Dark Souls 2 Speculation Thread - More Accessible, but how could it look?

Hey everyone,

with all the discussion about Dark Souls 2 going on and now that Dark Souls 1 has gained that much interest again, I wonder why there is so few "concrete" speculation about what it could look like to make a game like Dark Souls 2 more accessible, so I thought I just start a thread about it where I put down my ideas, let hear your opinion on them and post your own ideas as well.

So, here I start:

Bonfire Quicktravel: Could imagine they imply this, though I wouldn't be something I like for it makes the tensity of battling through an area obsolete as well as shortcuts, but then again, after you have backtracked the 1000 time it would be good.

Selling / Buying early on: Well, you can anyway do that in Dark Souls but it takes a bit of patience and exploration to do so. Most of the time though I can't really understand why it needs to be hidden away when most of the stuff the merchants have is mere basic stuff anyways.

Easy Mode: Would be a good idea for beginners to explore and learn everything a bit with on screen tutorials and such, the usual action adventure conventions. Maybe it could be made more "unappealing" to the hardcore fans by locking off Trophies in Easy Mode or just let the player play until a certain point in the story where he already has learned all the basics but can only progress in normal mode.

Better organised menus / looting: This is sincerely a mess in Dark Souls, when you want to check what loot an enemy has dropped you also pick it up automatically, thus making your inventory unorganized as hell. Sure, you can buy that bottomless chest at some vendors, but also having to always organize it there is an annoying clumsy process so it would be great to have more clear and indeed accessible options here

Splitting up currency: Maybe they could add in a second currency, not only Souls, but Gold etc. as well, for it's kinda more logical that some stuff is bought with gold and you can have your souls for, let's say only buying magic and level ups, not repairs (which is totally illogical in my opinion) and buying / selling weapons as well, it also would lower the amount of time you waste on grinding for souls, which really can get a bit out of hand after a while. With a good price / item balance one would still have to think about what to buy next.

PVP / CoOP restructuring: The basic concept of PVP and CoOp is fine as it is in my opinion, just the way how it's accessed really needs to be improved, let's say you want to help someone with a certain boss because you know that boss well, instead of having to drop down a summon sign and stay in the area aaaaaaaall the time get's pretty boring after a while, sure, you can kill the monsters around while waiting, but after that? Not to mentions the borders of an area aren't always that clear, so go through the wrong door and your summon sign is gone and you can walk aaaaall the way back just to put it down again.

So it would be better to allow the player to put down multiple summon signs that are permanent and won't go away too soon, but instead of being sucked right into the other persons world you would be asked first if you want to travel now. Or rehash the PVP / CoOp all together.


Leaving messages for other players: Would be nice if you could put down your own text instead of just predefined ones or improving the preset ones, for they're not always what you might be looking for and aren't always helpful, for example adding arrows and certain icons to it maybe, for when you reach a text that says "left" it isn't very helpful when you don't now from which side it's to be regarded.

Well, so far, this are my ideas and speculations in what Namco Bandai could do to make Dark Souls 2 more accessible. So, what do you think of these / one of these and what are yours?

i hate all of your ideas

I think they could introduce little changes without compromising much.

Gifts and Sacrifices- I think they could expand on the idea of the gifts that you could choose for your character at the start of the game, and maybe have more of those to choose from throughout the game. Optional sorts of things that could give the player a hand when they need one.

I could also see some sort of sacrifice system come into play.  You could choose to earn 75% of the souls you normally earn in order to avoid invasions, or 50% in order to make bosses have less health.  You could also give up a percentage of your life bar in order to do more damage.  Something like that would seem more balanced than seperate difficulty modes.

Open up more gradually - Another thing would be to start the game more linear and then open it up further into the game.  My friends that have played it can't seem to make it past Firelink Shrine because they either head down to the New Londo Ruins or they head into the Graveyard.  For some reason, they don't see the path they need to take at the beginning and they get so flustered trying to go places that they can't that they just give up.

Allow for friend invites- This seems like the easiest way to make the game have a more broad appeal.  If you could co-op with your friends at any time, I think a lot more people would be excited to get online and play it.  Personally, I like how it is handled now, but it seems to be a massive turnoff for people that they can't play with their friends and get help when they need help.

More exposition- Don't get me wrong, if you actually talk to the characters in the game, there is plenty of story to be found in Dark Souls and Demon's Souls.  I think there should be more of that.  Have more characters at bonfires.  Still make talking to them optional, but early in the game make it obvious that these people will tell you things you need to know as well as filling in the story of the world around them.

I think the challenge needs to be the same, and that if there is an easy mode, it needs to be offline.  I don't want someone playing the game on easy and invading my world with amazing equipment, stats, etc and destroying me without having earned any of the gear/spells that they are using.  

i hate all of your ideas

Flubbbs

dark souls is fine how it is

dark souls is fine how it is

Flubbbs

honestly, i don't think dark souls could be made more accessible without sacrificing what it is. make it easier and a lot of the systems and major aspects of the fiction fall apart. make the story more direct and it comes off as a compromise with no value to anybody actually willing to invest themselves in the game.

yeah, i'll wait until there are firm details, but i've already accepted that it may not be the game for me anymore.

