What's Your Explanation For Out-of-body-experiences?

No doubt the majority view held by atheists is that we don't have a spirit - by definition the eternal part of us which was made in the likeness of God.

So how do you explain out-of-body-experiences? There's a wealth of people who've experienced them. I believe one in ten people have a near death experience during some point in their life.

So what's your explanation for them if we have no spirit? How is it possible to see everything that is going on even though your unconscious and your bodily eyes are shut? How is it possible to describe something you've seen while having an out-of-body-experience which turns out to be exactly where you say it is when you wake up?

No doubt the majority view held by atheists is that we don't have a spirit - by definition the eternal part of us which was made in the likeness of God.

So how do you explain out-of-body-experiences? There's a wealth of people who've experienced them. I believe one in ten people have a near death experience during some point in their life.

So what's your explanation for them if we have no spirit? How is it possible to see everything that is going on even though your unconscious and your bodily eyes are shut? How is it possible to describe something you've seen while having an out-of-body-experience which turns out to be exactly where you say it is when you wake up?

Lansdowne5

Your brain is doing its best to fill in the gaps while its under abnormal conditions. The floating out of your body effect is sometimes caused by a fluctuation of blood pressure and it produces a sensation of elevation which your brain attempts to fill in.

An identical effect to this can be produced by taking LSD so I think there is good reason to call it a physical phenomenon.

Your brain is doing its best to fill in the gaps while its under abnormal conditions. The floating out of your body effect is sometimes caused by a fluctuation of blood pressure and it produces a sensation of elevation which your brain attempts to fill in.

An identical effect to this can be produced by taking LSD so I think there is good reason to call it a physical phenomenon.

domatron23

Well said. Science has a great way of explaining things that others call unexplainable, have to love it.

It's pretty much a DMT trip. Your body secretes DMT, which cause you to hallucinate.gbpman630

That's all well and good, but that doesn't explain why so many people see things from above that they would have absolutely no way of knowing about, and then it turns out that the object is exactly where they say it was afterwards. How can the brain possibly do that?

It's hallucinations, for the most part, caused by the brain's dying from not getting the oxygen it needs. The explanation for people seeing what's around them is caused because the senses are still feeding the brain information, and the brain creates an image of what it thinks is going on around it. What you are seeing this moment is an image generated by your brain of what the brain thinks your eyes will show you, since sight takes 10 seconds to reach the brain.

It's hallucinations, for the most part, caused by the brain's dying from not getting the oxygen it needs. The explanation for people seeing what's around them is caused because the senses are still feeding the brain information, and the brain creates an image of what it thinks is going on around it. What you are seeing this moment is an image generated by your brain of what the brain thinks your eyes will show you, since sight takes 10 seconds to reach the brain.

Strategist1117

No, hallucinations can only take place if the brain is active. Many out-of-body-experiences have been observed where there is zero brain activity.

Look at this link -http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

Now, how is that a hallucination if the brain is efffectively dead and there is zero activity?

Look at this link -http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

Now, how is that a hallucination if the brain is efffectively dead and there is zero activity?

Lansdowne5

Ah yes me and black discussed ol' Pam once before. My explanation is that her NDE, which was occuring in her brain independent of what was actually happening on the table, happened before or after they shut her brain down.

Her NDE shows all the hallmarks of a phenomenon which is understood to be a product of the brain. The bright light, the reunion with loved ones from the past and the out of body experience are all elements that have happened many times in other patients and what they experience has been validated to be largely unreliable. I think that Pam's case is a mixture of coincidence, selective recollection and suggestiveness.

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

Look at this link -http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

Now, how is that a hallucination if the brain is efffectively dead and there is zero activity?

domatron23

Ah yes me and black discussed ol' Pam once before. My explanation is that her NDE, which was occuring in her brain independent of what was actually happening on the table, happened before or after they shut her brain down.

Her NDE shows all the hallmarks of a phenomenon which is understood to be a product of the brain. The bright light, the reunion with loved ones from the past and the out of body experience are all elements that have happened many times in other patients and what they experience has been validated to be largely unreliable. I think that Pam's case is a mixture of coincidence, selective recollection and suggestiveness.

OK. That's merely one example though. How do you explain the fact that there have been cases where NDEs have been observed when the person has no brain activity?

