Free will

An interesting thought came into mind recently, gonna share it.

Say God's existence was a fact (hypothetically) and he gave us free will (choice to choose between good and evil). We all know of the countless horrors and atrocities that have happened over the course of human history, war, murder, general evil things~ So now for the question.

Do you think free will was too much responsibility for man to handle? Would it be better if we were programmed to be good and not commit evil? but in turn jeopardize our free will? Or do you simply beleive God was in the wrong for giving us choice?

Express on this.

In other words we wouldn't be anything more than just robots in a car factory.

Also, without free will all these scriptures, religious teachings, heaven and hell would be meaningless, because we would simply act according to the brain (a circuit to be more specific) and nothing else would matter.

I suppose he could have made us without freewill nor the want for freedom and we would have been blissfully ignorant.

But seeing as how you are trying to get us thinking about a theodicy I may as well agree with you. I would prefer to have freewill plus the consequences that follow rather than not.

God could have given us free will, and simply not have made humans so selfish and unpleasant.Funky_Llama

Hmmm, perhaps its not that he made us that way, but so much as it is humans became that way, and you also gotta love the self control he's given us.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]God could have given us free will, and simply not have made humans so selfish and unpleasant.123625

Hmmm, perhaps its not that he made us that way, but so much as it is humans became that way, and you also gotta love the self control he's given us.

[QUOTE="123625"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]God could have given us free will, and simply not have made humans so selfish and unpleasant.Funky_Llama

Hmmm, perhaps its not that he made us that way, but so much as it is humans became that way, and you also gotta love the self control he's given us.

I wasn't refferring to impulses, but being selfish and unpleasent. Also gotta love that we were given self control.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="123625"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]God could have given us free will, and simply not have made humans so selfish and unpleasant.123625

Hmmm, perhaps its not that he made us that way, but so much as it is humans became that way, and you also gotta love the self control he's given us.

I wasn't refferring to impulses, but being selfish and unpleasent. Also gotta love that we were given self control.

May I say that you cannot have one without the other. All these different qualities we have like: free will, selfishness, self control, impulses, etc are all part of the one single equation, where if one is taken out another part on the other side will have to cease to exist. Such as selfishness. Doesn't it seem like both selfishness and our survival instinct are somewhat on the same line? I know it's a massive stretch of their individual meanings but can you say our will to survive is selfless ? 

[QUOTE="123625"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="123625"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]God could have given us free will, and simply not have made humans so selfish and unpleasant.7guns

Hmmm, perhaps its not that he made us that way, but so much as it is humans became that way, and you also gotta love the self control he's given us.

I wasn't refferring to impulses, but being selfish and unpleasent. Also gotta love that we were given self control.

May I say that you cannot have one without the other. All these different qualities we have like: free will, selfishness, self control, impulses, etc are all part of the one single equation, where if one is taken out another part on the other side will have to cease to exist. Such as selfishness. Doesn't it seem like both selfishness and our survival instinct are somewhat on the same line? I know it's a massive stretch of their individual meanings but can you say our will to survive is selfless ?

Technically wanting to survive is selfish, but it doesn't mean its a bad thing.

[QUOTE="7guns"][QUOTE="123625"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="123625"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]God could have given us free will, and simply not have made humans so selfish and unpleasant.123625

Hmmm, perhaps its not that he made us that way, but so much as it is humans became that way, and you also gotta love the self control he's given us.

I wasn't refferring to impulses, but being selfish and unpleasent. Also gotta love that we were given self control.

May I say that you cannot have one without the other. All these different qualities we have like: free will, selfishness, self control, impulses, etc are all part of the one single equation, where if one is taken out another part on the other side will have to cease to exist. Such as selfishness. Doesn't it seem like both selfishness and our survival instinct are somewhat on the same line? I know it's a massive stretch of their individual meanings but can you say our will to survive is selfless ?

Technically wanting to survive is selfish, but it doesn't mean its a bad thing.

Exactly my point!

Then may be selfishness isn't totally a bad thing. Sure, there are some boundaries to be maintained but I can't quite figure out how would it be like to be selfless.

Then may be selfishness isn't totally a bad thing. Sure, there are some boundaries to be maintained but I can't quite figure out how would it be like to be selfless.

7guns

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="123625"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]God could have given us free will, and simply not have made humans so selfish and unpleasant.123625

Hmmm, perhaps its not that he made us that way, but so much as it is humans became that way, and you also gotta love the self control he's given us.

I wasn't refferring to impulses, but being selfish and unpleasent. Also gotta love that we were given self control.

[QUOTE="7guns"]

Then may be selfishness isn't totally a bad thing. Sure, there are some boundaries to be maintained but I can't quite figure out how would it be like to be selfless.

Funky_Llama

Yep!

All I'm saying that both sides of the equation has to be balanced.

Love and hate, pain and pleasure, happiness and misery, rich and poor, survival instinct and self interest are all relative terms. They all exist in groups of two or sometimes even more. How can it be possible to love but unable to hate, be happy but not sad? How is it possible that you just fight off a burgler to save yourself and your money risking your life and then donated the money to some stranger who doesn't have enough to buy some dvds?

I think balance is the key!

I don't beleive in a true free will, but suppose we do have free will, it most certainly exist on a spectrum and is not an either or situation.  We have basic human drives, motivations and wants that do not arrise by will.  All of these things currupt the idea of free will at least to some degree, so "god" could tweek the motivators and tweek free will, assuming we have some level of it. 

