A 100% chance at $1 million or a 50% chance at $1 billion?

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Heisenderp

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#201 Heisenderp
Member since 2011 • 815 Posts

I can understand people taking the million because you are guaranteed the money.

But I agree with nocoolnamejim, unless you are homeless or struggling day by day just to keep your house or in a lot of debt then the 1 billion makes a lot more sense. 1 million will only go so far in today's economy and while for me personally it would be a BIG help, I'm not dying without it and so would take the chance on the billion. Because as jim said that would REALLY be the life changing amount for ANYONE.

howlrunner13

If you're not a dumbass and if you invest your million carefully, you can easily make it last a lifetime.

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nocoolnamejim

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#202 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] ...i don't understand what you don't understandanthonycg

I do. Most of the discussion here is revolving around the ability to put yourself into the shoes of a different economic class. Funky touched on it. For someone living on the streets trolling the dumpsters of McDonalds to be able to rob it for leftovers that the children who just got the Happy Meal for the latest movie promo toy threw away, then the million dollars is the good bet. For people who either: A. Understand math B. Are so desperate that they'd rather have the guaranteed security than the mathematical right answer Then $1M can be life changing IN THE LONG TERM. For me, $1M is not THAT life changing. It is to an extent, but I'm well off enough that I'd absolutely take the $1B odds because I'm COMFORTABLE ENOUGH that I am okay with LOSING the 50/50 shot. Put another way, I'm still totally good with my life without a guaranteed 1M for the REALLY life changing 1B. For others, 1M IS life changing even if it isn't worth what it used to be.

This is simply not true. The basic idea is that there is simply no reason not to take the sure thing. And regardless of the mathematics, very few decisions in business are ever made when the possible success rate is only 50%. Even if the 1 million was not a big deal to me, it is 1 miliion more than I had as opposed to the option of simply not getting anything. It could easily be invested into a significantly larger amount over time. And even if I didn't want it, I could donate it to charity or something. If it did not help me then I would help someone else with it.

Now your rationale seems to be that you will not take anything that is free because you feel that you already have enough. But I don't think that this is very sensible at all as it seems that you are simply throwing away a free opportunity to somewhat improve your situation or at least someone else's. I can't exactly argue with this idea but it seems to be a waste of resources to gamble it away.

While my rationale stems from the fact that I am in college and am up my arse in loans, I don't believe that improved circumstances would make it any less relevant.

You simply need to pay more attention in your classes and specifically the concept of cost/benefit analysis because my statement IS TRUE. For myself, actually being in a business and, more specifically, doing financial analysis for a Fortune 100 company, they'd absolutely rather take the 50/50 chance of a billion dollars over the guaranteed 1M. This isn't a fuzzy concept. It's based on mathematical expected value analysis. Your expected value when taking a 50/50 on 1B is FAR...and I want to emphasize this..LIGHT YEARS higher than taking the $1M guaranteed.
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#203 howlrunner13
Member since 2005 • 4408 Posts

[QUOTE="howlrunner13"]

I can understand people taking the million because you are guaranteed the money.

But I agree with nocoolnamejim, unless you are homeless or struggling day by day just to keep your house or in a lot of debt then the 1 billion makes a lot more sense. 1 million will only go so far in today's economy and while for me personally it would be a BIG help, I'm not dying without it and so would take the chance on the billion. Because as jim said that would REALLY be the life changing amount for ANYONE.

Heisenderp

If you're not a dumbass and if you invest your million carefully, you can easily make it last a lifetime.

Yes you could make it last a lifetime - with very careful planning. With a billion you wouldn't have that worry and risk.

I can see merits for both sides of the argument but for me I think it would make better sense to take the chance on the billion.

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Ugalde-

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#204 Ugalde-
Member since 2009 • 3732 Posts
[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="Ugalde-"]@rawsavon A million is a guaranteed house and car.

and...not life changing (for me)

Yeah for someone like me that would be amazing. I live in a crappy apartment with a broke family and I'm really struggling to get my car out of repo right now.
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#205 Van_SteubenZ
Member since 2012 • 232 Posts
[QUOTE="Ugalde-"][QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="Ugalde-"]@rawsavon A million is a guaranteed house and car.

and...not life changing (for me)

Yeah for someone like me that would be amazing. I live in a crappy apartment with a broke family and I'm really struggling to get my car out of repo right now.

Really?
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#206 NiKva
Member since 2010 • 8181 Posts
Guaranteed million. There's no reason to go against it.
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coolbeans90

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#207 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

ITT: People can do odds, but don't realize that money has diminishing marginal returns and a million can make life very comfortable if not spent.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="SEANMCAD"]ok lets think about this for a moment shall we? what is the average HOUSEHOLD salary in the US? 63,000. mattbbpl
exactly ...so after (fed and state) taxes you will get less than 10 years current salary (no inflation) I would like to have that. But that is not existence altering. Versus more money than you and most everyone will ever know will make in their lifetime

The TC specifically stated it would be tax free.

Then, put that money to work for you (read: invest it) and it definitely could be life altering.

Which is exactly the case.

$1 millions now could be a hell of a lot more by the time I'm no longer willing to do sh*t for a living, whereas the difference between 1$ billion and $10 billion wouldn't matter as much.

