Game developer wants to know why people pirate his games

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damnod

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#1 damnod
Member since 2008 • 25 Posts

"This is not some silly attempt to start a flamewar, it's not at attempt to change anyones mind about anything. I don't want to argue my side of it, and there is zero ulterior motive. I'm not looking to 'catch' anyone, or prove any points"

http://www.piracyisacrime.org/General/game-developer-wants-to-know-why-people-pirate-his-games.html

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tofu-lion91

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#2 tofu-lion91
Member since 2008 • 13496 Posts
People don't want to pay. Simple as
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OneWingedAngeI

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#3 OneWingedAngeI
Member since 2003 • 9448 Posts
something for nothing is compelling and has been since the dawn of man.
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flipin_jackass

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#4 flipin_jackass
Member since 2004 • 9772 Posts

Soemthing for nothing is definitely a big (probably the biggest) part. But research has also shown that people who pirate software (not limited to games) and music do so because of social influence. Apparently, pirating is the new cool thing in playgrounds. I'd link the research, but it's in a PDF file, and username/password is required to access my college database.

Anyways, I remember in highschool - and this was about 4 years ago - I pulled out a music CD that I bought out of my bag. My classmated were suprised that I actually bought a CD and ridiculed me for wasting money. Apparenly, it was only worth buying CD if it ws going to be a collector's item like Jay-Z's Black album... or whatever the hell he said.

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trakem

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#5 trakem
Member since 2002 • 3859 Posts
People are cheap.
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falconzss

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#6 falconzss
Member since 2005 • 755 Posts

probably because i payed 90 bucks (90 "german mark" which are equal to 47 euro now) for FFX before i had to pay between 59 euro or more (which would be 115 "german mark" by now). games are steadily getting more expensive and that's just one reason.

i personally don't pirate games because i am a collector but i can understand the people that do it and please don't falme with posts like "if you would be working you could afford the game" because this is ridiculous. the would propbably even sell more games if the price tag was 10 bucks lower but that are just my two cents...

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Sins-of-Mosin

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#7 Sins-of-Mosin
Member since 2008 • 3855 Posts
Simple economics.
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Alley-Cat

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#8 Alley-Cat
Member since 2008 • 383 Posts

People don't want to pay. Simple astofu-lion91

Exactly

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eyerok

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#9 eyerok
Member since 2004 • 10782 Posts
Simple economics.Sins-of-Mosin
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YourChaosIsntMe

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#10 YourChaosIsntMe
Member since 2007 • 1228 Posts

Simple economics.Sins-of-Mosin

Actually, it's quite the opposite. There's no such thing as "simple economics" anyway. ;)

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thusaha

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#11 thusaha
Member since 2007 • 14495 Posts

[QUOTE="tofu-lion91"]People don't want to pay. Simple asAlley-Cat

Exactly

Agree.
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Sins-of-Mosin

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#12 Sins-of-Mosin
Member since 2008 • 3855 Posts

[QUOTE="Sins-of-Mosin"]Simple economics.YourChaosIsntMe

Actually, it's quite the opposite. There's no such thing as "simple economics" anyway. ;)

To me it's quite simple: Product A is free while Product B has a cost. People who have the means to get both will aquire Product A.

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69ANT69

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#13 69ANT69
Member since 2007 • 8472 Posts

People don't want to pay. Simple astofu-lion91

Agreed

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Dollar75

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#14 Dollar75
Member since 2006 • 718 Posts

something for nothing is compelling and has been since the dawn of man.OneWingedAngeI

Hit the nail on the head there.

However, one could also argue that for years, developers, movie makers etc have had the upper hand as they could charge whatever they wanted. Now we're in a digital age where piracy is accessible to every person, the power has swung to the consumer.

I've never been a believer in piracy of games, I am a collector, same as with movies, but not everyone is in that financial position to make that choice.

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DraugenCP

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#15 DraugenCP
Member since 2006 • 8486 Posts

[QUOTE="OneWingedAngeI"]something for nothing is compelling and has been since the dawn of man.Dollar75

Hit the nail on the head there.

