Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom or FF16 - which one are you most interested in?

im not a victim but our children are. my 6 year old son ask me the other day if he suppose to be gay because he is white because his class mates told him that.

kids are confused today. it needs to stop.

luke skywalker could not be allowed to teach ray the force because of the modern audience.

im no victim im just stating what is happening in hollywood.

What about Fang?

FFXIV races? Are you seriously trying to pass that off as equivalency to the human race? Did you understand the conversation before jumping in? You inadvertently demonstrated my point while trying to prove the contrary.

It is interesting that you decided to pick on a game in which there is no character customization from the West to compare. If you want something comparable I provided Guild Wars 2. Just so you know, The Witcher 3 was called out on its lack of diversity. Not sure why you are using whataboutism. It doesn't make the criticism less valid just deflects. Claiming that WRPGs are far less diverse than JRPGs is absolutely comical it is beyond bizarre that you actually believe that falsehood.

1. Oh, I didn't know you played that infamous early version. If so, it's no wonder you have a bad impression of the game, haha. The fact is, as I mentioned earlier, the characters have become more and more diverse over the years. But if they still look the same to you, there is nothing more to say. Also, I'm not very familiar with GW2. How good does it get at representing culture?

2. Well, the reason I called your argument “juvenile” is because you so hypocritically use what you call a "historically problematic" issue as a tool to criticize the FF series, which is completely unrelated. I’ll explain how you miss the point in the following discussion as responding to your arguments.

As for Elvis, of course I understand the history of "whitewashing" the rock music genre that has its origins in black music. But in all seriousness, are you really so stupid as to extend this problem to the naming of summons and monsters in the FF series as well?

3. The reason I mentioned "cultural appropriation" is because even though you don't use the term, you argue in that vein, though your argument is an even more poorly interpreted version. And you have not been able to answer what harm the FF series has done to anyone specifically and in what way, nor have you been able to provide any evidence of such harm.

4. The reason I dare to say "whitish" is that white-skinned FF series characters should not necessarily be equated with actual "whites" in the real world. They are not actual representations of Englishmen, Frenchmen, or Germans who share the culture and history of their respective countries, but fictional characters from a fantasy medieval Europe imagined by their Japanese creators. For example, Cloud of FF7 is indeed white-skinned, but he does not have the same cultural or historical background as a real-life white person. The same is basically true for other white-skinned characters. That's why I used the word "whitish" in context in response to your wild attempt to equate the two.

5. If you say it is not exploitation, then fine. I only showed the number of Hindus to show that it is not.

6. Also, as with the "whitish" characters, the summons in the FF series are not necessarily the same as the actual gods. For example, FF's "Shiva" is not a copy of the actual Indian mythological god of destruction, "Siva." Though its name may allude to "Siva", it was completely reimagined as a Summon with the attribute of ice power (perhaps a play on the English word "shiver"), and its design is completely different.

Also, Hinduism does not exist in the FF world, so of course such religious references are not included in the lore at all. It should be called a parody or reference, not a misrepresentation. Again, tell me specifically how Hindus were harmed by this.

7. The ancient myths can generally be considered as the historical heritage of mankind as a whole. Of course, they certainly belong to each culture in their origin. But there is no rule that says that one should not freely refer to them, except for exploitative purposes, as I just explained with the Native American example of "cultural appropriation".

But let's be specific here. Actually, there are not many references to African culutres in the FF series. Ninki Nanka and Kongomato, which you mentioned, are among the few examples. They are certainly believed to be imaginary creatures in parts of Africa. However, they are not objects of belief, nor do they have any significant cultural background.

Again, what harm is done to the natives of Africa by using their names for monsters in FF games? Who in Africa is complaining anyway? Tell me the specific "harm", not abstract arguments like "because white people used to exploit them, blah-blah-blah".

8. Well, indeed, as you have so desperately tried to explain, the deprivation of Africa and Asia was done by Westerners. Yes, they colonized many of these countries and committed terrible depredations against their people, resources, and cultures. No one denies that.

But again, we should not equate the naming of monsters in FF with the completely unrelated evil of the cultural plundering of Africa and Asia by Westerners. The former is just a harmless video game; the latter is a major historical crime with real damage and victims.

