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By Johnny Chiodini | @johnneh on July 25, 2014 at 1:50PM PDT
Johnny wades through the very best (and worst) of your comments to find out what's getting the gaming community talking.
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Its fine if carolyn criticizes misogyny being promoted but its ok when homosexuality is promoted?
Seriously, **** you. Seems like you dont want others to criticize the critic for their own beliefs, but its ok when the critic promotes their own personal bias. You cant have your cake and eat it too. Either do away with the bias, or prepare for people to dish out their own.
@ThAdEa82 How is homosexuality promoted? And who gives a shit if it is? You act as if it's a moral issue.
@JBStone1981 @ThAdEa82 profoundly misogynistic and politically muddled ~ totally doesnt sound like a moral view does it ?
@ThAdEa82 When was homosexuality promoted Carolyn?
@hkgsgjholfjkpj @ThAdEa82 He gave Gone Home very high score , which is a cometary on homosexuality .
@hkgsgjholfjkpj being mass murdering psychopath should be something that puts people off yet for some reason people are attracted to suching things . Ja ja "misogony'' shouldn't be promoted by mass murder is kosher , as long as you state that you respect women, minorities and gays while committing atrocities its all good . The reason why Gone Home received high scores was the people were too afraid to down market to be seen as not progresive shits . Eurogamer gave that game 6 . Games are marketed to a specific demographics you fucking idiot , get through your thick skulls video games are not public right and that developers target a different demographics for their product . They dont need to be all encompassing .
Then you'd have a personal bias without any objective thought and that would be a poor point of contention for why a game was good.
@ignis_sulphur @hkgsgjholfjkpj @ThAdEa82 Wait. does Gone Home promote homosexuality or is a character in that game a homosexual? there is a big difference between the two. Does Carolyn show a bias towards the game for that specific reason? As for the review, I saw praise for a games ability to immerse the player thoroughly in a highly detailed and atmospheric game, if that's enough for a 9.5 for Carolyn then so be it. it was enough for an 10 for gamesradar and polygon.
Also remember Misogyny means the hatred of women. that shit shouldn't be promoted. that is a moral judgment. As a community with roughly half of it's gamers being chicks it is likely off-putting to see their gender being portrayed as something to be hated or laughed at and THAT is objectively bad and is fair grounds for criticism.
Homosexuality is not usually promoted in video games... and I imagine a nod for a fair representation of what a homosexual is in video games would mark a milestone in our medium. The ability to show something "controversial" without being crude or hamfisted in its representation is objectively good. that's a fact. Now if a game was given better marks for simply having a homosexual in it, one that in no way enhances the game in any way be it plot or character development or what have you, then you'd have a point.
Johnny - Gone home got a 9.5/10...therefore your argument is irrelevant.
@Moon_V @TomJimJack Wrong! GTA V is for gamers with balls!
Don't give up Johnneh! I love feedbackula and it's best when you focus on the idiots being idiots. Personal attacks against members or employees of gamespot should be left out. Don't give the Bigots a place to shout out loud. I realize you had to address the issue and am glad you did. Hated carolyns review but that's MY problem no body elses.
Johnny after a few moments of reflection there were a few more comments I'd like to make. First to personally attack a professional game reviewer based primarily not on her opinion of the game but on her representation of gender I find not only repugnant but confusing as well. It appears that those attacking Carolyn in this fashion are making the argument that due to the presence or absense of external genitalia she is unqualified to have or state an opinion. Secondly I like to commend you for the ending of your piece in which you question the role that you and 'Feedbackula' have had in this continuing spewing of hate speech on GameSpot. I don't know what the answer is, but I wish you luck on making your decision.
I'd hate to see you drop Feedbackula Johnneh... Got pretty depressing and guilt-trippy there at the end, but I get what you're saying. I wish you'd had shown some comments from the non-hating, serious posters who questioned the review... I know there were a good number amongst the 16k comments or whatever it ended up being.
Gamespot, if you don't want people to ridicule and insult others, why do you have feedbackula, a platform to do just that? Not to mention the fact that you also use it to tell people what their opinions are allowed to be?
