses, victims and anyone who comes into contact with the police in the exercise of their duties. A police officer COULD ask for you to prove you're legal when you've done nothing wrong at all, therefore, based on nothing more than his suspicion that you're here illegally. That obviously could lead to abuse and harassment of poor hispanics. That is why the law was changed to specifically pin down that it only applies to those detained or arrested for a crime.
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#50 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"] Lawful contact is not limited to stopping someone for doing something wrong. That is the problem people have with it, and it IS a vague and far-reaching term. It is not limited just to those who have been stopped for violations, but to witnesses, victims and anyone who comes into contact with the police in the exercise of their duties. A police officer COULD ask for you to prove you're legal when you've done nothing wrong at all, therefore, based on nothing more than his suspicion that you're here illegally. That obviously could lead to abuse and harassment of poor hispanics. That is why the law was changed to specifically pin down that it only applies to those detained or arrested for a crime.

Maybe thats how they do it in Britain, but there is this district court case we have here which limits the reach of lawful contact; Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada. The only time you have to provide proof of residence if you're engaged in something which requires proof of residence in order to do in the first place. Otherwise, you only have to provide your name. What does that mean? Lawful contact in the United States only extends on the participating parties engaged in acts which require proof of residence/citizenship.