Irreligion and grace

Ever since I've been in school, I have always said grace before dinner. At first, my grace was, "God is good. God is great. Let us thank Him for our food. Amen," but then I changed it to something original, "Jesus is Lord. God is Father. Let us share our food from one to the other." I have abandoned Christianity for over two years, but only in the last year have my parents known that I'm no longer a Christian, but even then, my father still insists that I say grace even though I've told him that I don't want to. So, I've used the same one since I was younger, but every time I can't stand it, because I'm essentially lying.

This year, we're having Thanksgiving at my house and I know that my father will want me to say grace. Most of the people who know that I'm not a Christian are my parents and my siblings. Not many people outside of the nuclear family are aware that I'm not a Christian. I said grace for Thanksgiving last year, and it was so hard to make it all up, but I did it rather well, which is why I know that I would make a good liar if I wasn't so fiercely opposed to the idea of it. I can't stand lying, but it looks like I'll have to do it again.

However, I sometimes have dinner with my mom (my parents are divorced), and we don't say grace, and it's so awkward. When I have my own family, I would like to establish some tradition before eating. It's common decency to not eat before everyone is seated and served, and I would like to give thanks for everyone making it through the day enough to be thankful. Dante Gabriel Rossetti said, "The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has nobody to thank," but in this scenario, I think we can thank our family for being able to survive another day. The problem is, I'm having trouble thinking of a good grace to say that's not religious. I would be happy if you could pitch in. 

Anyway, that's enough talking about my situation. What's it like for you? Do you say grace? 

Well Christians in Greece dont say grace or anything before eating (they can if they wont to, but most dont). Most, usually do the cross with their hands. You know starting from forehead, then belly, then right shoulder and then left shoulder, thrice.

Also I dont agree with the quote: "The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has nobody to thank". Since when is thankfulness resticted on things that have a very distinct personal "character"? Like God.

Someone can be thankful of a situation, an event, another human being etc. In fact one could say that theists of all kinds actually are thankful to those things; they just are thankful of them collectively "under" the figure of their diety.

So, if I were a strong atheist, I wouldnt feel bad for supposedly having no animate being to pay special thanks to. And I mean that in an non-arrogant way. I dont find thanking god to be petty or what have you. I just think that the quote is very untrue and wishes to present the issue as if atheists lack a fundamental thing in their lives. ...or whatever.

PS: And yeah I do feel kinda weird on rare occasions when my aunt happens to be on the table (she is very religious but her character is very nice so she nevers comes off as a fundamental or "extreme") and we do saythe Greek ver. of grace.

I feel like I shouldnt be there really. That I should be sitting on the couch, let them finish and then come to the table when they are done with grace.

I dont feel as weird when I do the cross with my hands because its such a habit that I nevr pay attention if I do it say in case we go to church and everyone else it doing the cross with their hands.

Ever since I've been in school, I have always said grace before dinner. At first, my grace was, "God is good. God is great. Let us thank Him for our food. Amen," but then I changed it to something original, "Jesus is Lord. God is Father..." (I've forgotten the rest, which is weird considering that I never forget it, but I'll update it when I remember it.) I have abandoned Christianity for over two years, but only in the last year have my parents known that I'm no longer a Christian, but even then, my father still insists that I say grace even though I've told him that I don't want to. So, I've used the same one since I was younger, but every time I can't stand it, because I'm essentially lying.

This year, we're having Thanksgiving at my house and I know that my father will want me to say grace. Most of the people who know that I'm not a Christian are my parents and my siblings. Not many people outside of the nuclear family are aware that I'm not a Christian. I said grace for Thanksgiving last year, and it was so hard to make it all up, but I did it rather well, which is why I know that I would make a good liar if I wasn't so fiercely opposed to the idea of it. I can't stand lying, but it looks like I'll have to do it again.

However, I sometimes have dinner with my mom (my parents are divorced), and we don't say grace, and it's so awkward. When I have my own family, I would like to establish some tradition before eating. It's common decency to not eat before everyone is seated and served, and I would like to give thanks for everyone making it through the day enough to be thankful. Dante Gabriel Rossetti said, "The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has nobody to thank," but in this scenario, I think we can thank our family for being able to survive another day. The problem is, I'm having trouble thinking of a good grace to say that's not religious. I would be happy if you could pitch in.

Anyway, that's enough talking about my situation. What's it like for you? Do you say grace?

Genetic_Code

Thank your family members for coming, thank those who cooked the food for providing it and thank your entire family for the love and support they've given you and your other family members over the years. I don't see the need to include God in the mix if you don't want to. Thanksgiving is a much more secular holiday now anyways... and thanks are more better directed towards real people than conceptualizations of the supernatural.foxhound_fox

I'll do that, and even though there's a chance that my family might get offended for me not mentioning God, so what? They can have someone else say grace if they're that offended. I don't have to say grace.

