Xbox Scarlett APU Die Shot Analysis: Die Size Estimated at 401 mm2

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ronvalencia

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#1  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 28477 Posts

calculations put the Xbox Scarlett APU at roughly 401mm², which is an increase of almost 42mm² over the Xbox Scorpio chip at 359mm²

XSX APU is the world's largest single chip for a game console.

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lundy86_4

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#2 lundy86_4
Member since 2003 • 54664 Posts

Fun...

This is gonna be a "Ronbot insulting people" thread.

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BlackShirt20

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#3 BlackShirt20
Member since 2005 • 1345 Posts

@ronvalencia: DF confirmed this a week ago. They said, this new console is a absolute beast.

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pyro1245

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#4 pyro1245
Member since 2003 • 5751 Posts

Meanwhile in the world of machine learning.....

https://singularityhub.com/2019/08/26/this-giant-ai-chip-is-the-size-of-an-ipad-and-holds-1-2-trillion-transistors/

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ronvalencia

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#5 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 28477 Posts

@pyro1245 said:

Meanwhile in the world of machine learning.....

https://singularityhub.com/2019/08/26/this-giant-ai-chip-is-the-size-of-an-ipad-and-holds-1-2-trillion-transistors/

Does it run Crysis?

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pyro1245

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#6 pyro1245
Member since 2003 • 5751 Posts

@ronvalencia said:
@pyro1245 said:

Meanwhile in the world of machine learning.....

https://singularityhub.com/2019/08/26/this-giant-ai-chip-is-the-size-of-an-ipad-and-holds-1-2-trillion-transistors/

Does it run Crysis?

Probably not, but perhaps in the future it will be programming a new Crysis :P

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Archangel3371

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#7 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 29225 Posts

My hype for the Xbox Series X grows with each passing day. I’m so pumped to play Halo: Infinite on this thing on day one. It’s going to be glorious. 😁

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Random_Matt

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#8 Random_Matt
Member since 2013 • 4624 Posts

Great I guess.

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xantufrog

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#9 xantufrog  Moderator
Member since 2013 • 12146 Posts

Yuuuuuuuge

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DaVillain-

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#10 DaVillain-  Moderator
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@Archangel3371 said:

My hype for the Xbox Series X grows with each passing day. I’m so pumped to play Halo: Infinite on this thing on day one. It’s going to be glorious. 😁

Glad to hear you will have fun with Xbox Series X (or Xbox whichever you prefer) and yeah, I'm also hype to play Halo Infinite as well on my PC😊

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DrLostRib

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#11 DrLostRib
Member since 2017 • 5185 Posts

Aww yeah! Welcome to mm² Wars!

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Archangel3371

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#12 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 29225 Posts

@davillain-: It should make for a very enjoyable day for sure.

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tormentos

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#13 tormentos
Member since 2003 • 29560 Posts

@ronvalencia:

Yeah I read on resetera that the estimates should be taken with a grain of salt,and several other ones put it as a smaller chip 365nm I think.

But without knowing what is inside the soc is a loss cause.

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hrt_rulz01

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#14 hrt_rulz01
Member since 2006 • 19712 Posts

X gonna give it to ya!

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kuu2

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#15 kuu2
Member since 2005 • 11190 Posts

Can't wait for XSeX

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HitmanActual

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#16 HitmanActual
Member since 2013 • 1106 Posts

XBox Series Beast confirmed.

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BlackShirt20

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#17  Edited By BlackShirt20
Member since 2005 • 1345 Posts

@tormentos: Nervous huh? Lol

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tormentos

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#18 tormentos
Member since 2003 • 29560 Posts

@BlackShirt20 said:

@tormentos: Nervous huh? Lol

Oh sure i will not be able to sleep for 1000 years now.

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Archangel3371

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#19 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 29225 Posts

@hrt_rulz01: Nice one. 😅

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BlackShirt20

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#20 BlackShirt20
Member since 2005 • 1345 Posts

@tormentos: Just saying, you denied everything so far. You’re still in denial. But everything DF reported last week is happening.

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tormentos

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#21 tormentos
Member since 2003 • 29560 Posts

@BlackShirt20 said:

@tormentos: Just saying, you denied everything so far. You’re still in denial. But everything DF reported last week is happening.

I havent deny anything dude.

DF didn't confirm 12TF either MS hasn't either.

