Hi there, I've been away a few days so only got chance now to read your post, and I agree with this. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree with this one.I feel like my argument, showing ethics as being tightly concerned with science now as it was with religion then, is still going straight, but I'd be delighted to settle our debate by bluntly disagreeing with you on this occasion, then ignoring your subsequent posts on this matter.
RationalAtheist
Arguments Against God.
My reasons for disbelief in God is that I find it highly illogical and improbable that an omnipotent being would create this entire world just to test us. And I find it more comfortable to believe that the Big Bang Theory occurred than believing this being simply existed and transcends time and space.Maqda7Then how did the big bang appear? You need something for an explosion to start.
Then how did the big bang appear? You need something for an explosion to start. mariostar0001
The big bang was not an explosion; it is an exponential expansion of spacetime from a non-definable point. And why is God the default answer as to why it happened?
Because you either believe that matter is eternal, or that God is, or that matter wasn't, then was. Which sounds more plausible? That a all-knowing, all-being Creator has always existed, or that matter has always existed without managing to run out, or that matter wasn't there, then was. If there was nothing before the big bang, how did it happen? How could it have happened without anything to cause it? mariostar0001
Or you believe/accept that due to quantum mechanics, matter came into existence during the big bang. This is not a matter of "either/or." The model that does not involve God sounds much more plausible, given that there is a massive compendium of knowledge and facts regarding the scientific nature of the universe, and not a single one in support of the religious model of the universe.
There actually was something before the big bang, this is a common misconception. There was a singularity of infinite mass and infinite density that somehow caused the big bang to occur and the current universe to form. What exactly came before it (which there was indeed something, since there is no such thing as creation ex nihilo in science), is unknowable, since our understanding is based on this current model of the universe.
But I reiterate, why is God the more reasonable default position regarding the origin of the universe? Why must God be injected into creation/formation when there is no requirement for it to be there?
Because if God didn't create the quantum physics, who did? How did it come into being, or if it was always there, how come it didn't run itself out of energy to stay alive? Energy left on it's own deteriorates, and if it was infinite matter it would have deteriorated an infinite time ago. But if there was a God he could have existed infinitely because he wouldn't have to be made of any form of matter. mariostar0001
Why does anyone or anything have to create it? Why can it just not exist by itself without the conscious involvement of someone or something else?
You still haven't answered my question... why is God the more reasonable default position to the universe forming naturally?
Do you have an answer for me, or do you wish to continue circling around the same point that there is no way of knowing what happened before the big bang (aside from that, scientifically, there was most definitely not "nothing")?
I say that God is more likely to have been around than matter because matter is incapable of existing forever without degrading into not existing, matter left alone will fall apart unless taken care of. If there was nothing to take care of the matter it would have degraded. mariostar0001
Okay, you've answered my question. Now, do you have any proof that makes this a more reasonable position to take, besides your own personal opinion? And which "God" are you talking about? A theist God? A deist God? The Christian God? The Hindu God? You will now need to define "God" in order for your argument to be validated.
The Christian God, who is all-knowing and all-powerful, who always existed because He is God, and is capable of all things. mariostar0001
Okay, you have established a definition of God, now prove to me why this God creating the universe is a more plausible position to hold than it just forming naturally.
I say that God is more likely to have been around than matter because matter is incapable of existing forever without degrading into not existing, matter left alone will fall apart unless taken care of.mariostar0001
You've said this a few times now and I'm wondering what your reasoning behind it is. I think you're perhaps invoking the second law of thermodynamics, am I correct?
If you are then you need to also look at the first law of thermodynamics.
He says in His word that he cares for us, He sent His son to die for us, that's why He cares.How do you know that god is concerned with humans? What if we are to god what bacteria is to us? Just because you find it more plausible that god exists, how can you even claim to know even 1% of what that god is?
Gambler_3
[QUOTE="mariostar0001"]The Christian God, who is all-knowing and all-powerful, who always existed because He is God, and is capable of all things. foxhound_fox
Okay, you have established a definition of God, now prove to me why this God creating the universe is a more plausible position to hold than it just forming naturally.Because it cannot form itself naturally, matter cannot do anything on it's own, non-living matter cannot do anything to itself, it must be manipulated by another force.