However, one could also argue that for years, developers, movie makers etc have had the upper hand as they could charge whatever they wanted. Now we're in a digital age where piracy is accessible to every person, the power has swung to the consumer.

I've never been a believer in piracy of games, I am a collector, same as with movies, but not everyone is in that financial position to make that choice.

You make a good point. Take CDs and DVDs for instance. How many times can they sell you the same product? First we had VHS, then came DVD along with all the limited, digitally remastered, collectors etc. edition, and now they've invented BluRay for the sole purpose on making us pay more money for largely the same collection of movies again, and this will always continue. Now if I copy a DVD and am considered a thief, they must be organized criminals. Exactly the same goes for music, with remastered versions, special editions, limited editions, bonus tracks. I'm not feeling in the slightest bit sorry for those industries.

Games are a bit of a different story however, as I think the 50 euros I usually pay for Wii games is a very reasonable price, and like other people have said, I'm a collector so I'm not really into downloading anything.

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Cilindro

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#16 Cilindro
Member since 2008 • 60 Posts

I agree that not everyone can afford a collector's edition DVD and that the entertainment companies sometimes take advantage of re-releasing old movies (Disney). But it is important to remember that when we pirate anything, we are hurting the industry that made the product. I heard in a news report that the music industry loses 12 billion dollars a year from piracy. That means that fewer artists can be signed and distributed due to less capital. They also have to be sure bets with music generic and dumbed down enough for a large demographic to enjoy (Hi Souja Boy!). When we take something for free we fail to see that were killing off the thing that we love.

Piracy is killing off the PC gaming scene, right now. It motivating long time PC developers to consoles.Soon all we'll have on the PC console is WOW and online game.

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leper-messiahs

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#17 leper-messiahs
Member since 2008 • 399 Posts

I agree that not everyone can afford a collector's edition DVD and that the entertainment companies sometimes take advantage of re-releasing old movies (Disney). But it is important to remember that when we pirate anything, we are hurting the industry that made the product. I heard in a news report that the music industry loses 12 billion dollars a year from piracy. That means that fewer artists can be signed and distributed due to less capital. They also have to be sure bets with music generic and dumbed down enough for a large demographic to enjoy (Hi Souja Boy!). When we take something for free we fail to see that were killing off the thing that we love.

Piracy is killing off the PC gaming scene, right now. It motivating long time PC developers to consoles.Soon all we'll have on the PC console is WOW and online game.

Cilindro

Load of Bull, Pc game market is GROWING, all official sales figures show that and there are currently a tonne of great PC only games in development, and many more multi-platform games. Pc has the strongest lineup of all the platforms.

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DOS4dinner

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#18 DOS4dinner
Member since 2008 • 1072 Posts

Piracy drives me nuts. I hate seeing people who have pirated anything, games espescially. It just annoys me when I know that a group of programmeres worked their fingers to the bone making this game, only to have it played by someone that does not care about them at all. Even if it is an ancient DOS game you can only find used, it still does not give you the right to steal it. I proudly have all 100% legal DOS games, either they have been made freeware or I have the ancient 12 year old CD the game came on back in the olden days.

Personally, I always see it as "Ok, if I made this game, put millions into it, and finally finished it would I want people stealing it? No. I don't." As such, I return the favor to every game developer and artist out there.

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Poshkidney

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#19 Poshkidney
Member since 2006 • 3803 Posts
[QUOTE="YourChaosIsntMe"]

[QUOTE="Sins-of-Mosin"]Simple economics.Sins-of-Mosin

Actually, it's quite the opposite. There's no such thing as "simple economics" anyway. ;)

To me it's quite simple: Product A is free while Product B has a cost. People who have the means to get both will aquire Product A.

yes but product A damages the economy as it gives nothing back. The people who buy pirated goods are the people who don't care about the industry but the prices are getting silly nearly fifty pounds i've seen some titles fifty UK pounds bloody hell no wonder .