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coolbeans90

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#208 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="anthonycg"]

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"] I do. Most of the discussion here is revolving around the ability to put yourself into the shoes of a different economic class. Funky touched on it. For someone living on the streets trolling the dumpsters of McDonalds to be able to rob it for leftovers that the children who just got the Happy Meal for the latest movie promo toy threw away, then the million dollars is the good bet. For people who either: A. Understand math B. Are so desperate that they'd rather have the guaranteed security than the mathematical right answer Then $1M can be life changing IN THE LONG TERM. For me, $1M is not THAT life changing. It is to an extent, but I'm well off enough that I'd absolutely take the $1B odds because I'm COMFORTABLE ENOUGH that I am okay with LOSING the 50/50 shot. Put another way, I'm still totally good with my life without a guaranteed 1M for the REALLY life changing 1B. For others, 1M IS life changing even if it isn't worth what it used to be.nocoolnamejim

This is simply not true. The basic idea is that there is simply no reason not to take the sure thing. And regardless of the mathematics, very few decisions in business are ever made when the possible success rate is only 50%. Even if the 1 million was not a big deal to me, it is 1 miliion more than I had as opposed to the option of simply not getting anything. It could easily be invested into a significantly larger amount over time. And even if I didn't want it, I could donate it to charity or something. If it did not help me then I would help someone else with it.

Now your rationale seems to be that you will not take anything that is free because you feel that you already have enough. But I don't think that this is very sensible at all as it seems that you are simply throwing away a free opportunity to somewhat improve your situation or at least someone else's. I can't exactly argue with this idea but it seems to be a waste of resources to gamble it away.

While my rationale stems from the fact that I am in college and am up my arse in loans, I don't believe that improved circumstances would make it any less relevant.

You simply need to pay more attention in your classes and specifically the concept of cost/benefit analysis because my statement IS TRUE. For myself, actually being in a business and, more specifically, doing financial analysis for a Fortune 100 company, they'd absolutely rather take the 50/50 chance of a billion dollars over the guaranteed 1M. This isn't a fuzzy concept. It's based on mathematical expected value analysis. Your expected value when taking a 50/50 on 1B is FAR...and I want to emphasize this..LIGHT YEARS higher than taking the $1M guaranteed.

That million dollar head start into a retirement account matters quite a bit more than the next million and so forth; not all dollars are equal.

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#209 anthonycg
Member since 2009 • 2017 Posts

[QUOTE="anthonycg"]

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"] I do. Most of the discussion here is revolving around the ability to put yourself into the shoes of a different economic class. Funky touched on it. For someone living on the streets trolling the dumpsters of McDonalds to be able to rob it for leftovers that the children who just got the Happy Meal for the latest movie promo toy threw away, then the million dollars is the good bet. For people who either: A. Understand math B. Are so desperate that they'd rather have the guaranteed security than the mathematical right answer Then $1M can be life changing IN THE LONG TERM. For me, $1M is not THAT life changing. It is to an extent, but I'm well off enough that I'd absolutely take the $1B odds because I'm COMFORTABLE ENOUGH that I am okay with LOSING the 50/50 shot. Put another way, I'm still totally good with my life without a guaranteed 1M for the REALLY life changing 1B. For others, 1M IS life changing even if it isn't worth what it used to be.nocoolnamejim

This is simply not true. The basic idea is that there is simply no reason not to take the sure thing. And regardless of the mathematics, very few decisions in business are ever made when the possible success rate is only 50%. Even if the 1 million was not a big deal to me, it is 1 miliion more than I had as opposed to the option of simply not getting anything. It could easily be invested into a significantly larger amount over time. And even if I didn't want it, I could donate it to charity or something. If it did not help me then I would help someone else with it.

Now your rationale seems to be that you will not take anything that is free because you feel that you already have enough. But I don't think that this is very sensible at all as it seems that you are simply throwing away a free opportunity to somewhat improve your situation or at least someone else's. I can't exactly argue with this idea but it seems to be a waste of resources to gamble it away.

While my rationale stems from the fact that I am in college and am up my arse in loans, I don't believe that improved circumstances would make it any less relevant.

You simply need to pay more attention in your classes and specifically the concept of cost/benefit analysis because my statement IS TRUE. For myself, actually being in a business and, more specifically, doing financial analysis for a Fortune 100 company, they'd absolutely rather take the 50/50 chance of a billion dollars over the guaranteed 1M. This isn't a fuzzy concept. It's based on mathematical expected value analysis. Your expected value when taking a 50/50 on 1B is FAR...and I want to emphasize this..LIGHT YEARS higher than taking the $1M guaranteed.

If this is true then it can only be because they are interested in possible net gains. And since the main objective of any business is to stay alive and get bigger, that is understandable. It seems to me that this is the only situation in which this could work and that someone would have to be extremely well off to see 1 million as not worth it and even then they would have to be doing it only from the standpoint of increasing their revenue.

I do see how circumstances could change the decision though. But now I would wager that there are still more uses for that 1 million dolars even for upper class citizens than for a Fortune 100 and it would change their decision.