@starwarsjunky They don't tell us what our opinions are allowed to be. They're telling us there are limits on how opinions can be expressed.
@Herrick @starwarsjunky ok, i'll agree for the sake of argument. do you also feel that its its ok for them to put up videos for the purpose of ridiculing its users?
Trolling trolls is like throwing gasoline on fire to put it out
The following is a comment I posted in Danny's current segment of "The Point" and I'm posting it here because I believe it to be relevant:
Danny I think you make some excellent observations in this piece. I believe some of the answers to the question, “Why are gamers so angry?” revolve around these two concepts. First is what some people refer to as ‘the death of civility’ and secondly in the inherent anonymity of the Internet itself. Using this anonymity people hide behind screen names and avatars and feel perfectly safe and even justified in spewing out their racist, homophobic, etc. tirades. In a situation in which these individuals would be face to face with the targets of their hatred most would undoubtedly not open their mouths, or at the very least would monitor what they said. I think people need to keep in mind that while its perfectly acceptable and desirable to have a difference of opinion and engage in civil and spirited debate, it in no way confers upon you the right to attack people personally. Also due to the inherent anonymity of the Internet there is very little accountability for one’s actions. When a site like GameSpot attempts to introduce even the slightest level of accountability users shout ‘CENSORSHIP!’ failing to acknowledge that this behavior lead to its necessity.
@TheGlenster The danger of censorship is that the temptation to use it to shun socially unacceptable ideas is very enticing. First the criteria of how the censorship works needs to be clearly defined. I think it is fair and reasonable to use a criteria of vulgarity for example. However this in turn is not always black and white, and in the gray area clever people will find more "offensive" ways to insult or threaten without vulgarity. The problem then is that someone needs to make independent judgments... not always an easy task. Although this is a private website and they are free to do what they see fit. I propose a solution:
To implement a policy where there is a minimal amount of censorship based on a criteria that is as simple and clearly defined as possible. But give visitors the option of viewing the censored comments. Therefore it can be used for those of us that do not want the immature and vulgar comments to clutter quality conversation; and the option still remains if curiosity drives us to see it.
@Jimmy__Needles I don't know if shunning is a danger. It is actually one way society works and regulates its citizens. And I don't mean that in a bad big brother type way. It can be taken to an extreme and we probably all have examples on how it is detrimental in implementation but it can be done well. Letting any type of behavior exist in the ideal of no censorship is anarchy. The reasonable are being drowned out in the loudness of a few and it is starting to look like those few are actually the majority.
@kiriel1962 @Jimmy__Needles We have each brought up two very good schools of thought on this topic. As you stated, "It is actually one way society works and regulates its citizens." - More value placed on the collective than the individual. I say it is citizens that should regulate society.-More value placed on the individual than the collective. Surely each of us can find favorable or unfavorable examples of each, because this is simply a matter of opinion. Although I am curious to see an example from you of how this implementation of censorship can be done well. I too proposed such an idea above.
I also disagree that no censorship equals anarchy. Censorship relates to the sharing/spread of thoughts and ideas. Behavior could still be regulated by government. So the situation would be one where ideas ran freely but actions were penalized. This setup would be far from ideal for me, but it would also be far from anarchy.
In certain situations it may be quite simple to define who the reasonable are versus the loud ones trying to drown them out. In many cases this distinction can only be drawn by the difference of values. Things considered "obscenities" during one time period do not always hold majority opinion through generations. I do agree with you that it is "regulation" that needs to be implemented, not eradication.
@Jimmy__Needles You make an excellent point! The classic problem posed by censorship, no matter how well intended, is the concept of the slippery slope. What constitutes offensive? When do comments cross the line into abuse? Who decides and who watches the watchmen? Your solution has merit, and hopefully you agree with me that something needs to be done.
@TheGlenster @Jimmy__Needles I do agree with you. It is funny that you mentioned the "who watches the watchmen" quote because that specific phrase crossed my mind as I wrote my paragraph. When I was younger I probably would have thought that any censorship was the devil! After some growth and experience I've learned how unfortunate it is when valuable blog venues like gamespot are often riddled with destructive and fruitless comments. It simply takes away from constructive dialogue. I thrive in the sector of argument, and quite honestly think that most people ARE too easily offended. Anger is a part of passion and needs to be heard at times. That being said so much of the gaming community has degraded to (or never upgraded from) a level of tasteless disrespect. Yes we can continue to ignore these irritating comments but they will still be there and it will still be disappointing. I guess I tend to always look at the big picture and as a gamer enthusiast I see how this behavior takes away from the overall community.
