Is there such a thing as free will?

Most of my life, I've believed in free will. However, now, I am less certain that such a thing exists. It seems like people act very predictably especially when you consider their family history. There are a few mavericks however, people who seem to act out of what would be expected for someone of their background, but that doesn't change the fact that there appears to be an inclination among individuals to act in a certain way because of their genetics and their upbringing. If said inclination exists, which it does, then that means that free will doesn't technically exist because it requires absolute freedom. Perhaps free will has some parameters where it can be affected by the environment. However, I don't buy this. Most likely, the reason why there are a few mavericks is because of some person stepping in to stop the chain. This person can be a politician, a teacher, a religious leader, or just a neighbor. These people clearly have an influence on the individual because the individual decides that he doesn't want to live a life like his parents.

If free will existed, I would believe that if you compare a upper-class family, a middle-class family, and a lower-class family, the children produced would be have an equal chance to produce an income of any range, regardless of the class they were born into, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the case. Of course, many people could say that the environment does have an effect on a person's capability, but not on their free will. An example would be that the upper-class family would be able to afford a computer and Internet so that their child could research articles on the Internet to do better on their homework whereas a child created in a lower-class family would not have access to a computer, or at least not so easily. They may be able to have access to a nearby public library that has a computer, but they may have to walk a long while, which will take time out of their research and the computers they have there aren't up to date.

By realizing this fact, I believe I'm making a good argument for socialism, but I don't believe socialism has been successful in any form. Capitalism seems to have worked for the U.S. very well or maybe my view on economics are naive. I can't help but to think that a reality without free will seems so depressing, as though the reason I'm typing this thread isn't because I freely choose to, but because of the mechanics of the universe or chance.

Also, is punishment necessary without free will? I think it is. If people are programmed to strive for pleasure and avoid pain or seclusion, imprisonment and the death penalty are still valid choices of punishment because they instill a sense of right and wrong within people. Some people may not see it the same way, since punishing something they ultimately did not freely chose to committ is wrong. This sounds quite absurd. Of course, I disagree with this consequence of there being no free will. For example, if there was a disease, which possesses no free will, that put humans on the brink of extinction, it would be appropiate to try to eradicate it.

That brings up another issue: right and wrong. If we did not freely hoose an action, then there is no right and wrong, anymore than a robot programmed to perform a certain action is not doing something right or wrong because it didn't freely chose that action. I think a lack of a free will is damaging to an objective code of morality. This is extremely depressing to me, because if there is no right and wrong, then there is no purpose for living in life ultimately.

Another thing, and I think this is popular in Catholic circles, is the belief that humans, by nature, act on habitual instinct and not on choice. Catholics might say that free will is a critical evaluation of yourself and the desire to do something different to change your life and this can explain why mavericks exist without the presence of an outsider to motivate them. In other words, people can have access to free will and act within their interests, whereas those that don't are doomed to live in a life of habitual instinct. I think this is the best argument for free will. The only problem is that it doesn't negate the impossibilities of a mentally handicapped person being capable of thinking clearly. I don't know if Catholics actually believed this as I haven't researched it yet, but it sounds like it would be something popular in Catholic circles.

Something else to consider is whether or not free will is compatible with paradise or heaven. I don't think it is. If humans have free will, then they have the capacity to do evil, so God couldn't create a paradise or even a heaven for people to have free will. If God took away their capacity to do evil, then that's not really free will, because their choices are cut in half.

Also, if humans have free will, I don't think there would be any doubt that other animals possess free will, but at various degrees, which throws back in the parameter argument. I don't see any logical argument backing up the proposition that humans are the only animals with free will, except perhaps the Catholic version that focuses on humans ignoring their instincts and striving for their better judgment.

Do you believe in free will that is completely free? Do you see free will as something that, to a degree, is affected by an environment? Do you believe free will is something that is accessible, but very hard to use? Or do you believe that free will is an illusion? Do other animals possess free will as well? What consequences do you think believing or not believing in free will have for society? Is this a good argument for socialism and against punishment? Do you believe free will can coexist with an objective code of morality?

tl;dr (until tomorrow)

I know I said this in the other thread, but I will put a response together for both this thread and that one tomorrow morning (if Minecraft doesn't consume it again).

To sum up my position, "yes and no." "Yes" in the sense we have an ability to make decisions, but "no" in the sense that the majority of our capabilities are predetermined by our genetic, learned psychological and cultural predispositions. For "free will" to exist, it requires that cause and effect do not. If our past actions have no effect on our futures, or the futures of others, then free will can exist, but our "choices" we have are very much limited. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that our "destiny" is already written, we have the means to choose, it is just there are only so many roads we can take, and if a road isn't connected to our path's continuum, we can't choose it.