Be a little more reasonable. The curse status was just way too much, that turned me off to one of my invested in characters. So I started a new one and was off to a great start. I had nearly 20k souls, and six or so humanity with an unleveled character, I went to take out Havel and got killed. Not surprised. I went back, got my dead drop, got killed again. I went back yet again, got my dead drop back, and right as I was killed again after getting him very close to death I had a power loss. Ok, no biggie, the power comes back on very soon after, I boot up and reload my save. I'll just go back, get my dead drop again, and run away from him. It spawned me right back in front of Havel, my dead drop just a foot away or so, and he immediately smacked me down, dead.  Hours of progress erased.

The game apparently thought I had rage quit or something, and was trying to punish me. I just couldn't bear that insult, and sold the game and didn't look back. No game should dis-respect my time invested like that. Basically, From Software is trying too hard, they need to let the challenge be more organic, and less artificial.

I never played Dark Souls because I hear it enjoys erasing all your XP progress in an instantBlack_Knight_00

It sounds unforgiving, but it isn't bad in practice.rragnaar

I think the best thing they could do is make a better tutorial. The Souls games have never had good tutorials. The most they do is explain the controls to you, never giving you a single pointer in regards to the act of playing them. Helping new players understand the concepts earlier would go a long way toward getting them acquainted.

An easy mode would pretty much ruin the identity of the series. The difficulty is what makes these games brilliant. Without it, they would be mediocre action games. I think accessibility is gonna manifest in ways solely to help people understand how to play these games. It's the only way to make it more acceesible without sacrificing everything that makes this series what it is.

Open up more gradually- Another thing would be to start the game more linear and then open it up further into the game. My friends that have played it can't seem to make it past Firelink Shrine because they either head down to the New Londo Ruins or they head into the Graveyard.  For some reason, they don't see the path they need to take at the beginning and they get so flustered trying to go places that they can't that they just give up.rragnaar

They've already mentioned something about that, if I'm not mistaken.

[QUOTE="rragnaar"]It sounds unforgiving, but it isn't bad in practice.SulIy

honestly, i don't think dark souls could be made more accessible without sacrificing what it is. make it easier and a lot of the systems and major aspects of the fiction fall apart. make the story more direct and it comes off as a compromise with no value to anybody actually willing to invest themselves in the game.

yeah, i'll wait until there are firm details, but i've already accepted that it may not be the game for me anymore.

LoG-Sacrament

This is why I'm opposed to a so-called "easy mode". Without the challenge, the fear that whatever is around that next corner could be the end of you, that's what makes the games great. Making it some kind of hack-and-slash without any difficulty would completely destroy what the Souls games are about. 

Can people just admit that not every game should be accessible to everyone? I see people (not necessarily on this particular forum, but in general) complaining about how easy games have become, how accessibility has changed the market into nothing but mindless shooters - and then I see some of those same people complaining about how Dark Souls should have an easy mode to let more people enjoy the experience. 

I'm sorry if I come off as arrogant, but by trying to appeal to everyone you usually end up with a mediocre game, not a great one. I don't want to see the most unique series this generation get destroyed because some people didn't like the challenge the previous games have posed. 

I really wouldn't mind if Dark Souls 2 made it easier to co-op with friends should you want to do that. The idea seems to really be looked down upon whenever I see it discussed in the Souls community, but I have no problem if people want to play through an entire game with friends if they allow it. Yeah, I know it can and probably will ruin some of the immersion and sense of discovery if you just plow through everything with a buddy, but it's the player's decision.

I would still like to explore the environments at my own pace before opting to assist other players.That's one of my favorite things about playing through Demon's/Dark Souls, only it worked much better in Demon's Souls. I was able to play through Demon's entirely through co-op, and it was a ton of fun to do, though setting it up and communicating took some effort, and I was less successful in Dark due to its P2P networking thing making it less consistent.

That's really it for now. I really want them to keep the minimalist way they've been doing things, and to not compromise the challenge too much. Little in the way of cut-scenes, and letting the environments and NPCs to give you the story and background lore. It's gamey and challenging in a good way to me. A better tutorial would help, definitely, and better organization of the inventory system. I am fine with Demon's Souls inventory management in that regards. I just don't want the formula to be changed too much, if they're thinking of doing that at all.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]I never played Dark Souls because I hear it enjoys erasing all your XP progress in an instantrragnaar

dark souls is fine how it is

Flubbbs

No it's not. The game may be challenging, but it can be extremely frustrating. I still find it hard to believe that people tell me it's an easy game when it's not.

[QUOTE="Flubbbs"]

dark souls is fine how it is

Metamania

No it's not. The game may be challenging, but it can be extremely frustrating. I still find it hard to believe that people tell me it's an easy game when it's not.

[QUOTE="Metamania"]

[QUOTE="Flubbbs"]

dark souls is fine how it is

rragnaar

No it's not. The game may be challenging, but it can be extremely frustrating. I still find it hard to believe that people tell me it's an easy game when it's not.

Then they need to include Easy Mode in the next game and leave that for gamers like myself, who do want a fighting chance. If there are others, such as yourself, that do deserve that awesome challenge that you found in Demon's Souls and now Dark Souls, that should be left up in the other difficulties as well. All I'm saying is that there needs to be a given for fair chance. I understand Black_Knight when he talks about being punished constantly. How exactly is being punished constantly fun? I know that you are suppose to learn from trial and error, but I think it's a bit overdone to death with the punishment aspect of the game.