[QUOTE="mariostar0001"]I say that God is more likely to have been around than matter because matter is incapable of existing forever without degrading into not existing, matter left alone will fall apart unless taken care of.domatron23
You've said this a few times now and I'm wondering what your reasoning behind it is. I think you're perhaps invoking the second law of thermodynamics, am I correct?
If you are then you need to also look at the first law of thermodynamics.
You're right about that, I always forget to look it up. By the way, how come you have the same sig as the leader of the Christian Union?Because it cannot form itself naturally, matter cannot do anything on it's own, non-living matter cannot do anything to itself, it must be manipulated by another force. mariostar0001
And the evidence you have to support this position is...?
[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]He says in His word that he cares for us, He sent His son to die for us, that's why He cares. Who the hell is this he? Where can I meet this he?How do you know that god is concerned with humans? What if we are to god what bacteria is to us? Just because you find it more plausible that god exists, how can you even claim to know even 1% of what that god is?
mariostar0001
And He says in the quran that He doesnt have a son. Quran >>>>>>> Bible. Prove me wrong!!!
It's all around you. Has any matter, matter that was not manipulated by any outside force, ever done anything on its own? mariostar0001
The planets in our solar system accreted by themselves as a result of gravity and momentum. The Bible doesn't tell us the process in how God created the planets... so we had to come up with a more reasonable explanation as to why it happened.
The universe is one big ball of matter that manipulates itself all the time. Can you give any evidence/examples that supports how matter can in fact NOT manipulate itself without an outside force acting upon it?
[QUOTE="mariostar0001"][QUOTE="Gambler_3"]He says in His word that he cares for us, He sent His son to die for us, that's why He cares. Who the hell is this he? Where can I meet this he?How do you know that god is concerned with humans? What if we are to god what bacteria is to us? Just because you find it more plausible that god exists, how can you even claim to know even 1% of what that god is?
Gambler_3
And He says in the quran that He doesnt have a son. Quran >>>>>>> Bible. Prove me wrong!!!
Now you're just making baseless statements. He is God, and He can hear you all the time, you just have to talk to Him. He is not the he in the Koran, that is Allah, God of the Muslims, the god who favors his people sending airplanes into our major landmarks so that we may die. The Koran states that no one can guarantee making it into eternity unless they die in a holy war, so they will attack with the intent of dying and killing as many of non-Muslims as possible to insure that they make it into eternity. Tell me how that's better then Christianity? Even if it is the extremist view, it's not uncommon, or we wouldn't have had 9/11.[QUOTE="mariostar0001"]It's all around you. Has any matter, matter that was not manipulated by any outside force, ever done anything on its own? foxhound_fox
The planets in our solar system accreted by themselves as a result of gravity and momentum. The Bible doesn't tell us the process in how God created the planets... so we had to come up with a more reasonable explanation as to why it happened.
The universe is one big ball of matter that manipulates itself all the time. Can you give any evidence/examples that supports how matter can in fact NOT manipulate itself without an outside force acting upon it?Matter did not manipulate itself, it says in the Bible that God created the Sun, moon, and stars, and in those days they likely could not tell the difference between stars and planets, it is very likely that stars was referring to planets as well, and other celestial bodies. And you cannot have evidence that something does not happen, if it has not happened, that is your evidence.
He is not the he in the Koran, that is Allah, God of the Muslims, the god who favors his people sending airplanes into our major landmarks so that we may die. The Koran states that no one can guarantee making it into eternity unless they die in a holy war, so they will attack with the intent of dying and killing as many of non-Muslims as possible to insure that they make it into eternity. Tell me how that's better then Christianity? Even if it is the extremist view, it's not uncommon, or we wouldn't have had 9/11. mariostar0001
The God in the Torah, the New Testament and the Qur'an is one in the same God. God has many different names, but the conceptualization behind it is the same.
And your incredibly harsh generalizations about the Muslim people are quite abrasive. And your misinformation about extremism is also quite abrasive.
Matter did not manipulate itself, it says in the Bible that God created the Sun, moon, and stars, and in those days they likely could not tell the difference between stars and planets, it is very likely that stars was referring to planets as well, and other celestial bodies. And you cannot have evidence that something does not happen, if it has not happened, that is your evidence. mariostar0001
Care to point out in the Bible where it says HOW God created the Sun, moon, stars, planets and everything else? I'm not asking for if he did it or not, I'm asking for an explanation as to HOW he did it.
