Altruism is very very bad and very very detrimental to humanity

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TopTierHustler

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#101 TopTierHustler
Member since 2012 • 3894 Posts

[QUOTE="TopTierHustler"]

It's been proven by multiple studies; the more choice somebody has in life, the less happy they are, and the countries with the biggest governments have the happiest people.

i.e. sweden.

frannkzappa

these studies are????

BAMM!!!!

Let's knock it up a notch!!!

It's counter intuitive, but yeah,

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VanHelsingBoA64

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#102 VanHelsingBoA64
Member since 2007 • 5455 Posts

tfw zuma's back

tumblr_m7dsmqBo8l1r9g4gho1_250.jpg

better rev up that ad block

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TopTierHustler

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#104 TopTierHustler
Member since 2012 • 3894 Posts

[QUOTE="TopTierHustler"]

It's been proven by multiple studies; the more choice somebody has in life, the less happy they are, and the countries with the biggest governments have the happiest people.

i.e. sweden.

Ace6301

But the countries with the biggest governments are totalitarian dictatorships. They don't seem very happy.

Stupid China!

Maybe I should add they have to be rich too.

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TopTierHustler

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#105 TopTierHustler
Member since 2012 • 3894 Posts

Essentially: LOL, toptier. smh

coolbeans90

:P:P

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branketra

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#106 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts
[QUOTE="ZumaJones07"]life is about the self. the only life you will live is happening right now and you must make it the best one. if people live for others at the expense of your own well being, then you are literally killing yourself. this is where libertarians have the right idea. live for yourself and don't impede other humans around you from doing the same. all these rules and regulations from the government are stalling the free market all because we wanna protect everybody from themselves. let people live and find out for themselves! Obama is out there telling people they can't build something on their own because he wants all that delicious government control. eff obama! he thinks we need a government of bureaucrats deciding how we should live our lives. he thinks things like public schooling, national healthcare, and the free market are bad. he and the people of earth need to realize that being selfish is good, not bad. right?

This is illogical.
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THE_DRUGGIE

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#107 THE_DRUGGIE
Member since 2006 • 25107 Posts

I skimmed this and I'll say that Pancakes are not as good as Waffles.

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ghoklebutter

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#108 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts

[QUOTE="frannkzappa"]

[QUOTE="TopTierHustler"]

It's been proven by multiple studies; the more choice somebody has in life, the less happy they are, and the countries with the biggest governments have the happiest people.

i.e. sweden.

TopTierHustler

these studies are????

BAMM!!!!

Let's knock it up a notch!!!

It's counter intuitive, but yeah,

Both of those studies are severely flawed.

First, the first one focuses on only one category of choice. There are many kinds of choices that people wish they had; they range from choices in identity to lifestyle choices, neither of which are given any attention in either article. All of this is mostly about consumer choices. (The second study you've provided has the same problem.)

Second, his evidence for the negative impact of opportunity costs is shaky. How does he know that it is the availability of choices that led to the participants assigning lower dollar values? He merely engages in speculation to "prove" his point.

Third, regarding the effect of regret, the author fails to recognize that, even if a limited number of options precludes regret (which isn't always true), he's greatly underestimating the disappointment inherent in having fewer choices. And even if it were true that regret that indirectly arises from having more choices is much more significant than disappointment because of having fewer, all it really shows is that people who have a lot of good choices but make unwise choices tend to be unhappy. In other words, it's most likely the agent's choice, not availability of choices, that leads to unhappiness.

Forth, his point about adaptation is flawed. That we lose enjoyment in things as we get used to them has nothing to do with how the availability of choice causes unhappiness. Moreover, his reasoning there suffers from the same flaws that are in his point about regret.

Fifth, his point about high expectations is only marginally better. It makes sense to say that "too-muchness" can be overwhelming. However, I think it's hasty to conclude that this is necessarily because of the greater availability of choices. The study he cites doesn't preclude the possibility that it is indecisiveness that is the underlying factor in being overwhelmed by choices. Moreover, his thought experiment is inconclusive and non-generalizable. And all it shows is that high expectations can lead to disappointment. He does nothing to show that it is precisely the greater availability of choices that could lead to his disappointment. He merely asserts that the hypothetical situation he posits is reasonable without telling why.