By realizing this fact, I believe I'm making a good argument for socialism [...] Genetic_Code

foxhound_fox

My thoughts exactly. 

No.  Cause and effect is one of the most fundamental laws of the universe.  If something happens, it happens because something else caused it to happen.  The same initial conditions combined with the same stimuli create the same result.  Humans exist within the universe, and as such, they are as bound by cause and effect as anything else.  If a human does something, it is because something caused that human to do it.  Free will is, therefore, ultimately an illusion.

I don't believe that this is an argument against punishment, as people will often assert.  Rather, I believe it's an argument against certain motivations for punishment.  Punishing someone because "he deserves it" is an utterly invalid justification in the absence of free will, as that person was caused to do that for which he is being punished; it was not some sort of arbitrary choice.  On the other hand, punishing someone to bring about a change in behavior, to deter others from behaving similarly, or to protect society from the one being punished, are all perfectly valid reasons to punish someone, even in the absence of free will. 

For this reason, I believe that the abandonment of the idea that free will exists is, in fact, a positive in life.  It makes vengeance illogical and forgiveness logically necessary.

Somewhat.  We have a will and a capable of making decisions that we are fully accountable for making.  However, we have outside stimuli whether that be God, biology, or our social environment that motivates us towards certain directions.  In essense, we are in many ways bound towards have a specific will but are still fully accountable for following that will.

To give an example, we might be in a situation in which we feel as if we have no choice but to take a certain action.  However, in reality we do have a decision to make, we just often are not aware of that choice or we claim there is no such alternative due to denial or what have you.  Even though outside stimuli might motivate us toward a certain direction, we are still accountable and willfully choose to go into that direction.

Adding a more religious stance to this, I am one to believe that we are by default broken and our "bound" desire is to turn away from God.  We both willfully go into that direction and are motivated to do so due to outside stimuli.  However, through Christ's grace he gives us a "freed will" that allows us to be less bound to sin, death, and idolatry so that we might be capable of seeking after Christ willfully and obediently.

It is God alone who truly has an unbound free will and is capable of making any choice of his choosing.  It is through him that we are able to gain a more free will that is less bound to the obligations of the world and of the Law but more bound to loving God and loving man.

Somewhat.  We have a will and a capable of making decisions that we are fully accountable for making.  However, we have outside stimuli whether that be God, biology, or our social environment that motivates us towards certain directions.  In essense, we are in many ways bound towards have a specific will but are still fully accountable for following that will.

mindstorm

Agreed. 

 

To give an example, we might be in a situation in which we feel as if we have no choice but to take a certain action.  However, in reality we do have a decision to make, we just often are not aware of that choice or we claim there is no such alternative due to denial or what have you.  Even though outside stimuli might motivate us toward a certain direction, we are still accountable and willfully choose to go into that direction.

mindstorm

Yes, yes, YES! 

 

Adding a more religious stance to this, I am one to believe that we are by default broken and our "bound" desire is to turn away from God.  We both willfully go into that direction and are motivated to do so due to outside stimuli.  However, through Christ's grace he gives us a "freed will" that allows us to be less bound to sin, death, and idolatry so that we might be capable of seeking after Christ willfully and obediently.

mindstorm

How is this freed will different to people that don't sin due to human, moral considerations? 

 

It is God alone who truly has an unbound free will and is capable of making any choice of his choosing.  It is through him that we are able to gain a more free will that is less bound to the obligations of the world and of the Law but more bound to loving God and loving man.

mindstorm

A good argument for God's free will would be the seeming random, destructive and amoral nature of the universe, but that does not seem to fit with other claimed characteristics. I think you submit your own free will hugely under the pressure of religious adherence. At least I agreed with half of what you said though.

It doesn't matter whether or not we have free will. Either way we'd live our lives exactly the same way, and sufficiently answering the question wouldn't really change anything. 

 

It doesn't matter whether or not we have free will. Either way we'd live our lives exactly the same way, and sufficiently answering the question wouldn't really change anything. 

-Sun_Tzu-

While I initially agreed with this statement, I'm not sure if I do the more I think about it.

As a personal example, I find confidence in life because I put more emphasis on determinism/God's soveriegnty than free will.  As such, I do not freak out if I did not do a good job when sharing the Gospel because it is ultimately God who saves, not my intelligence or persuasive speech.  In other words, in light of God's soveriegnty I do not have to place my faith in my own ability.

There are others who place such an emphasis on God's soveriegnty that they choose inaction.  While this is typically just an excuse, some claim that we can live lazy lives because God will ultimately fulfill his plans for the world with our without us.  This line of thought has been extremely dominate in certain periods of church history.