And you don't need 12TF to double the xbox one X.

Im just saying curve your expectations so you don't look bad latter on play it safe.

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ronvalencia

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#22 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 28477 Posts

Back on topic about hardware NOT about forum members.

Comparsion from NAVI 10 XT.

NAVI 10 XT die shows two Shader Engines.

Larger RDNA GPU can fit inside 401 mm2 chip area budget.

Like X1X GPU config, Microsoft approach is larger CU count with lower clock speed to reach the target TFLOPS.

Also, factor in https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-series-x-almost-double-size-xbox-one-x for TDP budget estimate.

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ronvalencia

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#23  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 28477 Posts

@tormentos said:

@ronvalencia:

Yeah I read on resetera that the estimates should be taken with a grain of salt,and several other ones put it as a smaller chip 365nm I think.

But without knowing what is inside the soc is a loss cause.

The estimate is based on tiny Ceramic Chip Capacitors i.e. little rectangle items.

WhyCry @Videocardz done the image processing.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ps5-and-xbox-series-speculation-launch-thread-ot9-for-flops-sake.162235/page-144#post-28000929

Using the Ryzen 3000 capacitors I also get 23.15 x 17.28 = ~400 mm².

DukeBlueBall has 365nm from https://www.resetera.com/threads/ps5-and-xbox-series-speculation-launch-thread-ot9-for-flops-sake.162235/page-177#post-28014040

I later revised it down to 360-370mm2 using what ever rounding error i can because I refused to believe that the Xsx chip was this much of a monster.

From https://www.resetera.com/threads/ps5-and-xbox-series-speculation-launch-thread-ot9-for-flops-sake.162235/page-174#post-28011984

Appears to be 380-400 range given the possibility for error in an analysis like this.

-----------

XSX APU has 148 Ceramic Chip Capacitors

X1X APU has 93 Ceramic Chip Capacitors

XSX has 59 percent increase from X1X with Ceramic Chip Capacitors

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#26  Edited By mowgly1
Member since 2017 • 1254 Posts

@tormentos said:

@ronvalencia:

Yeah I read on resetera that the estimates should be taken with a grain of salt,and several other ones put it as a smaller chip 365nm I think.

But without knowing what is inside the soc is a loss cause.

It's around 400. _rogame has revised the first measures he got from Scarlett's chip, from 347mm to 407mm

Some get 400, some close to 400. WCCFTECH got also around 400.

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#27 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 35408 Posts

Good stuff, Captain Ron.... lol :P

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PC_Rocks

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#28 PC_Rocks
Member since 2018 • 2884 Posts

8K!!!

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mrbojangles25

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#29 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 45413 Posts

So I am confused; is bigger better, or smaller better?

They keep going smaller on GPU and CPU it seems like and that's desirable.

Or is this a different measurement?

@hrt_rulz01 said:

X gonna give it to ya!

You win the forum game today hahhaa

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Grey_Eyed_Elf

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#30  Edited By Grey_Eyed_Elf
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@mrbojangles25 said:

So I am confused; is bigger better, or smaller better?

They keep going smaller on GPU and CPU it seems like and that's desirable.

Or is this a different measurement?

@hrt_rulz01 said:

X gonna give it to ya!

You win the forum game today hahhaa

Both... Bigger means more cores on it but also means hotter, more power hungry, more expensive.

Also everyone is letting the numbers get to their heads 9.2 TFLOPs vs 12 TFLOPs on the same GPU architecture is not night and day, the difference in real world performance is less than 10%.

If this thing costs $100 more than a PS5 II just don't see it selling.

Also people need to take into account that ray tracing cores will take up space on the die and will add to the heat, the die size also doesn't really indicate how many cores will be active... 56 CU rumour could have 4 or 8 CU's disabled. Who knows.

All we know for now is that the new larger and non conventional case design means its hot.

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BlackShirt20

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#31  Edited By BlackShirt20
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@Grey_Eyed_Elf: there is a reason they went with a tower like design. Gonna be a lot of cooling.

When DF broke the news of the rumored die size, they said this thing was gonna be a absolute beast. They were not joking.

You honestly believe with a better GPU, CPU that they difference between the consoles is roughly 10%? Come one man. Stop.

If the rumors are true. Which at this point seems likely, Xbox overall has a 44% increase in power between the CPU and GPU.

