[QUOTE="grim0187"]

Look, we can debate this all day. Fact of the matter is, none of you are more right or wrong then I am.

You all have this crazy cooked up theory about special unlock codes and game developers jipping you out of your money.

Then I ask for proof and all you can give me is game journalist opinions.

You guys keep coming at me with your theories about how it cant POSSIBLY be true because of the size and that game companies do this and its a fact. Why is it a fact. "Because we say it is!!" lmao

You all make yourselves look stupid. Keep responding and I'll respond back with a simple reply.

Show me the proof!

gameguy6700

It's not difficult to figure out this is unlock dlc. Anyone who's familiar with file sizes and the type of files that go into a content update (aka dlc) knows that there's no way in hell a 108kb file could be real content. Even DLC that are really nothing but pure code (such as added gameplay modes, see RE5 and Halo Wars) weigh in at roughly 2-3MB, which is 20-30x the size of this 108KB DLC.

Furthermore, there are DLC out there that explicitly state they're unlocks (ex: DiRT 2). Then there are games whose DLC was confirmed to be nothing but an unlock (ex: Return to Castle Wolfenstein). Just go look at the file sizes for those DLC and you'll see why we're all saying 108kb is telltale sign of an unlock DLC.

Source? Proof?

Your just saying more of the same. "There's no WAY it could NOT be on the disk because of its SIZE. Look at the size! I have no idea how big or small they can make a DLC, but look at the SIZE!"

[QUOTE="grim0187"]

Look, we can debate this all day. Fact of the matter is, none of you are more right or wrong then I am.

You all have this crazy cooked up theory about special unlock codes and game developers jipping you out of your money.

Then I ask for proof and all you can give me is game journalist opinions.

You guys keep coming at me with your theories about how it cant POSSIBLY be true because of the size and that game companies do this and its a fact. Why is it a fact. "Because we say it is!!" lmao

You all make yourselves look stupid. Keep responding and I'll respond back with a simple reply.

Show me the proof!

lowe0

Actually, there's a very simple way to prove that there are DLC key files: if you play online against someone who doesn't have it, does it still show up? If so, then it has to be on your system (either on the disc or as part of a title update). And if it's on your system, but you can't play it, then what's missing? That's right, a DLC key file.

For a practical example, that's why Burnout Paradise patches are so large. Whether you buy the DLC or not, everyone has to have it, so that when one player uses it the other players can see the car they're driving.

What do you mean, "does it still show up?" Does what show up?

A patch is not DLC.

I would actually prefer that the gaming industry began selling shorter, $30 games with tons of DLC. We could afford more games, get the core experience, and then choose to spend extra money on extra content for the games we truly enjoy. I mean, how many games do you own that you never finished? Imagine those were shorter and cheaper, with no extra fluff levels; just a streamlined experience.Gammit10

Actually, most of the games I havent finished are large scale. Im married and work as an EMT full time, so my schedule is kinda tight.

[QUOTE="grim0187"]

[QUOTE="jazznate"]

Let's stop feeding the troll guys.

S0lidSnake

I didnt know debating was being a troll...when did that happen....

omg dude. please PLEASE for the love of humanity, drop the 'patch size' argument. your other points, i can see where u r coming from, but trust me when i say this, "You are coming off a complete idiot saying 100K file contains the whole DLC." in fact, do this:

- Create a MS Word document, type up a paragraaph or two, see how much space a freakin text file takes.

or

- Create a simple program in C or JAVA that prints out a single line, and u'll see how idiotic u sound.
or

- just look at the size of a a picture, a JPEG picture. 100k is nothing dude. nothing.

For what its worth, the RE5 DLC was patched in before the Downloadable key was released on PSN. It wasnt on the original disc.

That said, the DLC was announced before the game hit, and was patched in on Day1 which most likely means it was held back.

You cant compare a video game to a word document.

You dont know how they can utilize 100kb.

How much space does a multiplayer map use?

Let's stop feeding the troll guys.

jazznate

I didnt know debating was being a troll...when did that happen....

[QUOTE="grim0187"]

I didnt say all my buddies were programmers. Funny how everyone jumps on that. I said I KNOW people who program games. And alot of people who DO make games and DO work for game companies are gamers themselves. They have friends and family who pay for said game. If this was all true, dont you think someone would have came out by now? A developer or game company fessing up? Hasnt happened. Why? BECAUSE ITS BOGUS. There is NO such thing as a stupid secret "unlock key" that takes data off of the disc. The disc spins in your xbox does it not? When the disc is spinning the laser is reading it. The laser doesnt pick and choose which parts of the disc to read.

Your "proof" equates to a bunch of video game journalists speculating. Good luck with that.

Grammaton-Cleric

Proof isn't only a signed or oral confession. If it were, nobody would ever go to jail.

True, but you havent shown me anything otherwise. You've only shown me what other people say and comparing file sizes.

