My Reason for Being an Atheist

What would need to happen in order to convince you that there was a God?Lansdowne5

Short of God himself/herself talking to me?  I'm not quite sure.  It's one of those things I'd know it if I saw or felt it.  Crappy answer I know, but that's all I have.  I've read books, the Bible, Quran, Torah, ect til I'm blue in the face and they just don't get the job done.  I have life-long friends who are "born again Christians" that have talked with me for hours,as has my preacher, still doesn't connnect.

I think if anyone professes to truly understand the concept of God, then their concept is wrong. GabuEx

QFT im not religious because theres no evidence for religion and it seems rediculous, and thats without including the bad stuff religion causes,

I think if anyone professes to truly understand the concept of God, then their concept is wrong. :PGabuEx

God is quantum theory? :shock: :P

life is amazing

it is so complex, one person(god) couldn't have created it!!

There are many fascinating "philosophical/scientific arguments" for being an Atheist that have been great topics in the AU. I rarely post in them because my reason is slightly different. For me, it boils down to I just can't wrap my brain around there being a God. All of the major religions have holes in them IMO, and I'm not about to make up my own. So my reason is quite simple, I just cannot commit 100% to any of them, as interesting as I may find them. Is this the case for anyone else?btaylor2404

I hear ya B,

I simply can't dedicate myself with such conviction to something that I don't know is true or not. Belief is not enough unfortunately, and I refuse to accept the idea of God for the illusion of comfort or the convienience of explaining everything we don't understand and can't grasp. Still, I can't quite pin it down.....but I do and have always felt a precense in my life, holy or not, though it is still not enough for me to open myself up to.

Plainly speaking, I want and need absolute truth. Since that's not possible, facts and observations will have to do for now.

I think by logic, I mean I've been compared to Spock before.

I've tried to understand several major faiths, tried to accept it. But I simply couldn't do it. The creation myths, the miracles, the revelations, the demons, etc., none of it really fit together when dissected with rationality as my scalpel. If there's no hard evidence to support a theory, it isn't a theory, it's a hypothesis, and for me that's what divinity is, an unproven hypothesis.

I was raised somewhat of a christian as my mom was the full blooded christian and my dad is a christian, but only to a certain extent. My mom and dad were seperated when I was around 3 years old though, and I lived with my dad and visit my mom only on school breaks as she moved to a different state. At first, my dad was going to church every Sunday. I was in the little kids quire singing and rehearsing every sunday. At first, it was all fun and a great atmosphere. People were catching the "Holy Ghost", jumping up and acting liked they were possessed. Then when I turned 11, we stopped going to church. Something happen that I don't want to discuss when I was 13 years old that basically called my fate into question. I begin wondering if God exist, why isn't he here to fix this planet, why is he letting War and slavery exist......why are important people in everyone lives die young? When I was 14, I finally witness the movie Amistad. Being that I am a African American, it didn't affect me a racial way that made me want to hate other races. However, it had other affects on me. That feeling I had after watching Amistad only grew when I watched movies that took place during the Holocaust where Nazi's where executing and treating the Jewish people even lower than a stray dog. Considering it was based on a true story, it just about helped me make up my mind if God exist or not. by the time I was 15, I fully converted into a Atheist, though it wasn't until I was 17 that the term Atheist sprung up, otherwise I was just a person that didn't believe a God exist. I've ran into people that was trying to teach me religion I didn't want to be a part of. When I told them this, they automatically begin thinking I worship the devil and if I walk into a church, I'd burn walking through the doors. So I decided to use reasoning. I told them that, IMO, the only God I know are my parents. They were the ones that brought me into this world, not a God. they provided me with food and shelter, not god. And they were the only ones that carried me over my struggles during my time in school, not an invisible God. Though they didn't accept my opinion well, they let it go. And since then, I used that type of reasoning to get by the most Bible solicitors that got in my way so I could end a conversation short on move on with my life. My dad actually called me a devil once when I decided to change a station that a gospel song started on. I didn't give him a piece of my mind like I gave those other people, so I ignored him. My mom on the other hand, I recently let her know my mindset. She took my opinion well, but like most christians, she still felt like she was "saved" by God when she was in a tight spot. She told me that she was doing drugs, and God camed into her life to stop her from doing it. Then she started rambling on about me and my big sister coming into her life. She was still doing the crap after I was born, but soon stopped. From the way she descibed it, i tried to explain to her that God didn't save her. that it was her conscious that made it possible for her to stop since she knew she had to stop in order to take care of my sister and me when my dad was at work. She partly agrees, but still felt the God had something to do with her stopping to. So while I let it go and accpeted what she believes, she still tries to stuff christian crap down my ears when I don't want to here it. She's even forcing me to go to church with her new husband and my 2 little bros when I don't even want to go. And it pisses me off when my Football or Basketball game comes on during church time and I got to miss it since my mom isn't giving me a option to stay home, which  is pissing my off......