So shape up fellow gamers and uphold an image you can be proud of! If that includes the F bomb so be it, but please try to put some thought into it.
Sorry, games should be judged on their gaming merits...not whether or not you agree with the idiology portrayed in them. The criticism in the comments got personal, which is wrong, but some criticism of the reviewer's methods was justified.
That is correct but it got far worse then critiscism of Carolyn. She was told to die in a fire and whatnot and that is not acceptable, even if she had given it a 6 or whatever.
@Hypocorism Freedom of speech? This is a privately owned website! No country in THE WORLD protects your "right" to spout off inanity here. Why don't you READ the laws you are trying to invoke before talking about them...."You keep using that word....I do not think it means what you think it means"
@Hypocorism Except that's wrong, because "tyranny" is specifically used to reference the actions and character of a GOVERNMENT, which this is not. It's a private company who can do and say whatever they want on their own damn site! So, strike 2
The problem with the internet comment box model is that all voices are given equal credence....even the idiotic, grammar-deficient, mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, misogynistic morons. If it took effort to be heard, half the trolls wouldn't bother
Johnny and Feedbackula. At the end of your episode, it got real, very real. It is sad that people are going way to far. I remember when Feedbackula had harmlessly stupid comments like "This gets a 9 while RE6 gets a sh*t score!?". I personally applaud gamespot for one reason, you all have been getting harder on games. It seems gamers don't understand that 7.0 = good game, 8.0 = great game and 9.0 = near perfect game. Just because you all are not handing out 10s isn't a bad thing, if anything you are setting a higher standard for video games. We are all entitled to our own opinions and I personally like seeing the harder reviews, against the floods of 9s and 10s, it gives another point of view to the game in question. I see people saying whats the point of having a 10 on the rating scale if you never use it, on the flip side, what was the point of a 7.0 or even 6.0 if you never use it. GS wasn't being true to their rating system back in the day and I for one and happy you all have been more critical.
As for the rage against the attack on the reviewer, they are noobs, stupid hateful noobs that should open a book, step outside, or even, oh I don't know, realize it is a friggen game? I mean thats all it is, is a game. In two or three years, people won't even be talking about this game any more and move onto the next big title to come out. Stick to your guns guys!
Johnny, perhaps the backlash is the inevitable outrage when you, as in gamespot, decide for the past 5 years or so to use "9" as your "10" for your top review score. The rest of the industry doesn't seem to have trouble awarding 10's to games that achieve the perceived pinnacle of achievement for the media.
In EVERY single case of outrage that I've followed, Gamespot's score has been at the VERY VERY bottom of the meta critic scoring spectrum. Gamespot seems to, without exception, NEVER award a 9.5 or a 10. Meanwhile, the rest of the industry is usually aligned with one another with their scoring AND when to award a 10. Take The Last of Us - I believe there were almost 50 perfect scores...GTAV over 30 perfect scores. You get my point. Why not change your scoring system to: from 1-9...if your NEVER going to award a 10.
This is my only point. I happen to agree with you, mate, on the rest of your points and I too am disgusted with this community. There is NO FUCKING place for personal attacks against reviewers and it disgusts me when it happens. I think very highly of Carolyn Petit and generally find her reviews outstanding with few exceptions (Diablo 3 being one of them...sorry Carolyn :) Her take on GTAV was dead on regarding female characters and depictions thereof. Some of the things I've read from the community aimed towards Carolyn is beyond disgusting and I firmly believe Gamespot needs to take action against such community participants - BAN them from the site for 6 months, disable their accounts, i don't give a damn but do something.
And as far as your weekly show and your feelings about that, I think you are a little upset man. sleep it off - there is a better solution.
Can't wait for the next Caroline review. God I hope it's not Batman!