Finally, his assertion about how depression is linked to the greater availability of choices is flawed for the same reason his point about regret is flawed. Again, all he's showing is that people who have many choices but are disappointed by their choices tend to be unhappy. That has nothing to do with the mere fact that they have more choices. He's also arbitrarily assuming that people who have many choices necessarily experience great unhappiness because of their choices. Even if that weren't an arbitrary assumption, though, he'd still be missing the point.

As for the second study, it doesn't rule out the possibility that those people with more cable channels are more unhappy because, in trying to compensate with their unhappiness, they go full-out on wasteful and hedonistic activities like watching TV.

tl;dr: Correlation=/=causation, not all thought experiments are conclusive, and making arbitrary assumptions during research is bad.

(And yes, I wrote this post out of pure boredom.)

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freek666

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#109 freek666
Member since 2007 • 22312 Posts

tfw Objectivist but everyone looks down on you

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SaudiFury

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#110 SaudiFury
Member since 2007 • 8709 Posts

talking altruism and extending it to society...

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRTf1ug6ReAly1-LEVzQdt

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Ace6301

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#111 Ace6301
Member since 2005 • 21389 Posts

tfw Objectivist but everyone looks down on you

freek666
A true Objectivist wouldn't buy into the collective idiocy of the masses and instead forge ahead on his path toward becoming an ubermensch who will one day earn the love and respect of his equals (who clearly don't exist on this board). But Zuma isn't a very good troll let alone great man.
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coolbeans90

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#112 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="freek666"]

tfw Objectivist but everyone looks down on you

Ace6301

A true Objectivist wouldn't buy into the collective idiocy of the masses and instead forge ahead on his path toward becoming an ubermensch who will one day earn the love and respect of his equals (who clearly don't exist on this board). But Zuma isn't a very good troll let alone great man.

umm

bro

one of his alts almost got into harvard

tru story

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dkdk999

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#113 dkdk999
Member since 2007 • 6754 Posts
Yes people do bad things because of their psychological insanity not because of selfishness. But did you just say "public schooling, national healthcare, and the free market" ? lol.
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freek666

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#114 freek666
Member since 2007 • 22312 Posts

[QUOTE="freek666"]

tfw Objectivist but everyone looks down on you

Ace6301

A true Objectivist wouldn't buy into the collective idiocy of the masses and instead forge ahead on his path toward becoming an ubermensch who will one day earn the love and respect of his equals (who clearly don't exist on this board). But Zuma isn't a very good troll let alone great man.



Well that's what I've spent the last 4 years of my life trying to do, hence all the Rand, Nietzsche and LaVeyan literature around the house.

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TopTierHustler

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#115 TopTierHustler
Member since 2012 • 3894 Posts

[QUOTE="TopTierHustler"]

[QUOTE="frannkzappa"]

these studies are????

ghoklebutter

BAMM!!!!

Let's knock it up a notch!!!

It's counter intuitive, but yeah,

Both of those studies are severely flawed.

First, the first one focuses on only one category of choice. There are many kinds of choices that people wish they had; they range from choices in identity to lifestyle choices, neither of which are given any attention in either article. All of this is mostly about consumer choices. (The second study you've provided has the same problem.)

Second, his evidence for the negative impact of opportunity costs is shaky. How does he know that it is the availability of choices that led to the participants assigning lower dollar values? He merely engages in speculation to "prove" his point.

Third, regarding the effect of regret, the author fails to recognize that, even if a limited number of options precludes regret (which isn't always true), he's greatly underestimating the disappointment inherent in having fewer choices. And even if it were true that regret that indirectly arises from having more choices is much more significant than disappointment because of having fewer, all it really shows is that people who have a lot of good choices but make unwise choices tend to be unhappy. In other words, it's most likely the agent's choice, not availability of choices, that leads to unhappiness.

Forth, his point about adaptation is flawed. That we lose enjoyment in things as we get used to them has nothing to do with how the availability of choice causes unhappiness. Moreover, his reasoning there suffers from the same flaws that are in his point about regret.