Alright, I'm stopping my rant. I just about pour my life story into a small paragraph....:P

Oops. it isn't a small paragraph. Well I just had to get the crap out of my head. i have a habit of doing this when one of my favorite subjects is broughtto my attention...:P

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]What would need to happen in order to convince you that there was a God?btaylor2404

Short of God himself/herself talking to me?  I'm not quite sure.  It's one of those things I'd know it if I saw or felt it.  Crappy answer I know, but that's all I have.  I've read books, the Bible, Quran, Torah, ect til I'm blue in the face and they just don't get the job done.  I have life-long friends who are "born again Christians" that have talked with me for hours,as has my preacher, still doesn't connnect.

Btaylor, do you agree that all loving relationships should be built on faith?

I am a Atheist because 1) I see all the evil it makes. The wars, the hate, the closed minds. let alone that God himself (If there is one) has destroyed cities and flooded the world out of anger. 2) I can't just accept it. I don't know how to describe it. I just can't believe it, it seems like it can never happen. It goes against all we know as a species.Slickace

Politics has caused just as many wars and has created just as much hate.......

[QUOTE="Slickace"]I am a Atheist because 1) I see all the evil it makes. The wars, the hate, the closed minds. let alone that God himself (If there is one) has destroyed cities and flooded the world out of anger. 2) I can't just accept it. I don't know how to describe it. I just can't believe it, it seems like it can never happen. It goes against all we know as a species.Lansdowne5

Politics has caused just as many wars and has created just as much hate.......

I've always said in response to the idea that religion causes war that not every war involved religion, but certainly every war involved a leader of at least one participating nation who had an ego the size of Pluto. :P

[QUOTE="Slickace"]I am a Atheist because 1) I see all the evil it makes. The wars, the hate, the closed minds. let alone that God himself (If there is one) has destroyed cities and flooded the world out of anger. 2) I can't just accept it. I don't know how to describe it. I just can't believe it, it seems like it can never happen. It goes against all we know as a species.Lansdowne5

Politics has caused just as many wars and has created just as much hate.......

What I think slickace means is that if god created everything then why would he allow all these bad things to happen. 

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

[QUOTE="Slickace"]I am a Atheist because 1) I see all the evil it makes. The wars, the hate, the closed minds. let alone that God himself (If there is one) has destroyed cities and flooded the world out of anger. 2) I can't just accept it. I don't know how to describe it. I just can't believe it, it seems like it can never happen. It goes against all we know as a species.lazyhoboguy

Politics has caused just as many wars and has created just as much hate.......

What I think slickace means is that if god created everything then why would he allow all these bad things to happen. 

Why when we play games like Rome Total War do I send a unit of peasents to attack elite cavalry?  Because it's hilarious.

Well I am not an atheist, but I can say that my atheistic "tendencies" stem from the fact that most theistic arguments/phenomena/explanations/interpretations do have a valid and very reasonable and plausible counter-explanation/interpretation why they have nothing to do with an existing deity. Those explanations usually have to do with Archeology, Sociology, Psychology and Sciences in general.

And of course I have been affected by the ill turn of religion nowadays. Being misused big-time for ulterior motives (example: presidential/prime-minister elections), or just misused by ignorant followers.

My reason is that. i feel bound by god. i was raised christian and when i became an atheist i just felt much more free.Link334

No offense intended, but what does that have to do with whether or not God exists?

[QUOTE="Link334"]My reason is that. i feel bound by god. i was raised christian and when i became an atheist i just felt much more free.GabuEx

No offense intended, but what does that have to do with whether or not God exists?

The exact same thought crossed my mind......