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#210 Ugalde-
Member since 2009 • 3732 Posts
[QUOTE="Van_SteubenZ"][QUOTE="Ugalde-"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] and...not life changing (for me)

Yeah for someone like me that would be amazing. I live in a crappy apartment with a broke family and I'm really struggling to get my car out of repo right now.

Really?

Yupp :(
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#211 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="anthonycg"]

This is simply not true. The basic idea is that there is simply no reason not to take the sure thing. And regardless of the mathematics, very few decisions in business are ever made when the possible success rate is only 50%. Even if the 1 million was not a big deal to me, it is 1 miliion more than I had as opposed to the option of simply not getting anything. It could easily be invested into a significantly larger amount over time. And even if I didn't want it, I could donate it to charity or something. If it did not help me then I would help someone else with it.

Now your rationale seems to be that you will not take anything that is free because you feel that you already have enough. But I don't think that this is very sensible at all as it seems that you are simply throwing away a free opportunity to somewhat improve your situation or at least someone else's. I can't exactly argue with this idea but it seems to be a waste of resources to gamble it away.

While my rationale stems from the fact that I am in college and am up my arse in loans, I don't believe that improved circumstances would make it any less relevant.

coolbeans90

You simply need to pay more attention in your classes and specifically the concept of cost/benefit analysis because my statement IS TRUE. For myself, actually being in a business and, more specifically, doing financial analysis for a Fortune 100 company, they'd absolutely rather take the 50/50 chance of a billion dollars over the guaranteed 1M. This isn't a fuzzy concept. It's based on mathematical expected value analysis. Your expected value when taking a 50/50 on 1B is FAR...and I want to emphasize this..LIGHT YEARS higher than taking the $1M guaranteed.

That million dollar head start into a retirement account matter quite a bit more than the next million and so forth; not all dollars are equal.

Granted. But for the folks where $1M guaranteed overcomes the expected value on a 50/50 shot at $1B, do you really think that the END RESULT outcome is going to be that a lot of individuals are going to turn a $1M guaranteed into more than the expected value (EV hereforth) of a 50/50 $1B? When you factor in inflation and time value of money, it's going to take a really Will Hunting level of floor mopper or homeless dude intellect for the math alone not to say that the 50/50 shot isn't the correct answer. I'm a reasonably smart dude, but I doubt that I'd be able to turn $1M guaranteed into a better end result than a 50/50 on 1B RIGHT NOW over my lifetime.

Even if people assume I'm not as smart as I think I am (okay...reasonable assumption) this isn't $1M vs. a 50/50 against $10M. It would take a Albert Einstein level brain for the expected end value not to argue in favor of going for the $1B.
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#212 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="anthonycg"]

This is simply not true. The basic idea is that there is simply no reason not to take the sure thing. And regardless of the mathematics, very few decisions in business are ever made when the possible success rate is only 50%. Even if the 1 million was not a big deal to me, it is 1 miliion more than I had as opposed to the option of simply not getting anything. It could easily be invested into a significantly larger amount over time. And even if I didn't want it, I could donate it to charity or something. If it did not help me then I would help someone else with it.

Now your rationale seems to be that you will not take anything that is free because you feel that you already have enough. But I don't think that this is very sensible at all as it seems that you are simply throwing away a free opportunity to somewhat improve your situation or at least someone else's. I can't exactly argue with this idea but it seems to be a waste of resources to gamble it away.

While my rationale stems from the fact that I am in college and am up my arse in loans, I don't believe that improved circumstances would make it any less relevant.

anthonycg

You simply need to pay more attention in your classes and specifically the concept of cost/benefit analysis because my statement IS TRUE. For myself, actually being in a business and, more specifically, doing financial analysis for a Fortune 100 company, they'd absolutely rather take the 50/50 chance of a billion dollars over the guaranteed 1M. This isn't a fuzzy concept. It's based on mathematical expected value analysis. Your expected value when taking a 50/50 on 1B is FAR...and I want to emphasize this..LIGHT YEARS higher than taking the $1M guaranteed.

If this is true then it can only be because they are interested in possible net gains. And since the main objective of any business is to stay alive and get bigger, that is understandable. It seems to me that this is the only situation in which this could work and that someone would have to be extremely well off to see 1 million as not worth it and even then they would have to be doing it only from the standpoint of increasing their revenue.

I do see how circumstances could change the decision though. But now I would wager that there are still more uses for that 1 million dolars even for upper class citizens than for a Fortune 100 and it would change their decision.

The main objective of any business is not to exist, it is to maximize profits for their shareholders. Imagine yourself at a shareholder review meeting. People are voting on the next CEO. Now imagine you're a big enough business where your investments could conceivably rake in $1B in revenue. (There aren't many of those.) Or you could say that I made a deal for 1M. ( 1/1000 of the deal you could have made.) That means you're ALREADY a billion dollar plus business, which means that losing $1M is lost change in the CEO's sofa cushions whereas $1B is real money. Put more simply, $1B is ONE THOUSAND TIMES more than $1M. From a math based standpoint, this is so far from a decision that any professor who isn't a total moron would flunk you if all you're allowed to consider is the math.
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#213 anthonycg
Member since 2009 • 2017 Posts

[QUOTE="anthonycg"]

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"] You simply need to pay more attention in your classes and specifically the concept of cost/benefit analysis because my statement IS TRUE. For myself, actually being in a business and, more specifically, doing financial analysis for a Fortune 100 company, they'd absolutely rather take the 50/50 chance of a billion dollars over the guaranteed 1M. This isn't a fuzzy concept. It's based on mathematical expected value analysis. Your expected value when taking a 50/50 on 1B is FAR...and I want to emphasize this..LIGHT YEARS higher than taking the $1M guaranteed.nocoolnamejim

If this is true then it can only be because they are interested in possible net gains. And since the main objective of any business is to stay alive and get bigger, that is understandable. It seems to me that this is the only situation in which this could work and that someone would have to be extremely well off to see 1 million as not worth it and even then they would have to be doing it only from the standpoint of increasing their revenue.