Fifth, his point about high expectations is only marginally better. It makes sense to say that "too-muchness" can be overwhelming. However, I think it's hasty to conclude that this is necessarily because of the greater availability of choices. The study he cites doesn't preclude the possibility that it is indecisiveness that is the underlying factor in being overwhelmed by choices. Moreover, his thought experiment is inconclusive and non-generalizable. And all it shows is that high expectations can lead to disappointment. He does nothing to show that it is precisely the greater availability of choices that could lead to his disappointment. He merely asserts that the hypothetical situation he posits is reasonable without telling why.

Finally, his assertion about how depression is linked to the greater availability of choices is flawed for the same reason his point about regret is flawed. Again, all he's showing is that people who have many choices but are disappointed by their choices tend to be unhappy. That has nothing to do with the mere fact that they have more choices. He's also arbitrarily assuming that people who have many choices necessarily experience great unhappiness because of their choices. Even if that weren't an arbitrary assumption, though, he'd still be missing the point.

As for the second study, it doesn't rule out the possibility that those people with more cable channels are more unhappy because, in trying to compensate with their unhappiness, they go full-out on wasteful and hedonistic activities like watching TV.

tl;dr: Correlation=/=causation, not all thought experiments are conclusive, and making arbitrary assumptions during research is bad.

(And yes, I wrote this post out of pure boredom.)

I'll more into it.

Or at least find better sources.

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Ace6301

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#116 Ace6301
Member since 2005 • 21389 Posts

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="freek666"]

tfw Objectivist but everyone looks down on you

coolbeans90

A true Objectivist wouldn't buy into the collective idiocy of the masses and instead forge ahead on his path toward becoming an ubermensch who will one day earn the love and respect of his equals (who clearly don't exist on this board). But Zuma isn't a very good troll let alone great man.

umm

bro

one of his alts almost got into harvard

tru story

Bro this one time I convinced an entire island of Pygmies that I was a God. I still live there. It's great. Tru story.
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YoshiYogurt

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#117 YoshiYogurt
Member since 2010 • 6008 Posts

talking altruism and extending it to society...

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRTf1ug6ReAly1-LEVzQdt

SaudiFury
She wasn't the brightest...
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comp_atkins

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#118 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 38696 Posts
you understand that regulations also seek to protect people from other people, right? right?? :?
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tocool340

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#119 tocool340
Member since 2004 • 21653 Posts
LMAO! The king of trolls has returned. And to think I seen a Hadoken post not too long ago as well....
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juden41

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#122 juden41
Member since 2010 • 4447 Posts
Altruism is bad? Ok then. If you're trapped inside a burning car and I happen to be there, I'm not going to help, since doing the altruistic thing (saving your life) is bad. You should really think before you talk.
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Stesilaus

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#123 Stesilaus
Member since 2007 • 4999 Posts

i'm 31 years old and have a lot of experience little boy, i am very smart.

ZumaJones07

You accidentally transposed the 1 and the 3.

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lowkey254

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#124 lowkey254
Member since 2004 • 6031 Posts

"he thinks we need a government of bureaucrats deciding how we should live our lives. he thinks things like public schooling, national healthcare, and the free market are bad. he and the people of earth need to realize that being selfish is good, not bad. right?"

Um... Public Schooling is funded by the government. Regulation is good unless you want to live in the early 1900s again. Your minimum wages, your health plan offered by your job, your vehicle that has low emissions, yeah that's all due to regulations. Open up your eyes and admit that "some" regulation is good.

Altruism is very good with balance.

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British_Azimio

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#125 British_Azimio
Member since 2007 • 2459 Posts
The ego is the downfall of man, TC.
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Laihendi

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#126 Laihendi
Member since 2009 • 5872 Posts

Altruism is bad? Ok then. If you're trapped inside a burning car and I happen to be there, I'm not going to help, since doing the altruistic thing (saving your life) is bad. You should really think before you talk.juden41
Altruism generally implies sacrificing yourself for someone else. Why is your life less valuable than the life of the person in the burning car? Why is your safety less important than his? Why does he deserve to have you risk your life for a chance to save him?

The ego is the downfall of man, TC.British_Azimio

Can you back that claim up with anything at all?