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CarnageHeart

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#20 CarnageHeart
Member since 2002 • 18316 Posts
[QUOTE="Dollar75"]

[QUOTE="OneWingedAngeI"]something for nothing is compelling and has been since the dawn of man.DraugenCP

Hit the nail on the head there.

However, one could also argue that for years, developers, movie makers etc have had the upper hand as they could charge whatever they wanted. Now we're in a digital age where piracy is accessible to every person, the power has swung to the consumer.

I've never been a believer in piracy of games, I am a collector, same as with movies, but not everyone is in that financial position to make that choice.

You make a good point. Take CDs and DVDs for instance. How many times can they sell you the same product? First we had VHS, then came DVD along with all the limited, digitally remastered, collectors etc. edition, and now they've invented BluRay for the sole purpose on making us pay more money for largely the same collection of movies again, and this will always continue. Now if I copy a DVD and am considered a thief, they must be organized criminals. Exactly the same goes for music, with remastered versions, special editions, limited editions, bonus tracks. I'm not feeling in the slightest bit sorry for those industries.

Games are a bit of a different story however, as I think the 50 euros I usually pay for Wii games is a very reasonable price, and like other people have said, I'm a collector so I'm not really into downloading anything.

Nobody puts a gun to your head and makes you rebuy old movies. Your Die Hard dvd works just as well post-Blu Ray as it does pre-Blu Ray.

I can't feel the slightest bit sorry for someone who states that its okay to steal luxuries if they can't afford them. I can't afford a Ferrari, that doesn't make it okay for me to break into a dealership and steal one.

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MysticGenie

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#22 MysticGenie
Member since 2005 • 1358 Posts
The crux of the issue is that pirates offer a superior product.

This product is - in most cases - identical to the original game, but it also
- runs with no hassles after delivery
- has no restrictions on how many computers you can install it on
- does not require you to prove that you have the right to use it

It is also delivered right onto your computer at broadband speed. You don't even need to go through the hassle of getting down to the store.

While the pirated product might be incompatible with software patches, the pirated updates are usually out fast enough to make this minor inconvenience a non-issue.

In short, you have a competitor, which will always have the same offer you do, only better in terms of customer experience.

This is not a competition you can win.

Multiplayer games can create additional utility, which pirates cannot copy. Single-player games do not have that luxury.
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Dollar75

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#23 Dollar75
Member since 2006 • 718 Posts

Nobody puts a gun to your head and makes you rebuy old movies. Your Die Hard dvd works just as well post-Blu Ray as it does pre-Blu Ray.

I can't feel the slightest bit sorry for someone who states that its okay to steal luxuries if they can't afford them. I can't afford a Ferrari, that doesn't make it okay for me to break into a dealership and steal one.

This is true, but its also a case of keeping up with the jones's in this day and age too and, the view that its not stealing because there's no break and enter per se, is rife. This doesn't make it right I know.

But the ironic thing of copyright is that its always been illegal to copy anything, even record stuff off the radio onto tape, off the TV onto VHS, and yet we have a record button and MP3 players. What do they expect people to do?

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Alter_Echo

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#24 Alter_Echo
Member since 2003 • 10724 Posts

People pirate software because it is rarely worth the asking price. I mean $60 for a game that i can beat in 4 hours? $20 for a cd with 2 good songs on it? give me a break. The amount of games that come out that are actually WORTH the cost of admission is staggeringly low.

Music isnt so much an issue now with the advent of "per song" charges from places like itunes and whatnot. Games however are still a major issue. They all sell at the console's set point regardless of how much more one game gives you versus another.

I am of the opinion that charging someone $60+ for minimal content or substandard content just because the other games on that system are the same price is just as much theft as if i downloaded it illegally.

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paul999

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#25 paul999
Member since 2003 • 240 Posts

Why pay when you can get it free?

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freshgman

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#26 freshgman
Member since 2005 • 12241 Posts

People don't want to pay. Simple astofu-lion91

or they cannot afford it

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Crystall3d

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#27 Crystall3d
Member since 2005 • 397 Posts

DEMOS dont serve well as they dont iron out the game as much as the demo level , the full game dont maintain that quality

another issue is if i pay 50 bucks , i begin to look for bugs , design flaws , bad acting or story telling...