[QUOTE="rragnaar"][QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]I never played Dark Souls because I hear it enjoys erasing all your XP progress in an instantBlack_Knight_00

@meta- The thing is that the combat system is very basic. There is no trial and error there. I want to see video of people struggling with the game so that I understand. I have a suspicion that people are going to the wrong areas at the wrong time and then bashing their head against a wall instead of trying a new area and seeing if they have better luck. Admittedly I'm a frog in a boiling pot. Demon's Souls acclimated me to the series and for me anything less than what it is in terms of challenge is now easy. I feel like easy mode is hopping on the forums and finding out where to go next, or what equipment to improve and what skills to level. There is a huge community of fans waiting to help anybody that has a hard time with the game.

It rewards patience, and I don't mean that in the sense that you should sit there and be punished and just do it over and over. I mean that the game rewards moving slow and paying attention to what's in front of you before you are dead. Once you learn the basics of locking on, keeping your shield up and only lowering it when you know you've got an open window to attack, the challenge lessens considerably. Luring enemies out with ranged attacks helps with that too. It is a game that wants you looking at the enemies that are directly in front of you and paying attention to their patterns. The AI in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls is beyond stupid. They all have predictable patterns and the game asks you to learn them.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="rragnaar"] If you die, you lose the souls you were carrying, but if you can make it back to where you died, you get them back. It sounds unforgiving, but it isn't bad in practice.Justforvisit

Then they need to include Easy Mode in the next game and leave that for gamers like myself, who do want a fighting chance. If there are others, such as yourself, that do deserve that awesome challenge that you found in Demon's Souls and now Dark Souls, that should be left up in the other difficulties as well. All I'm saying is that there needs to be a given for fair chance. I understand Black_Knight when he talks about being punished constantly. How exactly is being punished constantly fun? I know that you are suppose to learn from trial and error, but I think it's a bit overdone to death with the punishment aspect of the game.Metamania

An easy mode destroys the whole point of the game, though. What satisfaction is there in no challenge? Futhermore, the game is designed around its difficulty such that it would have undergo a massive change to accomadate an easy mode. Anor Londo and its arhcers wouldn't be any easier to get past if the difficulty were turned down. Only way to make that easier is to remove it entirely -- which defeats the whole purpose of that encounter in the first place. As it stands, without the challenge, the games are unremarkable at best. They have interesting lore, but it too is just as inaccessible as the games currently are.

The high level of difficulty is what makes these games what they are. Remove that and you might as well make a different game altogether. They aren't that hard to learn if you just accept that you have to play by its rules. And, hell, even if you do get stuck, there are literally thousands -- millions -- of people ready who are more than happy to help. You make it sound as though the games are next to impossible when they are far from it. Punishing, yes -- but even that's overcome by learning how to play.

Bonfire Quicktravel: I can get behind this if it functions in a similar manner to the Lord Vessel in the first game, meaning, that it has specific areas you can travel to and from instead of just zipping all over the map. Perhpas they can even incorporate the Lord Vessel as part of the story early on so it continues to make sense lore wise. 

Selling / Buying early on: I can agree with this too. Hell, I'd even make an argument for the option to sell your souls when it isn't completely worthless. Most of the time if I picked up a duplicate item I'd just drop it since Frampt is worthless.

Easy Mode: Personally, I don't want it. Taking away the difficulty takes away part of the fun Dark Souls offers. Too many games hold your hand these days and I like one where I'm fighting a giant, intimidating boss that's actually a threat. The difficulty adds to the atmosphere and the complete despair that it's trying to go for. I still hold that Demon's Souls and Dark Souls aren't even that difficult where people make them to be these evil, unbeatable things. I like that it rewards my patience and skill. If I wanted a flashier game where I can take on giant beasts and hordes of enemies with no problem, I'll pop in God of War. Still, I guess if more people get to experience the game that I love and it makes more fans, it can't be that bad right? I get it, don't want it personally, but hey, the more the merrier.

Better organised menus / looting: Yeah, the menues suck. Agreed.

Splitting up currency: I think the soul currency is about perfect the way it is. Souls are really the only functioning thing in the world and that's all any body wants for good reason. Adding gold or the like suggests there's a functioning government or some reason to want gold, and there isn't. At least everyone has a reason for desiring souls.

PVP / CoOP restructuring: I would love it if they made a Co-Op invite system that, when playing with someone you actually know, significantly changes the game by changing enemy patterns, positioning, and increases the difficulty. Instead of it being the same game completely over, it could up the challenge for the appropriate amount of players. If you summoun, like previous games, it would function the same. However, increase the range to allow you to do things while waiting to be summouned. PVP works fine, in my opinion, but I would like the Covenants to have a bit more specifics in game to what they actually do. I was part of three different Covenants throughout one playthrough and since I was avoiding the internet I had no fvcking idea what any of them did. 

Leaving messages for other players: I'm absolutely against being able to put down your own text. Screw that. You'd be running around the world with a constant "lolz boobies" written everywhere, and that'd get annoying. The symbol idea is kinda neat though.

@meta- The thing is that the combat system is very basic. There is no trial and error there. I want to see video of people struggling with the game so that I understand. I have a suspicion that people are going to the wrong areas at the wrong time and then bashing their head against a wall instead of trying a new area and seeing if they have better luck. Admittedly I'm a frog in a boiling pot. Demon's Souls acclimated me to the series and for me anything less than what it is in terms of challenge is now easy. I feel like easy mode is hopping on the forums and finding out where to go next, or what equipment to improve and what skills to level. There is a huge community of fans waiting to help anybody that has a hard time with the game.