Here's another link -http://neardeathexperiences.angelsghosts.com/

Ok, mine explanation comes from 4 Dr's who have studied it for years. Watched a terribly fascinating documentary on it, but it's been about 6 months so I may mess a bit up, and will try to find a link. Essentially when the brain begins to go without oxygen it tells all vital organs and brain parts to shut down. The one part that it tells to stay alive is at the top of the spinal cord and brain stem. This part of the brain controls light, and our deepest memories. Hence the going to the light and remembering childhood or family. The one iffy part, a man had sudden heart surgery, never met the Dr., and was out cold. When he awoke 2 days later he asked about 3 quirky things the Dr did while performing surgery, that he had no way of knowing. He claimed to be above himself and watched it all. I think this was a John Hopkins, and the Chief of Staff, interviewed him thoroughly and there was no way possible for him to know what he knew. So all 4 doctors had explanations for all of near death, out of body experiences, but not that one.

To me, do we have a soul? I don't know, but I don't equate having or not having one with religion.

[QUOTE="gbpman630"]It's pretty much a DMT trip. Your body secretes DMT, which cause you to hallucinate.Lansdowne5

That's all well and good, but that doesn't explain why so many people see things from above that they would have absolutely no way of knowing about, and then it turns out that the object is exactly where they say it was afterwards. How can the brain possibly do that?

[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

Look at this link -http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

Now, how is that a hallucination if the brain is efffectively dead and there is zero activity?

Lansdowne5

Ah yes me and black discussed ol' Pam once before. My explanation is that her NDE, which was occuring in her brain independent of what was actually happening on the table, happened before or after they shut her brain down.

Her NDE shows all the hallmarks of a phenomenon which is understood to be a product of the brain. The bright light, the reunion with loved ones from the past and the out of body experience are all elements that have happened many times in other patients and what they experience has been validated to be largely unreliable. I think that Pam's case is a mixture of coincidence, selective recollection and suggestiveness.

OK. That's merely one example though. How do you explain the fact that there have been cases where NDEs have been observed when the person has no brain activity?

Here's another link -http://neardeathexperiences.angelsghosts.com/

Same explanation as before, the NDE happens before or after the period where the person has no brain activity. Remember the NDE happens independantly of what's actually going on outside so you can't confirm that the person's experiences happened at the same time as the event they claim to have seen.

I'll have a looksie at your link later on tonight, the monitor I'm on right now can't show that purple text very well at all.

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

Look at this link -http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

Now, how is that a hallucination if the brain is efffectively dead and there is zero activity?

domatron23

Ah yes me and black discussed ol' Pam once before. My explanation is that her NDE, which was occuring in her brain independent of what was actually happening on the table, happened before or after they shut her brain down.

Her NDE shows all the hallmarks of a phenomenon which is understood to be a product of the brain. The bright light, the reunion with loved ones from the past and the out of body experience are all elements that have happened many times in other patients and what they experience has been validated to be largely unreliable. I think that Pam's case is a mixture of coincidence, selective recollection and suggestiveness.

OK. That's merely one example though. How do you explain the fact that there have been cases where NDEs have been observed when the person has no brain activity?

Here's another link -http://neardeathexperiences.angelsghosts.com/

Same explanation as before, the NDE happens before or after the period where the person has no brain activity. Remember the NDE happens independantly of what's actually going on outside so you can't confirm that the person's experiences happened at the same time as the event they claim to have seen.

I'll have a looksie at your link later on tonight, the monitor I'm on right now can't show that purple text very well at all.

There've been OBEs recorded when the person is medically dead. People who've asked about parts of the operation they've seen while their brain has had ZERO activity. But this part is trivial anyway, assume for a second that there is no brain activity, then how can it be explained?

[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

Look at this link -http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

Now, how is that a hallucination if the brain is efffectively dead and there is zero activity?

Lansdowne5

Ah yes me and black discussed ol' Pam once before. My explanation is that her NDE, which was occuring in her brain independent of what was actually happening on the table, happened before or after they shut her brain down.

Her NDE shows all the hallmarks of a phenomenon which is understood to be a product of the brain. The bright light, the reunion with loved ones from the past and the out of body experience are all elements that have happened many times in other patients and what they experience has been validated to be largely unreliable. I think that Pam's case is a mixture of coincidence, selective recollection and suggestiveness.