A 60$ game should not crash or freeze , it can only if it is pirated

so far only uncharted could earn approval from ME , burnout is running up as second once they implement a good expansion including motorbikes and trophies.

all others like assassin creed,mgs4 , bad company , colin-dirt , fifa2008 , heavenly sword , granturismo prologue, condemned bloodshot 2 ,etc... WERE NOT WORTH my 50 bucks...20$ tops

btw piracy keeps me interested , i can try out whole new games without much demand ,

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Dollar75

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#28 Dollar75
Member since 2006 • 718 Posts

In regards them freezing or crashing, I do agree. In Aus, we pay $120 for a new game.

However, i would have to disagree with Assassins Creed. I paid $120 for that game and I played on it for about 40 hours, I enjoyed it and took my time on it. $120 divided by 40 means I spent $3 an hour to be entertained.

I think thats good value

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Crystall3d

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#29 Crystall3d
Member since 2005 • 397 Posts

i was planning to play it further too , untill i saw that ,i can throw every guard in the entire city off-a cliff by spamming the buttons...that altered my fun per hours equilbrum but anyways i am happy for you

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Grammaton-Cleric

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#30 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts

The crux of the issue is that pirates offer a superior product.

This product is - in most cases - identical to the original game, but it also
- runs with no hassles after delivery
- has no restrictions on how many computers you can install it on
- does not require you to prove that you have the right to use it

It is also delivered right onto your computer at broadband speed. You don't even need to go through the hassle of getting down to the store.

While the pirated product might be incompatible with software patches, the pirated updates are usually out fast enough to make this minor inconvenience a non-issue.

In short, you have a competitor, which will always have the same offer you do, only better in terms of customer experience.

This is not a competition you can win.

Multiplayer games can create additional utility, which pirates cannot copy. Single-player games do not have that luxury.MysticGenie

No, the crux of the issue is that people are callow and thrifty and generally lacking in character so they opt to take for free what they should be paying for and use flimsy justifications to assuage their guilt.

Assuming of course they are human enough to actually feel guilt over their thieving actions.

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Grammaton-Cleric

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#31 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts

People pirate software because it is rarely worth the asking price. I mean $60 for a game that i can beat in 4 hours? $20 for a cd with 2 good songs on it? give me a break. The amount of games that come out that are actually WORTH the cost of admission is staggeringly low.

Music isnt so much an issue now with the advent of "per song" charges from places like itunes and whatnot. Games however are still a major issue. They all sell at the console's set point regardless of how much more one game gives you versus another.

I am of the opinion that charging someone $60+ for minimal content or substandard content just because the other games on that system are the same price is just as much theft as if i downloaded it illegally.

Alter_Echo

So if you personally think a game is lacking in content or quality, it becomes reasonable to steal it?

So people should only steal mediocre games?

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Grammaton-Cleric

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#32 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts

Why pay when you can get it free?

paul999

Why work an honest job when you can break into somebody else's home, shove a gun in their face, and take with ease what they have worked so hard to earn?

The vast majority of crime is predicated upon the notion of eschewing effort and hard work and rather stealing from those who possess such ethics.

Basically, criminals are parasitic organisms who feed off productive members of society.

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Crystall3d

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#33 Crystall3d
Member since 2005 • 397 Posts

games are expensive ,

i dont like companies like i once did

wont be any worth more than 30$ untill some real VR gadgets are intruduced

basically same feel since 1998,you look at screen and there is a controller so i dont value them

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Crystall3d

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#34 Crystall3d
Member since 2005 • 397 Posts

i wonder when VR googles with position , xyz recognition and 720p support will be added , i would be paying for that

the idea is , gaming is getting old like this and i dont feel like supporting them ,i dont see the light

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YourChaosIsntMe

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#35 YourChaosIsntMe
Member since 2007 • 1228 Posts
[QUOTE="paul999"]

Why pay when you can get it free?