Actually, the evidence we have is in favour of my position; that matter can manipulate itself without an outside force acting upon it. Your position however; that matter cannot manipulate without an outside force (that force also being conscious) acting upon it, is unsupported.
[QUOTE="Gambler_3"][QUOTE="mariostar0001"][QUOTE="Gambler_3"]He says in His word that he cares for us, He sent His son to die for us, that's why He cares. Who the hell is this he? Where can I meet this he?How do you know that god is concerned with humans? What if we are to god what bacteria is to us? Just because you find it more plausible that god exists, how can you even claim to know even 1% of what that god is?
mariostar0001
And He says in the quran that He doesnt have a son. Quran >>>>>>> Bible. Prove me wrong!!!
Now you're just making baseless statements. He is God, and He can hear you all the time, you just have to talk to Him. He is not the he in the Koran, that is Allah, God of the Muslims, the god who favors his people sending airplanes into our major landmarks so that we may die. The Koran states that no one can guarantee making it into eternity unless they die in a holy war, so they will attack with the intent of dying and killing as many of non-Muslims as possible to insure that they make it into eternity. Tell me how that's better then Christianity? Even if it is the extremist view, it's not uncommon, or we wouldn't have had 9/11. No he IS he in the quran as well. The christian god does not own the trademark of "He".:|For a muslim allah is the He.
WTF? I am as anti Islam as they get but it sure as hell doesnt support suicide bombing in any way. Why dont you bother researching a little? Even the extremist most interpretations of the quran DONOT advocate suicide bombing.
And how is my statement any more baseless than yours? What's your base for claiming the bible's superiority over the quran?
[QUOTE="mariostar0001"]He is not the he in the Koran, that is Allah, God of the Muslims, the god who favors his people sending airplanes into our major landmarks so that we may die. The Koran states that no one can guarantee making it into eternity unless they die in a holy war, so they will attack with the intent of dying and killing as many of non-Muslims as possible to insure that they make it into eternity. Tell me how that's better then Christianity? Even if it is the extremist view, it's not uncommon, or we wouldn't have had 9/11. foxhound_fox
The God in the Torah, the New Testament and the Qur'an is one in the same God. God has many different names, but the conceptualization behind it is the same.
And your incredibly harsh generalizations about the Muslim people are quite abrasive. And your misinformation about extremism is also quite abrasive.
Matter did not manipulate itself, it says in the Bible that God created the Sun, moon, and stars, and in those days they likely could not tell the difference between stars and planets, it is very likely that stars was referring to planets as well, and other celestial bodies. And you cannot have evidence that something does not happen, if it has not happened, that is your evidence. mariostar0001
Care to point out in the Bible where it says HOW God created the Sun, moon, stars, planets and everything else? I'm not asking for if he did it or not, I'm asking for an explanation as to HOW he did it.
Actually, the evidence we have is in favour of my position; that matter can manipulate itself without an outside force acting upon it. Your position however; that matter cannot manipulate without an outside force (that force also being conscious) acting upon it, is unsupported.He thought that it would appear and it did, He was and is in charge of everything and decides how all things work, He decided it would happen and it did.
[QUOTE="mariostar0001"][QUOTE="Gambler_3"][QUOTE="mariostar0001"][QUOTE="Gambler_3"]He says in His word that he cares for us, He sent His son to die for us, that's why He cares. Who the hell is this he? Where can I meet this he?How do you know that god is concerned with humans? What if we are to god what bacteria is to us? Just because you find it more plausible that god exists, how can you even claim to know even 1% of what that god is?
Gambler_3
And He says in the quran that He doesnt have a son. Quran >>>>>>> Bible. Prove me wrong!!!
Now you're just making baseless statements. He is God, and He can hear you all the time, you just have to talk to Him. He is not the he in the Koran, that is Allah, God of the Muslims, the god who favors his people sending airplanes into our major landmarks so that we may die. The Koran states that no one can guarantee making it into eternity unless they die in a holy war, so they will attack with the intent of dying and killing as many of non-Muslims as possible to insure that they make it into eternity. Tell me how that's better then Christianity? Even if it is the extremist view, it's not uncommon, or we wouldn't have had 9/11. No he IS he in the quran as well. The christian god does not own the trademark of "He".:|For a muslim allah is the He.