I do see how circumstances could change the decision though. But now I would wager that there are still more uses for that 1 million dolars even for upper class citizens than for a Fortune 100 and it would change their decision.

The main objective of any business is not to exist, it is to maximize profits for their shareholders. Imagine yourself at a shareholder review meeting. People are voting on the next CEO. Now imagine you're a big enough business where your investments could conceivably rake in $1B in revenue. (There aren't many of those.) Or you could say that I made a deal for 1M. ( 1/1000 of the deal you could have made.) That means you're ALREADY a billion dollar plus business, which means that losing $1M is lost change in the CEO's sofa cushions whereas $1B is real money. Put more simply, $1B is ONE THOUSAND TIMES more than $1M. From a math based standpoint, this is so far from a decision that any professor who isn't a total moron would flunk you if all you're allowed to consider is the math.

Ok I'll buy that but can you really say that this is a good decision for the average Joe? Because in that situation 1 million could be a huge loss.

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dave123321

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#214 dave123321
Member since 2003 • 35553 Posts
Oh go for the billion. Would be fantastic. If not, would be content I took the chance and lost.
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#215 dontshackzmii
Member since 2009 • 6026 Posts

would make a million greed can be a mans worst enemy.

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#216 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"] You simply need to pay more attention in your classes and specifically the concept of cost/benefit analysis because my statement IS TRUE. For myself, actually being in a business and, more specifically, doing financial analysis for a Fortune 100 company, they'd absolutely rather take the 50/50 chance of a billion dollars over the guaranteed 1M. This isn't a fuzzy concept. It's based on mathematical expected value analysis. Your expected value when taking a 50/50 on 1B is FAR...and I want to emphasize this..LIGHT YEARS higher than taking the $1M guaranteed.nocoolnamejim

That million dollar head start into a retirement account matter quite a bit more than the next million and so forth; not all dollars are equal.

Granted. But for the folks where $1M guaranteed overcomes the expected value on a 50/50 shot at $1B, do you really think that the END RESULT outcome is going to be that a lot of individuals are going to turn a $1M guaranteed into more than the expected value (EV hereforth) of a 50/50 $1B? When you factor in inflation and time value of money, it's going to take a really Will Hunting level of floor mopper or homeless dude intellect for the math alone not to say that the 50/50 shot isn't the correct answer. I'm a reasonably smart dude, but I doubt that I'd be able to turn $1M guaranteed into a better end result than a 50/50 on 1B RIGHT NOW over my lifetime.
Even if people assume I'm not as smart as I think I am (okay...reasonable assumption) this isn't $1M vs. a 50/50 against $10M. It would take a Albert Einstein level brain for the expected end value not to argue in favor of going for the $1B.

Read what I wrote: not all dollars are equal. In short, the last ~ $985 million aren't going to drastically increase the quality of life, even if the sheer amount money is that much more. It's a simple matter of diminishing marginal utility. The million never going to be turned into $.5 billion, but it's readily going to be turned into 8-digits, provided the guy isn't an idiot - and that, in short, guarantees a reasonably comfortable life in the future. Starting with a million bucks at the age of 20 is enough to be wealthy upon retirement, even factoring in things such as inflation. Conversely, the 50/50 shot at a billion 1) Doesn't guarantee a noticeably quality of life in the long run (short term consumption would need to be deferred in order to invest) and 2) has a 50% shot of losing a reasonably high quality of life.

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#217 BuryMe
Member since 2004 • 22017 Posts

I'll take the million.

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#218 SUD123456
Member since 2007 • 6953 Posts

[QUOTE="anthonycg"]

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"] I do. Most of the discussion here is revolving around the ability to put yourself into the shoes of a different economic class. Funky touched on it. For someone living on the streets trolling the dumpsters of McDonalds to be able to rob it for leftovers that the children who just got the Happy Meal for the latest movie promo toy threw away, then the million dollars is the good bet. For people who either: A. Understand math B. Are so desperate that they'd rather have the guaranteed security than the mathematical right answer Then $1M can be life changing IN THE LONG TERM. For me, $1M is not THAT life changing. It is to an extent, but I'm well off enough that I'd absolutely take the $1B odds because I'm COMFORTABLE ENOUGH that I am okay with LOSING the 50/50 shot. Put another way, I'm still totally good with my life without a guaranteed 1M for the REALLY life changing 1B. For others, 1M IS life changing even if it isn't worth what it used to be.nocoolnamejim

This is simply not true. The basic idea is that there is simply no reason not to take the sure thing. And regardless of the mathematics, very few decisions in business are ever made when the possible success rate is only 50%. Even if the 1 million was not a big deal to me, it is 1 miliion more than I had as opposed to the option of simply not getting anything. It could easily be invested into a significantly larger amount over time. And even if I didn't want it, I could donate it to charity or something. If it did not help me then I would help someone else with it.