Grammaton-Cleric

Why work an honest job when you can break into somebody else's home, shove a gun in their face, and take with ease what they have worked so hard to earn?

The vast majority of crime is predicated upon the notion of eschewing effort and hard work and rather stealing from those who possess such ethics.

Basically, criminals are parasitic organisms who feed off productive members of society.

You're going down a slippery-slope there. You make a connection between something which is considered illegal due to cultural and economic circumstances and "the vast majority of crime." One of the problems with law is the ingrained nature of law theory in a given society, especially one in which the primary concern is capital gain. While a couple of our peers referred to the exploitative nature of the entertainment industry from the 50's to the 90's, I don't believe that addresses the entire issue because it focuses on us - people in places like England or the U.S. who generally have the income to afford consumer products. You have to consider the fact that the vast majority of piracy, especially in the video game industry, occurs worldwide where many products are not widely available or have exorbitant price tags.

Most crime is predicated upon the notion that no other option exists. Your disposition is one that is exclusively held by the privilaged members of society; crime is not that simplistic, though it appears to be when your grass is greener.

The situation isn't as black and white as you would like it to be...

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Grammaton-Cleric

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#36 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts
[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"][QUOTE="paul999"]

Why pay when you can get it free?

YourChaosIsntMe

Why work an honest job when you can break into somebody else's home, shove a gun in their face, and take with ease what they have worked so hard to earn?

The vast majority of crime is predicated upon the notion of eschewing effort and hard work and rather stealing from those who possess such ethics.

Basically, criminals are parasitic organisms who feed off productive members of society.

You're going down a slippery-slope there. You make a connection between something which is considered illegal due to cultural and economic circumstances and "the vast majority of crime." One of the problems with law is the ingrained nature of law theory in a given society, especially one in which the primary concern is capital gain. While a couple of our peers referred to the exploitative nature of the entertainment industry from the 50's to the 90's, I don't believe that addresses the entire issue because it focuses on us - people in places like England or the U.S. who generally have the income to afford consumer products. You have to consider the fact that the vast majority of piracy, especially in the video game industry, occurs worldwide where many products are not widely available or have exorbitant price tags.

Most crime is predicated upon the notion that no other option exists. Your disposition is one that is exclusively held by the privilaged members of society; crime is not that simplistic, though it appears to be when your grass is greener.

The situation isn't as black and white as you would like it to be...

Actually, most crime really is that simplistic, even after decades of socio-economic theories being espoused and pondered and used as some sort of feeble justification for criminality. The grey areas that some cling to, those precious little theories of economic hardships that forgive moral transgressions by overcomplicating the issues at hand, really are ethereal in nature and barely worth the paper they've been printed on. Such theories make the people who employ them feel enlightened but when such theories are actually applied to a realistic construct, they fall apart in the face of humanity's sheer ugliness and base selfishness.

Now, I'm well aware that copyright laws in many nations are very different than here in the states so obviously, in a place where people have no concept of such laws, calling it a crime really isn't accurate or even fair. But that wasn't really the point of this developer's inquiry or the point of this discussion. Everyone knows that in most third world nations and even some more industrialized places, U.S. and European copyright doesn't extend or protect media and there is no expectation of protection. The issue here is why do members of what you call the "privileged society" opt to take for free what they should be purchasing. The issue of piracy is rampant here in the U.S. despite availability through legal channels of distribution.

The truth is that people take what they want because it's free and there are no consequences. It's easier to steal something than to spend money on it, which is why movies, games and music continue to be traded illegally online, costing their respective industries millions.

As to the notion that all crime is predicated upon a lack of options, that's politically correct nonsense. People have choices and generally know when they are doing something wrong. We can sit here for days and wax intellectual about all the variables and causations that can influence criminality but ultimately, people make choices and those choices, when they entail criminal actions, are usually motivated by selfish gain. Of course there are exceptions and sometimes those exceptions are glaring and make us reconsider the very nature of crime but ultimately, most criminal actions are motivated by base and selfish rationales, rather it be theft of goods and money or the rape of a woman or child.