WTF? I am as anti Islam as they get but it sure as hell doesnt support suicide bombing in any way. Why dont you bother researching a little? Even the extremist most interpretations of the quran DO NOT advocate suicide bombing.
And how is my statement any more baseless than yours? What's your base for claiming the bible's superiority over the quran?
Then who attacked us in September of 2001? Even if it's not in the Koran, there are those who believe it is. Your statement was baseless because you were merely saying something sarcastically to spite me.Then who attacked us in September of 2001? Even if it's not in the Koran, there are those who believe it is. Your statement was baseless because you were merely saying something sarcastically to spite me. mariostar0001Since when was the misinterpretation of something the problem of the interpreted and not the interpretor?:|
And we dont really know if those people actually believe or simply have ulterior motives behind everything. You know the ones who are running these operations dont blow themselves up but use other people to do so. They could definitely not actually be muslims for all we know. The ones who are the suicide bombers are simply the victims of mental torture and abuse...
And as far as 9\11 is concerned, I believe we may never really know what the real truth was...
And doesnt your god commit genocide on humans? Why can god "do it" and it's all cool but if he "orders" it then it's not?
He thought that it would appear and it did, He was and is in charge of everything and decides how all things work, He decided it would happen and it did. mariostar0001
That really doesn't explain... anything. :?
[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="mariostar0001"]I say that God is more likely to have been around than matter because matter is incapable of existing forever without degrading into not existing, matter left alone will fall apart unless taken care of.mariostar0001
You've said this a few times now and I'm wondering what your reasoning behind it is. I think you're perhaps invoking the second law of thermodynamics, am I correct?
If you are then you need to also look at the first law of thermodynamics.
You're right about that, I always forget to look it up. By the way, how come you have the same sig as the leader of the Christian Union?Curlyfrii? He has a totally different sig to me. Maybe you mean the little green tag besides my username? That's just the leaderbadge.
Anyways the first law of thermodynamics is about the conservation of energy. It states that energy does not come into or out of existence but can be transformed into different states (one such state being matter). So you cannot invoke the second law of thermodynamics to claim that matter must disappear from existence after a certain period of time when the first law of thermodynamics denies this.
I suppose you were trying to say that if the universe as we see it now had existed for ever back into the past then by now it would have reached a maximum level of entropy and life, motion and work etc wouldn't occur. That's true but the universe hasn't always existed as we see it. 14 billion years ago the universe existed as a singularity, a drastically different state to now, and I'm not terribly sure whether or not it would be considered a thermodynamic system.
[QUOTE="mariostar0001"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="mariostar0001"]I say that God is more likely to have been around than matter because matter is incapable of existing forever without degrading into not existing, matter left alone will fall apart unless taken care of.domatron23
You've said this a few times now and I'm wondering what your reasoning behind it is. I think you're perhaps invoking the second law of thermodynamics, am I correct?
If you are then you need to also look at the first law of thermodynamics.
You're right about that, I always forget to look it up. By the way, how come you have the same sig as the leader of the Christian Union?Curlyfrii? He has a totally different sig to me. Maybe you mean the little green tag besides my username? That's just the leaderbadge.
Anyways the first law of thermodynamics is about the conservation of energy. It states that energy does not come into or out of existence but can be transformed into different states (one such state being matter). So you cannot invoke the second law of thermodynamics to claim that matter must disappear from existence after a certain period of time when the first law of thermodynamics denies this.
I suppose you were trying to say that if the universe as we see it now had existed for ever back into the past then by now it would have reached a maximum level of entropy and life, motion and work etc wouldn't occur. That's true but the universe hasn't always existed as we see it. 14 billion years ago the universe existed as a singularity, a drastically different state to now, and I'm not terribly sure whether or not it would be considered a thermodynamic system.
If matter could not disappear into nothing, how could it appear from nothing? And the part about the Atheist union in your sig is identical, word for word, with curlyfri's. And how could natural laws change over time?[QUOTE="mariostar0001"]He thought that it would appear and it did, He was and is in charge of everything and decides how all things work, He decided it would happen and it did. foxhound_fox
That really doesn't explain... anything. :?Actually it does, if you are in charge of a town you can use your authority to have a house built in a portion of the town. God is in charge of all things, He can do what He wants in this universe, except that He could build the universe Himself instead of having another person or group of people do it.