It rewards patience, and I don't mean that in the sense that you should sit there and be punished and just do it over and over. I mean that the game rewards moving slow and paying attention to what's in front of you before you are dead. Once you learn the basics of locking on, keeping your shield up and only lowering it when you know you've got an open window to attack, the challenge lessens considerably. Luring enemies out with ranged attacks helps with that too. It is a game that wants you looking at the enemies that are directly in front of you and paying attention to their patterns. The AI in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls is beyond stupid. They all have predictable patterns and the game asks you to learn them.

rragnaar

I know that it rewards patience, but too many deaths for me and I'm done with it. However, I'll make sure to keep your advice in mind the next time I try out Dark Souls or even Demon's Souls.

I have to echo rraganaar and rake's sentiments here. Removing the difficulty would make the game more akin to the easier, more linear RPG and Action games already out there. Dark Souls stands out because it's different. Challenging? Definitely. But it's a game that does challenge right in almost every encounter. Every uphill battle or tough enemy can be overcome with patience and preparation. Obviously, that level of patience will vary from player to player, but I really believe that once you get your head around the game's mechanics, it's actually not that difficult. In all honesty, after multiple playthroughs of the game, most of my deaths come from accidental falls rather than actual combat.

Getting your progress back can feel too punishing at times, yes. But there are ways around that. You can make things easier for yourself by choosing co-op, which more often than not nets you a good amount of souls. Combat is really straightforward. With enough skill, you can block/evade just about every source of damage in the game, but really all you need to do is keep your defenses up and strike when you find a break in the enemies' patterns. Later on in the game, you'll find yourself backstabbing every baddie you see without much effort.

I'd prefer the Souls games stay the way they are, because the're are'nt really that many games out there that play similarly. Despite that, I think it makes sense to have story elements more accessible, and maybe have a better tutorial for players with less experience if they're looking to get more players involved. (Although, as someone who loves Metroid, I rather like the whole bare bones "Here! Big world! Go explore!" approach.)

[QUOTE="Metamania"]Then they need to include Easy Mode in the next game and leave that for gamers like myself, who do want a fighting chance. If there are others, such as yourself, that do deserve that awesome challenge that you found in Demon's Souls and now Dark Souls, that should be left up in the other difficulties as well. All I'm saying is that there needs to be a given for fair chance. I understand Black_Knight when he talks about being punished constantly. How exactly is being punished constantly fun? I know that you are suppose to learn from trial and error, but I think it's a bit overdone to death with the punishment aspect of the game.c_rake

An easy mode destroys the whole point of the game, though. What satisfaction is there in no challenge? Futhermore, the game is designed around its difficulty such that it would have undergo a massive change to accomadate an easy mode. Anor Londo and its arhcers wouldn't be any easier to get past if the difficulty were turned down. Only way to make that easier is to remove it entirely -- which defeats the whole purpose of that encounter in the first place. As it stands, without the challenge, the games are unremarkable at best. They have interesting lore, but it too is just as inaccessible as the games currently are.

The high level of difficulty is what makes these games what they are. Remove that and you might as well make a different game altogether. They aren't that hard to learn if you just accept that you have to play by its rules. And, hell, even if you do get stuck, there are literally thousands -- millions -- of people ready who are more than happy to help. You make it sound as though the games are next to impossible when they are far from it. Punishing, yes -- but even that's overcome by learning how to play.

I can tell that a lot of people like to see Dark Souls as a game they can keep in their back pocket, the kind of game that no one wants to mess or touch with. Truth is, though, that challenge you love about it is what drives a lot of people away from it. That's why I've heard the creators say that they wish to include an Easy Mode in there, to make the game more accessible and to bring more gamers into the game's universe and all. I honestly don't see how it is a bad thing. Would it ruin the reputation a bit because of how the games were originally created and meant for? Sure, I understand that, but you gotta remember, not all of us have infinite patience either. I certainly didn't have patience when I tried out Dark Souls and didn't get far. I'd like to get really far in my games until I get stuck with something, come back to it in a few days, try again until that obstacle is overcome.

People tell me about the AI and how stupid it can be. I think I can believe that, but I'll need more time with the game before I can see that.

I'd like a better multiplayer interaction with people you know - in the first, I always had a mildly hard time to manage to summon a friend of mine, as ally or foe. That's the only thing I want.

[QUOTE="c_rake"]

[QUOTE="Metamania"]Then they need to include Easy Mode in the next game and leave that for gamers like myself, who do want a fighting chance. If there are others, such as yourself, that do deserve that awesome challenge that you found in Demon's Souls and now Dark Souls, that should be left up in the other difficulties as well. All I'm saying is that there needs to be a given for fair chance. I understand Black_Knight when he talks about being punished constantly. How exactly is being punished constantly fun? I know that you are suppose to learn from trial and error, but I think it's a bit overdone to death with the punishment aspect of the game.Metamania

An easy mode destroys the whole point of the game, though. What satisfaction is there in no challenge? Futhermore, the game is designed around its difficulty such that it would have undergo a massive change to accomadate an easy mode. Anor Londo and its arhcers wouldn't be any easier to get past if the difficulty were turned down. Only way to make that easier is to remove it entirely -- which defeats the whole purpose of that encounter in the first place. As it stands, without the challenge, the games are unremarkable at best. They have interesting lore, but it too is just as inaccessible as the games currently are.