OK. That's merely one example though. How do you explain the fact that there have been cases where NDEs have been observed when the person has no brain activity?

Here's another link -http://neardeathexperiences.angelsghosts.com/

Same explanation as before, the NDE happens before or after the period where the person has no brain activity. Remember the NDE happens independantly of what's actually going on outside so you can't confirm that the person's experiences happened at the same time as the event they claim to have seen.

I'll have a looksie at your link later on tonight, the monitor I'm on right now can't show that purple text very well at all.

There've been OBEs recorded when the person is medically dead. People who've asked about parts of the operation they've seen while their brain has had ZERO activity. But this part is trivial anyway, assume for a second that there is no brain activity, then how can it be explained?

I've told you already Lansdowne the OBE happens independant to external events. They don't "see" the operation they imagine an operation and this occurs before or after their brain shuts down.

Anyways assuming that an NDE occured in a person who was medically dead I suppose that only a supernatural account of how that person perceived anything would work. The only physical account of human perception that I'm aware of is brain activity so if you remove that there's one way to go.

I've told you already Lansdowne the OBE happens independant to external events. They don't "see" the operation they imagine an operation and this occurs before or after their brain shuts down.

Anyways assuming that an NDE occured in a person who was medically dead I suppose that only a supernatural account of how that person perceived anything would work. The only physical account of human perception that I'm aware of is brain activity so if you remove that there's one way to go.

domatron23

Bingo. You've got the explanation right there.

OBE's have occured when there is no brain activity. Not before there is no brain activity, not after there is no brain activity, but WHILE there is no brain activity.

[QUOTE="domatron23"]

I've told you already Lansdowne the OBE happens independant to external events. They don't "see" the operation they imagine an operation and this occurs before or after their brain shuts down.

Anyways assuming that an NDE occured in a person who was medically dead I suppose that only a supernatural account of how that person perceived anything would work. The only physical account of human perception that I'm aware of is brain activity so if you remove that there's one way to go.

Lansdowne5

Bingo. You've got the explanation right there.

OBE's have occured when there is no brain activity. Not before there is no brain activity, not after there is no brain activity, but WHILE there is no brain activity.

I've bolded, highlighted and underlined the important bit. How do you determine the time that an OBE occured if what I am claiming is correct?

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="domatron23"]

I've told you already Lansdowne the OBE happens independant to external events. They don't "see" the operation they imagine an operation and this occurs before or after their brain shuts down.

Anyways assuming that an NDE occured in a person who was medically dead I suppose that only a supernatural account of how that person perceived anything would work. The only physical account of human perception that I'm aware of is brain activity so if you remove that there's one way to go.

domatron23

Bingo. You've got the explanation right there.

OBE's have occured when there is no brain activity. Not before there is no brain activity, not after there is no brain activity, but WHILE there is no brain activity.

I've bolded, highlighted and underlined the important bit. How do you determine the time that an OBE occured if what I am claiming is correct?

When the patient has been describing parts of the operation after they've been brought back from the dead, they have been able to describe specifically what was going on at an interval when they had no brain activity. Something they could have no possible way of knowing unless they'd seen it first hand.

Look at this link -http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

Now, how is that a hallucination if the brain is efffectively dead and there is zero activity?

Lansdowne5

[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="domatron23"]

I've told you already Lansdowne the OBE happens independant to external events. They don't "see" the operation they imagine an operation and this occurs before or after their brain shuts down.

Anyways assuming that an NDE occured in a person who was medically dead I suppose that only a supernatural account of how that person perceived anything would work. The only physical account of human perception that I'm aware of is brain activity so if you remove that there's one way to go.

Lansdowne5

Bingo. You've got the explanation right there.

OBE's have occured when there is no brain activity. Not before there is no brain activity, not after there is no brain activity, but WHILE there is no brain activity.

I've bolded, highlighted and underlined the important bit. How do you determine the time that an OBE occured if what I am claiming is correct?

When the patient has been describing parts of the operation after they've been brought back from the dead, they have been able to describe specifically what was going on at an interval when they had no brain activity. Something they could have no possible way of knowing unless they'd seen it first hand.

Yup that's where we differ, although I will freely admit that some of the NDEs that I hear about are pretty bamboozling.