They clearly should use batgirl
In order for it to be an authentic game about gangsters and mob bosses, please tell me which of those stereo-typically, have an overt respect for women? ... "let's take a minute to think about that"....................................... (yes I had to take a small shot at the video lol)I understand there is a certain stigma attached to portraying women in a certain way, however I would argue that if the characters showed a certain level of compassion to the females, it could mess up the image of the character Rockstar was trying to create. (Authentic)
Also I would argue that taking off a point for that is questionable also. I think what it comes down to are these two questions, "what rating did you give other games" and "what rating did you give the last GTA". As you rated the last GTA 10 out of 10, this game should be 11/10 at least. Although the way women are portrayed in this game is not the most tasteful it could be, I really don't think you could pick up on it and then define it as a "near perfect" game.
I understand most gamers' issues with the rating and I also understand your issues with the comments. I think it's something that needs to be reviewed (the rating of this game) though because it does show a level of inconsistency in the rating system.Peace and Love Yo
@PJAspire well lets just poke through your theories here for starters the review for gta 4 was back years ago things have changed since then so you can't use that argument because its invalid. secondly its not just the fact that women are treated badly its because there no women in all of the game thats treated good, if you wanted to make it "Authentic" then it would be more likely that they wouldn't be treated universally like they do in the game. finally it wasn't just because of being misogynistic it got a point down, in the review they also spoke of the fact that you can get away from the police by just going up a dam hill cause the cops won't follow you and the fact the characters ethnics in game contradicts what they do later on, you may think these are minor but they defeat the point of game.
@PJAspire I concur.
@TheyLeftTheirCA I agree with you. I don't think he meant that it is not artistic. I think he was just trying to say that in order for other critics and the majority of the population to give treat games like art, with respect then maybe Rockstar North should have treated their portrayal of women with respect and not as a caricature of various stereotypes
@fxzero @TheyLeftTheirCA But GTA is built around caricatures and stereotypes, and the focus isn't strictly on women, it's on the American culture and it's outlook on society as a whole. Almost every facet of the game is laced with tongue in cheek critiques and jokes about the people, locations, and lifestyles that inhabit its world.
@BradPoynor looking at your comments it's clear that you have no life except for trolling
@BradPoynor have fun dying a virgin
@BradPoynor I would, I'd also break your right hand, to show you what I'd do to the only woman you'd ever have in the real world. Get a life you troll.
@fxzero @BradPoynor but if you are going to touch his woman with your woman , wouldnt she be commit an act of adultery ?
@fxzero @BradPoynor He is a troll and you are feeding him. Stop. Also please refrain from the internet tough guy shit, both of you, you look ridiculous.
Thank you so much for saying the things that needed to be said. I'm really getting tired of reading comments that are aimed as personal attacks at either the reviewer or girl gamers in general. We are living in the 21st century and these issues need to be addressed, especially since the number of female gamers is increasing. Carolyn did her job in identifying the flaws of Grand Theft Auto 5, flaws that need to be addressed if as you said games ever want to be treated as art, and not just a glorification of masculinity. Next I'm hoping we'll get a female protagonist, but at least GTA Online will let you make a female avatar. My wife is a gamer and if anyone ever told her to get back in the kitchen and make a sandwich like a lot of the comment here, I'm pretty her opinion of gaming would be affected. I've always trusted IGN to give in to gamers and I always know to come to GameSpot for the harsh criticism that needs to be said. All in all this is actually one of the first times I've commented on anything, so I hope if you read this that you will keep up the good work. And as always "Keep Digging" (obscure Wilfred reference)
Thank you for the memories,
The number of black gamers is increasing aswell. Hope your wifes farm is going good in Farmville you.
hardcore gamer. Btw she didn't point out the flaws. She pointed out one thing which isn't a flaw but part of the satire.
Some of these obvious trollers are just trying too hard.
@oneworddrum starting with the idiot who made the video....
@BradPoynor @oneworddrum Oh man, the irony here is palpable...
Us trolls deserve respect. Theres no need for specism in todays society.
@oneworddrum @BradPoynor BradPoynor is clearly not trying hard enough. He's the most generic troll ever. I bet you he plagiarized his trolling.