The high level of difficulty is what makes these games what they are. Remove that and you might as well make a different game altogether. They aren't that hard to learn if you just accept that you have to play by its rules. And, hell, even if you do get stuck, there are literally thousands -- millions -- of people ready who are more than happy to help. You make it sound as though the games are next to impossible when they are far from it. Punishing, yes -- but even that's overcome by learning how to play.

I can tell that a lot of people like to see Dark Souls as a game they can keep in their back pocket, the kind of game that no one wants to mess or touch with. Truth is, though, that challenge you love about it is what drives a lot of people away from it. That's why I've heard the creators say that they wish to include an Easy Mode in there, to make the game more accessible and to bring more gamers into the game's universe and all. I honestly don't see how it is a bad thing. Would it ruin the reputation a bit because of how the games were originally created and meant for? Sure, I understand that, but you gotta remember, not all of us have infinite patience either. I certainly didn't have patience when I tried out Dark Souls and didn't get far. I'd like to get really far in my games until I get stuck with something, come back to it in a few days, try again until that obstacle is overcome.

People tell me about the AI and how stupid it can be. I think I can believe that, but I'll need more time with the game before I can see that.

And then it drives away the people that used to love it...

I don't get this mentality that everything has to be accessible to everyone these days. I really don't. "This drama movie doesn't have enough action in it, this metal music doesn't have enough pop" then move on if it isn't for you.

I'm with the people who feel an easy mode would ruin this game. I've died countless times but only a few of those deaths have actually felt cheap most of them were because I made a mistake and wasnt paying attention or trying to rush something. I hope they realize that an easy mode is a cop out and ditch the idea.

An easy mode destroys the whole point of the game, though. What satisfaction is there in no challenge? Futhermore, the game is designed around its difficulty such that it would have undergo a massive change to accomadate an easy mode. Anor Londo and its arhcers wouldn't be any easier to get past if the difficulty were turned down. Only way to make that easier is to remove it entirely -- which defeats the whole purpose of that encounter in the first place. As it stands, without the challenge, the games are unremarkable at best. They have interesting lore, but it too is just as inaccessible as the games currently are.

The high level of difficulty is what makes these games what they are. Remove that and you might as well make a different game altogether. They aren't that hard to learn if you just accept that you have to play by its rules. And, hell, even if you do get stuck, there are literally thousands -- millions -- of people ready who are more than happy to help. You make it sound as though the games are next to impossible when they are far from it. Punishing, yes -- but even that's overcome by learning how to play.

c_rake

An easy mode (and just removing curse and eleminating dead drop erasing would be enough, because the AI is dumb, as has been mentioned... the "challenge" in this game comes from everything BUT the actual enemies) wouldn't hurt your experience at all, and would make the game more enjoyable for more people.  How that is a bad thing, I have no idea.

I can tell that a lot of people like to see Dark Souls as a game they can keep in their back pocket, the kind of game that no one wants to mess or touch with. Truth is, though, that challenge you love about it is what drives a lot of people away from it. That's why I've heard the creators say that they wish to include an Easy Mode in there, to make the game more accessible and to bring more gamers into the game's universe and all. I honestly don't see how it is a bad thing. Would it ruin the reputation a bit because of how the games were originally created and meant for? Sure, I understand that, but you gotta remember, not all of us have infinite patience either. I certainly didn't have patience when I tried out Dark Souls and didn't get far. I'd like to get really far in my games until I get stuck with something, come back to it in a few days, try again until that obstacle is overcome.

People tell me about the AI and how stupid it can be. I think I can believe that, but I'll need more time with the game before I can see that.

Metamania

I've said it before and I'll say it again: That quote about an easy mode was a mistranslation. Miyazaki's actual quote talked about he wanted to find a way to allow more people to complete Dark Souls without reducing the challenge.

Honestly, why is an easy mode matter to you so much? If you don't enjoy the games as they are, then don't play them. It's as simple as that. You wouldn't want your favorite game series being harmed by the prospect of accessibility, would you?

I got very little satisfaction from the game with the challenge.  Ultimately, we need to admit the game does have some problems, such as my own example from earlier, where the game plainly screwed me over because it's just trying too hard to be artificially challenging, rather than natural challenging.  Frustration and challenge are not the same thing, and in my case it erased HOURS of progress for no good reason at all.  I get that core Souls fans have very certain expectations, but I don't get where any of you start feeling like you can tell others they wouldn't enjoy playing the game any other way than the way you play it.SulIy

What happened to you, exactly?

An easy mode (and just removing curse and eleminating dead drop erasing would be enough, because the AI is dumb, as has been mentioned... the "challenge" in this game comes from everything BUT the actual enemies) wouldn't hurt your experience at all, and would make the game more enjoyable for more people.  How that is a bad thing, I have no idea.SulIy

Yeah -- no. The enemy is just as much of a threat as the environment. It's the two working in concert that makes these games what they are. Anor Londo is about the only place that goes way too far with the challenge (two archers that fire goddamn spears at you as you run up a very small walkway is downright evil). Everywhere else remains fair and managable.

The reason I'm against an easy mode is because you'd have to change a lot about the game to support it. You say it wouldn't affect us, but it would. The challenge is so very closely tied to everything that exists in the game -- the level design, the enemies, the traps -- that just adding an easy mode would disrupt that careful balance. You can't just reverse-engineer these games to include an easy mode willy-nilly. You'd have to make that the priority from the start, which would mean that everything is made with that mode in mind. That would change the entire design of the game for the worse because it wouldn't be the same game.