As far as those who place more faith in our own free will, there are many possibly results.  Some end up becoming insecure when incapable of fulfilling a certain action, others become motivated to furthering their life goals because they believe they are fully capable.

Our philosophy of life very much influences the way we live our lives. 

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

 

It doesn't matter whether or not we have free will. Either way we'd live our lives exactly the same way, and sufficiently answering the question wouldn't really change anything. 

mindstorm

While I initially agreed with this statement, I'm not sure if I do the more I think about it.

As a personal example, I find confidence in life because I put more emphasis on determinism/God's soveriegnty than free will.  As such, I do not freak out if I did not do a good job when sharing the Gospel because it is ultimately God who saves, not my intelligence or persuasive speech.  In other words, in light of God's soveriegnty I do not have to place my faith in my own ability.

There are others who place such an emphasis on God's soveriegnty that they choose inaction.  While this is typically just an excuse, some claim that we can live lazy lives because God will ultimately fulfill his plans for the world with our without us.  This line of thought has been extremely dominate in certain periods of church history.

As far as those who place more faith in our own free will, there are many possibly results.  Some end up becoming insecure when incapable of fulfilling a certain action, others become motivated to furthering their life goals because they believe they are fully capable.

Our philosophy of life very much influences the way we live our lives. 

I find that it also has a pretty profound impact on the way that I look at other people, too.  When one believes in free will, then other people who do evil things do so because they choose to do so.  In this light, it can be very easy to feel great hatred towards people and think them to be "evil people", as why else would they choose to do evil things?  This can lead to a strong desire for vengeance, "justice", and the feeling that someone deserves to be hurt, to feel pain, to suffer, because they are "evil".

Conversely, I find that the recognition that others do evil things because their life has lead them to do so goes a long way towards enabling forgiveness and easily separating people from their actions.  And this I feel is a very mentally healthy state to be in.

I find that it also has a pretty profound impact on the way that I look at other people, too.  When one believes in free will, then other people who do evil things do so because they choose to do so.  In this light, it can be very easy to feel great hatred towards people and think them to be "evil people", as why else would they choose to do evil things?  This can lead to a strong desire for vengeance, "justice", and the feeling that someone deserves to be hurt, to feel pain, to suffer, because they are "evil".

Conversely, I find that the recognition that others do evil things because their life has lead them to do so goes a long way towards enabling forgiveness and easily separating people from their actions.  And this I feel is a very mentally healthy state to be in.

GabuEx

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I find that it also has a pretty profound impact on the way that I look at other people, too.  When one believes in free will, then other people who do evil things do so because they choose to do so.  In this light, it can be very easy to feel great hatred towards people and think them to be "evil people", as why else would they choose to do evil things?  This can lead to a strong desire for vengeance, "justice", and the feeling that someone deserves to be hurt, to feel pain, to suffer, because they are "evil".

Conversely, I find that the recognition that others do evil things because their life has lead them to do so goes a long way towards enabling forgiveness and easily separating people from their actions.  And this I feel is a very mentally healthy state to be in.

Gambler_3

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I find that it also has a pretty profound impact on the way that I look at other people, too.  When one believes in free will, then other people who do evil things do so because they choose to do so.  In this light, it can be very easy to feel great hatred towards people and think them to be "evil people", as why else would they choose to do evil things?  This can lead to a strong desire for vengeance, "justice", and the feeling that someone deserves to be hurt, to feel pain, to suffer, because they are "evil".

Conversely, I find that the recognition that others do evil things because their life has lead them to do so goes a long way towards enabling forgiveness and easily separating people from their actions.  And this I feel is a very mentally healthy state to be in.

GabuEx

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.

I find that it also has a pretty profound impact on the way that I look at other people, too. When one believes in free will, then other people who do evil things do so because they choose to do so. In this light, it can be very easy to feel great hatred towards people and think them to be "evil people", as why else would they choose to do evil things? This can lead to a strong desire for vengeance, "justice", and the feeling that someone deserves to be hurt, to feel pain, to suffer, because they are "evil".

Conversely, I find that the recognition that others do evil things because their life has lead them to do so goes a long way towards enabling forgiveness and easily separating people from their actions. And this I feel is a very mentally healthy state to be in.

GabuEx

I mean just because I am able to recognise that some people do bad things because their life lead them to doesnt mean that I dont believe in free will.Gambler_3

I don't think I ever said otherwise...

I can't help but agree with both of you. Aside from the whole God part. :Pfoxhound_fox

Don't worry, God loves you all the same. :P

After thinking about it a bit more, I think that "free will" is actually a lot like the statement that one can do anything if one really tries, in that both contain extremely ugly implications when one really thinks about it.  Just as the latter necessarily implies that anyone who fails at something must have not tried hard enough, the former also implies that anyone who does an evil act did so because they arbitrarily chose to do so.  Such mantras sound nice on paper, but thank God they're not actually true!

