I actually do believe that something came from nothing.Genetic_Code
@_@
That's the only logical conclusion I can come up with. The alternative is that something has always existed, which I can't accept, because it seems only logically permissible that things that exist originate at some pointGenetic_Code
We're unavoidably heading into the territory of the kalam cosmological argument here. You say that everything that exists begins to do so at some point, prior to which it did not exist. If we take that as true then yeah, something like energy or matter cannot have existed forever.
But really now, if you extrapolate that back to a point where you have something coming from nothing doesn't that indicate that you ought to re-examine your starting premise. Surely something beginning to exist ex nihilo is way more logically impermissable than your premise being wrong or poorly stated?
Now the statement "things that exist originate at some point" is pretty hard to argue with. It's true of everything that I can observe in front of me right now. Nevertheless there are certain considerations that we must take into account in order to refine the statement and make it more accurate and less likely to lead us to absurd conclusions.
So, things that exist originate at some point but have you noticed that the prior states from which they originate are always, without exception material states? The prior states always have something in them which is effected and then changed into the new thing. As an example my laptop originated at some point, but it didn't pop into being ex nihilo. It originated as the result of pre-existing materials (plastic, circuitry etc) being organized into a computer. Every process of "coming into being" happens this way and it's convenient to name this process with the fancy latin title "ex materia".
Lets refine the statement with that consideration in mind. "Things that exist originate ex materia at some point". It's still true of everything that I can observe while I write this and it avoids that preposterous notion of something coming into existence ex nihilo.
So, things that exist originate ex materia at some point but have you noticed that this isn't really true of energy? Energy both exists and is perfectly conserved such that the exact same amount of it exists in present, prior and future states. It never seems to "originate" per se, it's just always there in one form or another. This goes back to the first law of thermodynamics that I mentioned in my first post. That law pretty much makes it impossible to say that there was a prior state where energy did not exist. In other words energy never originated.
The statement then changes to "excepting energy, things that exist originate ex materia at some point". Hopefully that is a logically permissable statement for you and will allow you to think of this issue in a different way. From what I can tell it implies that energy preceded the universe eternally, which is more or less what mishmash94 said in the first response.
My other contribution is the following question:
Coming into being occurs across a linear process of time. Linear processes of time occur relative to something undergoing change. Time and "stuff changing" seem to be the very same thing. How then, does it make sense to ask how stuff began to exist prior to which there was no stuff?
which is why I don't accept God as the first cause as being a satisfactory answer. However, science at times can require more imagination that what seems to be logic.
There is no satisfiable conclusion to this answer. I think perhaps scientists might find some sort of way in which matter and energy could be self-created, but I don't know if this will ever come to fruition.Genetic_Code
Self creation seems to be logically impossible. If something is created then it didn't exist prior to its creation. If something creates then it did exist prior to whatever it created. So if something creates itself then it both exists and doesn't exist prior to its creation. That's as good an indication as any that self-creation didn't happen.
Another question that just sprung to mind: does the expanding universe gain matter by subtracting energy?Genetic_Code
The universe doesn't expand by having new matter created around the borders, like a snowball might. The matter is all there it's just moving apart from itself. When matter is created from energy, the energy isn't subtracted, any more than water is subtracted when you freeze it. It simply transforms into a different state.
It's nice to see you again dom (and the rest of you all as well).Genetic_Code
Yeah, you too G_C thanks for the interesting topic.
Log in to comment