If they want the series to be more accessible, fine. There are plenty of ways to do that without changing the overall structure of the game for the worse.

Yeah -- no. The enemy is just as much of a threat as the environment. It's the two working in concert that makes these games what they are. Anor Londo is about the only place that goes way too far with the challenge (two archers that fire goddamn spearsat you as you run up a very small walkway is downright evil). Everywhere else remains fair and managable.

The reason I'm against an easy mode is because you'd have to change a lot about the game to support it. You say it wouldn't affect us, but it would. The challenge is so very closely tied to everything that exists in the game -- the level design, the enemies, the traps -- that just adding an easy mode would disrupt that careful balance. You can't just reverse-engineer these games to include an easy mode willy-nilly. You'd have to make that the priority from the start, which would mean that everything is made with that mode in mind. That would change the entire design of the game for the worse because it wouldn't be the same game.

If they want the series to be more accessible, fine. There are plenty of ways to do that without changing the overall structure of the game for the worse.

c_rake

The enemy is stupid. All I had to do was hump Sif and she just got stuck, sometimes even walking in circles. Adding an easy mode would disrupt nothing, if it did, the Devil May Cry games would be a disaster. But I can play Nephilim difficulty on DmC and have a ton of fun and satisfaction, while "core" players can get on Son of Sparda and up and play the game their way and also have fun. Only a bad game developer would insist they can't provide for both groups. As I said earlier, simply doing away with dead drop erasing and curse status would be easy mode enough because of how idiotic the AI is, and the traps and what not are just simple trial and error.

You're basically arguing that From Software can't do the rough equivalent of walking and chewing gum at the same time, I am less of a fan of the most recent Souls game than you are, obviously... but I seem to have far more faith in their abilities as a game developer than you do.

[QUOTE="Metamania"]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: That quote about an easy mode was a mistranslation. Miyazaki's actual quote talked about he wanted to find a way to allow more people to complete Dark Souls without reducing the challenge.

Honestly, why is an easy mode matter to you so much? If you don't enjoy the games as they are, then don't play them. It's as simple as that. You wouldn't want your favorite game series being harmed by the prospect of accessibility, would you?

[QUOTE="SulIy"]I got very little satisfaction from the game with the challenge.  Ultimately, we need to admit the game does have some problems, such as my own example from earlier, where the game plainly screwed me over because it's just trying too hard to be artificially challenging, rather than natural challenging.  Frustration and challenge are not the same thing, and in my case it erased HOURS of progress for no good reason at all.  I get that core Souls fans have very certain expectations, but I don't get where any of you start feeling like you can tell others they wouldn't enjoy playing the game any other way than the way you play it.c_rake

What happened to you, exactly?

An easy mode (and just removing curse and eleminating dead drop erasing would be enough, because the AI is dumb, as has been mentioned... the "challenge" in this game comes from everything BUT the actual enemies) wouldn't hurt your experience at all, and would make the game more enjoyable for more people.  How that is a bad thing, I have no idea.SulIy

Yeah -- no. The enemy is just as much of a threat as the environment. It's the two working in concert that makes these games what they are. Anor Londo is about the only place that goes way too far with the challenge (two archers that fire goddamn spears at you as you run up a very small walkway is downright evil). Everywhere else remains fair and managable.

The reason I'm against an easy mode is because you'd have to change a lot about the game to support it. You say it wouldn't affect us, but it would. The challenge is so very closely tied to everything that exists in the game -- the level design, the enemies, the traps -- that just adding an easy mode would disrupt that careful balance. You can't just reverse-engineer these games to include an easy mode willy-nilly. You'd have to make that the priority from the start, which would mean that everything is made with that mode in mind. That would change the entire design of the game for the worse because it wouldn't be the same game.

If they want the series to be more accessible, fine. There are plenty of ways to do that without changing the overall structure of the game for the worse.

To explain my stance: My enjoyment of the game came as much from exploring the game world as anything else. The "satisfaction" came from finding new areas, because of the great atmosphere. Needing to carefully backtrack to my dead drop, or wandering around with half my health trying to buy what cures curse status/ get to the healer just got in the way. Once I realized how easy the AI was to manipulate, no satisfaction came from that. I could beat up a handicapped kid in a wheel chair, but would that make me feel like a big tough guy?

No, it wouldn't.

I found some big freaky looking cat things in the darkroot area around where you fight Sif. They were tough at first. Then I realized they had a strict area that could go into, and when they reached the limit, they helplessly walked slowly backwards and had to go back to their starting area, leaving them wide open to attack. What satisfaction is there to be found in conquering such a limited enemy? Some can get you the first time you meet them, but then it's simple trial and error. You figure out what their limits are, and they are suddenly no threat at all to you.

My first post in the thread, go back.SulIy

Ah, Havel. That guy's a bastard.

The enemy is stupid. All I had to do was hump Sif and she just got stuck, sometimes even walking in circles. Adding an easy mode would disrupt nothing, if it did, the Devil May Cry games would be a disaster. But I can play Nephilim difficulty on DmC and have a ton of fun and satisfaction, while "core" players can get on Son of Sparda and up and play the game their way and also have fun. Only a bad game developer would insist they can't provide for both groups. As I said earlier, simply doing away with dead drop erasing and curse status would be easy mode enough because of how idiotic the AI is, and the traps and what not are just simple trial and error.