The veridicial evidence for OBEs can be accounted for a mixture of suggestion ("did you see this?" "yes I did"), coincidence and selectiveness (wow forget about that crap you were wrong about you got this one bit right).

In the interest of fairness though here is a balanced view of NDEs  Enjoy Lansdowne.

So why are you showing us near-death experiences in an attempt to claim that dead people have experienced them? Near-death is not the same thing as death.CptJSparrow

Doesn't zero brain activity constitute medical death though? I would think that if you were actually experiencing anything whatsoever while your brain was out of action that it would be very relevant to the soul argument.

Good to see you here btw cap'n.

The Day I Died documentary by the BBC offers an indepth look at this topic.  Now while not claiming we have spirits, it does seem to make the case that consciousness can exist apart from our brains.  If this is indeed true, it will at the very least open up new fields of study concerning human physiology, quantum physics, consciousness, the mind and the brain.

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"]

So why are you showing us near-death experiences in an attempt to claim that dead people have experienced them? Near-death is not the same thing as death.domatron23

Doesn't zero brain activity constitute medical death though? I would think that if you were actually experiencing anything whatsoever while your brain was out of action that it would be very relevant to the soul argument.

Good to see you here btw cap'n.

[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"]

So why are you showing us near-death experiences in an attempt to claim that dead people have experienced them? Near-death is not the same thing as death.CptJSparrow

Doesn't zero brain activity constitute medical death though? I would think that if you were actually experiencing anything whatsoever while your brain was out of action that it would be very relevant to the soul argument.

Good to see you here btw cap'n.

It's just a name. A way to catagorize them. :) 

It's just a name. A way to catagorize them. :) 

Lansdowne5

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

It's just a name. A way to catagorize them. :) 

CptJSparrow

Why are you being so pinickity?

Is a cupboard, a cup on a board? No. It's just a name. If you went through the dictionary with that kind of logic you'd have to take out practically half of the nouns just to keep the name inline with the implication.

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

It's just a name. A way to catagorize them. :) 

Lansdowne5

Why are you being so pinickity?

Is a cupboard, a cup on a board? No. It's just a name. If you went through the dictionary with that kind of logic you'd have to take out practically half of the nouns just to keep the name inline with the implication.

Hey CPTJsparrow, are those Nuns with knives, or Nuns with Guns in your sig?123625

They look like guns to me. Perhaps they have bayonets on the ends?

[QUOTE="123625"]Hey CPTJsparrow, are those Nuns with knives, or Nuns with Guns in your sig?domatron23

They look like guns to me. Perhaps they have bayonets on the ends?

Either way Nuns with weapons and skill = awsome ;)

[QUOTE="domatron23"]

[QUOTE="123625"]Hey CPTJsparrow, are those Nuns with knives, or Nuns with Guns in your sig?123625

They look like guns to me. Perhaps they have bayonets on the ends?

Either way Nuns with weapons and skill = awsome ;)

Yep! They are the Ninjas of the West!

First I would like to address the repeated ZERO BRAIN activity claim.  Up until recently people were still touting that "we only use 40% of our brain" garbage.  More modern medical procedures and equipment shows that in fact, just as you would expect from an evolutionary point of view, we use all of our brains.  The equipment just wasn't available to get a proper read, so when you say "there is zero brain activity" what you are really saying is the machines that were used on them that have now been shown to not detect a very significant amount of brain activity, didn't detect any brain activity. 

Past this, I had what many people would call an OBE about 5 years ago, not the near death kind but one with striking similarities to what I later found described in Hindu meditation.  While it was quite interesting albeit rather brief, the best explanation for it is any combination of the following:  consciousness corruption brought on by a partial dream state, DMT side effect, and/or acid flashback.  I don't prescribe any supernatural significance to it.

The Day I Died documentary by the BBC offers an indepth look at this topic.  Now while not claiming we have spirits, it does seem to make the case that consciousness can exist apart from our brains.  If this is indeed true, it will at the very least open up new fields of study concerning human physiology, quantum physics, consciousness, the mind and the brain.

Alter_Ego

I will watch this later when I have more time but I think I can probably safely strike the implications of quantum physics from your statement ahead of time.  Any time I have seen the word "quantum" used with anything supernatural in the past (repeatedly with that fraud Deepak Choppra) it has actually been a dishonest attempt to take advantage of gullible lay people. They explain away as them just using simple metaphor.