Your empathetic stance is even harder to swallow when you consider that we are actually discussing the theft of non-essential goods. People don't require videogames to live and prosper yet I've continued to hear others justify theft due to a lack of availability or excessive pricing. Frankly, such logic is more a symptom of our era and indicative of the apathetic manner in which so many people now choose to live their lives: with a shrug and a flimsy bit of justification for amoral behavior. This isn't Victor Hugo's pre-revolution France and these thefts are not the equivalent of a stolen loaf of bread. People don't need a copy of Zelda or Half Life to maintain their existence.

I can agree with you that the issue of crime isn't always black and white but in that same breath I'd assert it's rarely as complicated and grey as you are proposing. You call me privileged despite the fact that I came from a blue collar, working class family and put myself through college to become something more. I'm currently working in the public service as a teacher and while I won't pretend that my salary isn't decent I'm hardly flying out to Paris on the weekends to my villa. I deal with young adults from various socio-economic strata and to be completely honest, it's the kind of grey area mentality you are asserting here that so often gives these kids leave to be mediocre human beings.

I guess the bottom line is that enlightenment must be tempered by common sense because theories and charts and statistics simply won't hold up out there in the big empty of the real world.

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eab444

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#37 eab444
Member since 2004 • 187 Posts
It's the economy, stupid!
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#38 trasherhead
Member since 2005 • 3058 Posts
When game devs start making games that can keep me entertained for more then a few days I'll pay for the game.
And on the pc front there is only Civ 4 that has done so. And that has been bought.
Devs wonder why they lose sales when they release a demo! If their game was good they wouldn't lose sales it would increase. Then why do they lose sales? Because they don't make quality games. And who wants to buy a game that they put in the away after a few days?
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gamingqueen

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#39 gamingqueen
Member since 2004 • 31076 Posts
I'm not ashamed to say that I buy both fake and original copies. Here's why, I believe games are not worth $60. The prices for each game should be in the range of $20-$25. Not all games costs a fortune in order to be made for instance, my friend told me that Team Frotress 2 was originally a half life 2 mod so the cost for making that game is not like Killzone. I doubt paying those 20 bucks instead of 60 will hurt them... it won't make developers rich yeah but won't make them poor either. The outcome of playing videogames is not the same as the outcome of practising other kind of hobbies... name whatever hobby you want but it won't be the same. The audience of videogames is still small compared to other forms of entertainment and is still not as good. Storylines in videogames are still not as good as in books and the same goes to music and cut-scenes. Unless they lower the prices of videogames, people will stil chip their consoles and buy fake copies.
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MarcusAntonius

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#40 MarcusAntonius
Member since 2004 • 15667 Posts
While theft of a product is wrong, downloading something no longer available for retail sale has a somewhat benign feel to it, more so when it has long been out of print. Still trying to weigh the ethics on that. But again, if one feels its wrong, it generally is.
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MarcusAntonius

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#41 MarcusAntonius
Member since 2004 • 15667 Posts

But the ironic thing of copyright is that its always been illegal to copy anything, even record stuff off the radio onto tape, off the TV onto VHS, and yet we have a record button and MP3 players. What do they expect people to do?

Dollar75

No. This was decided in Sony v. Universal back in 1984 which essentially established Fair Use. If I want to make copies for my own personal use, that's my business and my right no matter what the trade associations think.

If anything is illegal, its the copy protection software that violates my Fair Use rights. So then I have to either "illegally" download my backup copy or "illegally" download protection cracking software to produce my own backup.

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MarcusAntonius

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#42 MarcusAntonius
Member since 2004 • 15667 Posts

I heard in a news report that the music industry loses 12 billion dollars a year from piracy.

Cilindro

Sorry friend, that statement doesn't fly. Partly because the recording industry has chosen to force-feed an antiquated business model that is both anti-consumer and overpriced. Second, you can't count sales you wouldn't have gotten in the first place as lost business.

Besides if the losses are incalculable, how did they come up with such an arbitrary figure in the first place?