Now your rationale seems to be that you will not take anything that is free because you feel that you already have enough. But I don't think that this is very sensible at all as it seems that you are simply throwing away a free opportunity to somewhat improve your situation or at least someone else's. I can't exactly argue with this idea but it seems to be a waste of resources to gamble it away.

While my rationale stems from the fact that I am in college and am up my arse in loans, I don't believe that improved circumstances would make it any less relevant.

You simply need to pay more attention in your classes and specifically the concept of cost/benefit analysis because my statement IS TRUE. For myself, actually being in a business and, more specifically, doing financial analysis for a Fortune 100 company, they'd absolutely rather take the 50/50 chance of a billion dollars over the guaranteed 1M. This isn't a fuzzy concept. It's based on mathematical expected value analysis. Your expected value when taking a 50/50 on 1B is FAR...and I want to emphasize this..LIGHT YEARS higher than taking the $1M guaranteed.

Look, I'd take the 50/50 at a $billion as well but you overstate your position.

Earned value, pot analysis etc are one means of analyzing the situation but they are not the be all and end all of the decision. Earned value has the curious distinction of establishing a value that can never be realized in this 50/50 single time event.

Speaking of single events, the whole point of pot analysis is to establish the odds based on multiple iterations of play. Any single hand in poker can be informed by the numbers, but there are no professionals that play every hand strictly on the numbers.

And your example of a Fortune 500 company does not add anything to the discussion as the nature of the entity defines the answer, not the means of evaluation.

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#219 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

From a math based standpoint, this is so far from a decision that any professor who isn't a total moron would flunk you if all you're allowed to consider is the math. nocoolnamejim

Learn to math properly, then. The goal is to maximize satisfaction; this is NOT directly proportional to money.

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#220 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

That million dollar head start into a retirement account matter quite a bit more than the next million and so forth; not all dollars are equal.

coolbeans90

Granted. But for the folks where $1M guaranteed overcomes the expected value on a 50/50 shot at $1B, do you really think that the END RESULT outcome is going to be that a lot of individuals are going to turn a $1M guaranteed into more than the expected value (EV hereforth) of a 50/50 $1B? When you factor in inflation and time value of money, it's going to take a really Will Hunting level of floor mopper or homeless dude intellect for the math alone not to say that the 50/50 shot isn't the correct answer. I'm a reasonably smart dude, but I doubt that I'd be able to turn $1M guaranteed into a better end result than a 50/50 on 1B RIGHT NOW over my lifetime.
Even if people assume I'm not as smart as I think I am (okay...reasonable assumption) this isn't $1M vs. a 50/50 against $10M. It would take a Albert Einstein level brain for the expected end value not to argue in favor of going for the $1B.

Read what I wrote: not all dollars are equal. In short, the last ~ $985 million aren't going to drastically increase the quality of life, even if the sheer amount money is that much more. It's a simple matter of diminishing marginal utility. The million never going to be turned into $.5 billion, but it's readily going to be turned into 8-digits, provided the guy isn't an idiot - and that, in short, guarantees a reasonably comfortable life in the future. Starting with a million bucks at the age of 20 is enough to be wealthy upon retirement, even factoring in things such as inflation. Conversely, the 50/50 shot at a billion 1) Doesn't guarantee a noticeably quality of life in the long run (short term consumption would need to be deferred in order to invest) and 2) has a 50% shot of losing a reasonably high quality of life.

You're assuming everyone has the ability to make reasonably intelligent investments and decisions. In other words, you're taking a more optimistic viewpoint of the theoretical 20 year old that I'm taking. I agree in theory that someone handed a million dollars at the age of 20 SHOULD be able to make intelligent decisions to have a very comfortable standard of living from there onward.Where I disagree with your end conclusion is on three key points: 1. The marginal difference in value between $1M and $1B. These are orders of magnitude different. With $1B you're talking about never having to work again IF (and this is a big if) you're not an idiot and able to make some sound and wise decisions with that $1M. (I think you overstate the odds of people not being idiots.) With one BILLION, you're talking about possibly buying the Yankees. (Exaggeration to make a point.) 2. I think you overstate the financial knowledge of the layperson. You, my noble and friendly Beans, are a smart individual. A common thing that smart people do is assume everyone else around them is also smart "enough". In other words, you don't really fully think about the worst case scenario to the question, "How badly could someone blow a million bucks?" You ignore folks like Scottie Pippin, Antwan Walker and Allen Iverson that have made over a hundred million dollars and are now broke. I work for a Fortune 100 company. My company has decided to outsource certain positions to low cost providers in other country. Literally today I got asked, "Do I need management approval to increase our standard pricing markups over what we normally charge?" (In other words, the individual wanted to know if they needed to double check if it was okay to charge MORE than our default standard amounts.) 3. What you can do as a millionaire vs. a billionaire. [quote="Rick Santorum supporter"] And this contraceptive thing, my gosh, it's [so] inexpensive. Back in my day, they used Bayer aspirin for contraceptives. The gals put it between their knees and it wasn't that costly.