Btw, speaking of Africa, do you know why there are as many as 54 countries? It is mainly the result of the arbitrary division and governance by Western colonizers in the 19th and early 20th centuries. There were never that many countries in Africa to begin with. I say this because you seem to be using "54 countries" as if it were a number that represents the cultural diversity of Africa without being aware of it.

Back to the topic and the "misrepresentation of culture" thing, do you really think that there are idiots in this world who think that just because they are summoned by a "white man" in a video game that the summoned beast is from the west? Or that there are enemies named after African mythology without reference that appear in a video game and think they belong to another culture? Why don't you just admit that you're just making up false "harms" to attack the FF series that you don't like?

9. Well, I gave that example about black music to show the emptiness of your argument. In fact you can't even answer that simple question properly because you know you are talking nonsense.

10. Well, let's face it, Pedro. This is what happened. You were desperately looking for material to criticize the FF series for whatever reason. You found an argument somewhere on the Internet that white people in this game summon or fight gods and monsters from non-Western mythology, and that their origins are not mentioned.

You, or the forum where you found it, probably thought you could use this to problematize the game as having content that affirms the white man's dispossession of other cultures. So you desperately talk about the exploitation of Africa/Asia by the West.

11. But let's be real, this has nothing to do with the FF series directly, and you yourself know very well that neither Indians nor Africans are complaining about this game, because the only ones complaining are you and some FF haters who made up the problem themselves.

12. How juvenile and hypocritical.

I love the "calm down" strategy, it is so textbook for folks like you to use it.😎

Again, you should calm down, Pedro, haha.

Fang is a brown woman wearing a saree. Go figure.

Even most of the humans look brown in those FFXIV pictures, let alone the non-human races. Your point is baseless.

Mainline FF games also lack character customization, just like The Witcher games. So it's an apt comparison. The most famous FF game, FFVII, has a fairly diverse cast of main characters (Asian, black, white). The most famous Witcher game, TW3, has a cast of exclusively white main characters. And yes, WRPGs have historically been far less diverse than JRPGs. But then again, it's been years since I've last played a WRPG, so not sure if the genre has improved in that regard.

@Pedro:

I suggest you look up what Indian women look like. Many Indian women have the same shade of brown as Fang, and many are even lighter (especially Bollywood actresses). And she's clearly wearing a saree... Again, go look that up, if you don't know what that is. She's clearly intended to represent an Indian woman, debunking your claim about people from Hindu culture never being represented in FF.

Out of the humans in those FFXIV screenshots, at least half of them look brown, debunking your claim about no non-white humans in FFXIV... Serious question: Do all brown and Asian people look "white" to you? You do realize that black and white aren't the only human skin tones in this world, right?

I just compared FFVII to TW3, both the most famous games from their respective genres. Out of the two, FFVII is far more diverse than TW3. That's not even debatable.

The last WRPGs I've played are The Witcher games. If there are WRPGs since then that are more diverse, feel free to let me know. But that doesn't negate my point. If we're talking all of RPG history, then WRPGs have been way less diverse than JRPGs.

Well this is interesting. Here is a factoid. I am 45% Indian, 50% of my family is Indian. Now you are trying to educate me on what Indian people look like?🤭 Let me take wild guess that you are a white man from the US. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. The fact that you use Bollywood as a reference further demonstrates that you really don't know what you are talking about. Feel free to educate yourself on India and skin bleaching in addition to the history behind such practices. It may help with understanding.

There only two humans in that screenshot per gender generated from a character creator. You know, the feature that allows you to pick and choose what you character looks like. That is your proof. User made characters. And you follow up that with trying to educate a multiracial person about skin tones.🤣 The silliness.

We went from FFXIV to FFVII but the western game of reference remains the same. Interesting that you decided not to include RPGs like FallOut, Outer Worlds, Mass Effect.🤔

I suggest that you are avoid making statements that is based on ignorance.

Interesting. I assumed you were a white man from the US, so must be ignorant about Indian culture. But no, I'm not a white man from the US either. I'm from the UK, and ethnically somewhat similar to you. So I'm more than familiar with Indian culture. But the issue you're talking about is colourism, which you're conflating with racism.

If you know you can select the skin colour in FFXIV, then why were you claiming all the humans are white?