You're basically arguing that From Software can't do the rough equivalent of walking and chewing gum at the same time, I am less of a fan of the most recent Souls game than you are, obviously... but I seem to have far more faith in their abilities as a game developer than you do.

SulIy

It's not a case of not having faith in them -- I'm confident the new directors will handle the series with care -- it's that I'm worried how far this accessibility angle is going to be pushed onto them. Namco Bandai had some part in taking Miyazaki off as director for the series if I'm not mistaken. I believe they've also been the ones to talk about how accessibilty is needed to "evolve the series" or something. Makes me worry that the publisher is getting too hands-on with the project all of a sudden. (Which would be weird, given their "Prepare to die" ad campaign for Dark Souls.)

Dark Souls is already much easier than Demon's Souls. Dark Souls is also a better game because they refined the formula in spectacular ways. I just worry that this pursuit for making things easier will ruin a good deal of what makes the Souls games so appealing to begin with. I really like these games. I don't want to see them change in unsavory ways.

To explain my stance: My enjoyment of the game came as much from exploring the game world as anything else. The "satisfaction" came from finding new areas, because of the great atmosphere. Needing to carefully backtrack to my dead drop, or wandering around with half my health trying to buy what cures curse status/ get to the healer just got in the way. Once I realized how easy the AI was to manipulate, no satisfaction came from that. I could beat up a handicapped kid in a wheel chair, but would that make me feel like a big tough guy?

No, it wouldn't.

I found some big freaky looking cat things in the darkroot area around where you fight Sif. They were tough at first. Then I realized they had a strict area that could go into, and when they reached the limit, they helplessly walked slowly backwards and had to go back to their starting area, leaving them wide open to attack. What satisfaction is there to be found in conquering such a limited enemy? Some can get you the first time you meet them, but then it's simple trial and error. You figure out what their limits are, and they are suddenly no threat at all to you.

SulIy

No offense, but your complains are stupid. Yes, the AI is being lame when it does that - but if you're so bothered by it, have you considered -not- using that strategy to defeat them? Not trying to bug out the enemies, and when they do, blame the developer?

In all three runs, I never ran into a gamebreaking bug - you need to be mildly intelligent (AKA: walk with herbs and curse removals) and, if you don't intentionally try to abuse the monsters, they won't bug out.

i think an easy mode would be great. i never understood why dark souls got so much praise just cuz its hard. other games give you a choice, easy, medium, and hard modes. hell if anything i think that deserves more praise. its not like anyone is losing out, you could still play in hard mode, this way everyone wins. and if they are worried about co-op and pvp balancing and all that, they could do something like decrease the drop rates of certain items significantly in easy mode or something so ppl can't grind their ass off in easy mode to be overpowered online or whatever.

personally i never had a problem with the difficulty. its just the constant backtracking everytime you die. this was the worst part of the game for me. yeah its all fun and stuff when its the 1st time you are going through a level. but then it just becomes tedious and you find yourself doing suicide runs past everything just to get another crack at the boss, especially since the enemies spawn at the same exact place each time.

another thing i think that would kinda be cool is having some enemies fight each other kinda like skyrim. they pretty much do nothing until you come, and then everything charges at you. if its supposed to be such a dark depressing and hostile world, why don't they fight each other too? since when did the undead join in jolly co-operation lol.

other than that fix the obvious things, like the online system. make it easier to play with your friends, and just play online in general instead of waiting around to get into a fight. and for the love of god remove backstabs, or atleast make it so you can't get backstab when you have a massive shield covering your entire back! i mean how ridiculous does it look when a guy in full havels armor gets backstabbed to death by some ninja flipping naked dude with a katana through his big ass shield and all that thick armor.

some more in depth on the story would be great too, or hell just some story at all. these games are rpgs and they barely have any stories.

[QUOTE="Metamania"]

I can tell that a lot of people like to see Dark Souls as a game they can keep in their back pocket, the kind of game that no one wants to mess or touch with. Truth is, though, that challenge you love about it is what drives a lot of people away from it. That's why I've heard the creators say that they wish to include an Easy Mode in there, to make the game more accessible and to bring more gamers into the game's universe and all. I honestly don't see how it is a bad thing. Would it ruin the reputation a bit because of how the games were originally created and meant for? Sure, I understand that, but you gotta remember, not all of us have infinite patience either. I certainly didn't have patience when I tried out Dark Souls and didn't get far. I'd like to get really far in my games until I get stuck with something, come back to it in a few days, try again until that obstacle is overcome.

People tell me about the AI and how stupid it can be. I think I can believe that, but I'll need more time with the game before I can see that.

c_rake

I've said it before and I'll say it again: That quote about an easy mode was a mistranslation. Miyazaki's actual quote talked about he wanted to find a way to allow more people to complete Dark Souls without reducing the challenge.

Honestly, why is an easy mode matter to you so much? If you don't enjoy the games as they are, then don't play them. It's as simple as that. You wouldn't want your favorite game series being harmed by the prospect of accessibility, would you?

Sorry for the mistranlation on my part, but he said something similiar along those lines. Not exactly those exact words per se, but something close to it, so that's on me.