This dude is donating millions of dollars to Rick Santorum, literally reshaping the mainstream of political discourse in the Republican party, with the viewpoint that the acceptable viewpoint of sexual education is that women should put a Bayer between their legs and cross them to make sure nobody gets between their legs. The guys a effing Neanderthal but it also a billionare. He matters. Thanks to the fact he's obscenely rich, mainstream public discourse on sex ed includes the term "Cross the biitch's legs to prevent pregnancy". You don't have that power as a mere single millionare.
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nocoolnamejim

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#221 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]From a math based standpoint, this is so far from a decision that any professor who isn't a total moron would flunk you if all you're allowed to consider is the math. coolbeans90

Learn to math properly, then. The goal is to maximize satisfaction; this is NOT directly proportional to money.

Qualitative outcomes are not math based. Math is numbers. It has nothing to do with fuzzy feelings.
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coolbeans90

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#222 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]From a math based standpoint, this is so far from a decision that any professor who isn't a total moron would flunk you if all you're allowed to consider is the math. nocoolnamejim

Learn to math properly, then. The goal is to maximize satisfaction; this is NOT directly proportional to money.

Qualitative outcomes are not math based. Math is numbers. It has nothing to do with fuzzy feelings.

Health, psychological well-being, longevity, etc, are quantitatively associated with wealth and do suffer from diminishing returns.

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David719

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#223 David719
Member since 2007 • 2187 Posts

I'd probably take the risk and go for the billion.

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#224 Chris_Williams
Member since 2009 • 14882 Posts

you guys take a fun little question and debate about it and make it not fun anymore... anyway i would take the million, a billion would be nice but i never gamble unless i know i'm going to win.

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nocoolnamejim

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#225 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Learn to math properly, then. The goal is to maximize satisfaction; this is NOT directly proportional to money.

coolbeans90

Qualitative outcomes are not math based. Math is numbers. It has nothing to do with fuzzy feelings.

Health, psychological well-being, longevity, are are quantitatively associated with wealth and do suffer from diminishing returns.

Nitpicking my friend. I conceded a while ago that someone living on the streets eating out of dumpsters should ignore the maximizing outcome of the math to take the guaranteed million. I'm not ignoring the things you mention. But someone earning the median income in the US? They should take the pot odds of the 50/50 shot at a billion.
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nocoolnamejim

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#226 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts

you guys take a fun little question and debate about it and make it not fun anymore... anyway i would take the million, a billion would be nice but i never gamble unless i know i'm going to win.

Chris_Williams
It's because some of us, myself included, are way too damned impressed with how smart we are. :P
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coolbeans90

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#227 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"] Granted. But for the folks where $1M guaranteed overcomes the expected value on a 50/50 shot at $1B, do you really think that the END RESULT outcome is going to be that a lot of individuals are going to turn a $1M guaranteed into more than the expected value (EV hereforth) of a 50/50 $1B? When you factor in inflation and time value of money, it's going to take a really Will Hunting level of floor mopper or homeless dude intellect for the math alone not to say that the 50/50 shot isn't the correct answer. I'm a reasonably smart dude, but I doubt that I'd be able to turn $1M guaranteed into a better end result than a 50/50 on 1B RIGHT NOW over my lifetime.
Even if people assume I'm not as smart as I think I am (okay...reasonable assumption) this isn't $1M vs. a 50/50 against $10M. It would take a Albert Einstein level brain for the expected end value not to argue in favor of going for the $1B.nocoolnamejim

Read what I wrote: not all dollars are equal. In short, the last ~ $985 million aren't going to drastically increase the quality of life, even if the sheer amount money is that much more. It's a simple matter of diminishing marginal utility. The million never going to be turned into $.5 billion, but it's readily going to be turned into 8-digits, provided the guy isn't an idiot - and that, in short, guarantees a reasonably comfortable life in the future. Starting with a million bucks at the age of 20 is enough to be wealthy upon retirement, even factoring in things such as inflation. Conversely, the 50/50 shot at a billion 1) Doesn't guarantee a noticeably quality of life in the long run (short term consumption would need to be deferred in order to invest) and 2) has a 50% shot of losing a reasonably high quality of life.