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British_Azimio

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#128 British_Azimio
Member since 2007 • 2459 Posts
If you're even asking me to back up a 'claim', there's absolutely nothing that I can say that will give you the hint. There is nothing to back up. It's painfully visible everywhere, in everyone, every day.
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Laihendi

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#129 Laihendi
Member since 2009 • 5872 Posts
If you're even asking me to back up a 'claim', there's absolutely nothing that I can say that will give you the hint. There is nothing to back up. It's painfully visible everywhere, in everyone, every day.British_Azimio
So you can't back it up then? I'm not really understanding you. If it's so "painfully visible" it should be pretty easy to back up. Just one example, perhaps?
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Omni-Wrath

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#130 Omni-Wrath
Member since 2008 • 1970 Posts

[QUOTE="juden41"]Altruism is bad? Ok then. If you're trapped inside a burning car and I happen to be there, I'm not going to help, since doing the altruistic thing (saving your life) is bad. You should really think before you talk.Laihendi

Altruism generally implies sacrificing yourself for someone else. Why is your life less valuable than the life of the person in the burning car? Why is your safety less important than his? Why does he deserve to have you risk your life for a chance to save him?

The ego is the downfall of man, TC.British_Azimio

Can you back that claim up with anything at all?

Altruism is the principle or practice of concern for the welfare of others. And your example is a straw man. Altruism does not imply sacrificing your whole life. More over, altruism was necessary for humans as a specie to survive.

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Philokalia

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#131 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

Weren't you a big Obama guy a few months ago?

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Laihendi

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#132 Laihendi
Member since 2009 • 5872 Posts

[QUOTE="Laihendi"]

[QUOTE="juden41"] Altruism generally implies sacrificing yourself for someone else. Why is your life less valuable than the life of the person in the burning car? Why is your safety less important than his? Why does he deserve to have you risk your life for a chance to save him?

[QUOTE="British_Azimio"]The ego is the downfall of man, TC.Omni-Wrath

Can you back that claim up with anything at all?

Altruism is the principle or practice of concern for the welfare of others. And your example is a straw man. Altruism does not imply sacrificing your whole life. More over, altruism was necessary for humans as a specie to survive.

Firstly, the example wasn't mine. It belongs to the person I was quoting, and I was clearly criticizing it. Secondly, harming yourself for the benefit of someone else is a sacrifice, regardless of whether or not you go so far as to give up your life. Genuine altruism always involves self-sacrifice.
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juden41

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#133 juden41
Member since 2010 • 4447 Posts
If you're even asking me to back up a 'claim', there's absolutely nothing that I can say that will give you the hint. There is nothing to back up. It's painfully visible everywhere, in everyone, every day.British_Azimio
Dude, ignore him, people don't think anymore.
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kuraimen

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#134 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts
Your post is so stupid that even your sig facepalmed.
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kuraimen

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#135 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts
[QUOTE="juden41"]Altruism is bad? Ok then. If you're trapped inside a burning car and I happen to be there, I'm not going to help, since doing the altruistic thing (saving your life) is bad. You should really think before you talk.

I think these people should wear badges. That way next time they're in peril or need assistance people can point at them and say "oh look, he's one of those who can do everything by themselves lol. Lets see him try it, I brought my camera."
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Victorious_Fize

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#136 Victorious_Fize
Member since 2011 • 6128 Posts

Holy snappin' duck sh!t!?!

Iszdope
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Laihendi

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#137 Laihendi
Member since 2009 • 5872 Posts

[QUOTE="British_Azimio"]If you're even asking me to back up a 'claim', there's absolutely nothing that I can say that will give you the hint. There is nothing to back up. It's painfully visible everywhere, in everyone, every day.juden41
Dude, ignore him, people don't think anymore.

I find it ironic that you two refuse to even attempt to answer a legitimate question, and then you accuse those who ask questions of not thinking. In case you aren't aware, an important part of thinking is asking questions (and attempting to answer them). Parroting dogma is not the same as thinking.

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indzman

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#138 indzman
Member since 2006 • 27736 Posts

ZumaZoom is back =D

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kuraimen

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#139 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts

[QUOTE="juden41"]Altruism is bad? Ok then. If you're trapped inside a burning car and I happen to be there, I'm not going to help, since doing the altruistic thing (saving your life) is bad. You should really think before you talk.Laihendi

Altruism generally implies sacrificing yourself for someone else. Why is your life less valuable than the life of the person in the burning car? Why is your safety less important than his? Why does he deserve to have you risk your life for a chance to save him?

The ego is the downfall of man, TC.British_Azimio

Can you back that claim up with anything at all?