Because Final Fantasy and Witcher are the most famous games in their respective genres. But sure, I'll give you Mass Effect, though that's an exception. As for Fallout, the player character is user-generated, so doesn't count if FFXIV user-generated characters don't count either.

Your statements about the FF series sound pretty ignorant to me. I'm guessing you've only played like one or two FF games?

@Pedro:

I suggest you look up what Indian women look like. Many Indian women have the same shade of brown as Fang, and many are even lighter (especially Bollywood actresses). And she's clearly wearing a saree... Again, go look that up, if you don't know what that is. She's clearly intended to represent an Indian woman, debunking your claim about people from Hindu culture never being represented in FF.

Out of the humans in those FFXIV screenshots, at least half of them look brown, debunking your claim about no non-white humans in FFXIV... Serious question: Do all brown and Asian people look "white" to you? You do realize that black and white aren't the only human skin tones in this world, right?

I just compared FFVII to TW3, both the most famous games from their respective genres. Out of the two, FFVII is far more diverse than TW3. That's not even debatable.

The last WRPGs I've played are The Witcher games. If there are WRPGs since then that are more diverse, feel free to let me know. But that doesn't negate my point. If we're talking all of RPG history, then WRPGs have been way less diverse than JRPGs.

Never mentioned anything about race. That is something you introduced.

Never stated that ALL HUMANS are white in FFXIV. Another thing you introduced.

Are you understanding the discussion? Diversity in the focal characters. I didn't pick games based on whether you can customize your characters but the core cast.

That is incorrect.

They are not whitish, they are straight up white despite origins not being white.

@st_monica: Final Fantasy XIV focal characters all look like carbon copies of each other. Lets not pretend that he has a history of creating diverse characters or that JPRG "fantasy" games are known for being diverse.

Disco Elysium. Fallout. Elder's Scrolls, Mass Effect, Cyberpunk 2077, Dragon Age all were diverse in its human cast.

Western RPGs are FAR more diverse in their casts than JRPGs and its not even close.

Bruv, you were talking about race this whole time before I entered the debate.

It sure sounds like you did claim such a thing:

Then what exactly do you mean by "diverse" if not skin colour?

What FF games have you played?

@onesiphorus: but FF16 is not turned based tho?

In the last decade or so, there has been more of a push for diversity in WRPGs. But there was very little diversity in WRPGs prior to that. If you compare older WRPGs with older JRPGs, then the WRPGs were far less diverse than the JRPGs.

And you still haven't addressed my point about Witcher. The same people attacking FFXVI and Kingdom Come Deliverence never had the same heat for Witcher.

He never said that, but I remember Kotaku quoting him out of context to mislead us that way.

Sure, he says that he featured medieval Europe in the "design concept" of the game, but if you read the full IGN interview, he never says that's why there's no racial diversity, but for a completely different reason.

He explains in that interview that the lack of racial diversity was rather necessary for the setting of their story. Here is the quote:

"Our design concept from the earliest stages of development has always heavily featured medieval Europe, incorporating historical, cultural, political, and anthropological standards that were prevalent at the time. When deciding on a setting that was best suited to the story we wanted to tell — the story of a land beset by the Blight — we felt that rather than create something on a global scale, it was necessary to limit the scope to a single landmass — one geographically and culturally isolated from the rest of the world in an age without airplanes, television, or telephones.

Due to the underlying geographical, technological, and geopolitical constraints of this setting, Valisthea was never going to realistically be as diverse as say a modern-day Earth...or even Final Fantasy XIV that has an entire planet (and moon) worth of nations, races, and cultures at its disposal. The isolated nature of this realm, however, does end up playing a large part in the story and is one of the reasons Valisthea’s fate is tied to the rest of the world.”

https://www.ign.com/articles/final-fantasy-16-square-enix-interview-lore

As you can read this, the reason for the lack of racial diversity in FF16 is that they wanted to portray the story of the land isolated from the outside world, and he never meant that there were no people of color in medieval Europe.

Rated to this, Kotaku also misinterprets his statement, "The story we are telling is fantasy, yes, but it is also rooted in reality," to imply that he is claiming that there were no black people in medieval Europe. That is absolutely ridiculous.