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/xbox-series-x-gpu.c3482

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Grey_Eyed_Elf

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#32 Grey_Eyed_Elf
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@BlackShirt20 said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: there is a reason they went with a tower like design. Gonna be a lot of cooling.

When DF broke the news of the rumored die size, they said this thing was gonna be a absolute beast. They were not joking.

You honestly believe with a better GPU, CPU that they difference between the consoles is roughly 10%? Come one man. Stop.

If the rumors are true. Which at this point seems likely, Xbox overall has a 44% increase in power between the CPU and GPU.

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/xbox-series-x-gpu.c3482

CPU?... A extra 100-300MHz won't make a difference at 4K. Also 44%?... It doesn't even have 44% more TFLOPS.

XSX 12 TFLOPS - PS5 9.2 TFLOPS = 1.8 TFLOP difference

5700 XT 9.754 TFLOPS - 5700 7.949 TFLOPS = 1.8 TFLOP difference

12% difference over 8+ games...

1.8 TFLOPs more is not a big jump and no where near 44% increase in real world. You would need the PS5 to run at 8 TFLOPs and the XSX to run at 16TFLOPS to get that level of performance difference.

10-12% difference and at 4K in most demanding games that's a extra 4-6FPS... Not night and day.

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#33 Pedro
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@Grey_Eyed_Elf: A good analysis of the marginal gains in general spanning from PC to consoles.

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BlackShirt20

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#34 BlackShirt20
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@Grey_Eyed_Elf: Stop. For the love of god. Stop.

The Xbox will have a superior CPU. Fact.

The Xbox will also have a superior GPU. Fact

You cannot take benchmarks of individual cards and say this is the difference. Especially when the builds between the two are different. One has a better CPU and GPU. One has a weaker CPU and GPU. Xbox will reach better resolution at better frames. Fact.

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#35  Edited By DragonfireXZ95
Member since 2005 • 25856 Posts

@BlackShirt20 said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: Stop. For the love of god. Stop.

The Xbox will have a superior CPU. Fact.

The Xbox will also have a superior GPU. Fact

You cannot take benchmarks of individual cards and say this is the difference. Especially when the builds between the two are different. One has a better CPU and GPU. One has a weaker CPU and GPU. Xbox will reach better resolution at better frames. Fact.

Here you are, moving the goalposts on yet another debate. You said 44%, and he was disproving that. When are you gonna take your own advice? 🤣

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#36 Fedor
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@BlackShirt20 said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: Stop. For the love of god. Stop.

The Xbox will have a superior CPU. Fact.

The Xbox will also have a superior GPU. Fact

You cannot take benchmarks of individual cards and say this is the difference. Especially when the builds between the two are different. One has a better CPU and GPU. One has a weaker CPU and GPU. Xbox will reach better resolution at better frames. Fact.

Can you show me the confirmed specs for the consoles from Sony and MS please? You clearly have more information than everyone else.

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#37 Pedro
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@BlackShirt20 said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: Stop. For the love of god. Stop.

The Xbox will have a superior CPU. Fact.

The Xbox will also have a superior GPU. Fact

You cannot take benchmarks of individual cards and say this is the difference. Especially when the builds between the two are different. One has a better CPU and GPU. One has a weaker CPU and GPU. Xbox will reach better resolution at better frames. Fact.

I corrected the minor errors in your response.

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#38 Fedor
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@Pedro said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: A good analysis of the marginal gains in general spanning from PC to consoles.

Yeah, it'd be a good measuring stick if all platforms used the same architecture.

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#39 Grey_Eyed_Elf
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@Pedro said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: A good analysis of the marginal gains in general spanning from PC to consoles.

Marginal gains is relative to what you are comparing and what you are upgrading from.

A console at 12 TFLOPs vs a Consoles at 9.2 TFLOPS on the same architecture is marginal... A 4.2 TFLOP Pro to a PS5 at 9.2 on better architecture is substantial. Not a generational leap but still substantial.

Same as PC gamers, no one is going to upgrade form a 1060 to a 1070... That 1060 user will go with a 2060 S or might even wait for a 3060 set to launch this year.

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Grey_Eyed_Elf

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#40 Grey_Eyed_Elf
Member since 2011 • 6761 Posts

@BlackShirt20 said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: Stop. For the love of god. Stop.

The Xbox will have a superior CPU. Fact.