I find that it also has a pretty profound impact on the way that I look at other people, too.  When one believes in free will, then other people who do evil things do so because they choose to do so.  In this light, it can be very easy to feel great hatred towards people and think them to be "evil people", as why else would they choose to do evil things?  This can lead to a strong desire for vengeance, "justice", and the feeling that someone deserves to be hurt, to feel pain, to suffer, because they are "evil".

Conversely, I find that the recognition that others do evil things because their life has lead them to do so goes a long way towards enabling forgiveness and easily separating people from their actions.  And this I feel is a very mentally healthy state to be in.

GabuEx

While that is true, that also means that you can't reward someone a raise for productive work because they didn't choose to be productive.

Also, good and evil are entirely meaningless without free will, because humans have no free choice between the two alternatives. Morality couldn't even be subjective or relativistic, because good and evil are meaningless concepts regardless of what people or society assigns them to be.

I can't help but to think how negatively I view a universe without free will. It's so depressing because people can't strive for justice, equality, and liberty for any reason. To believe in free will to avoid such a view on the universe, however, would be an appeal to consequence. I want to believe in free will, but without a logical reason, I see no reason to.

While that is true, that also means that you can't reward someone a raise for productive work because they didn't choose to be productive.

Genetic_Code

Why not?  The knowledge that such a reward exists will result in workers modifying their behavior in the hopes of receiving such a reward.  As such, rewards (and, by a similar argument, punishments) can be used to modify people's behavior such that it is more in line with what you want it to be.

Of course, it does mean that you can't reward someone "because they deserve it", but I see no problem with this. 

 

Also, good and evil are entirely meaningless without free will, because humans have no free choice between the two alternatives. Morality couldn't even be subjective or relativistic, because good and evil are meaningless concepts regardless of what people or society assigns them to be.

Genetic_Code

I don't see how free choice affects in any way the meaningfulness of good or evil.

I can't help but to think how negatively I view a universe without free will. It's so depressing because people can't strive for justice, equality, and liberty for any reason. To believe in free will to avoid such a view on the universe, however, would be an appeal to consequence. I want to believe in free will, but without a logical reason, I see no reason to.

Genetic_Code

Can't strive for justice, equality, and liberty?  The absence of free will does not imply that one is a marionette on puppet strings, incapable of doing that which he wants to do. 

Why not?  The knowledge that such a reward exists will result in workers modifying their behavior in the hopes of receiving such a reward.  As such, rewards (and, by a similar argument, punishments) can be used to modify people's behavior such that it is more in line with what you want it to be.

Of course, it does mean that you can't reward someone "because they deserve it", but I see no problem with this. 

GabuEx

That's a better way of saying it, although I still don't understand the purpose of rewarding something when they don't deserve it. It sounds ridiculous to me.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Why not?  The knowledge that such a reward exists will result in workers modifying their behavior in the hopes of receiving such a reward.  As such, rewards (and, by a similar argument, punishments) can be used to modify people's behavior such that it is more in line with what you want it to be.

Of course, it does mean that you can't reward someone "because they deserve it", but I see no problem with this. 

Genetic_Code

That's a better way of saying it, although I still don't understand the purpose of rewarding something when they don't deserve it. It sounds ridiculous to me.

It's the same reason why one would do anything else: because doing so is the best option to bring oneself closer to achieving one's desired goals.

It depends entirely on how you define it and what factors you "allow" to affect your criteria of it, imo.

If you define it literally, then no I dont believe it exists.

Our philosophy of life does influence the way we live our lives profoundly, and thinking it over a little bit I do agree that sufficiently answering the question of free will would have some sort of impact as for how people live their lives, but I still maintain that it does not matter whether or not we have free will, because it's impossible to answer the question and the very concept of free will lacks any concrete definition, and because of that impossibility the question remains meaningless, because people will just believe what they want to believe to suit their own interests. 

Our philosophy of life does influence the way we live our lives profoundly, and thinking it over a little bit I do agree that sufficiently answering the question of free will would have some sort of impact as for how people live their lives, but I still maintain that it does not matter whether or not we have free will, because it's impossible to answer the question and the very concept of free will lacks any concrete definition, and because of that impossibility the question remains meaningless, because people will just believe what they want to believe to suit their own interests. 

-Sun_Tzu-

I agree that free will in the abstract is not well-defined, but if one establishes at the beginning of discussion what one means by free will then it is certainly possible to have a meaningful discussion about it.  And I don't believe the bolded section to be true; certainly I think people can fool themselves into thinking something, but I don't think people are able to actually acquire a bona fide belief in something that they would otherwise think not to be true simply because it being true would be a positive for them.