Even Charles Darwin understood that we, as a species, are a product of successful collaborators. Altruism in social species evolved because helping others is part of helping the group you live in and, therefore, surviving. Humans are not equipped to fend for themselves much less in Africa where animals like lions and tigers were much more physically powerful and agile. Our biggest advantages over other animals and the environment arose thanks to our social nature and include language which not only helps communicate but also create a shared world model, the capacity for heterotechnic cooperation which in the end helped us hunt and create technology, and culture which simulates a type of evolutionary adaptation really flexible for changing contexts. Not other animals are capable of that and that's all thanks to us being and evolved as social animals. Our sociality and its traits like altruism makes us the most versatile and powerful species out there. This has all been corroborated time and time again by scientific, linguistic, anthropologic, biologic, cognitive studies. Anyone who still lives in the fairy tale notion that we are made to live or that we can live without others is basically blind or choosing to stay ignorant which is the worst way to be ignorant.
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Victorious_Fize

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#140 Victorious_Fize
Member since 2011 • 6128 Posts
OT is dead. I miss MissL so much.
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kingdre

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#141 kingdre
Member since 2005 • 9456 Posts

Well this was an interesting read.

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indzman

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#142 indzman
Member since 2006 • 27736 Posts

I miss MissL so much.Victorious_Fize

OT is not dead 'yet', but ye MissL is missed by all of us as well

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sexyweapons

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#143 sexyweapons
Member since 2009 • 5302 Posts

OMG TC'S BEEN BANNED!

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Teenaged

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#144 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

if trolling: stop making conservatives look bad.

kingkong0124

Is it possible to make them look worse?

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Teenaged

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#145 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

OMG TC'S BEEN BANNED!

sexyweapons

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA

Thnx, GS mods/admins.

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indzman

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#146 indzman
Member since 2006 • 27736 Posts

[QUOTE="sexyweapons"]

OMG TC'S BEEN BANNED!

Teenaged

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA

Thnx, GS mods/admins.

WOW, it was fast. wonder why :P

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Laihendi

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#147 Laihendi
Member since 2009 • 5872 Posts

[QUOTE="Laihendi"]

[QUOTE="juden41"] Altruism generally implies sacrificing yourself for someone else. Why is your life less valuable than the life of the person in the burning car? Why is your safety less important than his? Why does he deserve to have you risk your life for a chance to save him?

[QUOTE="British_Azimio"]The ego is the downfall of man, TC.kuraimen

Can you back that claim up with anything at all?

Even Charles Darwin understood that we, as a species, are a product of successful collaborators. Altruism in social species evolved because helping others is part of helping the group you live in and, therefore, surviving. Humans are not equipped to fend for themselves much less in Africa where animals like lions and tigers were much more physically powerful and agile. Our biggest advantages over other animals and the environment arose thanks to our social nature and include language which not only helps communicate but also create a shared world model, the capacity for heterotechnic cooperation which in the end helped us hunt and create technology, and culture which simulates a type of evolutionary adaptation really flexible for changing contexts. Not other animals are capable of that and that's all thanks to us being and evolved as social animals. Our sociality and its traits like altruism makes us the most versatile and powerful species out there. This has all been corroborated time and time again by scientific, linguistic, anthropologic, biologic, cognitive studies. Anyone who still lives in the fairy tale notion that we are made to live or that we can live without others is basically blind or choosing to stay ignorant which is the worst way to be ignorant.

I'm not claiming that anyone can live without help from others. What I'm questioning is the widespread belief that weshould live to serve others, and that it is a good thing to indiscriminately sacrifice yourself for others. Those seem to be ideals to the promoters of altruism. Perhaps I am misunderstanding them?

These quote boxes are messed up but whatever.

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juden41

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#149 juden41
Member since 2010 • 4447 Posts

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

if trolling: stop making conservatives look bad.

Teenaged

Is it possible to make them look worse?

I'm sorry you have such an extreme view of politics where you think all conservatism = bad. I'm sorry you can't see the good on both sides.
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Teenaged

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#150 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

if trolling: stop making conservatives look bad.

juden41

Is it possible to make them look worse?

I'm sorry you have such an extreme view of politics where you think all conservatism = bad. I'm sorry you can't see the good on both sides.

Did I say all conservatism = bad?