Also, why does an Easy Mode matter to me that much? Because I wish to enjoy the product on my own terms and not on the game's terms! The game asks that you be challenged from start to finish and forces you to die A LOT, even if the intention is that you're supposed to learn. I get that, believe me, but I've died on that game so many times, whether it's my mistakes or the game design's fault, and it made me stop playing. I just want the game to be where it's necessary to die, but not to the extent of where it turns you off from the experience completely. Also, I understand you on the "if you don't like them, don't play them," mentality, but the thing is, perhaps I wasn't ready for Dark Souls at all, at least gaming mentality wise. It's like with music; you hear a band that leaves you completely unprepared, so you take a break from it for a long while. So when you come back, you listen to them in a different perspective and it somehow clicks for you. Same with a lot of songs as well. For example, my favorite band is Metallica and I didn't like their last instrumental, Suicide & Redemption, for the longest while, so I skipped it a lot. Why? Because I wasn't ready for it. Later on, I listened to the song, out of sheer randomness, and it suddenly clicked, so I love the song now. Same thing with Dark Souls or with Demon's Souls; when I'm ready for it again, I will play it and perhaps next time, my opinion will be vastly different than before.

As for your second question, that really depends on the series. Look at my love for the old-school Final Fantasy games, for instance. That's something I understand what you are saying with. It was a series in which got better and better until VIII came around, was revived with IX and X, and is now a complete disaster with the rest that followed afterwards. Then there's other franchises that I love, like Virtua Fighter, that have stayed the same, tweaked in a few improvements, kicked out any weaknesses from it, and made the games better and better. So it really depends on what series you ask me of, C_Rake.

personally i never had a problem with the difficulty. its just the constant backtracking everytime you die. this was the worst part of the game for me. yeah its all fun and stuff when its the 1st time you are going through a level. but then it just becomes tedious and you find yourself doing suicide runs past everything just to get another crack at the boss, especially since the enemies spawn at the same exact place each time.

idunnodude

Wow, just...wow. I've never even heard of anyone doing this. I mean wouldnt you want the souls? Not to mention the revenge or additional practice?

If they introduce an easy mode this is probably what people will do. Run past enemies, kill the boss right quick then run to the window and start shouting to the world how they just beat Dark Souls the hardest game ever.

I weep for the future.

[QUOTE="rragnaar"]

[QUOTE="Metamania"]

No it's not. The game may be challenging, but it can be extremely frustrating. I still find it hard to believe that people tell me it's an easy game when it's not.

Metamania

Then they need to include Easy Mode in the next game and leave that for gamers like myself, who do want a fighting chance. If there are others, such as yourself, that do deserve that awesome challenge that you found in Demon's Souls and now Dark Souls, that should be left up in the other difficulties as well. All I'm saying is that there needs to be a given for fair chance. I understand Black_Knight when he talks about being punished constantly. How exactly is being punished constantly fun? I know that you are suppose to learn from trial and error, but I think it's a bit overdone to death with the punishment aspect of the game.

Game makers should have 100% creative control over their games. If they want their game to be known as a hard game, and don't want to include an easy mode due to artistic integrity, it's their choice and their choice alone. If you don't like hard games, play something else (99.9% of mainstream games are ridiculously easy, that should be enough for you to choose from).

Wow, just...wow. I've never even heard of anyone doing this. I mean wouldnt you want the souls? Not to mention the revenge or additional practice?

If they introduce an easy mode this is probably what people will do. Run past enemies, kill the boss right quick then run to the window and start shouting to the world how they just beat Dark Souls the hardest game ever.

I weep for the future.

MentatAssassin

I beat Demon's Souls, and I didn't brag, because it wasn't hard. I was just bored and had the patience to put up with the trial and error. (not to mention the game was so easily broken) I'm not proud that I beat Demon's Souls, anymore than I am proud that I beat those old Splinter Cell games, all you have to do is memorize the environmental hazards and enemy placement and go through the paces. Now I can spank Demon's Souls while only half paying attention, on the rare occasion I even want to play that game, not because of any special skill on my part at all, just from sheer memorization. If not for getting older and less patient with video games, I could have easily beaten Dark Souls too.

Dark Souls is already much easier than Demon's Souls. Dark Souls is also a better game because they refined the formula in spectacular ways.c_rake

Newcomers to the series (or in my case, people who are seeing a dip in patience with grindfests and trial and error heavy games) see it as harder because they haven't built up the immunity to all the frustrations inherent int he game design. Even some core gamers who beat tough games like the original release of DMC3, God Hand, Bayonetta, NSMBU,and others find Dark Souls off putting, and these people like challenging games. Dark Souls just goes about creating it's challenge in all the wrong ways.

In this thread: God of War is a tough game.

People only think Demon's Souls was harder because it was their first crack at these games.SulIy

True. But Dark Souls didn't have "soul form," which cut your HP by 50%, or pure black world tendency, which is pretty much the worst thing you can come across (black phantoms everywhere -- and extremely powerful ones at that!). By comparison, Dark Souls is a lot more fair.

Newcomers to the series (or in my case, people who are seeing a dip in patience with grindfests and trial and error heavy games) see it as harder because they haven't built up the immunity to all the frustrations inherent int he game design. Even some core gamers who beat tough games like the original release of DMC3, God Hand, Bayonetta, NSMBU,and others find Dark Souls off putting, and these people like challenging games. Dark Souls just goes about creating it's challenge in all the wrong ways.SulIy

You're comparing fast-paced, bombastic action games to a slow, methodical role-playing game. Of course they'd find Dark Souls off-putting! It's an apples and oranges scenario.