And as for free will being like an experiment for god, it would imply that god is not omnicient, because he doesn't already know what is going to happen.  Why not cut to the chase and get on with the judging of all the people who ever lived as soon as he creates them, rather than waiting for them to go through the motions of a game where he set up the rules.

[QUOTE="123625"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="123625"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]God could have given us free will, and simply not have made humans so selfish and unpleasant.Funky_Llama

Hmmm, perhaps its not that he made us that way, but so much as it is humans became that way, and you also gotta love the self control he's given us.

I wasn't refferring to impulses, but being selfish and unpleasent. Also gotta love that we were given self control.

The bottom line is, God created a species that was perfect. Whatever happened after that point is down to us. 

The bottom line is, God created a species that was perfect. Whatever happened after that point is down to us. 

Lansdowne5

And as for free will being like an experiment for god, it would imply that god is not omnicient, because he doesn't already know what is going to happen. Why not cut to the chase and get on with the judging of all the people who ever lived as soon as he creates them, rather than waiting for them to go through the motions of a game where he set up the rules. Sitri_

HI. I believe that people have a tendence to label things generaly. I've used that example before: Suppose there is an infant that through all of his life people tell him "you are stupid" "you are worthless" etc. wouldn't the child actualy act like a stupid and worthless person or at least won't he always feel the fear that he may actualy be those things and won't those fears lead him sometimes to fail.

So once religion labels people as sinners because of the symbolic story (not an actual fact) of Adam and Eve, won't most people fear that evil will be part of their nature no matter what their efforts are? Religion does give advice on how to achieve this but this feat in the end by the scripts themselves is pictured as something so hard to achieve that you don't know if it's worth it. So, the problem is not free will, but the way the notions of evil and good have been preached to people. The Good being a hard way of sacrifices with the subtitles being heaven, and the Evil something you already have.

HI. I believe that people have a tendence to label things generaly. I've used that example before: Suppose there is an infant that through all of his life people tell him "you are stupid" "you are worthless" etc. wouldn't the child actualy act like a stupid and worthless person or at least won't he always feel the fear that he may actualy be those things and won't those fears lead him sometimes to fail.

So once religion labels people as sinners because of the symbolic story (not an actual fact) of Adam and Eve, won't most people fear that evil will be part of their nature no matter what their efforts are? Religion does give advice on how to achieve this but this feat in the end by the scripts themselves is pictured as something so hard to achieve that you don't know if it's worth it. So, the problem is not free will, but the way the notions of evil and good have been preached to people. The Good being a hard way of sacrifices with the subtitles being heaven, and the Evil something you already have.

Teenaged

I see your point and I agree with you on this puzzle but there is no absolute free will either. I mean something has to govern our will. What will be the use of our free will if there is nothing to motivate us to use our free will to do anything? Some things will always govern our free-will or will...or whatever. For example, a person will always try to save himself when attacked by a tiger. That much can be counted on but will he run or take a stand or get a shot gun to shoot the tiger or jump in the pool full of crocodiles because he can deal with crocodiles but not tiger, we don't know for sure!  

This term is dang confusing!:x It shouldn't exist! 

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

HI. I believe that people have a tendence to label things generaly. I've used that example before: Suppose there is an infant that through all of his life people ... The Good being a hard way of sacrifices with the subtitles being heaven, and the Evil something you already have.

7guns

I see your point and I agree with you on this puzzle but there is no absolute free will either. I mean something has to govern our will. What will be the use of our free will if there is nothing to motivate us to use our free will to do anything? Some things will always govern our free-will or will...or whatever. For example, a person will always try to save himself when attacked by a tiger. That much can be counted on but will he run or take a stand or get a shot gun to shoot the tiger or jump in the pool full of crocodiles because he can deal with crocodiles but not tiger, we don't know for sure!

This term is dang confusing!:x It shouldn't exist!

You mean that hard times and perilous situations are the ones that challenge us to use our free will? So you are implying that if people didn't think evil was in them then there would be nothing for them to motivate them to do good? I personaly think that everything is a habit. We are used to only hang on to the challenging moments (I've read posts from people saying life would be boring without conflict! And they are right. But isn't that valid because we are used to deal with conflict?) Once you get rid of the conflict (don't ask me how I just want to show you what's beyond) there are other things you can challenge your brain and free will with without necessarily having something to threaten you to do it. You'll say that that's part of being human (the need of a fear to motivate) I just believe that there is an ideal "version" of human beings that can be achieved on this life not the next and certainly not with the help of religion.Teenaged

I didn't mean that. Some things motivate people to do good things but evil doesn't have to be one of those things. Moreover, the word "evil" gets it's meaning from scriptures. So this idea of evil inside us won't motivate everyone.

Yes, we are creatures of habit and we are comfortable in doings things we've done before but I don't think this law of habit apply to most situationsonly only by itself.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]You ...help of religion.7guns

I didn't mean that. Some things motivate people to do good things but evil doesn't have to be one of those things. Moreover, the word "evil" gets it's meaning from scriptures. So this idea of evil inside us won't motivate everyone.

Yes, we are creatures of habit and we are comfortable in doings things we've done before but I don't think this law of habit apply to most situationsonly only by itself.