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]What would need to happen in order to convince you that there was a God?btaylor2404

Short of God himself/herself talking to me? I'm not quite sure. It's one of those things I'd know it if I saw or felt it. Crappy answer I know, but that's all I have. I've read books, the Bible, Quran, Torah, ect til I'm blue in the face and they just don't get the job done. I have life-long friends who are "born again Christians" that have talked with me for hours,as has my preacher, still doesn't connnect.

Ahh Bryan, a kindred spirit. I have always said since the age of about 16 that the day god holds a press conference and explains himself for the mess that we are in will be the day I believe there is a god. Short of that nothing will convince me for the exact reasoning that you have. Every major religion has holes. The very fact unto itself that there is more than one religion and hence more than one god would lead most to believe there are some serious issues with the very idea.

the day god holds a press conference and explains himself for the mess that we are in will be the day I believe there is a godkellymae

[QUOTE="kellymae"]the day god holds a press conference and explains himself for the mess that we are in will be the day I believe there is a godChiliDragon

Well atheists do not say they know there is no god. Most say the do not belive in god. Meaning that with everything we can see and perceive right now god's existance does not seem probable.

So, even most atheists think there is a very small chance a god or something could exist, but unless that supreme being proves his existance it is most likely that it does not really exist.

And about the "mess" part, since there is a mess of things here on earth it leads people like me to conclude that a god does not exist because if he allows these things to happen he is a pretty bad supreme being to follow. So, yes I believe the mess today is caused by us humans, if there is a god who has allowed this to happen I would not want to follow it.

And about the "mess" part, since there is a mess of things here on earth it leads people like me to conclude that a god does not exist because if he allows these things to happen he is a pretty bad supreme being to follow. So, yes I believe the mess today is caused by us humans, if there is a god who has allowed this to happen I would not want to follow it. lazyhoboguy

[QUOTE="kellymae"]the day god holds a press conference and explains himself for the mess that we are in will be the day I believe there is a godChiliDragon

Hmm, I guess that didn't come out right. I'll try again. My parents god was the one that created everything, the one that is lord on high of the entire universe. When someone died it was gods will, when a church collapsed and killed the parishners it was gods will. Children starving in africa, again gods will, or even better they had displeased god and this was their punishment. This is what I meant by an explanation. It was a rather flippant remark actually. In my heart there is 100 percent certainty that there is no god. Were god to suddenly appear I would have to rethink that stance I suppose.

[QUOTE="ChiliDragon"][QUOTE="kellymae"]the day god holds a press conference and explains himself for the mess that we are in will be the day I believe there is a godkellymae

Hmm, I guess that didn't come out right. I'll try again. My parents god was the one that created everything, the one that is lord on high of the entire universe. When someone died it was gods will, when a church collapsed and killed the parishners it was gods will. Children starving in africa, again gods will, or even better they had displeased god and this was their punishment. This is what I meant by an explanation. It was a rather flippant remark actually. In my heart there is 100 percent certainty that there is no god. Were god to suddenly appear I would have to rethink that stance I suppose.

[QUOTE="lazyhoboguy"]And about the "mess" part, since there is a mess of things here on earth it leads people like me to conclude that a god does not exist because if he allows these things to happen he is a pretty bad supreme being to follow. So, yes I believe the mess today is caused by us humans, if there is a god who has allowed this to happen I would not want to follow it. ChiliDragon

Ah, yea I was generallizing too much I suppose. This is more of a rejection of the way some christians perceive god. Like when god is perceived as having a plan for everything and when even terrible things are seen as part of this plan. Like I do not believe we have a predetermined destiny or fate but have to make our own choices in life. I know not all Christians think this way, so this argument is not directed at them.

I've never understood that reasoning. It implies that there is no other possible reason than god for "the mess". If there isn't, then that statement is tacit admission of god's existence, which to me is a bit self-contradictory for an atheist. Alternatively, if there is no god, "the mess" can't have been caused by god, so to blame god for it makes no sense at all.ChiliDragon

It's pretty much the classic argument from evil: "If God existed, there would be no evil; there is evil; therefore, God does not exist."