If you read it correctly, it is "rooted in reality" in that it features medieval Europe in its "design concept." However, the story it actually tells is a "fantasy," a tale of a land isolated from the outside world and lacking diversity due to the various factors mentioned above interfview. Therefore, he says "The story we are telling is fantasy, but it is also rooted in reality" and there is no contradiction there.

It's a shame, however, that clickbait sites like Kotaku try so hard to mislead us by twisting his statements, and that ignorant drama-loving people believe them without even reading the full interview.

Not to mention, Yoshi P is also the producer/director of FF14, where he portrays a variety of races (and gender), including skin color and physical characteristics, making it pretty obvious that he is a man who values diversity. Square Enix has also released Forspoken, a game featuring an African-American woman. Yoshi P himself is an Asian man, considered by some to be a "person of color," and has never made any comments implying racism.

Come to think of it, games like TW3 and Kingdom Come: Deliverance, which also feature medieval European themes, have been accused of the same "lack of racial diversity". Of course, racial inclusion is desirable, and I would like to see it more in video games. But at the same time, as long as there is no malicious intent, I think it is acceptable to limit the racial diversity in a game like FF16 in order to deliver the story that the creators wants to tell.

1. So, you made a false assumption and now you are making another false assumption with my experience with the game. 🤔I gave you a reference, you are free to take the time to validate it. I am not doing your homework.

2. So juvenile is hypocritical? You are aware that those two words are not related. Now you are claiming using historically problematic behavior is hypocritical all because you are unable to handle criticism of a game that has routinely used other cultures without representation of the people from said cultures. Demonstrating the harm of using other groups' cultures without representation is stupid because I refer to something that is more common to you. So, instead of understanding the context and the reference in relation to the conversation you draw a nonsensical conclusion.🤷🏽‍♂️

3. In order to misuse a term, the term needs to be used. Super simple concept. Please note the difference.

4. Translation "Despite the characters being blatantly white, I would come up with the most asinine logic to detract from the fact that they are white by redefining the idea. "

5. Admitting your error. 👍🏽

6. Intentional missing the point to defend the game's use of cultures without representing the people of said culture.

7. You keep asking what harm is done by directly taking ideas from other cultures and not representing the people. This has been noted in my very first comment to you.

"The harm it causes is that it makes an association of multi-cultural ideas to a specific group of people, perpetuating ideas that are already false and problematic."

8. You continue to parade ignorance/intentionally misrepresent human behavior and trivialize the influence of media on society. People are exposed to ideas in books, film, imagery, music, video games, and oral communication. What is pushed in these interactions has a direct impact on the population's perception of specific groups. It is a well-documented part of human history and interaction. You are attempting to undermine this fact with falsehood. It is clear that you don't appreciate the criticism because, like most people who are unable to detach themselves from the content they like, you take the criticism against the game as a direct attack on you. This is why this is less of an objective discussion of the product and more of an emotional defense of yourself. Which you will obviously deny.

9. You just used a nonsensical example. Don't worry it is a common strategy in disingenuous discussions.

10. More assusmptions. I teach world mythology, I am knowledgeable of human history and the cause-and-effect cultural exchanges. It is clear that you are projecting the methods by which you acquire ideas or draw conclusions. Me pointing out the issues I have with the game was viewed as a direct attack on you because you have a strong emotional connection with the game. This is the reason you feel obligated to defend it with a barrage of ill-thought counterarguments and assumptions.

11. What makes you believe that statement is true? What is more interesting is that you directly undermined the statement by saying even if it is true, they are just haters.

12. Finally you know that these words are different.

"There is not much that can be discussed if you are not versed on the topic. Feel free to fall back on silly deflections and poorly thought-out counters. 🤷🏽‍♀️"

Also, FFXVI clearly has brown Middle-Eastern-looking townspeople in the desert town shown in this gameplay demo:

No, WRPGs were diverse. See the early Fallout games, the Redguard in Elder Scrolls, key characters in KOTOR, Bloodlines, and Deus Ex, and of course that xuanhuan game Bioware made.

It wasn't just character creator.

And if that is true than Yoshi P shouldn't have opened his mouth.

Are you seriously trying to claim that your son was considered gay because he was white?😂

You play the victim card in your last comment and now you are retracting from it while pushing more nonsense. Well, at least that is progress.🤷🏽

@texasgoldrush: Is Sword and Fairy good?