I don't like that first option. "Saying grace" was merely a Jewish tradition that passed over when Christianity arose. Nowhere in the Bible does God say you have to say a prayer before eating. The whole idea that if you don't do it, you're not faithful is ludicrous.

Anyway, it seems you've made your decision. However, I have to ask: are you going to try to word the prayer in a manner so that your family members are mostly assured you are thanking their God, or are you to ostensibly show you are actually thanking the people themselves instead of (in your mind) speaking to the air? Forgive me if the question is too personal. You don't have to respond, I'm just curious.

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]Thank your family members for coming, thank those who cooked the food for providing it and thank your entire family for the love and support they've given you and your other family members over the years. I don't see the need to include God in the mix if you don't want to. Thanksgiving is a much more secular holiday now anyways... and thanks are more better directed towards real people than conceptualizations of the supernatural.Genetic_Code

I'll do that, and even though there's a chance that my family might get offended for me not mentioning God, so what? They can have someone else say grace if they're that offended. I don't have to say grace.

Anyway, it seems you've made your decision. However, I have to ask: are you going to try to word the prayer in a manner so that your family members are mostly assured you are thanking their God, or are you to ostensibly show you are actually thanking the people themselves instead of (in your mind) speaking to the air? Forgive me if the question is too personal. You don't have to respond, I'm just curious.

homegirl2180

I'll leave it up to interpretation. I won't go out of my way to thank God or hint at that.

Like any other form of prayer, I believe that saying grace is stupid. I don't have a problem if others want to do it, but there's no way that I will participate in a ceremony that comes from a religion.

Your solution is simple; stand up for yourself. If you don't have a problem with being willfully dishonest, that's your prerogative. That could snowball into bigger problems later on in life, though. Others will take advantage of you over and over again.

Saying grace and being thankful to God are habitual re-enforcements for belief.

I have to force myself to stop saying "bless you" to people when they sneeze. The programed response compulsion to say that means I do usually come out with "gesundheit" instead, while wishing I'd stayed silent. (Not many people know how to handle "gesundheit"!) There is no equivalent response when people cough or sniff, yet I continuously berate myself every time anyone sneezes.

We don't have "Thanksgiving" in England, but obviously some do say grace at mealtimes. I think "toasting" has probably superceded saying grace in most cases, where "cheers" raplaces "amen", after some pledge of honour is made. This works well; as long as there's some glasses of liquid at the table - but not necessarily alcohol. 

Would making a toast instead of saying grace be considered heretical?

I say grace at the family christmas dinner, it's more of tradition then religious, and it's just not worth the hassle to resist saying it.

I always just kind of sit in an awkward silence when grace is being said. I've never been asked to say it and if I was asked I'd probably refuse.

A more common problem for me though is prayer. I go to a bible study every fortnight and they always have opening and closing prayers. Everyone else has their eyes closed and I just end up sitting there like some kind of pervert watching them all. It's a tad bit uncomfortable.

Would making a toast instead of saying grace be considered heretical? RationalAtheist

It's virtually the same thing as a nonreligious grace. I don't think I'll actually say "cheers" though. 

I don't know why but I am really annoyed by this practice. Why? God doesn't put food on your table, my parents do.woonsa

Though you could go one step further: what gave them the ability to find a job that allows them to make a sufficient amount of money to feed their children?

At the end of the day, it's really quite arrogant for humans to act as though everything they have is entirely their doing.  As I've said elsewhere, we do not choose our parents, our hometown, our community, our schools, or really anything at all that ultimately shapes us into who we are.  Everything that we have that truly matters is a blessing that we did not choose nor did we earn, and which could have just as easily been different.

[QUOTE="woonsa"]I don't know why but I am really annoyed by this practice. Why? God doesn't put food on your table, my parents do.GabuEx

Though you could go one step further: what gave them the ability to find a job that allows them to make a sufficient amount of money to feed their children?

At the end of the day, it's really quite arrogant for humans to act as though everything they have is entirely their doing.  As I've said elsewhere, we do not choose our parents, our hometown, our community, our schools, or really anything at all that ultimately shapes us into who we are.  Everything that we have that truly matters is a blessing that we did not choose nor did we earn, and which could have just as easily been different.

I myself thank nature but I dont think it makes much sense:? since I doubt it was a conscious decision on nature's part to give me all that I have. All we can do is give back nature and especially be good to the people around us and take more care of the more unfortunate ones..

The problem is who do we thank for all those chance blessings?