Personally, however, I think a world without evil would be quite possibly the most evil world of all.  Anyone who has seen a kid whose parents get him every single thing he's ever wanted will understand why. :P

Ah, yea I was generalizing too much I suppose. This is more of a rejection of the way some christians perceive god. Like when god is perceived as having a plan for everything and when even terrible things are seen as part of this plan. Like I do not believe we have a predetermined destiny or fate but have to make our own choices in life. I know not all Christians think this way, so this argument is not directed at them.lazyhoboguy

[QUOTE="ChiliDragon"]I've never understood that reasoning. It implies that there is no other possible reason than god for "the mess". If there isn't, then that statement is tacit admission of god's existence, which to me is a bit self-contradictory for an atheist. Alternatively, if there is no god, "the mess" can't have been caused by god, so to blame god for it makes no sense at all.GabuEx

It's pretty much the classic argument from evil: "If God existed, there would be no evil; there is evil; therefore, God does not exist."

Personally, however, I think a world without evil would be quite possibly the most evil world of all.  Anyone who has seen a kid whose parents get him every single thing he's ever wanted will understand why. :P

But isn't that exactly what heavan would be like? Plus one could argue that all the negative effects caused by spoiling and sheltering are a result of evil and hence wouldn't exist if god didn't allow evil.

But isn't that exactly what heavan would be like? Plus one could argue that all the negative effects caused by spoiling and sheltering are a result of evil and hence wouldn't exist if god didn't allow evil.bean-with-bacon

Lack of evil in Heaven = Caused by it being refused entry.ChiliDragon

I'm not quite following this.

If you have free will in heaven then surely evil is possible?

But isn't that exactly what heavan would be like?

bean-with-bacon

Having never been there, I do not know what heaven is like. :P

Plus one could argue that all the negative effects caused by spoiling and sheltering are a result of evil and hence wouldn't exist if god didn't allow evil.

bean-with-bacon

I'm not so sure of that.  The English word "appreciate" comes from the past participle of the Latin word for "appraise".  To appraise something means to ascertain its value.  Thus, one who appreciates something is one who understands its value.  And it's completely impossible to understand the value of something except when one understands its absence.  Without the ability to experience the absence of light, we would not understand color; it would instead just be a giant mass of white.

Of course, one could say, "well, why can't God just make us able to appreciate good without evil?"  And I obviously can't give a conclusive answer to this.  But the above makes me feel that it seems at least possible that such a thing might actually be a flat-out logical contradiction.

[QUOTE="ChiliDragon"] Lack of evil in Heaven = Caused by it being refused entry.domatron23

I'm not quite following this.

If you have free will in heaven then surely evil is possible?

Something being possible does not necessarily imply its presence.  It seems entirely possible that one in heaven would simply not want to commit evil - it's the desire to do so that is ultimately responsible for evil, not the possibility.

[QUOTE="domatron23"]

[QUOTE="ChiliDragon"] Lack of evil in Heaven = Caused by it being refused entry.GabuEx

I'm not quite following this.

If you have free will in heaven then surely evil is possible?

Something being possible does not necessarily imply its presence.  It seems entirely possible that one in heaven would simply not want to commit evil - it's the desire to do so that is ultimately responsible for evil, not the possibility.

Can't argue with that.

[QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"]

But isn't that exactly what heavan would be like?

GabuEx

Having never been there, I do not know what heaven is like. :P

Plus one could argue that all the negative effects caused by spoiling and sheltering are a result of evil and hence wouldn't exist if god didn't allow evil.

bean-with-bacon

I'm not so sure of that.  The English word "appreciate" comes from the past participle of the Latin word for "appraise".  To appraise something means to ascertain its value.  Thus, one who appreciates something is one who understands its value.  And it's completely impossible to understand the value of something except when one understands its absence.  Without the ability to experience the absence of light, we would not understand color; it would instead just be a giant mass of white.

Of course, one could say, "well, why can't God just make us able to appreciate good without evil?"  And I obviously can't give a conclusive answer to this.  But the above makes me feel that it seems at least possible that such a thing might actually be a flat-out logical contradiction.

But see I'm not convinced that is a valid argument, for one do we really need to experience the absence of something in order to appreciate and understand its value? Sure most people take things for granted but I don't think that means it is impossible to truly value something without it having to be absent at some point. We have the ability to visualise incredible things without actually witnessing them, the more we educate ourselves the greater that visualisation and understanding grows, it is one of the most basic principles of science, the ability to visualise things so far out and beyond what we have actually experienced on this earth, sure you could then argue that nothing beats the real thing but really the real thing is just neurons firing in response to sensory input, all able to be perfectly replicated without actually experiencing the 'real thing,' Why can that not be applied to appreciating things? Because really what you are suggesting is a limit to our mental capacities (which there obviously is but I don't think not being able to appreciate things is one of them).