The Xbox will also have a superior GPU. Fact

You cannot take benchmarks of individual cards and say this is the difference. Especially when the builds between the two are different. One has a better CPU and GPU. One has a weaker CPU and GPU. Xbox will reach better resolution at better frames. Fact.

Superior CPU?... At 4K gaming?...

Both CPU's are 8 core Zen 2 CPU's... By superior you mean the X1X will be 200-300MHz faster?... Yeah at 4K that doesn't make a difference. The PS5 can have a 6 Core Zen 2 CPU and the XSX will still have no advantage in gaming at 4K.

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#41  Edited By jahnee
Member since 2005 • 4033 Posts

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: Law of diminishing returns, with the extra cpu overhead the gpu becomes the bottle neck (for a while, once games are coded for zen2 it's a matter of the game). 12TF-9.2TF=2.8TF btw. 2.8/9.2×100=30% more gpu Overhead on XSX when not taking in account potential Ray Tracing ability differences. PS5 is then 76,67% of XSX power. On a 60fps XSX game that is 14fps difference (46fps ps5), for a 30fps game 7fps difference (23fps on ps5). Quite substantial indeed. But only on paper. Looking at the pro coders over at Sony Entertainment, the Playstation exclusives are bound to look more technically advanced over time due to raw talent.

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#42 BlackShirt20
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@jahnee: You’re cool.

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#43 I_P_Daily
Member since 2015 • 14063 Posts

@xantufrog said:

Yuuuuuuuge

That's what she said :)

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#44 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 37116 Posts

Absolutely incredible.

Whatever that means.

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#45  Edited By Grey_Eyed_Elf
Member since 2011 • 6761 Posts

@jahnee said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: Law of diminishing returns, with the extra cpu overhead the gpu becomes the bottle neck (for a while, once games are coded for zen2 it's a matter of the game). 12TF-9.2TF=2.8TF btw. 2.8/9.2×100=30% more gpu Overhead on XSX when not taking in account potential Ray Tracing ability differences. PS5 is then 76,67% of XSX power. On a 60fps XSX game that is 14fps difference (46fps ps5), for a 30fps game 7fps difference (23fps on ps5). Quite substantial indeed. But only on paper. Looking at the pro coders over at Sony Entertainment, the Playstation exclusives are bound to look more technically advanced over time due to raw talent.

Yeah I made a mistake on that calculation.

TLFOP difference in percentages doesn't equal to that percentage being the frame-rate difference.

So 30% more TFLOPS won't scale 1:1 with frame rates, just look at the 5700 XT and 5700 there is a 22% gap in TFLOPS yet in real world performance get 12% increase in frame-rate.

If 22% more TFLOPS gives you 12% more real world performance that's a 55% of the TFLOP difference, So 30% TFLOP difference will give you a 16.5% real world performance meaning 5FPS on a 30FPS game and 10FPS difference in a 60FPS game.

Still not substantial, the PS4 Pro and X1X had a 42% TFLOP difference.

TFLOP % is not the same as real world performance %. As you clearly know, but the user under your post is oblivious to.

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ronvalencia

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#46  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 28477 Posts

For the CPU component

From https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-7-4800h

8 core/16 thread CPU from Ryzen 7 4800H APU only has 8MB of L3.

PC Desktop Ryzen 7 3700X has 32 MB L3 cache. https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-ryzen-7-3700x

I speculate XSX's Zen 2 CPU to be cut down version.

Any comments would be welcome.

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#47 jahnee
Member since 2005 • 4033 Posts
@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:
@jahnee said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: Law of diminishing returns, with the extra cpu overhead the gpu becomes the bottle neck (for a while, once games are coded for zen2 it's a matter of the game). 12TF-9.2TF=2.8TF btw. 2.8/9.2×100=30% more gpu Overhead on XSX when not taking in account potential Ray Tracing ability differences. PS5 is then 76,67% of XSX power. On a 60fps XSX game that is 14fps difference (46fps ps5), for a 30fps game 7fps difference (23fps on ps5). Quite substantial indeed. But only on paper. Looking at the pro coders over at Sony Entertainment, the Playstation exclusives are bound to look more technically advanced over time due to raw talent.

Yeah I made a mistake on that calculation.

TLFOP difference in percentages doesn't equal to that percentage being the frame-rate difference.