I myself thank nature but I dont think it makes much sense:? since I doubt it was a conscious decision on nature's part to give me all that I have. All we can do is give back nature and especially be good to the people around us and take more care of the more unfortunate ones..

Gambler_3

I don't think it's important whom you thank.  I think that what's important is the recognition that nobody on Earth has truly "earned" what they have.  They all have attained what they have in life ultimately through means that were provided to them for free, without being asked, with no strings attached.  If you want to thank God, thank God; if you want to thank nature or the universe, do so.  The point of the matter is to be humble and respectful in the understanding that there is no great gap between you and the lesser fortunate.  Had your circumstances been different, you could have just as easily been in their position today.

[QUOTE="woonsa"]I don't know why but I am really annoyed by this practice. Why? God doesn't put food on your table, my parents do.GabuEx

Though you could go one step further: what gave them the ability to find a job that allows them to make a sufficient amount of money to feed their children?

At the end of the day, it's really quite arrogant for humans to act as though everything they have is entirely their doing. As I've said elsewhere, we do not choose our parents, our hometown, our community, our schools, or really anything at all that ultimately shapes us into who we are. Everything that we have that truly matters is a blessing that we did not choose nor did we earn, and which could have just as easily been different.

You are missing the point here. I thank my parents for the food, my parents thank whoever gave them the ability to find the job. And besides, if it weren't for the hardwork and will of my parents, their ability to find that job would be for naught.

---

My point is this, it's more logical to thank somebody who intentionally helped you. Why thank some random luck?

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

The problem is who do we thank for all those chance blessings?

I myself thank nature but I dont think it makes much sense:? since I doubt it was a conscious decision on nature's part to give me all that I have. All we can do is give back nature and especially be good to the people around us and take more care of the more unfortunate ones..

GabuEx

I don't think it's important whom you thank.  I think that what's important is the recognition that nobody on Earth has truly "earned" what they have.  They all have attained what they have in life ultimately through means that were provided to them for free, without being asked, with no strings attached.  If you want to thank God, thank God; if you want to thank nature or the universe, do so.  The point of the matter is to be humble and respectful in the understanding that there is no great gap between you and the lesser fortunate.  Had your circumstances been different, you could have just as easily been in their position today.

There are a lot of successful people who are who they are because they've chose to work hard and dedicate themself to a cause; there are those who have risen from misfortune and sqaulor to achieve great jobs.

All men aren't equal; there are those who do and those that don't; those who work hard, and those who choose to squandor their abilities.

Whilst I'd certainly agree with you that it would indeed be arrogant to state that someone's situation is purely down to their own will, I'd also have a problem with the other extreme in saying that all of one's virtues and posessions are a result of divine intervention or nature etc.

There are a lot of successful people who are who they are because they've chose to work hard and dedicate themself to a cause; there are those who have risen from misfortune and sqaulor to achieve great jobs.

All men aren't equal; there are those who do and those that don't; those who work hard, and those who choose to squandor their abilities.

MetalGear_Ninty

Why did they work hard, and why did others not?  Because something in their lives either led them towards or away from a good work ethic.  That, too, was something that they came to through factors outside their control.

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

The problem is who do we thank for all those chance blessings?

I myself thank nature but I dont think it makes much sense:? since I doubt it was a conscious decision on nature's part to give me all that I have. All we can do is give back nature and especially be good to the people around us and take more care of the more unfortunate ones..

GabuEx

I don't think it's important whom you thank.  I think that what's important is the recognition that nobody on Earth has truly "earned" what they have.  They all have attained what they have in life ultimately through means that were provided to them for free, without being asked, with no strings attached.  If you want to thank God, thank God; if you want to thank nature or the universe, do so.  The point of the matter is to be humble and respectful in the understanding that there is no great gap between you and the lesser fortunate.  Had your circumstances been different, you could have just as easily been in their position today.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Whilst I'd certainly agree with you that it would indeed be arrogant to state that someone's situation is purely down to their own will, I'd also have a problem with the other extreme in saying that all of one's virtues and posessions are a result of divine intervention or nature etc.

There are a lot of successful people who are who they are because they've chose to work hard and dedicate themself to a cause; there are those who have risen from misfortune and sqaulor to achieve great jobs.

All men aren't equal; there are those who do and those that don't; those who work hard, and those who choose to squandor their abilities.

GabuEx

Why did they work hard, and why did others not? Because something in their lives either led them towards or away from a good work ethic. That, too, was something that they came to through factors outside their control.

I can see where this is going; tbh, I am reaching my conclusions on the basis that we have free will, whilst you reach your conclusions on the basis that we don't -- I suposse I would come to the same conclusion as you about this if I did indeed believe that free will didn't exist.