Since when was the misinterpretation of something the problem of the interpreted and not the interpretor?:|[QUOTE="mariostar0001"]Then who attacked us in September of 2001? Even if it's not in the Koran, there are those who believe it is. Your statement was baseless because you were merely saying something sarcastically to spite me. Gambler_3
And we dont really know if those people actually believe or simply have ulterior motives behind everything. You know the ones who are running these operations dont blow themselves up but use other people to do so. They could definitely not actually be muslims for all we know. The ones who are the suicide bombers are simply the victims of mental torture and abuse...
And as far as 9\11 is concerned, I believe we may never really know what the real truth was...
And doesnt your god commit genocide on humans? Why can god "do it" and it's all cool but if he "orders" it then it's not?
He doesn't order humans to commit genocide, that is what they believe they are told to do by their god. And if by God committing genocide you are referring to acts in the Bible such as the flood, that was about the sinfulness of men who would not repent of their evil, plus they were warned of their coming doom, but refused to listen because they were entrenched in their ways, they had gone so far they refused to listen to God.[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]Since when was the misinterpretation of something the problem of the interpreted and not the interpretor?:|[QUOTE="mariostar0001"]Then who attacked us in September of 2001? Even if it's not in the Koran, there are those who believe it is. Your statement was baseless because you were merely saying something sarcastically to spite me. mariostar0001
And we dont really know if those people actually believe or simply have ulterior motives behind everything. You know the ones who are running these operations dont blow themselves up but use other people to do so. They could definitely not actually be muslims for all we know. The ones who are the suicide bombers are simply the victims of mental torture and abuse...
And as far as 9\11 is concerned, I believe we may never really know what the real truth was...
And doesnt your god commit genocide on humans? Why can god "do it" and it's all cool but if he "orders" it then it's not?
He doesn't order humans to commit genocide, that is what they believe they are told to do by their god. And if by God committing genocide you are referring to acts in the Bible such as the flood, that was about the sinfulness of men who would not repent of their evil, plus they were warned of their coming doom, but refused to listen because they were entrenched in their ways, they had gone so far they refused to listen to God. What "sinful" ways warranted a genocide?:roll:Letme guess, "not believing in god" "doing sexual things at your will" ah sure everyone who does that needs to be killed.:lol:
And god didnt warn anybody lol, he sends people to warn as if it's written on someone's face that they arent lying.
He doesn't order humans to commit genocide, that is what they believe they are told to do by their god. And if by God committing genocide you are referring to acts in the Bible such as the flood, that was about the sinfulness of men who would not repent of their evil, plus they were warned of their coming doom, but refused to listen because they were entrenched in their ways, they had gone so far they refused to listen to God. mariostar0001
What sin did every single firstborn Egyptian child commit?
[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="mariostar0001"]You're right about that, I always forget to look it up. By the way, how come you have the same sig as the leader of the Christian Union? mariostar0001
Curlyfrii? He has a totally different sig to me. Maybe you mean the little green tag besides my username? That's just the leaderbadge.
Anyways the first law of thermodynamics is about the conservation of energy. It states that energy does not come into or out of existence but can be transformed into different states (one such state being matter). So you cannot invoke the second law of thermodynamics to claim that matter must disappear from existence after a certain period of time when the first law of thermodynamics denies this.
I suppose you were trying to say that if the universe as we see it now had existed for ever back into the past then by now it would have reached a maximum level of entropy and life, motion and work etc wouldn't occur. That's true but the universe hasn't always existed as we see it. 14 billion years ago the universe existed as a singularity, a drastically different state to now, and I'm not terribly sure whether or not it would be considered a thermodynamic system.
If matter could not disappear into nothing, how could it appear from nothing?It couldn't. This is why I asked you to look at the first law of thermodynamics before, it explicitly prohibits either the creation or destruction of energy into or from nothing. Matter didn't materialize out of nowhere it simply transformed from a different pre-existing state.
And the part about the Atheist union in your sig is identical, word for word, with curlyfri's.mariostar0001
I've checked twice now and I honestly can't see it on curlyfrii's sig. Why on earth would he have a sig advertising the Atheism Union and implying that theism is unreasonable and irrational though? Perhaps he put it on there mockingly and then took it down after a short while. I dunno.
And how could natural laws change over time?mariostar0001
I didn't say that the laws of thermodynamics change over time, just that they may not apply to a singularity in the way that we understand them.