The proof is that no file size that small could have contained an entire Vs. Mode for RE5. The proof is that the Capcom executive, when pressured on the issue, chose to avoid addressing the main concern and instead went on a diatribe about the intrinsic value of RE5, then expertly weaved his way through the issue by never stating for the record that the DLC wasn't on the disc because had he made that assertion he would have been lying. If it wasn't on the disc, why didn't he simply say so?

How do you know that a file size that small couldnt have contained it? Whats your credentials? How would you know this? Do you make games? Maybe the Capcom exectuive was told not to comment on it. Most of the time, with questions like that, they are told not to respond. Just because he didnt answer the question outright doesnt mean its true. Many times people have done this, only to later come out with the actual truth.

Are you really going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that your burden of proof is developers and publishers admitting that they are purposely withholding content for the express purpose of charging for it? Companies never admit their shady dealings, which is why Microsoft still denies that they shipped the launch XB360 units knowing the failure rate was insanely high. There is such a thing as a logical deduction, where any rationale, semi-intelligent person can add up the obvious and make an educated inference. We know that some of these DLC packages are far too small to contain any real content which in turn means they must be getting said content from the game disc. I really don't understand why you are being so purposely obtuse when the facts are blatant and irrefutable.

Because these arnt facts. A fact isnt something that you infer. A fact is IRREFUTABLE evidence. You dont have that. Maybe they dont have shady dealings. Maybe your just paranoid. How do you know? You DONT. And you DONT have any clue how to make games so you wouldnt have any idea if the size even mattered or not.

As to your comment about the DVD in the tray, are you serious? The technology that propels optical media isn't precisely the same as a vinyl record; obviously a DVD in a game console can pick and choose what to read and load because otherwise, we'd have to play the entire game each and every play through. When you skip ahead on a DVD movie, you are playing that portion of the disc and choosing to do so. So yes, developers can choose to place content on discs that cannot be accessed without either a code or a hack. Want further proof? Google the Hot Coffee debacle back when GTA:SA came out. The developers locked down the sexual content but the game was eventually hacked, which was the only way to access it.

No, there is no special code that unlocks part of the disc. The laser doesnt pick and choose where to go, the user does.

My question to you is how can somebody who has so emphatically argued the technical merits of this issue not even know the basic way an optical drive actually works?

And my question to you is how can someone who has no idea how to make a game sit there and debate about the size of it.

[QUOTE="grim0187"]

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

Nobody is operating on assumptions, speculation or conjecture. The practice of including DLC on a disk but not giving the gamer immediate access to it has been documented, end of story. That's what we call a FACT.

Where is this documentation? Who documented it? Has a game developer came out and admitted to it? Has anyone found any non-refutable evidence? No? Then its NOT a fact.

As to the notion that we all want everything for free, I spend more on thishobby than you could possibly imagine

I've been gaming since the begining, kid. I was putting quarters in arcade machines while you were suckin on a bottle...

and while I have no problem with sizeable DLC released at a reasonable price, many of these micro-transactions are simply crass, cheap ways to milk us of extra money.That isn't to say all DLC is negative; The Ballad of Gay Tony for example was a steal at 20 dollars. What I and others have a problem with is this nickel and dime transaction nonsense wherethings that should have been included on the full retail product are released day and date on XBL or PSN, often at ludicrous prices. When I pay 60.00 dollars for a game I think releasing outfits, skins, or other features that should have been on the disc for an extra fee is tacky and disrespectful to the consumer. Actually, I would call the practice downright grotesque in some cases, like the costume packs in SF4 and the multiplayer mode in RE5.

Its EXTRAS. You dont HAVE to have them to play the game! Its only for people who WANT them. Does having an extra costume or a new multiplayer mode DETRACT from the game at all? No it does not. Its for the fans of said game. Its not tacky or disrespectful because you can STILL enjoy the FULL game on disc without the bonus DLC content.

If you want to continue operating under the assumption that the companies are your personal buddy, that's your choice, but I've seen plenty of evidence to the contrary. Also, stamp collectingcan actually be one of the most expensive hobbies a person can indulge in, so do us all a favor and spare this forum anymore of your painfully banal quips.

You might wanna put the thesarus down, kid. Your only making yourself look stupid. You can sit there and be paranoid and think everyones out to milk you of all your money. When you actually grow up and pay bills, you might look at things a bit differently. Where is this "evidence" you have seen? I havent seen ANY.

CD-i_ownz

I dont have to convince you, you have to convince me. YOU have the burden of proof, not me.

All you can come up with is size, and now your comparing it to trophy's and rumble support, STILL not video games.

I have the pack. Its two new multiplayer maps a new weapon. Thats it. It might not take that much space to make. You have no clue.

[QUOTE="grim0187"]

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

Nobody is operating on assumptions, speculation or conjecture. The practice of including DLC on a disk but not giving the gamer immediate access to it has been documented, end of story. That's what we call a FACT.