Also why is there such extreme examples of evil? I for one am certain we can appreciate the good in life without the need for say, Hitler and Mengel.

Also why is there such extreme examples of evil? I for one am certain we can appreciate the good in life without the need for say, Hitler and Mengele.bean-with-bacon

[QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"]Also why is there such extreme examples of evil? I for one am certain we can appreciate the good in life without the need for say, Hitler and Mengele.ChiliDragon

He he he, sorry for the Hitler cliche, I use him as an example way to often :P

Although free will also has nothing to do with natural disasters however ;)

Also why do we have such a large capacity for evil? Having free will doesn't really answer the question, we "apparently" only have limited capacity for good, hence the reason why need jesus to save us or whatever but apparently that has no impact on our free will, so why such a large capacity for evil?

Also why do we have such a large capacity for evil? Having free will doesn't really answer the question, we "apparently" only have limited capacity for good, hence the reason why need jesus to save us or whatever but apparently that has no impact on our free will, so why such a large capacity for evil?bean-with-bacon

Of course extreme good is done, your example is an excellent one and yet if that very same man had been a jew/muslim/hindu/atheist or whatever he would be burning eternally right now (or whenever judgement comes), extreme good is different from unlimited good (or perfect goodness) which we are incapable because we are 'flawed'

Given that sin is regarded as all the same level of evil we are perfectly capable of 'perfect' evil, free will is given as an explanation for this, yet we are incapable of perfect goodness, and that has no effect on our free will what so ever? I don't see how that holds up.

Also the devil is just an angel, he is not omnipotent, the only reason these things happen then is because god allows the devil to do them, also god seems to be killing and punishing a lot more in the bible then the devil. ;)

Given that sin is regarded as all the same level of evil we are perfectly capable of 'perfect' evil, free will is given as an explanation for this, yet we are incapable of perfect goodness, and that has no effect on our free will what so ever? I don't see how that holds up.bean-with-bacon

[quote="bean-with-bacon"]Given that sin is regarded as all the same level of evil we are perfectly capable of 'perfect' evil, free will is given as an explanation for this, yet we are incapable of perfect goodness, and that has no effect on our free will what so ever? I don't see how that holds up.ChiliDragon

Pretty much yeah. :P

Ok, so we can be perfectly evil because we have free will, yet we cannot be perfectly 'good' however that apparently doesn't infringe our free will, why? So we can't choose to be perfectly good? I dunno but that seems to show we don't have complete free will after all. Now the obvious answer is we are 'flawed,' so pre-emptive strike on that, that would suggest our free will is 'flawed,' no?

Now I'm not expecting an in depth answer on the nuances of morality in the bible, we both have better things to do and quite frankly I don't even think my argument is that strong, and I'm not sure why I'm still trying to run with it, but hey, no harm in trying right?

Ok, so we can be perfectly evil because we have free will, yet we cannot be perfectly 'good' however that apparently doesn't infringe our free will, why? So we can't choose to be perfectly good? I dunno but that seems to show we don't have complete free will after all. Now the obvious answer is we are 'flawed,' so pre-emptive strike on that, that would suggest our free will is 'flawed,' no?bean-with-bacon

So doesn't that just come back too why god allows such extreme (to humans anyway) things like murder, torture, rape etc? So if not having certain options available to us does not infringe on our free will then why can free will be used as an excuse for those things happening when god could just take those options away and we could still understand good and evil because of other sins?

So doesn't that just come back too why god allows such extreme (to humans anyway) things like murder, torture, rape etc? So if not having certain options available to us does not infringe on our free will then why can free will be used as an excuse for those things happening when god could just take those options away and we could still understand good and evil because of other sins?

bean-with-bacon

Because if God starts taking options away we no longer have free will. :)

ChiliDragon

The options and alternatives we have available have no impact on that ability to choose.

ChiliDragon

These two statements seem to contradict.

It's one thing to freely choose between all available options... quite another to chose between "evil" and "more evil", while knowing that the option "good"is there, we just don't qualify for it.ChiliDragon

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.