The Egyptians sinned by denying God and worshiping idols, as well as enslaving the Jews. The people before the flood sinned by denying God and worshiping themselves, which caused immorality such as widespread murder of each other, as well as sexual immorality. mariostar0001
That doesn't answer the question.
What sin did every Egyptian firstborn commit? Â If God is indeed not a respecter of persons, then what did they do, specifically, to deserve death?
[QUOTE="mariostar0001"]The Egyptians sinned by denying God and worshiping idols, as well as enslaving the Jews. The people before the flood sinned by denying God and worshiping themselves, which caused immorality such as widespread murder of each other, as well as sexual immorality. GabuEx
That doesn't answer the question.
What sin did every Egyptian firstborn commit? Â If God is indeed not a respecter of persons, then what did they do, specifically, to deserve death?
It wasn't the sin that the firstborns committed, it was two things: The sins committed by all Egyptians in denying God, and that the firstborns dying was the only way that Pharaoh would believe that God had something against him, since nine other plagues had done nothing to change his mind (Everything from dead cattle to boils to water becoming blood). The firstborns were all killed because Pharaoh refused to listen to anything else and continued to keep the Israelites in bondage.[QUOTE="mariostar0001"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="mariostar0001"]You're right about that, I always forget to look it up. By the way, how come you have the same sig as the leader of the Christian Union? domatron23
Curlyfrii? He has a totally different sig to me. Maybe you mean the little green tag besides my username? That's just the leaderbadge.
Anyways the first law of thermodynamics is about the conservation of energy. It states that energy does not come into or out of existence but can be transformed into different states (one such state being matter). So you cannot invoke the second law of thermodynamics to claim that matter must disappear from existence after a certain period of time when the first law of thermodynamics denies this.
I suppose you were trying to say that if the universe as we see it now had existed for ever back into the past then by now it would have reached a maximum level of entropy and life, motion and work etc wouldn't occur. That's true but the universe hasn't always existed as we see it. 14 billion years ago the universe existed as a singularity, a drastically different state to now, and I'm not terribly sure whether or not it would be considered a thermodynamic system.
If matter could not disappear into nothing, how could it appear from nothing?It couldn't. This is why I asked you to look at the first law of thermodynamics before, it explicitly prohibits either the creation or destruction of energy into or from nothing. Matter didn't materialize out of nowhere it simply transformed from a different pre-existing state.
And the part about the Atheist union in your sig is identical, word for word, with curlyfri's.mariostar0001
I've checked twice now and I honestly can't see it on curlyfrii's sig. Why on earth would he have a sig advertising the Atheism Union and implying that theism is unreasonable and irrational though? Perhaps he put it on there mockingly and then took it down after a short while. I dunno.
And how could natural laws change over time?mariostar0001
I didn't say that the laws of thermodynamics change over time, just that they may not apply to a singularity in the way that we understand them.
If matter didn't come from nowhere than it had to have always existed, except then it couldn't have done anything because it would have no energy to do anything, even assuming it could do anything without anyone to guide it. And we have seen no evidence that there could be a singularity that ignores the law of thermodynamics, the only thing ever seen is the yet to be proved big bang and evolution. And maybe the sig did change, I haven't checked in a day or so.[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="mariostar0001"]The Egyptians sinned by denying God and worshiping idols, as well as enslaving the Jews. The people before the flood sinned by denying God and worshiping themselves, which caused immorality such as widespread murder of each other, as well as sexual immorality. mariostar0001
That doesn't answer the question.
What sin did every Egyptian firstborn commit? Â If God is indeed not a respecter of persons, then what did they do, specifically, to deserve death?
It wasn't the sin that the firstborns committed, it was two things: The sins committed by all Egyptians in denying God, and that the firstborns dying was the only way that Pharaoh would believe that God had something against him, since nine other plagues had done nothing to change his mind (Everything from dead cattle to boils to water becoming blood). The firstborns were all killed because Pharaoh refused to listen to anything else and continued to keep the Israelites in bondage. Why couldnt god show his omnipotence to pharoah in any other way? WTF are you really saying it is ok to kill babies just cuz pharoah was too important and god too stupid?:?[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="mariostar0001"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="mariostar0001"]You're right about that, I always forget to look it up. By the way, how come you have the same sig as the leader of the Christian Union? mariostar0001
Curlyfrii? He has a totally different sig to me. Maybe you mean the little green tag besides my username? That's just the leaderbadge.