You're assuming everyone has the ability to make reasonably intelligent investments and decisions. In other words, you're taking a more optimistic viewpoint of the theoretical 20 year old that I'm taking. I agree in theory that someone handed a million dollars at the age of 20 SHOULD be able to make intelligent decisions to have a very comfortable standard of living from there onward.Where I disagree with your end conclusion is on three key points: 1. The marginal difference in value between $1M and $1B. These are orders of magnitude different. With $1B you're talking about never having to work again IF (and this is a big if) you're not an idiot and able to make some sound and wise decisions with that $1M. (I think you overstate the odds of people not being idiots.) With one BILLION, you're talking about possibly buying the Yankees. (Exaggeration to make a point.) 2. I think you overstate the financial knowledge of the layperson. You, my noble and friendly Beans, are a smart individual. A common thing that smart people do is assume everyone else around them is also smart "enough". In other words, you don't really fully think about the worst case scenario to the question, "How badly could someone blow a million bucks?" You ignore folks like Scottie Pippin, Antwan Walker and Allen Iverson that have made over a hundred million dollars and are now broke. I work for a Fortune 100 company. My company has decided to outsource certain positions to low cost providers in other country. Literally today I got asked, "Do I need management approval to increase our standard pricing markups over what we normally charge?" (In other words, the individual wanted to know if they needed to double check if it was okay to charge MORE than our default standard amounts.) 3. What you can do as a millionaire vs. a billionaire.
And this contraceptive thing, my gosh, it's [so] inexpensive. Back in my day, they used Bayer aspirin for contraceptives. The gals put it between their knees and it wasn't that costly. Rick Santorum supporter
This dude is donating millions of dollars to Rick Santorum, literally reshaping the mainstream of political discourse in the Republican party, with the viewpoint that the acceptable viewpoint of sexual education is that women should put a Bayer between their legs and cross them to make sure nobody gets between their legs. The guys a effing Neanderthal but it also a billionare. He matters. Thanks to the fact he's obscenely rich, mainstream public discourse on sex ed includes the term "Cross the biitch's legs to prevent pregnancy". You don't have that power as a mere single millionare.

No, I am assuming that I am capable of not spending money like a drunken idiot. Moreover, the comfortable standard of living, depending on the disposition of the 20-year-old, might be put off in order to live a normal life while interest accrues.

1. Yes, it's orders of the magnitude more money; it's not orders of the magnitude more useful to one person. The fifth yacht isn't nearly as useful.

2. I guess I'm not stupid, but by no means brilliant, or even that far above average. I think I bombed a mechanics of deformable bodies test today.

3. I get that billionaires matter, in terms of influence, far more than millionaires, and their influence more than likely directly scales in proportion to their money; this is an area in which I overlooked the advantage of the billion(s), but in all honesty, this facet is probably not the first thing that people base this decision on.

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coolbeans90

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#228 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"] Qualitative outcomes are not math based. Math is numbers. It has nothing to do with fuzzy feelings.nocoolnamejim

Health, psychological well-being, longevity, are are quantitatively associated with wealth and do suffer from diminishing returns.

Nitpicking my friend. I conceded a while ago that someone living on the streets eating out of dumpsters should ignore the maximizing outcome of the math to take the guaranteed million. I'm not ignoring the things you mention. But someone earning the median income in the US? They should take the pot odds of the 50/50 shot at a billion.

I read this post and replied to it before the other one.

Anyway, it depends. Someone making median income, with student loans, a mortgage, a few kids going to college a decade or two down the road, hasn't saved sh!t for retirement and so forth, might as well go for the million and lock it away for a few decades. Someone who has lived comparatively frugally, maybe already has several hundred thousand dollars packed away and growing, etc, should definitely go for the pot.

Age matters; Someone who is twenty might be better served going for the million than the billion since it has time to accrue interest; conversely, a guy in his thirties, doing well financially, might not make that much of a difference to if he gets another million, but a billion would mean immediate lifetime vacation.

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tocool340

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#229 tocool340
Member since 2004 • 21652 Posts
[QUOTE="anthonycg"]

[QUOTE="hadoken"] owned sir. OWNED!!!!!!!rawsavon

Hardly!

Different situations require different logic. If you look at every situation as black and white then you're going to have big problems down the road. Luckily humans have the ability to adapt to different situations. :P

a million dollars over the course of one's life is not really all that much money (in most bigger US cities) -given inflation, taxes, etc -it will certainly make your life easier -but I would not call it an existence altering amount of money 35% tax bracket, buy a house, invest some...gone pretty quickly ...whereas a billion dollars could alter everything about your life and anyone else you ever dreamed of helping

A million dollars still can go a long way if invested smartly. It can still get me through college and get me on my feet right away when done, especially if I choose a high paying career. It may also be enough to start a small local business. If I go for that billion and lose, I'm pretty sure I'll be regretting it for the rest of my life. Especially if I go to a college that cost 125K or have to pay a car note for the next 4 or 5 years. I'd rather live without knowing I need to pay unnecessary bills than take a risk and get nothing at all....
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#230 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
GS's HTML suckscoolbeans90
The premise of your argument hinges upon three things: 1. That the marginal difference in standard of living is SO PRONOUNCED that $1M is a life changing outcome. 2. Related to the first point: that "comfortable" living is the maximized outcome related to the decision. 3. That the diminishing returns argument vastly overstates the mathematics involved. Really these can be Cliff Notes down to the comment that $1M is SO GREAT of a change in marginal quality of life that it defies the mathematics to an incredibly great extent. Where I have a problem with the argument is the order of magnitude. As Raw pointed out earlier, $1M is not as much money as it used to be. It's a big, impressive looking round number, but not nearly as meaningful as it once was. It's like reviewing remakes of Nintendo games. It suffers from the nostalgia factor. $1M is not insignificant, but it isn't the world altering figure it once was when adjusted to inflation and compared to the present day median income.
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coolbeans90

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#231 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]GS's HTML sucksnocoolnamejim
The premise of your argument hinges upon three things: 1. That the marginal difference in standard of living is SO PRONOUNCED that $1M is a life changing outcome. 2. Related to the first point: that "comfortable" living is the maximized outcome related to the decision. 3. That the diminishing returns argument vastly overstates the mathematics involved. Really these can be Cliff Notes down to the comment that $1M is SO GREAT of a change in marginal quality of life that it defies the mathematics to an incredibly great extent. Where I have a problem with the argument is the order of magnitude. As Raw pointed out earlier, $1M is not as much money as it used to be. It's a big, impressive looking round number, but not nearly as meaningful as it once was. It's like reviewing remakes of Nintendo games. It suffers from the nostalgia factor. $1M is not insignificant, but it isn't the world altering figure it once was when adjusted to inflation and compared to the present day median income.