So 30% more TFLOPS won't scale 1:1 with frame rates, just look at the 5700 XT and 5700 there is a 22% gap in TFLOPS yet in real world performance get 12% increase in frame-rate.

If 22% more TFLOPS gives you 12% more real world performance that's a 55% of the TFLOP difference, So 30% TFLOP difference will give you a 16.5% real world performance meaning 5FPS on a 30FPS game and 10FPS difference in a 60FPS game.

Still not substantial, the PS4 Pro and X1X had a 42% TFLOP difference.

TFLOP % is not the same as real world performance %. As you clearly know, but the user under your post is oblivious to.

Oh I see how interesting. I also guess that this generation will be the most similar and so porting games to another platform will be even easier than before.

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ronvalencia

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#48  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 28477 Posts

@mowgly1:

Digital Foundry has 405 mm2

(for your convenience)

Loading Video...

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ronvalencia

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#49  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 28477 Posts

@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:

Both... Bigger means more cores on it but also means hotter, more power hungry, more expensive.

Also everyone is letting the numbers get to their heads 9.2 TFLOPs vs 12 TFLOPs on the same GPU architecture is not night and day, the difference in real world performance is less than 10%.

If this thing costs $100 more than a PS5 II just don't see it selling.

Also people need to take into account that ray tracing cores will take up space on the die and will add to the heat, the die size also doesn't really indicate how many cores will be active... 56 CU rumour could have 4 or 8 CU's disabled. Who knows.

All we know for now is that the new larger and non conventional case design means its hot.

When comparing against PS4 Pro's 4.2 TFLOPS with 256 bit GDDR5-7000 memory bus, X1X's 6 TFLOPS GPU is backed by 384 bit GDDR5-6800 memory bus and ROPS's 2MB render cache and the resulting difference is more than 10 percent e.g. for RDR2, X1X's 4K resolution while PS4 Pro has half of 4K resolution which is double resolution pixels over PS4's version.

X1X's 6 TFLOPS involves clock speed and CU count increase.

R9-390X Hawaii XT GCN 5.9 TFLOPS can still crush both RX 470/RX-570 and PS4 Pro at 4K resolution. X1X GPU is based on Hawaii XT 44 CU design with Polaris and Vega updates.

I agree with you that pure TFLOPS arguments are nearly pointless without backing extra TFLOPS with extra memory bandwidth.

XSX's external memory bus is greater than 256 bit bus and software tiled compute programming tricks with fusion link enables data to remain in L2/L3 cache and reduce CPU's external memory access. There is programming pathway for game consoles to reduce CPU's external memory bus access.

XSX's GDDR6-14000 memory modules and memory bus greater than 256 bits (at least 320 bits bus) has been confirmed from E3 2019 reveal.

For R9-390X 44 CU market segment, AMD used RX Vega 48 for Apple.

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jahnee

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#50 jahnee
Member since 2005 • 4033 Posts

@ronvalencia said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:

Both... Bigger means more cores on it but also means hotter, more power hungry, more expensive.

Also everyone is letting the numbers get to their heads 9.2 TFLOPs vs 12 TFLOPs on the same GPU architecture is not night and day, the difference in real world performance is less than 10%.

If this thing costs $100 more than a PS5 II just don't see it selling.

Also people need to take into account that ray tracing cores will take up space on the die and will add to the heat, the die size also doesn't really indicate how many cores will be active... 56 CU rumour could have 4 or 8 CU's disabled. Who knows.

All we know for now is that the new larger and non conventional case design means its hot.

-----------------

When comparing against PS4 Pro's 4.2 TFLOPS with 256 bit GDDR5-7000 memory bus, X1X's 6 TFLOPS GPU is backed by 384 bit GDDR5-6800 memory bus and ROPS's 2MB render cache and difference between X1X and PS4 Pro is more than 10 percent.

I agree with you that pure TFLOPS arguments are nearly pointless without backing extra TFLOPS with extra memory bandwidth.

XSX's external memory bus is greater than 256 bit bus and software tiled compute programming tricks with fusion link enables data to remain in L2/L3 cache and reduce CPU's external memory access. There is programming pathway for game consoles to reduce CPU's external memory bus access.

XSX's GDDR6-14000 memory modules and memory bus greater than 256 bits has been confirmed from E3 2019 reveal.

Do you speculate the differences between the XsX and PS5 to be similar to X1X and PS4pro?