Anyways the first law of thermodynamics is about the conservation of energy. It states that energy does not come into or out of existence but can be transformed into different states (one such state being matter). So you cannot invoke the second law of thermodynamics to claim that matter must disappear from existence after a certain period of time when the first law of thermodynamics denies this.
I suppose you were trying to say that if the universe as we see it now had existed for ever back into the past then by now it would have reached a maximum level of entropy and life, motion and work etc wouldn't occur. That's true but the universe hasn't always existed as we see it. 14 billion years ago the universe existed as a singularity, a drastically different state to now, and I'm not terribly sure whether or not it would be considered a thermodynamic system.
If matter could not disappear into nothing, how could it appear from nothing?It couldn't. This is why I asked you to look at the first law of thermodynamics before, it explicitly prohibits either the creation or destruction of energy into or from nothing. Matter didn't materialize out of nowhere it simply transformed from a different pre-existing state.
And the part about the Atheist union in your sig is identical, word for word, with curlyfri's.mariostar0001
I've checked twice now and I honestly can't see it on curlyfrii's sig. Why on earth would he have a sig advertising the Atheism Union and implying that theism is unreasonable and irrational though? Perhaps he put it on there mockingly and then took it down after a short while. I dunno.
And how could natural laws change over time?mariostar0001
I didn't say that the laws of thermodynamics change over time, just that they may not apply to a singularity in the way that we understand them.
If matter didn't come from nowhere than it had to have always existed, except then it couldn't have done anything because it would have no energy to do anything, even assuming it could do anything without anyone to guide it. And we have seen no evidence that there could be a singularity that ignores the law of thermodynamics, the only thing ever seen is the yet to be proved big bang and evolution. And maybe the sig did change, I haven't checked in a day or so. Oh dear!Anyways there is alot more evidence for these things than there would ever be about your non-existent god!!
It wasn't the sin that the firstborns committed, it was two things: The sins committed by all Egyptians in denying God, and that the firstborns dying was the only way that Pharaoh would believe that God had something against him, since nine other plagues had done nothing to change his mind (Everything from dead cattle to boils to water becoming blood). The firstborns were all killed because Pharaoh refused to listen to anything else and continued to keep the Israelites in bondage. mariostar0001
I don't know if you're understanding the point of this line of questions.
Paul tells us in Romans 2:9-11 that, "There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism."Â In other words, the only criteria for the treatment that one receives from God is directly based on the person's soul, not the person's status in life or any other such thing that concerns only humans.
We are further told that God "do(es) not change." (Malachi 3:6)Â In other words, if God is not a respecter of persons, then God has never been and will never be a respecter of persons.
Yet here we are told that God killed every firstborn in Egypt, and yet did not kill every other Egyptian, for no sin committed by the firstborn and only the firstborn, but rather for sins committed by others who did not receive the same fate. In other words, God killed the firstborn because of their human status, not because of what they specifically had done.
So, the obvious question arises, then: is it not true that God is not a respecter of persons, or is it not true that God does not change? These are mutually exclusive propositions; they cannot both be accepted at the same time.
This is not even mentioning the fact that Pharaoh refused to listen because God specifically prevented him from listening (Exodus 4:21, among others), either.
[QUOTE="mariostar0001"][QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="mariostar0001"]The Egyptians sinned by denying God and worshiping idols, as well as enslaving the Jews. The people before the flood sinned by denying God and worshiping themselves, which caused immorality such as widespread murder of each other, as well as sexual immorality. Gambler_3
That doesn't answer the question.
What sin did every Egyptian firstborn commit? Â If God is indeed not a respecter of persons, then what did they do, specifically, to deserve death?
It wasn't the sin that the firstborns committed, it was two things: The sins committed by all Egyptians in denying God, and that the firstborns dying was the only way that Pharaoh would believe that God had something against him, since nine other plagues had done nothing to change his mind (Everything from dead cattle to boils to water becoming blood). The firstborns were all killed because Pharaoh refused to listen to anything else and continued to keep the Israelites in bondage. Why couldnt god show his omnipotence to pharoah in any other way? WTF are you really saying it is ok to kill babies just cuz pharoah was too important and god too stupid?:?Last I checked the firstborn son is the oldest, not the youngest. The babies were killed by Pharaoh.Please Log In to post.
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