Yes, it's not as much money as it used to be. I didn't live when "it used to be" though, so my conception of a million dollars isn't that it's remotely near enough to retire comfortably at the age of 20.

My argument would be more accurately categorized as follows:

1) The median lifetime earnings of someone currently hovers at ~ $1.5 million (could be totally wrong on that) and a sizable portion of that goes towards fixed living expenses.

2) A 20-year-old could, if the amount was fully invested, could turn the $1 million into well more than $10 million.

3) An additional $10 million of lifetime earnings is enough to make a significant difference in living quality, especially considering what earnings make.

4) Much more money than that, quality of living doesn't improve THAT much. Sure, owning a few dozen yachts is nice and such, but it's not that much better than owning the first one, and there's also the chance that you get no yachts.

5) The difference in living standards which one can acquire from the initial lump sum of $1 million is worth taking rather than gambling on being able to live as a chronic spendthrift for whatever length of time.

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nocoolnamejim

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#232 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
Tyrannical wench that dictates my life is insisting I watch a movie on the couch groping her boobies. I must, with obvious reluctance, comply.
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#233 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
Related to previous post: Beans: Do you mind if we adjourn? We have some fairly opposed viewpoints that probably won't be reconciled tonight, but...damnit...boobs. Come on now.
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#234 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

Related to previous post: Beans: Do you mind if we adjourn? We have some fairly opposed viewpoints that probably won't be reconciled tonight, but...damnit...boobs. Come on now.nocoolnamejim

Only if you promise to scream "beans" upon ejaculation.

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#235 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]Related to previous post: Beans: Do you mind if we adjourn? We have some fairly opposed viewpoints that probably won't be reconciled tonight, but...damnit...boobs. Come on now.coolbeans90

Only if you promise to scream "beans" upon ejaculation.

You only think I'm joking when I agree. We have a deal. You're a gentleman and a scholar. Debate with you later.
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James161324

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#236 James161324
Member since 2009 • 8315 Posts

50/50 is fairly good odds so i have to go for the billion. A million is nice but that wouldn't last forever.

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washnwax

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#237 washnwax
Member since 2011 • 274 Posts

id take the million,500k each for both of my kids.

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tenaka2

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#239 tenaka2
Member since 2004 • 17958 Posts

I'd get a rich invester to give me 5 million based upon the 1 billion chance and repay them 50million if I won.

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#240 markop2003
Member since 2005 • 29917 Posts
I'd take the billion. It's not like I'm desperate for cash so I may as well take a shot at the billion.
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#241 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts

I'd get a rich invester to give me 5 million based upon the 1 billion chance and repay them 50million if I won.

tenaka2
...something like that is probably the best idea mentioned ITT (not sure those figures would work, but I like where your head is at...selling pieces of a potential pie)
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#242 carlandcarl
Member since 2004 • 1251 Posts

I'd like to think I'd do the clever thing and take the million but I might get greedy and try for the billion :P

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#243 The_Gaming_Baby
Member since 2010 • 6425 Posts

No guts, no glory. I'll take the 50/50 chance

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#244 ozspark
Member since 2011 • 348 Posts
million... mo money mo problems?
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#245 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 38683 Posts
go for the billion i guess.. that way when i don't get it hopefully it'll motivate me to make the million :P
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#246 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

I'd get a rich invester to give me 5 million based upon the 1 billion chance and repay them 50million if I won.

rawsavon
...something like that is probably the best idea mentioned ITT (not sure those figures would work, but I like where your head is at...selling pieces of a potential pie)

Indeed. Very nice outside the box thinking here.
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coolbeans90

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#247 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

I'd get a rich invester to give me 5 million based upon the 1 billion chance and repay them 50million if I won.

tenaka2

Best idea ITT, by far.

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imaps3fanboy

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#248 imaps3fanboy
Member since 2009 • 11169 Posts
million
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Messiahbolical-

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#249 Messiahbolical-
Member since 2009 • 5670 Posts
I'm sure anybody out there with a million dollars wishes there was a way to invest all of that money and have as high as 50% chance of turning it into a billion dollars. I'm not sure some of you comprehend how big of a difference a million is to a billion... lol 50% chance of being one of the richest, most powerful men in the whole world? I'll take that ANY day. If you have a million dollars and quit your job while spending like a millionaire, it's gone before you know it. If you have a billion dollars, you will never have to work a day in your life and anything you want in the world is yours and you and your family will never have to worry about money ever again. Hell, your great great grandchildren will never have to worry about money. You're on top of the world.