Where is this documentation? Who documented it? Has a game developer came out and admitted to it? Has anyone found any non-refutable evidence? No? Then its NOT a fact.

As to the notion that we all want everything for free, I spend more on thishobby than you could possibly imagine

I've been gaming since the begining, kid. I was putting quarters in arcade machines while you were suckin on a bottle...

and while I have no problem with sizeable DLC released at a reasonable price, many of these micro-transactions are simply crass, cheap ways to milk us of extra money.That isn't to say all DLC is negative; The Ballad of Gay Tony for example was a steal at 20 dollars. What I and others have a problem with is this nickel and dime transaction nonsense wherethings that should have been included on the full retail product are released day and date on XBL or PSN, often at ludicrous prices. When I pay 60.00 dollars for a game I think releasing outfits, skins, or other features that should have been on the disc for an extra fee is tacky and disrespectful to the consumer. Actually, I would call the practice downright grotesque in some cases, like the costume packs in SF4 and the multiplayer mode in RE5.

Its EXTRAS. You dont HAVE to have them to play the game! Its only for people who WANT them. Does having an extra costume or a new multiplayer mode DETRACT from the game at all? No it does not. Its for the fans of said game. Its not tacky or disrespectful because you can STILL enjoy the FULL game on disc without the bonus DLC content.

If you want to continue operating under the assumption that the companies are your personal buddy, that's your choice, but I've seen plenty of evidence to the contrary. Also, stamp collectingcan actually be one of the most expensive hobbies a person can indulge in, so do us all a favor and spare this forum anymore of your painfully banal quips.

You might wanna put the thesarus down, kid. Your only making yourself look stupid. You can sit there and be paranoid and think everyones out to milk you of all your money. When you actually grow up and pay bills, you might look at things a bit differently. Where is this "evidence" you have seen? I havent seen ANY.

Grammaton-Cleric

That thesaurus is called my brain, linked directly to my education, which is extensive. And I'm 34 so if that qualifies me as a "kid" then you'd better be at least 50.

I really don't know what your problem is but the documentation is out there. Here's an IGN article on the RE5 content already being on the disc:

http://xboxlive.ign.com/articles/970/970396p1.html

"Versus mode represents content that was created outside the scope of the original design of Resident Evil 5. This is an all new mode that required additional resources to create, not to mention the additional bandwidth costs."

Thats a quote from your IGN article. Not to mention, the headline of the article states a question. They pose no facts. They are just speculating, as are all of you.

It also appears that Brutal Legend has the DLC content already on the disc, as mentioned on this site and others:

http://www.n4g.com/xbox360/News-423800.aspx

I already debunked this site. Its a tiny paragraph, expressing someones opinion without any proof.

SF4 has also been proven to have the DLC on the disc, as evidenced by the various hacks out there to unlock the material without purchasing the download.

Variouse hacks? On what, the PC version? Where has anyone hacked the "disc" to get the content? I havent seen it. Post some evidence.

The proof is there, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

Thats not proof. Thats peoples opinions. There isnt ANY developers or ANY legitimate person confirming this.

As to the notion of these DLC's being extras, I already outlined the clear difference between a DLC that is a true extension of the game versus superficial items that should have been available at launch.

"Superficial items that should have been available at launch" is your opinion. You dont HAVE to have those items. Its only there for the people who want them. The fans. You already get a great game, who cares if you dont have extra costumes? There are multiple reasons as to why they didnt include them with launch, such as time, space, or the fact that maybe they didnt think about the items until afterward. You have no way of knowing, just your own paranoia freaking you out.

Regardless, even assuming you find all DLC acceptable, the fact remains that some DLC is being shipped on the disc and can be only unlocked by purchasing it online, which means publishers and developers are purposely withholding content that should rightfully ship with the retail disc.

Of which there is no proof, only speculation. Its not a fact. Hate it for ya.

Look, if you think these practices are acceptable, that's your prerogative, but at least have the integrity to argue with facts rather than stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the reality right in front of your nose. You've droned on and on about how your buddies are all programmers and the rest of us know nothing about game design (an erroneous assumption) but you are clearly wrong about the DLC not being on the disc so perhaps your own knowledge of programming and this industry isn't quite as extensive as you've claimed.

I didnt say all my buddies were programmers. Funny how everyone jumps on that. I said I KNOW people who program games. And alot of people who DO make games and DO work for game companies are gamers themselves. They have friends and family who pay for said game. If this was all true, dont you think someone would have came out by now? A developer or game company fessing up? Hasnt happened. Why? BECAUSE ITS BOGUS. There is NO such thing as a stupid secret "unlock key" that takes data off of the disc. The disc spins in your xbox does it not? When the disc is spinning the laser is reading it. The laser doesnt pick and choose which parts of the disc to read.

Your "proof" equates to a bunch of video game journalists speculating. Good luck with that.